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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On October 24 2011 22:20 zanmat0 wrote: Yeah, let's force Protoss to always go all 3 tech routes to have any success at all. that's what terran has to do vs protoss... | ||
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Xaoz
Germany146 Posts
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Frankon
3054 Posts
On October 25 2011 18:56 Quotidian wrote: that's what terran has to do vs protoss... But terran way of doing it is. Lift a building fly it land it in other place with diffrent addon. Tech switch completed.... | ||
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GhostFall
United States830 Posts
They can also go MMM which uses 2 tech trees. They can go Puma styles Marine/Ghost which uses 2 tech trees. Or 1 if you consider ghost to be along the same lines as the Barracks tech tree. They can go bio mech, which uses 2 tech trees. I'm not saying this is unfair or anything, but I am saying that you're full of it, if you think Terran has to go all 3 tech routes to be able to fight Protoss in early or mid game. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On October 25 2011 19:11 GhostFall wrote: Terran can go 1/1/1, which uses all 3 tech trees. They can also go MMM which uses 2 tech trees. They can go Puma styles Marine/Ghost which uses 2 tech trees. Or 1 if you consider ghost to be along the same lines as the Barracks tech tree. They can go bio mech, which uses 2 tech trees. I'm not saying this is unfair or anything, but I am saying that you're full of it, if you think Terran has to go all 3 tech routes to be able to fight Protoss in early or mid game. Why are you qualifying it with "early or mid game" all of a sudden? I don't really see the problem-- no matter how you cut it, terran has to use some aspects of their entire tech tree -- so why shouldn't protoss? Or why don't protoss players actually want to? It's not like the cost of the production buildings is any different when you start factoring in all the tech labs and reactors terran has to get as well. | ||
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Suikakuju
Germany238 Posts
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Gh05t
India37 Posts
I think they are trying to amplify the use of warp prism even further by making proxy pylons worse.. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On October 25 2011 19:43 Quotidian wrote: Why are you qualifying it with "early or mid game" all of a sudden? I don't really see the problem-- no matter how you cut it, terran has to use some aspects of their entire tech tree -- so why shouldn't protoss? Or why don't protoss players actually want to? It's not like the cost of the production buildings is any different when you start factoring in all the tech labs and reactors terran has to get as well. Do you really not understand the difference, or are you being perversive to make some kind of point down the line? | ||
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WeaVerPrime
34 Posts
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
On October 25 2011 19:43 Quotidian wrote: Why are you qualifying it with "early or mid game" all of a sudden? I don't really see the problem-- no matter how you cut it, terran has to use some aspects of their entire tech tree -- so why shouldn't protoss? Or why don't protoss players actually want to? It's not like the cost of the production buildings is any different when you start factoring in all the tech labs and reactors terran has to get as well. because the protoss tech tree is completely different to the terran tech tree >.< lets do a drawing. ![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/198/techtree.png/) The protoss tech tree is insanely more expensive than the terran tech tree and tech structures cant be swapped around like terran can. To get one of all those buildings is 1150 gas. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
But sure, go on thinking you're handicapped just because you picked protoss on the start screen.. your loss. | ||
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Hantak
Chile59 Posts
I dont like this, hope they address it and leave it the way it is on WoL. ps.: about the Terran tech tree in comparison with the protoss tech. unless you are going some odd thing you dont really need the fleet beacon, the 1-1-1 of toss is actually gateway-robo-stargate you use inmortals at first not collosus, is like Terran going for thors for its 1-1-1 (i've seen it :S ) And on the current state of the game Terran HAS to go marine, marauder, medivac, ghosts and viking every single match against toss. Mech is unplayable like it is now, and 1-1-1 is only really effective as a early to mid game strategy. Edit to Add: the cyb core is more like a general use techlab for barracks for protoss | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On October 25 2011 22:06 Quotidian wrote: barracks/factory/starport is more like gateway/cybercore/robo/stargate.. Of course I realize that the two tech trees are different, but you're just trying to make protoss seem more expansive/expensive than it really is. That comparison makes no sense. (Numbers from Liquipedia) Gateway - 150/0 65sec Cyber - 150/0 50sec Robo - 200/100 65sec Stargate - 150/150 60sec Barracks - 150/0 65sec Factory - 150/100 60sec Starport - 150/100 50sec Even without units its still cheaper by 200/50 and 65seconds of build time. As for the spending on your buildings to actually make stuff: Gateway vs Barracks - Not even comparable. Terrans mainly produce marines and mix in Marauders. Your only gas drain is Marauders at 25 gas each and the couple of add-ons you need. Compare that with Stalkers (50 gas) and Sentries (100 gas); and Marines are pretty much good against everything early game in any case wheras Zealots are more expensive and less effective early game. Later game Zealots catch up a bit through heavy investment into tech and through synergy with other units, although its difficult to say which is better later. Factory vs Robo - Pretty much everything costs more than Terran "equivilants". Example: colossi are great, but the "mech AoE" Terran counterpart is pretty much the Siege Tank; Siege Tech and Tech Lab costs a total of 150/125 and 105 seconds and it instantly makes all your existing tanks upgraded (at a cost of 150/125 45seconds each). Colossi require a 200/200 65second robo bay and have to be built separately at a cost of 300/200 75seconds per unit. And thats without extended thermal lance (200/200 140 sec) and without taking supply into account. Arguably your most favourable comparison is Siege Tank vs Immortal because Siege Tanks cost 25 more gas than Immortals; but they build 10 seconds faster and cost a solid 100 less minerals. Stargate vs Starport - This one is easy. Theres little you would actually want from a Stargate for a normal build because the units are expensive, too specialised and tend not to synergise with the rest of your army. Void Rays cost more minerals than anything from a Starport except the Battlecruiser (which is hardly used anyway) and cost more gas than anything other than the Battlecruiser and the Raven (which is situational and not a key part of your army anyway) and (for comparison) have the same food requirement as a Banshee but 6 less DPS even when charged. A Starport produces one unit that is useful in literally every situation (Medivac) and one that hard-counters Colossi, Carriers AND the Mothership (Viking). Not to mention Banshees which can be incredibly potent raiders and Ravens which are decent but situational flying spellcasters. The only strong argument to be made here is that Warp Prisms cost only minerals whereas Medivacs cost gas as well. But I'd argue that this is easily made up for by the Gateway unit vs Barracks unit gas cost difference. Oh, and Protoss have another entirely separate tech path they have to take to get everything, or even to just to make gateway units more viable late game (Blink/Charge, Templars). I honestly don't think you realise how much gas all of this costs. It fundamentally comes down to this: Terran basic gas drain is tech, mech and medivacs. Protoss has a huge gas drain in just its gateway units and then has to do its own tech and mech on top of that. Its not feasible to do more than one tech route early game, because your gas is being constantly drained already and you can't afford more gas drains. I'm not saying Protoss doesn't have some good units, Colossi are more powerful in most situations than Siege Tanks for example. But its all hugely gas expensive. So once you've chosen a route you have to stick with it unless absolutely forced to change (for example: I'll often do a quick tech switch from Robo to Twilight Council/Blink if I see mass Void Rays or mass Mutas or something and just cut all robo production) and unless you've got a very specific build in mind it is just not feasible to go some tech routes because they're just not complementary to a solid core army. | ||
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Kurai
Canada167 Posts
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StatX
Canada343 Posts
Do they want protoss to play air only as the only viable solution for harass? I dont get it. Its bad enough that you cant even warp in on a ramp in your own base and we had the radius reduced but now theyre messing with the low/high ground mechanic? What does this achieve? It doesnt change the PvP issue with Teldarim where there is no ramp so no low/high ground and anyone could kill a pylon no matter where it was (unless its name was Pylo). Protoss are already at the bottom of the win chain and now they remove any and all creativity forcing us into linear play... I think they need to forget this. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On October 25 2011 14:34 Tektos wrote: You honestly have no idea how stopping units from being warped directly into the Protoss' base fixes PvP? You honestly have no idea how a mechanic which allows you to warp units directly into the base of the race that has no defenders advantage other than cannons, (which with this tactic are completely circumvented) results in a competition where you have to match your opponent's unit count and out-micro them or lose? Which in turn makes strategies such as taking an expansion, teching or any build variation all tenfold more risky than in any other match-up... If you honestly have no idea how this fixes PvP then I think you need to refrain from comments such as "this change is retarded" as you are obviously quite clueless. oh man. that is quite rich. why don't you explain to me how pvp works then | ||
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TCC
46 Posts
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Rorschach
United States623 Posts
On October 26 2011 02:53 TCC wrote: As far as I'm concerned Protoss shouldn't be able to warp-in any units at all. So, I like this change. well were at lets neuter the toss some more! Afterall everyone knows that marauders and roaches get eaten alive by the sheer raw power of gateway units! Its no wonder mass stalkers wins so many games! | ||
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aRRoSC2
Denmark241 Posts
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