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On December 13 2011 08:13 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:59 Jimbo77 wrote:
The solution is quite simple:
*Mutas acceleration speed must be decreased by 50%.
*Mutas speed must be decresed, i'd say, by 10-15%.
*Mutas ground attack must be decreased by 30-35%
Ones mutas arise it's impossible for terran to:
1. Make drops
2. Leave base.
The absolutely same for protoss. Just sit here and hope for really good future army/base trade for you.
All the eggheads, who suggest Archon's, or Thor's or whatsoever, to counter mutas, can try by themselves to catch muta's stack, flying around your 2-3 bases, and then tell us how successful it was.
Good luck.
Thors, turrets and marines are an imperfect solution, but it's a lot better than the protoss situation. Imagine the thor had range 3, the turrets fire slower, can't be repaired and cost more and you have the protoss situation. Nerfing mutas is a poor solution in my mind. Fixing the other races weakness is by far prefereable for the simple reason that mutalisks are great fun to watch. Mutas should shut down drops in the same way vikings and pheonix should shut down drops. that's what they intended to do! Leaving base is a different issue. It should be possible to invest in some defense and then be able to push out. This IS possible against < 20 mutas, but once the muta count gets to 30+ you either have to leavel half your army behind or it's a base race and a decent zerg will place bases in teh far courners of the map. If you split your army the mutas will kill the smallest parts and then kill your base. No amount of turrets or cannons can stop 30+ mutas Giving turrets and cannons spalsh damage vs air, even as a late game upgrade, would effectively fix this. I don't know what the flow on effect of this would be, but it would certainly help the mass muta problem.
Actually Turrets splash is an amazing idea, and we saw this already in the single company.
But nerfing muta is a necessity. They should be able to kill drops, yes. But even if muta on the other edge of the map it can be at the drop place in a few seconds, just because of unbelievable speed and acceleration.
Speed must be nerfed no question here.
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just give terran the vaylkary, zerg the scourge( or replace the curruptor with the devourer) and toss the corsair end mutalisk complains
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On December 13 2011 08:38 Zergrusher wrote:
just give terran the vaylkary, zerg the scourge( or replace the curruptor with the devourer) and toss the corsair end mutalisk complains
blizzard doesnt want to evolve backwards.
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On December 13 2011 08:35 Jimbo77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:13 Kharnage wrote:On December 13 2011 07:59 Jimbo77 wrote:
The solution is quite simple:
*Mutas acceleration speed must be decreased by 50%.
*Mutas speed must be decresed, i'd say, by 10-15%.
*Mutas ground attack must be decreased by 30-35%
Ones mutas arise it's impossible for terran to:
1. Make drops
2. Leave base.
The absolutely same for protoss. Just sit here and hope for really good future army/base trade for you.
All the eggheads, who suggest Archon's, or Thor's or whatsoever, to counter mutas, can try by themselves to catch muta's stack, flying around your 2-3 bases, and then tell us how successful it was.
Good luck.
Thors, turrets and marines are an imperfect solution, but it's a lot better than the protoss situation. Imagine the thor had range 3, the turrets fire slower, can't be repaired and cost more and you have the protoss situation. Nerfing mutas is a poor solution in my mind. Fixing the other races weakness is by far prefereable for the simple reason that mutalisks are great fun to watch. Mutas should shut down drops in the same way vikings and pheonix should shut down drops. that's what they intended to do! Leaving base is a different issue. It should be possible to invest in some defense and then be able to push out. This IS possible against < 20 mutas, but once the muta count gets to 30+ you either have to leavel half your army behind or it's a base race and a decent zerg will place bases in teh far courners of the map. If you split your army the mutas will kill the smallest parts and then kill your base. No amount of turrets or cannons can stop 30+ mutas Giving turrets and cannons spalsh damage vs air, even as a late game upgrade, would effectively fix this. I don't know what the flow on effect of this would be, but it would certainly help the mass muta problem. Actually Turrets splash is an amazing idea, and we saw this already in the single company. But nerfing muta is a necessity. They should be able to kill drops, yes. But even if muta on the other edge of the map it can be at the drop place in a few seconds, just because of unbelievable speed and acceleration. Speed must be nerfed no question here.
I disagree on the speed point.
They are a 'hard' counter to drops. Once they come out your drops are suicide drop and this is exactly right. The idea is zerg 'scouts' a drop play or gets dropped and responds by getting a spire and a dozen mutas to stop those shenannigans. Nothing wrong with this at all. If you continue to do drops once there are mutas then you deserve to lose in the same way that an all roach play deserves to lose to mass VR. You do drops, they get mutas, you transition to something else, like take another base, how can they stop you when they just got 12 mutas if you have 24 marines, 4 medivacs and stim?
That's how SC2 is meant to work.
This is actually the exact point we're trying to make. Once I scout mutas as protoss I can respond by doing what exactly? And the response from zerg isn't to transition to 'something' else, like roach or hydra or whatever it's to get MORE mutas. It's like mammoth tanks in C&C. It's stupid. The idea behind the tempest is that you get some mutas, i get a tempest you go 'oh shit' and get hydras, or corruptors, or 'something' because if you get MORE MUTAS I'll rofl stomp you into the ground.
Mutas are "weak" vs a big army, if we're going 200/200 army clash and they have 32 supply tied up in mutas because they were worried about drops then you're probably going to roll them in a strait up fight. The key problem that i can see with mutas once they hit the supa-flock threshold is that they can kill your base before you even reach their main and even then you won't kill the 4th and 5th bases in the distant corners.
As soon as you push out you're all in and screwed.
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goign to derail a bit,
july just dominated ToD in a ladder game with 1 base muta : ( my favourite zerg stumping my favourite toss using one of his many signature units! it seemed strong and it forced many, many early static defenses including some extra stalkers.
although it delayed ToD's third, it seemed that july could keep up in workers by simply relying on those first mutalisks to keep the map and deal a bit of damage while ToD was trying to react instead of pushing. if i were to compare the two races, the only thing from protoss that somewhat equates to a mutalisk is a phoenix. it is slightly more expensive and has very different uses. so for ToD to have rallied back in that game, he probably needed to react to it like it were a sort of cheese, and play the game out in a more aggressive style than usual.
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On December 13 2011 08:49 Kharnage wrote:
I disagree on the speed point.
They are a 'hard' counter to drops. Once they come out your drops are suicide drop and this is exactly right. The idea is zerg 'scouts' a drop play or gets dropped and responds by getting a spire and a dozen mutas to stop those shenannigans. Nothing wrong with this at all. If you continue to do drops once there are mutas then you deserve to lose in the same way that an all roach play deserves to lose to mass VR. You do drops, they get mutas, you transition to something else, like take another base, how can they stop you when they just got 12 mutas if you have 24 marines, 4 medivacs and stim?
That's how SC2 is meant to work.
This is actually the exact point we're trying to make. Once I scout mutas as protoss I can respond by doing what exactly? And the response from zerg isn't to transition to 'something' else, like roach or hydra or whatever it's to get MORE mutas. It's like mammoth tanks in C&C. It's stupid. The idea behind the tempest is that you get some mutas, i get a tempest you go 'oh shit' and get hydras, or corruptors, or 'something' because if you get MORE MUTAS I'll rofl stomp you into the ground.
Mutas are "weak" vs a big army, if we're going 200/200 army clash and they have 32 supply tied up in mutas because they were worried about drops then you're probably going to roll them in a strait up fight. The key problem that i can see with mutas once they hit the supa-flock threshold is that they can kill your base before you even reach their main and even then you won't kill the 4th and 5th bases in the distant corners.
As soon as you push out you're all in and screwed.
I agree to the letter, except I don't see mutalisk as a hardcounter to drops, or rather, they are a counter to drop just as much as any air unit is. Mutas are (should be) a harassing unit, the problem is that harassing should be a temporary situation, you harass, then you are forced to stop. You don't get to mass 40 reapers as terran and then win a game just like that, neither you get to mass 40 hellions and win the game. How come? Because there is no way you will ever safely get to have 40 reapers or 40 hellions without getting your ass kicked way before, and even if you do, your 40 reapers/40 hellions army will get eaten alive. With mutas you can do just that without any kind of trouble, the enemy will be *forced* to stay in his base without any real chance to counterattack, and when you get your 40+ muta army nothing he has will be able to stop it.
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On December 13 2011 08:58 nanaoei wrote:
goign to derail a bit,
july just dominated ToD in a ladder game with 1 base muta : ( my favourite zerg stumping my favourite toss using one of his many signature units! it seemed strong and it forced many, many early static defenses including some extra stalkers.
although it delayed ToD's third, it seemed that july could keep up in workers by simply relying on those first mutalisks to keep the map and deal a bit of damage while ToD was trying to react instead of pushing. if i were to compare the two races, the only thing from protoss that somewhat equates to a mutalisk is a phoenix. it is slightly more expensive and has very different uses. so for ToD to have rallied back in that game, he probably needed to react to it like it were a sort of cheese, and play the game out in a more aggressive style than usual.
I didn't watch this game, so I could be talking out my arse, but in general if someone is going 1 base muta you can just mass stalkers (12 or so) and then go kill them. 1 base muta is pretty bad cause you have nothing else apart from a small number of mutas.
2 base muta is a different thing entirely.
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On December 13 2011 09:05 RehnFreemark wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:49 Kharnage wrote:
I disagree on the speed point.
They are a 'hard' counter to drops. Once they come out your drops are suicide drop and this is exactly right. The idea is zerg 'scouts' a drop play or gets dropped and responds by getting a spire and a dozen mutas to stop those shenannigans. Nothing wrong with this at all. If you continue to do drops once there are mutas then you deserve to lose in the same way that an all roach play deserves to lose to mass VR. You do drops, they get mutas, you transition to something else, like take another base, how can they stop you when they just got 12 mutas if you have 24 marines, 4 medivacs and stim?
That's how SC2 is meant to work.
This is actually the exact point we're trying to make. Once I scout mutas as protoss I can respond by doing what exactly? And the response from zerg isn't to transition to 'something' else, like roach or hydra or whatever it's to get MORE mutas. It's like mammoth tanks in C&C. It's stupid. The idea behind the tempest is that you get some mutas, i get a tempest you go 'oh shit' and get hydras, or corruptors, or 'something' because if you get MORE MUTAS I'll rofl stomp you into the ground.
Mutas are "weak" vs a big army, if we're going 200/200 army clash and they have 32 supply tied up in mutas because they were worried about drops then you're probably going to roll them in a strait up fight. The key problem that i can see with mutas once they hit the supa-flock threshold is that they can kill your base before you even reach their main and even then you won't kill the 4th and 5th bases in the distant corners.
As soon as you push out you're all in and screwed. I agree to the letter, except I don't see mutalisk as a hardcounter to drops, or rather, they are a counter to drop just as much as any air unit is. Mutas are (should be) a harassing unit, the problem is that harassing should be a temporary situation, you harass, then you are forced to stop. You don't get to mass 40 reapers as terran and then win a game just like that, neither you get to mass 40 hellions and win the game. How come? Because there is no way you will ever safely get to have 40 reapers or 40 hellions without getting your ass kicked way before, and even if you do, your 40 reapers/40 hellions army will get eaten alive. With mutas you can do just that without any kind of trouble, the enemy will be *forced* to stay in his base without any real chance to counterattack, and when you get your 40+ muta army nothing he has will be able to stop it.
+1
You can mass muta for harras having absolutely no fear for your future. Not the case for helions, reapers, phoenix and everything else.
That's exactly why Muta should be nerfed, but not other races get buffed or get additional units.
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On December 13 2011 08:49 Kharnage wrote:
This is actually the exact point we're trying to make. Once I scout mutas as protoss I can respond by doing what exactly? And the response from zerg isn't to transition to 'something' else, like roach or hydra or whatever it's to get MORE mutas. It's like mammoth tanks in C&C. It's stupid. The idea behind the tempest is that you get some mutas, i get a tempest you go 'oh shit' and get hydras, or corruptors, or 'something' because if you get MORE MUTAS I'll rofl stomp you into the ground.
Mutas are "weak" vs a big army, if we're going 200/200 army clash and they have 32 supply tied up in mutas because they were worried about drops then you're probably going to roll them in a strait up fight. The key problem that i can see with mutas once they hit the supa-flock threshold is that they can kill your base before you even reach their main and even then you won't kill the 4th and 5th bases in the distant corners.
As soon as you push out you're all in and screwed.
There is one thing that owns mutas, and that is base D. Turrets and cannons. Sure, if they get a mass muta flock with 80 supply in mutas, you'll be scared to move out. But just delay moving out. Spread 40 farking turrets around your production facilities. He spent TONS of gas and minerals on his muta flock, so spend some of your money on base defense(and 3/3 marines). Then when you base trade, you come out of it with a mostly intact army and hopefully a few proxy buildings, and he comes out of it with about 6 hurt muta and a few proxy buildings. Ezpz. Ok, not exactly ezpz, but mutas suck in a straight up fight vs both P and T late-game armies due to splash, since magic boxing denies one of their main advantages.....the ability to clump up and drop all their firepower from a ball only slightly bigger than their unit model. It's why you never see pros go for the 80 muta ball. They know the answer is going to be turtling into 150 turrets, and then moving out and base trading.
Edit: I'm not saying mutas are bad, or that they don't need to be nerfed. Just saying that your mass muta ball into mass muta ball strategy conundrum is not exactly a viable strategy at high(highest) levels, and not the reason they should be nerfed. I've see many ZvP games end with a mass muta ball parked over a rapidly dwindling Toss ball, and thinking(for a moment) WTF can Toss do? And then I see army values and realize that the zerg spent far more on his army than the toss did on his, and mass muta was just his game-ending unit of choice, the toss would have probably died to anything of the same army value not roaches a-moved into forcefields.
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On December 13 2011 09:14 Jimbo77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 09:05 RehnFreemark wrote:On December 13 2011 08:49 Kharnage wrote:
I disagree on the speed point.
They are a 'hard' counter to drops. Once they come out your drops are suicide drop and this is exactly right. The idea is zerg 'scouts' a drop play or gets dropped and responds by getting a spire and a dozen mutas to stop those shenannigans. Nothing wrong with this at all. If you continue to do drops once there are mutas then you deserve to lose in the same way that an all roach play deserves to lose to mass VR. You do drops, they get mutas, you transition to something else, like take another base, how can they stop you when they just got 12 mutas if you have 24 marines, 4 medivacs and stim?
That's how SC2 is meant to work.
This is actually the exact point we're trying to make. Once I scout mutas as protoss I can respond by doing what exactly? And the response from zerg isn't to transition to 'something' else, like roach or hydra or whatever it's to get MORE mutas. It's like mammoth tanks in C&C. It's stupid. The idea behind the tempest is that you get some mutas, i get a tempest you go 'oh shit' and get hydras, or corruptors, or 'something' because if you get MORE MUTAS I'll rofl stomp you into the ground.
Mutas are "weak" vs a big army, if we're going 200/200 army clash and they have 32 supply tied up in mutas because they were worried about drops then you're probably going to roll them in a strait up fight. The key problem that i can see with mutas once they hit the supa-flock threshold is that they can kill your base before you even reach their main and even then you won't kill the 4th and 5th bases in the distant corners.
As soon as you push out you're all in and screwed. I agree to the letter, except I don't see mutalisk as a hardcounter to drops, or rather, they are a counter to drop just as much as any air unit is. Mutas are (should be) a harassing unit, the problem is that harassing should be a temporary situation, you harass, then you are forced to stop. You don't get to mass 40 reapers as terran and then win a game just like that, neither you get to mass 40 hellions and win the game. How come? Because there is no way you will ever safely get to have 40 reapers or 40 hellions without getting your ass kicked way before, and even if you do, your 40 reapers/40 hellions army will get eaten alive. With mutas you can do just that without any kind of trouble, the enemy will be *forced* to stay in his base without any real chance to counterattack, and when you get your 40+ muta army nothing he has will be able to stop it. +1 You can mass muta for harras having absolutely no fear for your future. Not the case for helions, reapers, phoenix and everything else. That's exactly why Muta should be nerfed, but not other races get buffed or get additional units.
But how would we nerf them? their use is that they're meant to do little damage relative to their speed. Problem is when they get to such large numbers their damage becomes so great anyway. Honestly, if they got a nerf to the speed, I could just see Zergs rushing the armor upgrade and using them in straight up fights with lings.
If we nerf the damage then they become totally useless for the Zerg. Imo my recommendation is to nerf the bounce. Remove the third bounce, and cut the second bounce damage in half. This way, mutas don't obliterate everything, they just obliterate one unit at a time.
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On December 13 2011 09:16 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:49 Kharnage wrote:
This is actually the exact point we're trying to make. Once I scout mutas as protoss I can respond by doing what exactly? And the response from zerg isn't to transition to 'something' else, like roach or hydra or whatever it's to get MORE mutas. It's like mammoth tanks in C&C. It's stupid. The idea behind the tempest is that you get some mutas, i get a tempest you go 'oh shit' and get hydras, or corruptors, or 'something' because if you get MORE MUTAS I'll rofl stomp you into the ground.
Mutas are "weak" vs a big army, if we're going 200/200 army clash and they have 32 supply tied up in mutas because they were worried about drops then you're probably going to roll them in a strait up fight. The key problem that i can see with mutas once they hit the supa-flock threshold is that they can kill your base before you even reach their main and even then you won't kill the 4th and 5th bases in the distant corners.
As soon as you push out you're all in and screwed. There is one thing that owns mutas, and that is base D. Turrets and cannons. Sure, if they get a mass muta flock with 80 supply in mutas, you'll be scared to move out. But just delay moving out. Spread 40 farking turrets around your production facilities. He spent TONS of gas and minerals on his muta flock, so spend some of your money on base defense(and 3/3 marines). Then when you base trade, you come out of it with a mostly intact army and hopefully a few proxy buildings, and he comes out of it with about 6 hurt muta and a few proxy buildings. Ezpz. Ok, not exactly ezpz, but mutas suck in a straight up fight vs both P and T late-game armies due to splash, since magic boxing denies one of their main advantages.....the ability to clump up and drop all their firepower from a ball only slightly bigger than their unit model. It's why you never see pros go for the 80 muta ball. They know the answer is going to be turtling into 150 turrets, and then moving out and base trading. Edit: I'm not saying mutas are bad, or that they don't need to be nerfed. Just saying that your mass muta ball into mass muta ball strategy conundrum is not exactly a viable strategy at high(highest) levels, and not the reason they should be nerfed. I've see many ZvP games end with a mass muta ball parked over a rapidly dwindling Toss ball, and thinking(for a moment) WTF can Toss do? And then I see army values and realize that the zerg spent far more on his army than the toss did on his, and mass muta was just his game-ending unit of choice, the toss would have probably died to anything of the same army value not roaches a-moved into forcefields.
turtling only removes any further harassment in one or two specific portions of your base, while your units protect the remaining sides. keeping units and even the process of making all this static defense keeps you from moving or keeping map awareness. a good zerg could easily line up a pair a lings everywhere and eventually burrow them in place before you're even allowed to move out. as with all static defense, they cannot move, but units obviously can, which is why in BW, many players tried to spend as little as they could on static D and prioritizing units that could actively deal with the mutas.
on certain maps, taking a third is risky to the point that it makes the actual mining with that base much later on than you'd ideally want. the mechanically sound zerg with good information will always take the advantage of having the map and run away with it the longer the game gets.
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On December 13 2011 09:19 xlava wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 09:14 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 13 2011 09:05 RehnFreemark wrote:On December 13 2011 08:49 Kharnage wrote:
I disagree on the speed point.
They are a 'hard' counter to drops. Once they come out your drops are suicide drop and this is exactly right. The idea is zerg 'scouts' a drop play or gets dropped and responds by getting a spire and a dozen mutas to stop those shenannigans. Nothing wrong with this at all. If you continue to do drops once there are mutas then you deserve to lose in the same way that an all roach play deserves to lose to mass VR. You do drops, they get mutas, you transition to something else, like take another base, how can they stop you when they just got 12 mutas if you have 24 marines, 4 medivacs and stim?
That's how SC2 is meant to work.
This is actually the exact point we're trying to make. Once I scout mutas as protoss I can respond by doing what exactly? And the response from zerg isn't to transition to 'something' else, like roach or hydra or whatever it's to get MORE mutas. It's like mammoth tanks in C&C. It's stupid. The idea behind the tempest is that you get some mutas, i get a tempest you go 'oh shit' and get hydras, or corruptors, or 'something' because if you get MORE MUTAS I'll rofl stomp you into the ground.
Mutas are "weak" vs a big army, if we're going 200/200 army clash and they have 32 supply tied up in mutas because they were worried about drops then you're probably going to roll them in a strait up fight. The key problem that i can see with mutas once they hit the supa-flock threshold is that they can kill your base before you even reach their main and even then you won't kill the 4th and 5th bases in the distant corners.
As soon as you push out you're all in and screwed. I agree to the letter, except I don't see mutalisk as a hardcounter to drops, or rather, they are a counter to drop just as much as any air unit is. Mutas are (should be) a harassing unit, the problem is that harassing should be a temporary situation, you harass, then you are forced to stop. You don't get to mass 40 reapers as terran and then win a game just like that, neither you get to mass 40 hellions and win the game. How come? Because there is no way you will ever safely get to have 40 reapers or 40 hellions without getting your ass kicked way before, and even if you do, your 40 reapers/40 hellions army will get eaten alive. With mutas you can do just that without any kind of trouble, the enemy will be *forced* to stay in his base without any real chance to counterattack, and when you get your 40+ muta army nothing he has will be able to stop it. +1 You can mass muta for harras having absolutely no fear for your future. Not the case for helions, reapers, phoenix and everything else. That's exactly why Muta should be nerfed, but not other races get buffed or get additional units. But how would we nerf them? their use is that they're meant to do little damage relative to their speed. Problem is when they get to such large numbers their damage becomes so great anyway. Honestly, if they got a nerf to the speed, I could just see Zergs rushing the armor upgrade and using them in straight up fights with lings. If we nerf the damage then they become totally useless for the Zerg. Imo my recommendation is to nerf the bounce. Remove the third bounce, and cut the second bounce damage in half. This way, mutas don't obliterate everything, they just obliterate one unit at a time.
Good point. +1
Thought of it too. But it doesn't resolve the fact, that it's impossible to kill the muta's stock, flying between the bases.
Even if you neglect the bounce, your mineral lines and production facilities are in trobles. Always.
Acceleration-speed nerf must be.
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The flaw with mutas is their splash damage. Splash damage means exponential growth, with no drawback, as in brood war, where you had to split them up by the dozen.
There's no drawback to getting lots of mutas, essentially. Sure, in a straight fight they're not GREAT, but they're still insanely threatening and can shred most anything when the numbers grow.
Their counters are very ineffective, and are ALL so slow that you can't reliably leave your base for a "poke" attack or positioning, lest you leave units at home and get rolled, or the mutas zip into your base and instantly force a base race.
As terran, if my opponent is hoarding mutalisks, I can't leave my base for a major push because the mutas will swoop in and wreck my production. So my main attack essentially becomes an all-in.
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On December 13 2011 09:16 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:49 Kharnage wrote:
This is actually the exact point we're trying to make. Once I scout mutas as protoss I can respond by doing what exactly? And the response from zerg isn't to transition to 'something' else, like roach or hydra or whatever it's to get MORE mutas. It's like mammoth tanks in C&C. It's stupid. The idea behind the tempest is that you get some mutas, i get a tempest you go 'oh shit' and get hydras, or corruptors, or 'something' because if you get MORE MUTAS I'll rofl stomp you into the ground.
Mutas are "weak" vs a big army, if we're going 200/200 army clash and they have 32 supply tied up in mutas because they were worried about drops then you're probably going to roll them in a strait up fight. The key problem that i can see with mutas once they hit the supa-flock threshold is that they can kill your base before you even reach their main and even then you won't kill the 4th and 5th bases in the distant corners.
As soon as you push out you're all in and screwed. There is one thing that owns mutas, and that is base D. Turrets and cannons. Sure, if they get a mass muta flock with 80 supply in mutas, you'll be scared to move out. But just delay moving out. Spread 40 farking turrets around your production facilities. He spent TONS of gas and minerals on his muta flock, so spend some of your money on base defense(and 3/3 marines). Then when you base trade, you come out of it with a mostly intact army and hopefully a few proxy buildings, and he comes out of it with about 6 hurt muta and a few proxy buildings. Ezpz. Ok, not exactly ezpz, but mutas suck in a straight up fight vs both P and T late-game armies due to splash, since magic boxing denies one of their main advantages.....the ability to clump up and drop all their firepower from a ball only slightly bigger than their unit model. It's why you never see pros go for the 80 muta ball. They know the answer is going to be turtling into 150 turrets, and then moving out and base trading. Edit: I'm not saying mutas are bad, or that they don't need to be nerfed. Just saying that your mass muta ball into mass muta ball strategy conundrum is not exactly a viable strategy at high(highest) levels, and not the reason they should be nerfed. I've see many ZvP games end with a mass muta ball parked over a rapidly dwindling Toss ball, and thinking(for a moment) WTF can Toss do? And then I see army values and realize that the zerg spent far more on his army than the toss did on his, and mass muta was just his game-ending unit of choice, the toss would have probably died to anything of the same army value not roaches a-moved into forcefields.
This is just wrong. Cannons cost 150min each, and have pretty terrible dps. Zerg have the economy advantage at this point because of 2 reasons.
1) they have map control.
2) half my resources have gone into cannons.
look at it this way. I FFE zerg responds with a fast 3rd into mutas. Just assume for the moment that my push out fails to break their 3rd (i know i know, protoss should be going after that 3rd or a 6 gate timing attack or wahtever).
So the mutas get out and I attempt to grab a 3rd. Mutas harass the main so i reposition my army to protect my base while I build 5 cannons in my main to protect it (750 mins) and 3 cannons in my nat(450 mins) while he denys my 3rd with lings. I move out again and retake my 3rd. his muta flock has grown enough that he targets down the cannons. for arguments sake lets say he loses 5 mutas. I reposition my army again and he denys my 3rd again.
I think you can see where i'm going with this.
Meanwhile the zerg player can take a 4th and a 5th and REALLY ramp up the muta production.
Sure I can turtle, and as long as my army is in my base he can't touch me, but he doesn't have to. Now assume i'm better than I really am and say i split my army in the right numbers to take a 3rd and protect it from the ling counter and also stop the mutas from doing damage. Now what? How do i get a 4th? Every base I get actually makes my situation worse. Every base he gets makes his position stronger.
The "base defence is the solution" relys on the non-zerg player having the same or bigger economy as the zerg player. zerg will have more gasses, more mins and more workers. The time it takes for a 2 or even 3 base protoss to get enough mins and build enough cannons AND enough army to win a fight means zerg can instantly re-max whatever the hell they want.
Hell, at that point they could just flood roaches and win. Which is the other point. All the resources dumped into base defence will be banked on the zerg side along with larva. The zerg mechanics mean you might force a confrontation with the muta flock with your huge stalker ball, but as soon as that fight is over zerg still wins.
Lose the battle, win the war.
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On December 13 2011 09:41 Honeybadger wrote:
The flaw with mutas is their splash damage. Splash damage means exponential growth, with no drawback, as in brood war, where you had to split them up by the dozen.
There's no drawback to getting lots of mutas, essentially. Sure, in a straight fight they're not GREAT, but they're still insanely threatening and can shred most anything when the numbers grow.
Their counters are very ineffective, and are ALL so slow that you can't reliably leave your base for a "poke" attack or positioning, lest you leave units at home and get rolled, or the mutas zip into your base and instantly force a base race.
As terran, if my opponent is hoarding mutalisks, I can't leave my base for a major push because the mutas will swoop in and wreck my production. So my main attack essentially becomes an all-in.
Keep a thor, potentially in a medivac, patroling around your base?
A zerg, even with 35 muta, does not want to fly into 5 turrets + 1 thor just to kill a few scv.
If you are actually pushing as well, then they will need that 70 supply in battle..
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On December 13 2011 09:41 Honeybadger wrote:
The flaw with mutas is their splash damage. Splash damage means exponential growth, with no drawback, as in brood war, where you had to split them up by the dozen.
Mutas do not deal splash damage. Get your facts straight before discussing the balance of an unit, please.
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On December 13 2011 09:56 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 09:41 Honeybadger wrote:
The flaw with mutas is their splash damage. Splash damage means exponential growth, with no drawback, as in brood war, where you had to split them up by the dozen. Mutas do not deal splash damage. Get your facts straight before discussing the balance of an unit, please.
he's talking about the bounce and armour upgrades pretty much nullify it so i don't think it's an issue.
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On December 13 2011 10:01 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 09:56 Meff wrote:On December 13 2011 09:41 Honeybadger wrote:
The flaw with mutas is their splash damage. Splash damage means exponential growth, with no drawback, as in brood war, where you had to split them up by the dozen. Mutas do not deal splash damage. Get your facts straight before discussing the balance of an unit, please. he's talking about the bounce and armour upgrades pretty much nullify it so i don't think it's an issue.
Yeah, he certainly is. The problem is that he then speaks of it like it was true splash. A double bounce does not improve as numbers get higher than 3.
The point about armor upgrades seems iffy, though. Shields are rarely upped, for instance.
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On December 13 2011 09:19 xlava wrote:
But how would we nerf them? their use is that they're meant to do little damage relative to their speed. Problem is when they get to such large numbers their damage becomes so great anyway. Honestly, if they got a nerf to the speed, I could just see Zergs rushing the armor upgrade and using them in straight up fights with lings.
If we nerf the damage then they become totally useless for the Zerg. Imo my recommendation is to nerf the bounce. Remove the third bounce, and cut the second bounce damage in half. This way, mutas don't obliterate everything, they just obliterate one unit at a time.
You know, there's a lot of different answers to "how do we nerf them". You could try reducing the bounce damage, try to reduce their movement, try get them to cost more money/production time (so it takes way more to make a huge muta ball), change their tech production, making their damage/speed/bounce attack be researched through upgrades, or any combination of the above + more.
The thing is, so far blizzard has not even *tried* to do anything, you can patch them and realise it was a mistake and try something different (it's been done for tons of units in the game), but no, wait until Hots to fix a unit all other races strongly complain about?
To anyone saying "make 40 cannons" I'm sorry but you don't realize that Starcraft isn't simcity, you win by killing your opponent not by making the biggest base... after you make 40 cannons (still useless because you can't realistically defend the whole main base + expansions) and in the meanwhile the zerg takes 6 bases, floats to 5k resources and then suicides his mutas on your army and instantly switches to 200/200 roach zergling... what do you do?
Not to mention that any zerg who plays with more than one hand will constantly harass you destroying building pylons/cannons, preventing you from actually dropping more than a few.
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They're pretty damn overpowered yeah, only reason they might not seem very overpowered is because imbarines exist in the tvz MU which makes them seem balanced.
EDIT: A fix (read: nerf) for mutas is to remove the bounce attack for the air-to-air attack which would actually make phoenixes decent against them in mass.
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EPT
