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In HOTS, low pylons no longer power high ground - Page 13

Forum Index > SC2 General
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r_con
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States824 Posts
October 24 2011 13:36 GMT
#241
This is a good design decision to me. This forces you to position your units better in defensive play, and gets rid of some of the annoying rushes. They will have to compensate possibly, but I'm not sure, but i have no problem with a race having to actually think about their reinforcements rather than just warp on the low ground.

I'm kinda indifferent at this point.
Flash Fan!
Cornix
Profile Joined June 2011
United States220 Posts
October 24 2011 13:51 GMT
#242
So they give protoss warp mechanics to make their mostly (aside from phoenix and blink stalker really) horrifically slow army some amount of speed in being able to warp things anywhere they have power and then just slowly strip back the amount of places they can actually warp even though protoss is already considered the worse race.
Protoss are struggling anyway because most of their units are so slow and their army moving is so punishable, and yet 1) Several mechanics that make a lot of sense for protoss in WoL are on terran, and 2) Several mechanics that make a lot of sense for protoss in HotS are again on terran.

As for point 1) Protoss armies are slower, which means two things, protoss armies are very difficult to save (if an attack goes poorly you lose everything but stalkers pretty much), so IF you move out with an army for an attack and mess up you either lose or get way behind and have to scramble to get enough of an army to defend a counterpush, making protoss fairly turtle heavy until death ball is achieved. The second thing this means is that protoss can't hold as many bases as easily, and while yes warps help deal with drops (assuming you haven't JUST warped) most maps protoss struggle to comfortably hold more than 3-4 bases against most kinds of harass or aggression, which further increases turtle. So even accepting that protoss are limited to a lower amount of bases on most maps than the other races in *most* cases you would assume to balance this that protoss would get something to maximize the impact of every base they do get right? Well no, we get chronoboost, which is a great ability, but not as helpful as say... a mule would be. Mules maximize the effectiveness of each base you can get and hold by drastically increasing income from that base, yet that mechanic went to terran who can generally hold more bases than protoss (even though sometimes they use PF). Why? Terran has always been the race that can 'do' anything they want in a 'jack-of-all-trades' kind of way, which (to me) stylistically makes chronoboost a more fitting mechanic for terran than protoss (And I say this while I completely love chronoboost as a protoss).

In HotS there was a chance to remedy this situation by giving protoss some sort of area control, helping protoss to at least have an easier time defending more bases to remedy some of the issues they have. However instead the biggest area control is going to terran instead, allowing terran with their more effective bases to more easily hold even more bases, especially now that warpins to the high ground will force protoss to harass bases by walking up ramps, making the area control against P indirectly more effective. :/

I just don't feel like blizzard can decide on what it wants protoss to play like stylistically.
iS.SunnY, writer extraordinaire. Miami CSL!
Reborn8u
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1761 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-24 13:55:16
October 24 2011 13:54 GMT
#243
If the keep this garbage up, they are going to loose a lot of toss players. Toss has never dominated, and yet it's been getting kicked in the balls over and over, as if every toss has a 60% win rate. I know I'm not going to play toss in hots..... Seriously, I'm beginning to think the balance team has a huge bias against toss.
:)
Toadvine
Profile Joined November 2010
Poland2234 Posts
October 24 2011 13:58 GMT
#244
This is just rubbing salt in the wound.

When I heard about Recall, I was so happy about being able to harass by having highground vision, warping in Zealots to stop mining and maybe snipe some tech, and then Recalling them back home. It's already quite fun to harass a Zerg with Zealots warped up a cliff after a Stargate opening, which otherwise does little to no damage in most cases. But no, clearly it was too powerful. Wasn't pylon range nerfed to make this kind of thing easier to deal with anyway?

But it's not a problem bros, you can now spend 200 gas on an Oracle, so you can freeze their minerals and Roach Warren as they take a 4th base and go up to 80 drones uncontested. Can't wait for HotS, really.
"There are always some Eskimos ready to instruct the Congolese on how to cope with heat waves." - S.J.Lec
Rorschach
Profile Joined May 2010
United States623 Posts
October 24 2011 14:00 GMT
#245
Give us 7.5 range back at least!

I am just at a loss as to what the devs are thinking.....
En Taro Adun, Executor!
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
October 24 2011 14:01 GMT
#246
I think it would be worth giving protoss that extra matrix in pylon radius they lost if they implement this new thing, but I don't think it would be the worst thing in the world if they didn't (non-protoss bias maybe?)
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
K_osss
Profile Joined June 2010
United States113 Posts
October 24 2011 14:02 GMT
#247
I'm not a fan of this change. I think it removes pylon utility and doesn't promote creative play in that it removes "options" from players. As a general rule i think that more options make more interesting gameplay.
Rorschach
Profile Joined May 2010
United States623 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-24 14:11:17
October 24 2011 14:10 GMT
#248
People bitching about the other races having to commit to certain tech in order to circumvent ramps miss the whole point!

Pylons and warpin is a racial and unique aspect of protoss. Just like zergs supply/overlords can function as drop ships and terran buildings can fly!

Homogenizing the races is not a good thing for diversity! Would you really like a game where every race had FF or where every race produced all units from the town hall?
En Taro Adun, Executor!
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
October 24 2011 14:12 GMT
#249
Finally. I've been calling for this forever. Please give us our pylon radius and ability to warp on ramp back tho. Not being able to defensively warp on ramp costs P games against Z.
Amber[LighT]
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States5078 Posts
October 24 2011 14:13 GMT
#250
This change should have happened patches ago. It's going to greatly change team games
"We have unfinished business, I and he."
Teiwaz
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria158 Posts
October 24 2011 14:14 GMT
#251
On October 24 2011 21:10 grobo wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 24 2011 21:06 Brotocol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2011 21:05 Teiwaz wrote:
On October 24 2011 20:58 exnomendei wrote:
...Ghosts used to remove all shields from anything Protoss, now it's 100.


Ah, yes. That one. Removing ALL shields AND ALL energy from my units was just so retarded OP that I completely wiped that from my memory.

They should go on and start nerfing that Snipe (cost more or less damage). And when they're at it, reduce that range so it matches Infestors/HT's - only then the Ghost will be a balanced unit IMO.


There's no way that Terran got the same treatment Protoss has.


Look at the precious graph you posted earlier, protoss hasn't suffered nearly as much as
the Zerg has, the gap in the ZvT graph is of cosmic proportions.

You seriously need to realize that Toss is not the only race that has been suffering.


I'm completely aware that every race will have to endure times where they are UP. Zerg has clearly suffered the most, whereas IMO Protoss are suffering not that much but more consistantly. Still waiting for Terran to be in such a position but for me it feels like as they just don't want to risk to upset the Terran community - and this difference in treatment is, IMO, the worst imbalance at all.
↑ Now is the time to make use of the skills and wisdom you have acquired. ↑
Vamp
Profile Joined June 2008
United Kingdom184 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-24 14:26:44
October 24 2011 14:18 GMT
#252
On October 24 2011 22:00 grobo wrote:
I agree with you that a terran has it infinitely easier to deal with toss gateway units, zerg however does not, zeals/stalkers crush lings/roaches,


This amused me !
`';..;'` http://www.facebook.com/Vamp.Sc2
darkscream
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada2310 Posts
October 24 2011 14:19 GMT
#253
Well, it's either this or they work harder on their maps to avoid the ridiculous positional imbalances (There are so many sickeningly cute places to stick bunkers and cannons). Blizz is good at race balance though. Not so good at map design..

Still though, surprised it was so under the radar.
ZiegFeld
Profile Joined April 2011
351 Posts
October 24 2011 14:22 GMT
#254
No more early game cheese.

Is that so bad?
pPingu
Profile Joined September 2011
Switzerland2892 Posts
October 24 2011 14:23 GMT
#255
On October 24 2011 23:22 ZiegFeld wrote:
No more early game cheese.

Is that so bad?


Cheese is a way to punish greedy players so it could be
gruff
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden2276 Posts
October 24 2011 14:23 GMT
#256
On October 24 2011 23:22 ZiegFeld wrote:
No more early game cheese.

Is that so bad?


As long as there is a will there is a way! Protoss will just have to start hiding pylons in their opponents base.
sitromit
Profile Joined June 2011
7051 Posts
October 24 2011 14:30 GMT
#257
On October 24 2011 23:10 Rorschach wrote:
People bitching about the other races having to commit to certain tech in order to circumvent ramps miss the whole point!

Pylons and warpin is a racial and unique aspect of protoss. Just like zergs supply/overlords can function as drop ships and terran buildings can fly!

Homogenizing the races is not a good thing for diversity! Would you really like a game where every race had FF or where every race produced all units from the town hall?


This has nothing to do with homogenization, but risk vs reward and how much potential damage you can do with how little commitment.

You snipe one, one Overlord full of Hydras, which has very little damage potential on its own, and it's 500/200 down the drain, not to mention how much it takes to even get to having Overlord drops.

You lose one low-ground pylon, you lose 100 minerals, which, if it didn't get sniped, would allow you to warp in an infinite number of units directly into the main base of the opponent.

The disparity in risk vs reward is huge.
Raven068
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States90 Posts
October 24 2011 14:42 GMT
#258
I wonder if this affects the Warp Prism as well.
www.youtube.com/Omega068
Rorschach
Profile Joined May 2010
United States623 Posts
October 24 2011 15:01 GMT
#259
On October 24 2011 23:30 sitromit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2011 23:10 Rorschach wrote:
People bitching about the other races having to commit to certain tech in order to circumvent ramps miss the whole point!

Pylons and warpin is a racial and unique aspect of protoss. Just like zergs supply/overlords can function as drop ships and terran buildings can fly!

Homogenizing the races is not a good thing for diversity! Would you really like a game where every race had FF or where every race produced all units from the town hall?


This has nothing to do with homogenization, but risk vs reward and how much potential damage you can do with how little commitment.

You snipe one, one Overlord full of Hydras, which has very little damage potential on its own, and it's 500/200 down the drain, not to mention how much it takes to even get to having Overlord drops.

You lose one low-ground pylon, you lose 100 minerals, which, if it didn't get sniped, would allow you to warp in an infinite number of units directly into the main base of the opponent.

The disparity in risk vs reward is huge.



If you want to talk about risk vs reward look at the terran race as a whole.
It has the ability in many situations to turtle behind a lot of aggression makes it a low risk.
Most people view terran as the most forgiving race to play when it comes to making mistakes.
Mules make "allins" lower risk compared to other races...

I believe your point is invalid especially considering how few options toss in the early/mid game have to pressure without suffering economically or being far behind in tech.....
En Taro Adun, Executor!
Rob28
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada705 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-24 15:05:18
October 24 2011 15:03 GMT
#260
I am suspecting more and more that the people at Bliz have nothing but disdain for anyone not playing terran... I can't see the sense in doing this, other than stopping cannon cheese, but surely there must be a better way.

And for the guy complaining earlier about how "easy" it is to lose a ton of investment to a lost dropship over a single lost pylon... try the nydus canal bud... not hugely expensive, way more effective than an elevator pylon.
"power overwhelming"... work, dammit, work!
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