EPTI'm kinda indifferent at this point.
In HOTS, low pylons no longer power high ground - Page 13
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r_con
United States824 Posts
I'm kinda indifferent at this point. | ||
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Cornix
United States220 Posts
Protoss are struggling anyway because most of their units are so slow and their army moving is so punishable, and yet 1) Several mechanics that make a lot of sense for protoss in WoL are on terran, and 2) Several mechanics that make a lot of sense for protoss in HotS are again on terran. As for point 1) Protoss armies are slower, which means two things, protoss armies are very difficult to save (if an attack goes poorly you lose everything but stalkers pretty much), so IF you move out with an army for an attack and mess up you either lose or get way behind and have to scramble to get enough of an army to defend a counterpush, making protoss fairly turtle heavy until death ball is achieved. The second thing this means is that protoss can't hold as many bases as easily, and while yes warps help deal with drops (assuming you haven't JUST warped) most maps protoss struggle to comfortably hold more than 3-4 bases against most kinds of harass or aggression, which further increases turtle. So even accepting that protoss are limited to a lower amount of bases on most maps than the other races in *most* cases you would assume to balance this that protoss would get something to maximize the impact of every base they do get right? Well no, we get chronoboost, which is a great ability, but not as helpful as say... a mule would be. Mules maximize the effectiveness of each base you can get and hold by drastically increasing income from that base, yet that mechanic went to terran who can generally hold more bases than protoss (even though sometimes they use PF). Why? Terran has always been the race that can 'do' anything they want in a 'jack-of-all-trades' kind of way, which (to me) stylistically makes chronoboost a more fitting mechanic for terran than protoss (And I say this while I completely love chronoboost as a protoss). In HotS there was a chance to remedy this situation by giving protoss some sort of area control, helping protoss to at least have an easier time defending more bases to remedy some of the issues they have. However instead the biggest area control is going to terran instead, allowing terran with their more effective bases to more easily hold even more bases, especially now that warpins to the high ground will force protoss to harass bases by walking up ramps, making the area control against P indirectly more effective. :/ I just don't feel like blizzard can decide on what it wants protoss to play like stylistically. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
When I heard about Recall, I was so happy about being able to harass by having highground vision, warping in Zealots to stop mining and maybe snipe some tech, and then Recalling them back home. It's already quite fun to harass a Zerg with Zealots warped up a cliff after a Stargate opening, which otherwise does little to no damage in most cases. But no, clearly it was too powerful. Wasn't pylon range nerfed to make this kind of thing easier to deal with anyway? But it's not a problem bros, you can now spend 200 gas on an Oracle, so you can freeze their minerals and Roach Warren as they take a 4th base and go up to 80 drones uncontested. Can't wait for HotS, really. | ||
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Rorschach
United States623 Posts
I am just at a loss as to what the devs are thinking..... | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
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K_osss
United States113 Posts
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Rorschach
United States623 Posts
Pylons and warpin is a racial and unique aspect of protoss. Just like zergs supply/overlords can function as drop ships and terran buildings can fly! Homogenizing the races is not a good thing for diversity! Would you really like a game where every race had FF or where every race produced all units from the town hall? | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
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Teiwaz
Austria158 Posts
On October 24 2011 21:10 grobo wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 24 2011 21:06 Brotocol wrote: There's no way that Terran got the same treatment Protoss has. Look at the precious graph you posted earlier, protoss hasn't suffered nearly as much as the Zerg has, the gap in the ZvT graph is of cosmic proportions. You seriously need to realize that Toss is not the only race that has been suffering. I'm completely aware that every race will have to endure times where they are UP. Zerg has clearly suffered the most, whereas IMO Protoss are suffering not that much but more consistantly. Still waiting for Terran to be in such a position but for me it feels like as they just don't want to risk to upset the Terran community - and this difference in treatment is, IMO, the worst imbalance at all. | ||
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Vamp
United Kingdom184 Posts
On October 24 2011 22:00 grobo wrote: I agree with you that a terran has it infinitely easier to deal with toss gateway units, zerg however does not, zeals/stalkers crush lings/roaches, This amused me ! | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
Still though, surprised it was so under the radar. | ||
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ZiegFeld
351 Posts
Is that so bad? | ||
pPingu
Switzerland2892 Posts
On October 24 2011 23:22 ZiegFeld wrote: No more early game cheese. Is that so bad? Cheese is a way to punish greedy players so it could be | ||
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gruff
Sweden2276 Posts
On October 24 2011 23:22 ZiegFeld wrote: No more early game cheese. Is that so bad? As long as there is a will there is a way! Protoss will just have to start hiding pylons in their opponents base.  | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On October 24 2011 23:10 Rorschach wrote: People bitching about the other races having to commit to certain tech in order to circumvent ramps miss the whole point! Pylons and warpin is a racial and unique aspect of protoss. Just like zergs supply/overlords can function as drop ships and terran buildings can fly! Homogenizing the races is not a good thing for diversity! Would you really like a game where every race had FF or where every race produced all units from the town hall? This has nothing to do with homogenization, but risk vs reward and how much potential damage you can do with how little commitment. You snipe one, one Overlord full of Hydras, which has very little damage potential on its own, and it's 500/200 down the drain, not to mention how much it takes to even get to having Overlord drops. You lose one low-ground pylon, you lose 100 minerals, which, if it didn't get sniped, would allow you to warp in an infinite number of units directly into the main base of the opponent. The disparity in risk vs reward is huge. | ||
Raven068
United States90 Posts
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Rorschach
United States623 Posts
On October 24 2011 23:30 sitromit wrote: This has nothing to do with homogenization, but risk vs reward and how much potential damage you can do with how little commitment. You snipe one, one Overlord full of Hydras, which has very little damage potential on its own, and it's 500/200 down the drain, not to mention how much it takes to even get to having Overlord drops. You lose one low-ground pylon, you lose 100 minerals, which, if it didn't get sniped, would allow you to warp in an infinite number of units directly into the main base of the opponent. The disparity in risk vs reward is huge. If you want to talk about risk vs reward look at the terran race as a whole. It has the ability in many situations to turtle behind a lot of aggression makes it a low risk. Most people view terran as the most forgiving race to play when it comes to making mistakes. Mules make "allins" lower risk compared to other races... I believe your point is invalid especially considering how few options toss in the early/mid game have to pressure without suffering economically or being far behind in tech..... | ||
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Rob28
Canada705 Posts
And for the guy complaining earlier about how "easy" it is to lose a ton of investment to a lost dropship over a single lost pylon... try the nydus canal bud... not hugely expensive, way more effective than an elevator pylon. | ||
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