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On October 26 2011 03:34 aRRoSC2 wrote:
A robo that costs 100 gas lets you build a warp prism for just minerals which is pretty much a flying nydus worm that doesn't make a sound (I know this is not entirely true and I'm being provocative here...). Terran spends 100 gas on each medivac.
Prism's cost 2 supply. You can't just pump them out like medivacs. Any more than 2 or 3 and your 200/200 army will be significantly weakened.
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On October 26 2011 03:34 aRRoSC2 wrote:
A robo that costs 100 gas lets you build a warp prism for just minerals which is pretty much a flying nydus worm that doesn't make a sound (I know this is not entirely true and I'm being provocative here...). Terran spends 100 gas on each medivac.
you can't just take a bunch of resources and say that they do equal things for each race. Sure a medivac costs 100 gas. It also heals. It also doesn't drain gas from other important functions--a terran only needs 3 gas to get out constant medivacs from a reactored starport as well as upgrades. a protoss requires 4 gasses and this gas must be allocated to the core composition, not units that are gas-free--marines (well, zealots, but zealots require upgrades and charge to be effective and these cost a lot of gas) and mauraders that cost very little gas.
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On October 24 2011 18:47 greggy wrote:
rofl at the posts in this thread.
this is an awful change. Awful.
It doesn't seem like you are actually laughing.
Are you going to give a reason for your response? Or are you going to cry some more?
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On October 26 2011 03:34 aRRoSC2 wrote:
A robo that costs 100 gas lets you build a warp prism for just minerals which is pretty much a flying nydus worm that doesn't make a sound (I know this is not entirely true and I'm being provocative here...). Terran spends 100 gas on each medivac.
you can get a 200/200 upgrade and let every overlord load and drop units
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I kind of like this idea mostly due to situations that end with "and then I forcefield your ramp."
I'm open to the notion of recompensating Protoss with tweaks that are good in situations that aren't so likely to be abusive. I'm also aware that prisms still allow similar shenannigans, but I feel like the added inconvenience of using a prism instead of a pylon (especially needing build time from the robo) makes high ground warpins more of a deliberate gambit (like any drop) and less of an opportunistic convenience.
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On October 26 2011 04:29 jumai wrote:
I kind of like this idea mostly due to situations that end with "and then I forcefield your ramp."
I'm open to the notion of recompensating Protoss with tweaks that are good in situations that aren't so likely to be abusive.
this makes absolutely no sense. in what situation does warping up to high ground affect low ground moves in the nat that involve forcefielding a ramp? or warp prism plays that attack the main while forcefielding the ramp?
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On October 26 2011 04:31 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 04:29 jumai wrote:
I kind of like this idea mostly due to situations that end with "and then I forcefield your ramp."
I'm open to the notion of recompensating Protoss with tweaks that are good in situations that aren't so likely to be abusive. this makes absolutely no sense. in what situation does warping up to high ground affect low ground moves in the nat that involve forcefielding a ramp? or warp prism plays that attack the main while forcefielding the ramp?
1) Almost never in a natural. It's mostly in a third or a main.
2) I edited my above post to cover this, but warp prisms take a bit more strategic commitment to drop play than proxy pylons do. I don't play Toss but it seems like even just having to use your robo for another thing that isn't colossus would be a nuisance.
edit: to be clear, I'm thinking much more of "spot the high ground, warp in 5 zealots, forcefield from the low ground and book it" situations than ones where you forcefield your whole force inside.
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On October 26 2011 04:36 jumai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 04:31 Alejandrisha wrote:On October 26 2011 04:29 jumai wrote:
I kind of like this idea mostly due to situations that end with "and then I forcefield your ramp."
I'm open to the notion of recompensating Protoss with tweaks that are good in situations that aren't so likely to be abusive. this makes absolutely no sense. in what situation does warping up to high ground affect low ground moves in the nat that involve forcefielding a ramp? or warp prism plays that attack the main while forcefielding the ramp? 1) Almost never in a natural. It's mostly in a third or a main. 2) I edited my above post to cover this, but warp prisms take a bit more strategic commitment to drop play than proxy pylons do. I don't play Toss but it seems like even just having to use your robo for another thing that isn't colossus would be a nuisance.
the top end P players are moving away from it-- see hero.. his PvZ is probably the best in the world right now from watching the last 18 hours of his jtv vods.. he rarely loses to any zerg and just plays the match-up so perfectly. he executes warp prism triple prongs amazingly to snipe hatches, sometimes at 2 bases at once. I'm sure as P players get better the robo won't be constantly churning out colo and immortals just to survive timings or hit them or to defend a 3rd, but not all of us are there yet 
edit: the move you describe above is a very technical play and requires great execution to pull off. I'm not sure why you think this should not be allowed. ff's don't last forever and what is the zerg doing that's letting the protoss sit at the bottom of his ramp and ff it with sentries that don't die immediately?
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On October 26 2011 04:39 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 04:36 jumai wrote:On October 26 2011 04:31 Alejandrisha wrote:On October 26 2011 04:29 jumai wrote:
I kind of like this idea mostly due to situations that end with "and then I forcefield your ramp."
I'm open to the notion of recompensating Protoss with tweaks that are good in situations that aren't so likely to be abusive. this makes absolutely no sense. in what situation does warping up to high ground affect low ground moves in the nat that involve forcefielding a ramp? or warp prism plays that attack the main while forcefielding the ramp? 1) Almost never in a natural. It's mostly in a third or a main. 2) I edited my above post to cover this, but warp prisms take a bit more strategic commitment to drop play than proxy pylons do. I don't play Toss but it seems like even just having to use your robo for another thing that isn't colossus would be a nuisance. the top end P players are moving away from it-- see hero.. his PvZ is probably the best in the world right now from watching the last 18 hours of his jtv vods.. he rarely loses to any zerg and just plays the match-up so perfectly. he executes warp prism triple prongs amazingly to snipe hatches, sometimes at 2 bases at once. I'm sure as P players get better the robo won't be constantly churning out colo and immortals just to survive timings or hit them or to defend a 3rd, but not all of us are there yet edit: the move you describe above is a very technical play and requires great execution to pull off. I'm not sure why you think this should not be allowed. ff's don't last forever and what is the zerg doing that's letting the protoss sit at the bottom of his ramp and ff it with sentries that don't die immediately?
Sit there? The "then book it" part was kind of key. Keeping the zerglings/marines out of their own third for an extra 15 seconds is more than enough for 5 zealots to wreck it totally. And it's not technical at all if you put down that proxy pylon ages ago in the likely location for a third. Just roll out with your first colossus (to spot), warp in, drop forcefields when reinforcements come rushing in, and leave before they can catch up.
The prism play you describe is exactly what I meant by "strategic commitment to drop play". Yeah, it's sick and it's fair, but it probably wouldn't be if you could pump colo's while setting up for it at half the mineral cost.
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On October 26 2011 04:44 jumai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 04:39 Alejandrisha wrote:On October 26 2011 04:36 jumai wrote:On October 26 2011 04:31 Alejandrisha wrote:On October 26 2011 04:29 jumai wrote:
I kind of like this idea mostly due to situations that end with "and then I forcefield your ramp."
I'm open to the notion of recompensating Protoss with tweaks that are good in situations that aren't so likely to be abusive. this makes absolutely no sense. in what situation does warping up to high ground affect low ground moves in the nat that involve forcefielding a ramp? or warp prism plays that attack the main while forcefielding the ramp? 1) Almost never in a natural. It's mostly in a third or a main. 2) I edited my above post to cover this, but warp prisms take a bit more strategic commitment to drop play than proxy pylons do. I don't play Toss but it seems like even just having to use your robo for another thing that isn't colossus would be a nuisance. the top end P players are moving away from it-- see hero.. his PvZ is probably the best in the world right now from watching the last 18 hours of his jtv vods.. he rarely loses to any zerg and just plays the match-up so perfectly. he executes warp prism triple prongs amazingly to snipe hatches, sometimes at 2 bases at once. I'm sure as P players get better the robo won't be constantly churning out colo and immortals just to survive timings or hit them or to defend a 3rd, but not all of us are there yet edit: the move you describe above is a very technical play and requires great execution to pull off. I'm not sure why you think this should not be allowed. ff's don't last forever and what is the zerg doing that's letting the protoss sit at the bottom of his ramp and ff it with sentries that don't die immediately? Sit there? The "then book it" part was kind of key. Keeping the zerglings/marines out of their own third for an extra 15 seconds is more than enough for 5 zealots to wreck it totally. And it's not technical at all if you put down that proxy pylon ages ago in the likely location for a third. Just roll out with your first colossus (to spot), warp in, drop forcefields when reinforcements come rushing in, and leave before they can catch up.
and what about this is abusive? seems like a good play that utilizes all of the protoss's tools in an effective way O_O
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On October 25 2011 07:01 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 06:51 Shiladie wrote:
remember warp-in still is possible DOWN from cliffs, this is just preventing UP cliffs Do you have any proof of this?
Yea if its up cliffs i'm fine with it but going down is what i was angry about. It sounds like im talkibg about an elevator
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On October 26 2011 04:44 jumai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 04:39 Alejandrisha wrote:On October 26 2011 04:36 jumai wrote:On October 26 2011 04:31 Alejandrisha wrote:On October 26 2011 04:29 jumai wrote:
I kind of like this idea mostly due to situations that end with "and then I forcefield your ramp."
I'm open to the notion of recompensating Protoss with tweaks that are good in situations that aren't so likely to be abusive. this makes absolutely no sense. in what situation does warping up to high ground affect low ground moves in the nat that involve forcefielding a ramp? or warp prism plays that attack the main while forcefielding the ramp? 1) Almost never in a natural. It's mostly in a third or a main. 2) I edited my above post to cover this, but warp prisms take a bit more strategic commitment to drop play than proxy pylons do. I don't play Toss but it seems like even just having to use your robo for another thing that isn't colossus would be a nuisance. the top end P players are moving away from it-- see hero.. his PvZ is probably the best in the world right now from watching the last 18 hours of his jtv vods.. he rarely loses to any zerg and just plays the match-up so perfectly. he executes warp prism triple prongs amazingly to snipe hatches, sometimes at 2 bases at once. I'm sure as P players get better the robo won't be constantly churning out colo and immortals just to survive timings or hit them or to defend a 3rd, but not all of us are there yet edit: the move you describe above is a very technical play and requires great execution to pull off. I'm not sure why you think this should not be allowed. ff's don't last forever and what is the zerg doing that's letting the protoss sit at the bottom of his ramp and ff it with sentries that don't die immediately? Sit there? The "then book it" part was kind of key. Keeping the zerglings/marines out of their own third for an extra 15 seconds is more than enough for 5 zealots to wreck it totally. And it's not technical at all if you put down that proxy pylon ages ago in the likely location for a third. Just roll out with your first colossus (to spot), warp in, drop forcefields when reinforcements come rushing in, and leave before they can catch up. The prism play you describe is exactly what I meant by "strategic commitment to drop play". Yeah, it's sick and it's fair, but it probably wouldn't be if you could pump colo's while setting up for it at half the mineral cost.
losing your third to forcefield 'abuse' as zerg is on the exact same level as losing your third to a ling runby. if you have units there, it doesn't nothing. if you don't, you lose a base.
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Does this effect unit production aswell?
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On October 26 2011 05:38 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 04:44 jumai wrote:On October 26 2011 04:39 Alejandrisha wrote:On October 26 2011 04:36 jumai wrote:On October 26 2011 04:31 Alejandrisha wrote:On October 26 2011 04:29 jumai wrote:
I kind of like this idea mostly due to situations that end with "and then I forcefield your ramp."
I'm open to the notion of recompensating Protoss with tweaks that are good in situations that aren't so likely to be abusive. this makes absolutely no sense. in what situation does warping up to high ground affect low ground moves in the nat that involve forcefielding a ramp? or warp prism plays that attack the main while forcefielding the ramp? 1) Almost never in a natural. It's mostly in a third or a main. 2) I edited my above post to cover this, but warp prisms take a bit more strategic commitment to drop play than proxy pylons do. I don't play Toss but it seems like even just having to use your robo for another thing that isn't colossus would be a nuisance. the top end P players are moving away from it-- see hero.. his PvZ is probably the best in the world right now from watching the last 18 hours of his jtv vods.. he rarely loses to any zerg and just plays the match-up so perfectly. he executes warp prism triple prongs amazingly to snipe hatches, sometimes at 2 bases at once. I'm sure as P players get better the robo won't be constantly churning out colo and immortals just to survive timings or hit them or to defend a 3rd, but not all of us are there yet edit: the move you describe above is a very technical play and requires great execution to pull off. I'm not sure why you think this should not be allowed. ff's don't last forever and what is the zerg doing that's letting the protoss sit at the bottom of his ramp and ff it with sentries that don't die immediately? Sit there? The "then book it" part was kind of key. Keeping the zerglings/marines out of their own third for an extra 15 seconds is more than enough for 5 zealots to wreck it totally. And it's not technical at all if you put down that proxy pylon ages ago in the likely location for a third. Just roll out with your first colossus (to spot), warp in, drop forcefields when reinforcements come rushing in, and leave before they can catch up. The prism play you describe is exactly what I meant by "strategic commitment to drop play". Yeah, it's sick and it's fair, but it probably wouldn't be if you could pump colo's while setting up for it at half the mineral cost. losing your third to forcefield 'abuse' as zerg is on the exact same level as losing your third to a ling runby. if you have units there, it doesn't nothing. if you don't, you lose a base.
I really hope you realize the difference here is the forcefield, and that you're not suggesting one should never expect to be able to defend one's expansions with one's nearby units when playing against Protoss. I'm not even suggesting that one should always be able to defend expansions with nearby units, only that making your opponent unable to do so should require more investment than a proxy pylon (for example, building a warp prism).
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On October 26 2011 05:51 jumai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 05:38 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 04:44 jumai wrote:On October 26 2011 04:39 Alejandrisha wrote:On October 26 2011 04:36 jumai wrote:On October 26 2011 04:31 Alejandrisha wrote:On October 26 2011 04:29 jumai wrote:
I kind of like this idea mostly due to situations that end with "and then I forcefield your ramp."
I'm open to the notion of recompensating Protoss with tweaks that are good in situations that aren't so likely to be abusive. this makes absolutely no sense. in what situation does warping up to high ground affect low ground moves in the nat that involve forcefielding a ramp? or warp prism plays that attack the main while forcefielding the ramp? 1) Almost never in a natural. It's mostly in a third or a main. 2) I edited my above post to cover this, but warp prisms take a bit more strategic commitment to drop play than proxy pylons do. I don't play Toss but it seems like even just having to use your robo for another thing that isn't colossus would be a nuisance. the top end P players are moving away from it-- see hero.. his PvZ is probably the best in the world right now from watching the last 18 hours of his jtv vods.. he rarely loses to any zerg and just plays the match-up so perfectly. he executes warp prism triple prongs amazingly to snipe hatches, sometimes at 2 bases at once. I'm sure as P players get better the robo won't be constantly churning out colo and immortals just to survive timings or hit them or to defend a 3rd, but not all of us are there yet edit: the move you describe above is a very technical play and requires great execution to pull off. I'm not sure why you think this should not be allowed. ff's don't last forever and what is the zerg doing that's letting the protoss sit at the bottom of his ramp and ff it with sentries that don't die immediately? Sit there? The "then book it" part was kind of key. Keeping the zerglings/marines out of their own third for an extra 15 seconds is more than enough for 5 zealots to wreck it totally. And it's not technical at all if you put down that proxy pylon ages ago in the likely location for a third. Just roll out with your first colossus (to spot), warp in, drop forcefields when reinforcements come rushing in, and leave before they can catch up. The prism play you describe is exactly what I meant by "strategic commitment to drop play". Yeah, it's sick and it's fair, but it probably wouldn't be if you could pump colo's while setting up for it at half the mineral cost. losing your third to forcefield 'abuse' as zerg is on the exact same level as losing your third to a ling runby. if you have units there, it doesn't nothing. if you don't, you lose a base. I really hope you realize the difference here is the forcefield, and that you're not suggesting one should never expect to be able to defend one's expansions with one's nearby units when playing against Protoss. I'm not even suggesting that one should always be able to defend expansions with nearby units, only that making your opponent unable to do so should require more investment than a proxy pylon (for example, building a warp prism).
sounds like you're angrier at the forcefield than the proxy pylon, because most protosses who do these sorts of ff walloffs do it with warp prisms in your main as a timing. furthermore, what kind of third can get totally ffed off for long enough for 5 zealots to kill it from 1 proxy pylon? the only way this could work is if the zerg player
a) has no speed
b) has no queen
c) has no spines
d) let's the protoss army walk across the map to their third uncontested
i'm struggling to envision the scenario in which your THIRD is being demolished by forcefields and 5 zealots. that's a pretty huge investment. the protoss losing that group of 5 zealots and 4 (or whatever) sentries is easily a bigger loss than losing a hatch, unless you already had a tonne of drones there and lose those too. however, the situation you're describing can't possibly happen with the first colossus and not be an actual push (you're framing it as harassment). here's why: the first colossus comes out on 2 bases, which means the protoss player probably has 4-5 gates and is slightly starved for gas. there's absolutely no way for him to warp in 2-4 sentries and 5 zealots from 1 pylon in 1 warp in cycle. he'd need at least two warp in cycles or to push with his already existing sentries. if the former, you have no excuse not to see it. if the latter, then it's a full out push and is totally legitimate, because if stopped it represents a substantial loss.
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This makes me sad, because of all the people whining about "I can't beat 4 gates QQ" "cannon rushes are so op QQ" This removes YET ANOTHER utility that the protoss has. On antiga everytime i FFE and then decide to 1 or 2 stargates i ALWAYS put them on the low ground being powered by a pylon on the high ground so if there's a roach ling all-in and my void isn't out they try to focus down the pylons powering it, then when there are no more on the low ground and they've wasted all that time killing pylons I still get my void up. People who think that "you're never going to use it in a real game" need to think outside the box
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High -> low powering and warp-ins still works though, it's just low -> high that was blocked. From the original post in the reddit thread:
Had a chance to play all 3 races at BlizzCon and there's one change that I haven't seen anyone discuss yet: Pylons on the low ground no longer grant power/warpfield to nearby highground. This means a proxy pylon on the low ground next to a cliff will NOT let you warp in units on the high ground. However a pylon on the high ground can still warp in units on the low ground.This was not mentioned in the HotS Multiplayer panel w/ Dustin Browder or David Kim, or in the new unit presentation. In fact most people didn't even seem to notice it because they were marveling at how dumb the new protoss units are. edit: really shitty camera phone photo http://i.imgur.com/dvlb8.jpg
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Protoss got stiffed, period. We got the corsair back in the form if 2 seperate units, a "new" unit that can only morph into non massive units, aka, ditto. And we got 2 units removed. The pylon is just a slap in the face.
Meanwhile the "most complete race" gets 2 awesome units and an awesome helion improvement.
..and a super Thor. 4v4 will be fun at least getting 4 Thors :/
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Just give the zealot their Captain America shield so the Brotoss can stutter step their OP zealot-marines and everyone will be juuuust fine.
+ Show Spoiler [lol] +
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Lol what the hell. What is so scary about protoss aggression that blizzard seem to think it always needs nerfs... >.>
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EPT
