|
On October 25 2011 14:34 Tektos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 13:58 Alejandrisha wrote:On October 24 2011 18:50 dezi wrote:Awesome change - no more XNC Proxy Gates with Pylon on low ground, no more Warps on top of opponents ramp, No more DTs Warps without a Prism (Prisma kinda buffed due to this change). I like this change  that's like saying removing the zealot is a stalker buff.. this change is retarded. what is this fixing exactly? you could always hold a pvp 4gate if they couldn't get up pylons on the high ground. if you allowed an above ground pylon to finish you deserve to lose. this doesn't fix pvp at all. no idea what the idea is here You honestly have no idea how stopping units from being warped directly into the Protoss' base fixes PvP? You honestly have no idea how a mechanic which allows you to warp units directly into the base of the race that has no defenders advantage other than cannons, (which with this tactic are completely circumvented) results in a competition where you have to match your opponent's unit count and out-micro them or lose? Which in turn makes strategies such as taking an expansion, teching or any build variation all tenfold more risky than in any other match-up... If you honestly have no idea how this fixes PvP then I think you need to refrain from comments such as "this change is retarded" as you are obviously quite clueless.
It doesn't fix anything in PvP. 4 gates were already shut down by sentries. If they get a proxy pylon or wrestle control from you and slam a pylon down at the top of your ramp you're dead anyway. If they cannon rush from the low ground you can wall your base in entirely to deny vision to the high ground. Proxy 2 gate from the low ground only has to be scouted.
Every so called problem is solved by being competent and knowing what to do.
|
On October 24 2011 18:33 GhostFall wrote:http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/lmg3u/hots_lowground_pylons_do_not_grant_power_to_high/http://i.imgur.com/dvlb8.jpgSurprised no one mentioned this. No one seems to be discussing it as well. This means not only will you not be able to build from low ground to high ground, You also can't warp in from low ground to high ground. I feel this is a terrible change. We've already gotten the pylon radius change, vision up ramp change, and warpgate change to stop 4 gate. I feel like it removes a few tactics that the protoss can do. For example, I remember watching a GSL game on Xel'Naga Caverns where a pylon was placed on the low ground near the opponents main, and using a hallucination, gave vision to warp into the high ground to attack the main base. With this change, that tactic would no longer be usable by the Protoss. I feel like the Protoss are being unfairly punished for a PvP issue in PvT and PvZ. This also stops some creative placement and simcitying such as placing a pylon the low ground, and then placing gateways on the high ground to make it difficult to unpower. A very very recent game I played today in fact, would unfairly be affected by this. I was cross positions on Antiga Shipyard, and I took the bottom gold. I put pylons on the low ground right near the gold mineral patches. Then I placed cannons up onto the high ground to help cover the watchtower. Another non cheese, non gimmick example I thought of: When you're going blink stalkers and you blink into the main, you can reinforce your blink stalkers by having a nearby pylon with power radius onto the high ground. Now you can't do that without having to use up a blink. You also cant use zealots of sentries for warp in reinforcements. P.S. This change still won't stop PvP on Taldarim from being 4 gate vs 4 gate. P.P.S I also think people need to realize this hurts Protoss harass way more than Protoss cheese. Cheese is reliant on lack of scouting, if you don't scout well, you're still going to get cheesed. Regardless of this change or not.
Whole post is in regard to something that isn't confirmed. Every post after that is influenced by that information. The Blizzard development team has had oversight in many areas perhaps this is one of them and they will re-add this feature back in. I see no need for them to have done this in the first place anyways.
|
i think will reward more warp prism play.
|
For those that say : for now Toss can no longer build in other pple's bases... pls recall that Terran Barracks and Factories can all float into the Toss' base and build in there. And that their HP is way more than a single measly pylon. And that they can be built outside and then floated in while the pylon has to be built there and has no chance of escaping.
|
Protoss is already crap early game and now they're removing a crapload of all ins from protoss. The other races can mindless macro up knowing that they're completely safe because Protoss can't put any pressure on in the early game or do any sort of all-in, as the Protoss is sitting in his base scared to expand because of T/Z all ins. A Protoss is always going to be behind. Blizzard better fix Protoss in the early or I don't know...
|
On October 24 2011 22:25 Gigglesstarcraft wrote: The only people that are saying it's a good change are zerg players, explains a lot. Movable burrowed banelings anyone?
This is an awful change, blizzard throws the coup de grâce on protoss.
i didnt know coup de grace was french for bucket of shit
|
On October 25 2011 14:05 headbus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 19:08 CatNzHat wrote: OMG huuuuuge freaking boost to TvP..... stupid 4gate + voidray builds are far too powerful against 1 rax CC builds, even with 4 or 5 barracks of marines, protoss almost always ends up ahead after warping 4 zealots onto the high ground, and you can't ever kill the pylon due to low ground stalker support. this
A 4 gate + stargate SHOULD punish a 1rax CC. Seriously, should a protoss expect to 1 gate expand and hold a 4rax?
|
On October 25 2011 08:24 Xardean wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 07:33 Reborn8u wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There are some things that I think need to be put in perspective as far as protoss in general. I see so many threads about protoss and I think a lot of people just don't "get it". Hopefully, after reading this you won't be thinking that I don't "get it".
Protoss has been surviving in competitive play through the use of gimmicky tactics. Things like 4 gates, nexus cancels, air play, 1 or 2 base all ins, turtling for the deathball, dt's, blink rushes, cannon rushes. I'm not going to talk about right or wrong in terms of these strategies, that depends on your philosophy on how the game "should" be played. I think options like this should be available but they should supplement strong core play. Which would probably be the general consensus. However, I would seriously doubt there ever would have been a protoss GSL champion (MC) if these gimmicks didn't exist and protoss had to rely on standard protoss play with the state it has been in.
I am of the opinion that these types of plays are so wide spread because playing standard as protoss is weaker than using gimmicks. One of the results of this was many people calling protoss overpowered because many of these gimmicky plays require a pretty specific response to stop. Thus, many of these things have been nerfed into the ground, while some of things that deal with them received buffs (roach range and infestors come to mind). Warp, blink, voidrays, forge build time, zealot build time, pylon radius, all of these things received substantial nerfs over the last year. Furthermore, the things that were buffed phoenix, archons, observers, immortals, warp prisms, are not core parts of protoss play, and don't significantly affect the early game. Which is why I stated that I feel gimmicks are stronger than standard play for protoss, a diligent zerg or terran can scout and respond and simply put the protoss far behind by delaying protoss from even taking his own natural on almost every map, by directly doing damage, or shutting down protoss gimmicks, because the build order protoss chose was scouted.
While PvZ seems to be a back and forth in win rates, mostly because of the metagame and some patching. PvT and PvP have been altered a lot as a direct of result from patches not metagame, at least much more so than pvz. The problem protoss as a race faces now is that with so many of their gimicks nerfed, and standard expansionist play being as delicate as it is, protoss are left with very little to rely on.
In PvT Protoss play seems stagnant, predictable, and it's faster and much cheaper for terran to counter protoss AOE than it is for protoss to produce it. Unfortunately, once terran starts producing medevacs, protoss is very weak agaisnt MMM without significant AOE damage available. The only real change lately has been more ghost usage, and more prism play but they haven't grossly changed the general play or altered the win rates. (now protoss's are making a warp prism with their 4 gate.....lol)
PvP is actually in turmoil because of all the changes to 4 gating. Really though, the 4 gate has been replaced by 3 gate robo, and the rule of "he who expands, dies" still applies to PvP in almost every pro match I've seen since that last patch. Truthfully though, I don't expect much diversity from mirror matches, and I'm pretty happy with it's current state except the fact that it is so 1 base focused.
Now most of what I've stated above is my opinion, but I'd like to think it is of a decently well formed opinion. The thing that really bothers me about them removing the pylon cliff warp in, is the same thing that bothers me about the new protoss units in hots. It's just more gimmicks, and they will be most likely be nerfed, just like these pylons. What protoss needs is a strong core. Protoss's core is the gateway, and the units from the gateway need some love.
Protoss needs to be balanced away from gimmicks and towards safe standard macro play. Taking away their gimmicks while not strengthening their core is what has led to protoss's current weaknesses in pro play. This is what protoss should be about, not blink stalkers that can't stand and fight, dragoons that put fear into people and are strong enough to walk where they want except against well prepared defenses or massed counters (like lings). Not warp ins all over the map to defeat someone who has weaker multitask or took many bases, macro and positioning to defeat someone who can't macro as well or isn't as tactically sound in battle. Protoss doesn't want to have to replicate other races units, protoss wants thier own flexible and cost effective units. Protoss don't want a-move colossus with stupid range and dmg, they want shuttle/reaver, which in a pro's hands can bring out oooo's and ahhhh's from an audience because of the skill and decision making involved in manipulating them. Protoss doesn't want to shut down mining for 45 seconds, they want to do what terran and zerg does, murder workers.
If they want to take away cliff warp in then fine, but for the love of starcraft protoss shouldn't be about gimmicks, it should be a strong mobile army of core units with good upgrades that zerg and terran fear an unfavorable engagement with, from the early game to the late game. An army that can be defeated by good caster usage, good positioning and better macro, not by an A move with more cost effective units and hard counters. Protoss should not be beaten by gimping protoss's economy and stopping any retaliation, 7 minutes into the game because the protoss's build got scouted. Protoss should be beaten by better decision making and better macro.
Sorry for the long rant, but this is the general way I feel about protoss. I've been playing rts's and starcraft a long time, and watching pro play for a long time. I honestly feel like Dustin Browder just doesn't "get it". Maybe I am just a dinosaur with outdated views and I'm the one who doesn't get it. But it saddens me to see such a beautiful race with such a proud history loose it's identity and be treated so unfairly. This guy. Right here. Agree 100%
This is indeed so right it hurts xd
|
this change comes like one year to late - protoss could be balanced by now if Blizz had had the guts to introduce this change right after the 4-gate-wars started
we wouldn't have needed the warpgate-tech-nerf, wouldn't have needed the pylon-radius-nerf...and so on; doh
I also fully agree that protoss doesn't need even more gimmicks; they need a solid buff/upgrade to make zealots/stalkers useful in lategame (no, chargelots are not "good" in PvT, they are a glorified meatshield that keeps your opponent busy while you try to avoid getting all your templars EMPed)
|
On October 25 2011 16:22 Reborn8u wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 14:05 headbus wrote:On October 24 2011 19:08 CatNzHat wrote: OMG huuuuuge freaking boost to TvP..... stupid 4gate + voidray builds are far too powerful against 1 rax CC builds, even with 4 or 5 barracks of marines, protoss almost always ends up ahead after warping 4 zealots onto the high ground, and you can't ever kill the pylon due to low ground stalker support. this A 4 gate + stargate SHOULD punish a 1rax CC. Seriously, should a protoss expect to 1 gate expand and hold a 4rax?
Omg but... but... I can't defend easily 4 gate 1 void with my 1 rax! Protoss imba!... lawl
|
On October 25 2011 16:22 Reborn8u wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 14:05 headbus wrote:On October 24 2011 19:08 CatNzHat wrote: OMG huuuuuge freaking boost to TvP..... stupid 4gate + voidray builds are far too powerful against 1 rax CC builds, even with 4 or 5 barracks of marines, protoss almost always ends up ahead after warping 4 zealots onto the high ground, and you can't ever kill the pylon due to low ground stalker support. this A 4 gate + stargate SHOULD punish a 1rax CC. Seriously, should a protoss expect to 1 gate expand and hold a 4rax?
You can hold 4 rax with 1 Gate FE, if you know it's coming (there are some all-ins you can't hold with it though). A Terran who sees a VR all-in coming can also hold that. This is how it should be, honestly. Fast Expand builds shouldn't just autolose to all-ins, they should be defendable with good scouting and execution. If an all-in does hardcounter a specific fast expansion, it should be really risky and force a very early commitment.
At the very least this is how it was in BW, and it worked fine. All-ins should be scary, and they should kill a player who's cutting corners, but they shouldn't just roll over almost anything effortlessly, like the 1/1/1 does for instance.
|
On October 25 2011 17:15 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 16:22 Reborn8u wrote:On October 25 2011 14:05 headbus wrote:On October 24 2011 19:08 CatNzHat wrote: OMG huuuuuge freaking boost to TvP..... stupid 4gate + voidray builds are far too powerful against 1 rax CC builds, even with 4 or 5 barracks of marines, protoss almost always ends up ahead after warping 4 zealots onto the high ground, and you can't ever kill the pylon due to low ground stalker support. this A 4 gate + stargate SHOULD punish a 1rax CC. Seriously, should a protoss expect to 1 gate expand and hold a 4rax? You can hold 4 rax with 1 Gate FE, if you know it's coming (there are some all-ins you can't hold with it though). A Terran who sees a VR all-in coming can also hold that. This is how it should be, honestly. Fast Expand builds shouldn't just autolose to all-ins, they should be defendable with good scouting and execution. If an all-in does hardcounter a specific fast expansion, it should be really risky and force a very early commitment. At the very least this is how it was in BW, and it worked fine. All-ins should be scary, and they should kill a player who's cutting corners, but they shouldn't just roll over almost anything effortlessly, like the 1/1/1 does for instance.
Yeah honestly this is how it should be. There is risk involved, if the Terran didn't expand then the Protoss can be in real trouble, they usually have to guess before doing the all-in. The Protoss can't do this build with absolute certainty. There are even complete hard counters like Cloak banshee
You compare this to 1/1/1 which Terran does without even giving a fuck what the Protoss is doing, and half the time even if you did the best known counter--1gate expo, you lose anyway...it just doesn't seem fair
|
On October 24 2011 18:35 deadmau wrote: If they did this, but fixed toss, I wouldn't mind. Strange how they keep beating a dead horse though lol. haha this is exactly what I thought as well. But on the other hand maybe this is just another way to force out the warp prism in play more often. Im afraid it will make all Protoss matchups a little slower and duller though.
|
On October 25 2011 17:15 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 16:22 Reborn8u wrote:On October 25 2011 14:05 headbus wrote:On October 24 2011 19:08 CatNzHat wrote: OMG huuuuuge freaking boost to TvP..... stupid 4gate + voidray builds are far too powerful against 1 rax CC builds, even with 4 or 5 barracks of marines, protoss almost always ends up ahead after warping 4 zealots onto the high ground, and you can't ever kill the pylon due to low ground stalker support. this A 4 gate + stargate SHOULD punish a 1rax CC. Seriously, should a protoss expect to 1 gate expand and hold a 4rax? You can hold 4 rax with 1 Gate FE, if you know it's coming (there are some all-ins you can't hold with it though). A Terran who sees a VR all-in coming can also hold that. This is how it should be, honestly. Fast Expand builds shouldn't just autolose to all-ins, they should be defendable with good scouting and execution. If an all-in does hardcounter a specific fast expansion, it should be really risky and force a very early commitment. At the very least this is how it was in BW, and it worked fine. All-ins should be scary, and they should kill a player who's cutting corners, but they shouldn't just roll over almost anything effortlessly, like the 1/1/1 does for instance.
4rax+scv's though will force a nexus cancel/kill as far as I know.
I do agree with the philosophy though that if you are doing a greedy build like 1rax FE, it should have margins for defending allins that are equal with 1gate FE vs 2rax. If I can lose the game by missing a FF by a hex, shouldn't you lose the game by mis-microing one of your marines? Also if you aren't prepared for the all-in, you damn well should lose.
|
While there at it they should go ahead and give bunkers high ground vision
|
Removal of a mechanic should be a last resort scenario. That's a guaranteed loss in gameplay diversity.
|
On October 25 2011 16:46 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 08:24 Xardean wrote:On October 25 2011 07:33 Reborn8u wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There are some things that I think need to be put in perspective as far as protoss in general. I see so many threads about protoss and I think a lot of people just don't "get it". Hopefully, after reading this you won't be thinking that I don't "get it".
Protoss has been surviving in competitive play through the use of gimmicky tactics. Things like 4 gates, nexus cancels, air play, 1 or 2 base all ins, turtling for the deathball, dt's, blink rushes, cannon rushes. I'm not going to talk about right or wrong in terms of these strategies, that depends on your philosophy on how the game "should" be played. I think options like this should be available but they should supplement strong core play. Which would probably be the general consensus. However, I would seriously doubt there ever would have been a protoss GSL champion (MC) if these gimmicks didn't exist and protoss had to rely on standard protoss play with the state it has been in.
I am of the opinion that these types of plays are so wide spread because playing standard as protoss is weaker than using gimmicks. One of the results of this was many people calling protoss overpowered because many of these gimmicky plays require a pretty specific response to stop. Thus, many of these things have been nerfed into the ground, while some of things that deal with them received buffs (roach range and infestors come to mind). Warp, blink, voidrays, forge build time, zealot build time, pylon radius, all of these things received substantial nerfs over the last year. Furthermore, the things that were buffed phoenix, archons, observers, immortals, warp prisms, are not core parts of protoss play, and don't significantly affect the early game. Which is why I stated that I feel gimmicks are stronger than standard play for protoss, a diligent zerg or terran can scout and respond and simply put the protoss far behind by delaying protoss from even taking his own natural on almost every map, by directly doing damage, or shutting down protoss gimmicks, because the build order protoss chose was scouted.
While PvZ seems to be a back and forth in win rates, mostly because of the metagame and some patching. PvT and PvP have been altered a lot as a direct of result from patches not metagame, at least much more so than pvz. The problem protoss as a race faces now is that with so many of their gimicks nerfed, and standard expansionist play being as delicate as it is, protoss are left with very little to rely on.
In PvT Protoss play seems stagnant, predictable, and it's faster and much cheaper for terran to counter protoss AOE than it is for protoss to produce it. Unfortunately, once terran starts producing medevacs, protoss is very weak agaisnt MMM without significant AOE damage available. The only real change lately has been more ghost usage, and more prism play but they haven't grossly changed the general play or altered the win rates. (now protoss's are making a warp prism with their 4 gate.....lol)
PvP is actually in turmoil because of all the changes to 4 gating. Really though, the 4 gate has been replaced by 3 gate robo, and the rule of "he who expands, dies" still applies to PvP in almost every pro match I've seen since that last patch. Truthfully though, I don't expect much diversity from mirror matches, and I'm pretty happy with it's current state except the fact that it is so 1 base focused.
Now most of what I've stated above is my opinion, but I'd like to think it is of a decently well formed opinion. The thing that really bothers me about them removing the pylon cliff warp in, is the same thing that bothers me about the new protoss units in hots. It's just more gimmicks, and they will be most likely be nerfed, just like these pylons. What protoss needs is a strong core. Protoss's core is the gateway, and the units from the gateway need some love.
Protoss needs to be balanced away from gimmicks and towards safe standard macro play. Taking away their gimmicks while not strengthening their core is what has led to protoss's current weaknesses in pro play. This is what protoss should be about, not blink stalkers that can't stand and fight, dragoons that put fear into people and are strong enough to walk where they want except against well prepared defenses or massed counters (like lings). Not warp ins all over the map to defeat someone who has weaker multitask or took many bases, macro and positioning to defeat someone who can't macro as well or isn't as tactically sound in battle. Protoss doesn't want to have to replicate other races units, protoss wants thier own flexible and cost effective units. Protoss don't want a-move colossus with stupid range and dmg, they want shuttle/reaver, which in a pro's hands can bring out oooo's and ahhhh's from an audience because of the skill and decision making involved in manipulating them. Protoss doesn't want to shut down mining for 45 seconds, they want to do what terran and zerg does, murder workers.
If they want to take away cliff warp in then fine, but for the love of starcraft protoss shouldn't be about gimmicks, it should be a strong mobile army of core units with good upgrades that zerg and terran fear an unfavorable engagement with, from the early game to the late game. An army that can be defeated by good caster usage, good positioning and better macro, not by an A move with more cost effective units and hard counters. Protoss should not be beaten by gimping protoss's economy and stopping any retaliation, 7 minutes into the game because the protoss's build got scouted. Protoss should be beaten by better decision making and better macro.
Sorry for the long rant, but this is the general way I feel about protoss. I've been playing rts's and starcraft a long time, and watching pro play for a long time. I honestly feel like Dustin Browder just doesn't "get it". Maybe I am just a dinosaur with outdated views and I'm the one who doesn't get it. But it saddens me to see such a beautiful race with such a proud history loose it's identity and be treated so unfairly. This guy. Right here. Agree 100% This is indeed so right it hurts xd Very nice write-up.
|
On October 25 2011 17:36 Cloak wrote: Removal of a mechanic should be a last resort scenario. That's a guaranteed loss in gameplay diversity.
amulet and flux vanes say "hello" 
I fully agree, nerfing should always be prefered to removing. Because you can always nerf stuff "into the ground" but keeping it in there to have a possible use even if it remains undiscovered for a long time.
Perfect example: speedreapers; nobody used them for a REALLY long time, suddenly we see reaper vs reaper in TvT.
|
On October 25 2011 17:35 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 17:15 Toadvine wrote:On October 25 2011 16:22 Reborn8u wrote:On October 25 2011 14:05 headbus wrote:On October 24 2011 19:08 CatNzHat wrote: OMG huuuuuge freaking boost to TvP..... stupid 4gate + voidray builds are far too powerful against 1 rax CC builds, even with 4 or 5 barracks of marines, protoss almost always ends up ahead after warping 4 zealots onto the high ground, and you can't ever kill the pylon due to low ground stalker support. this A 4 gate + stargate SHOULD punish a 1rax CC. Seriously, should a protoss expect to 1 gate expand and hold a 4rax? You can hold 4 rax with 1 Gate FE, if you know it's coming (there are some all-ins you can't hold with it though). A Terran who sees a VR all-in coming can also hold that. This is how it should be, honestly. Fast Expand builds shouldn't just autolose to all-ins, they should be defendable with good scouting and execution. If an all-in does hardcounter a specific fast expansion, it should be really risky and force a very early commitment. At the very least this is how it was in BW, and it worked fine. All-ins should be scary, and they should kill a player who's cutting corners, but they shouldn't just roll over almost anything effortlessly, like the 1/1/1 does for instance. 4rax+scv's though will force a nexus cancel/kill as far as I know. I do agree with the philosophy though that if you are doing a greedy build like 1rax FE, it should have margins for defending allins that are equal with 1gate FE vs 2rax. If I can lose the game by missing a FF by a hex, shouldn't you lose the game by mis-microing one of your marines? Also if you aren't prepared for the all-in, you damn well should lose.
Yeah, but if they pull enough scvs to actually threaten to kill you, you can always pull everything up your ramp, sac the Nexus, and 1 base Colossus it up. I mean, I've been known to complain about Terran 1 base all-ins, which are absolutely ridiculous when viewed as a single unscoutable package, but 4 rax isn't even close to the top of my list of worries.
I mean, if you really want to kill 1 Gate FE, use MVP's Marine/Tank all-in, I'm nearly 100% sure that's unholdable.
|
Hmm interesting change. I wonder if it would effect the Warpprism if you position it in a non accessible area in range of both low and high ground.
|
|
|
|