|
On October 24 2011 18:40 Postman wrote:
I think that's just silly. Not only were highground warp ins very cool (and very defendable if you have vision of your base like you should) it also gave certain maps very exciting canon rush cheese tactics which I personally enjoy watching.
iNcontroL fan? 
|
This removes even more potential for entertaining and creative play. Good job Blizzard!
|
Finally P won't be able to build units in opponents base, just like the other races. Plus, you can still use Warp Prism.
|
On October 24 2011 21:47 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 21:44 Qikz wrote:On October 24 2011 21:30 Brotocol wrote:On October 24 2011 21:30 []Phase[] wrote:
Nerf to rushes, indirect buff to defence.
I like it. Nerf 3rax then, and bunkers can't be refunded anymore. Deal? I don't think anyone has a problem with the nerf conceptually. But the nerfs are being applied inconsistently as hell. e.g. 4gate is considered a long standing problem, but not 3rax? The difference between 4gate and 3 rax is light and day. 3 rax units actually have to come from the opponents base where as 4gate just warps straight in next to you. Gateway units are balanced for this specific offensive scenario. 2 zealots do less dps than 2 marines. 1 stalker does less dps than 1 marine. MM eats them aliveeee (tasteless voice). MM counters the hell out of such warp-ins so badly. Zerg is a closer fight, but it's still balanced such that roaches wreck zealots and are more cost efficient than stalkers. The only "hairy" situation is when your ramp gets FFed. Beyond all of this, you can just scout the pylon.edit: Also, derp. Proxy rax.
I agree with you that a terran has it infinitely easier to deal with toss gateway units, zerg however does not, zeals/stalkers crush lings/roaches, but who are we kidding, we are both going to come up with our own scenarios that benefit our own arguments.
And a FF'd ramp is not a "hairy" situation, it's over. Assuming you have 2 sentries and be able to warp in more you have more then enough time to slaughter whatever is in the main and there is nothing your opponent can do about it.
|
Switzerland2892 Posts
On October 24 2011 21:56 ViperPL wrote:
Finally P won't be able to build units in opponents base, just like the other races. Plus, you can still use Warp Prism.
It's stupid to say things like that. Should terran buildings not be able to fly because the other races can't do that?
If you want all the races to have the same characteristic, then why should we have three different races? Let's just keep one.
|
I don't see the need to even remove any cheesey plays. Every race has it's own cheese, but apparently they need to nerft toss (again). We already are the worst when it comes to early pressure, and this just makes it that much worse. By the time LoV comes out, pylons will have a radius of 2, WG will take 5 minutes, and we will have an air force that has no attack :'(
|
On October 24 2011 22:00 grobo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 21:47 Brotocol wrote:On October 24 2011 21:44 Qikz wrote:On October 24 2011 21:30 Brotocol wrote:On October 24 2011 21:30 []Phase[] wrote:
Nerf to rushes, indirect buff to defence.
I like it. Nerf 3rax then, and bunkers can't be refunded anymore. Deal? I don't think anyone has a problem with the nerf conceptually. But the nerfs are being applied inconsistently as hell. e.g. 4gate is considered a long standing problem, but not 3rax? The difference between 4gate and 3 rax is light and day. 3 rax units actually have to come from the opponents base where as 4gate just warps straight in next to you. Gateway units are balanced for this specific offensive scenario. 2 zealots do less dps than 2 marines. 1 stalker does less dps than 1 marine. MM eats them aliveeee (tasteless voice). MM counters the hell out of such warp-ins so badly. Zerg is a closer fight, but it's still balanced such that roaches wreck zealots and are more cost efficient than stalkers. The only "hairy" situation is when your ramp gets FFed. Beyond all of this, you can just scout the pylon.edit: Also, derp. Proxy rax. I agree with you that a terran has it infinitely easier to deal with toss gateway units, zerg however does not, zeals/stalkers crush lings/roaches, but who are we kidding, we are both going to come up with our own scenarios that benefit our own arguments. And a FF'd ramp is not a "hairy" situation, it's over. Assuming you have 2 sentries and be able to warp in more you have more then enough time to slaughter whatever is in the main and there is nothing your opponent can do about it.
* Oops, I made a typo btw. 1 zealot does less dps than 2 marines. My bad, there.
* FF'd ramp is indeed a pain in the ass to deal with as Zerg, much like 6pool can be an auto-loss for Protoss. The remedy is scouting!
* The problem is inconsistency. Other races' cheese doesn't seem to be getting nerfed. For example, Blizzard is currently testing 1-1-1 as a "metagame problem from Protoss players." Blizzard is always avoidant as hell when it comes to nerfing Terran.
David Kim seems to do everything in his power to avoid nerfing other cheeses, particularly Terran cheese. It's not a conspiracy, and it's probably not intentional. But the bias is there.
|
Good change, as long as they restore the old Pylon range which was nerfed as a direct result of too easy warp ins on the high ground (PvP especially). If you want reliable in-enemy-base warpins, just use the Warp Prism.
|
This is a pretty big nerf...
4 gate is at a good spot atm in all the match ups
|
On October 24 2011 22:00 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 21:56 ViperPL wrote:
Finally P won't be able to build units in opponents base, just like the other races. Plus, you can still use Warp Prism. It's stupid to say things like that. Should terran buildings not be able to fly because the other races can't do that? If you want all the races to have the same characteristic, then why should we have three different races? Let's just keep one.
there's a huge difference between saying that map traversal time should matter and saying that all the races are the same because their units have to walk from their production buildings to where they are going to attack.
|
You keep saying that this will affect PvP and PvT but it's not going to change anything except cheese.
It wont even change too much cheese either since you can just warp in the pylon on the highground.
Also you keep saying "why kick the dead horse" and "ahh, PvT is gonna be stupid now!" But maybe they nerf toss to make them less op vs zerg, who knows, blizzard will have their way and we will forever be their bitches.
|
On October 24 2011 22:07 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 22:00 grobo wrote:On October 24 2011 21:47 Brotocol wrote:On October 24 2011 21:44 Qikz wrote:On October 24 2011 21:30 Brotocol wrote:On October 24 2011 21:30 []Phase[] wrote:
Nerf to rushes, indirect buff to defence.
I like it. Nerf 3rax then, and bunkers can't be refunded anymore. Deal? I don't think anyone has a problem with the nerf conceptually. But the nerfs are being applied inconsistently as hell. e.g. 4gate is considered a long standing problem, but not 3rax? The difference between 4gate and 3 rax is light and day. 3 rax units actually have to come from the opponents base where as 4gate just warps straight in next to you. Gateway units are balanced for this specific offensive scenario. 2 zealots do less dps than 2 marines. 1 stalker does less dps than 1 marine. MM eats them aliveeee (tasteless voice). MM counters the hell out of such warp-ins so badly. Zerg is a closer fight, but it's still balanced such that roaches wreck zealots and are more cost efficient than stalkers. The only "hairy" situation is when your ramp gets FFed. Beyond all of this, you can just scout the pylon.edit: Also, derp. Proxy rax. I agree with you that a terran has it infinitely easier to deal with toss gateway units, zerg however does not, zeals/stalkers crush lings/roaches, but who are we kidding, we are both going to come up with our own scenarios that benefit our own arguments. And a FF'd ramp is not a "hairy" situation, it's over. Assuming you have 2 sentries and be able to warp in more you have more then enough time to slaughter whatever is in the main and there is nothing your opponent can do about it. * Oops, I made a typo btw. 1 zealot does less dps than 2 marines. My bad, there. * FF'd ramp is indeed a pain in the ass to deal with as Zerg, much like 6pool can be an auto-loss for Protoss. The remedy is scouting! * The problem is inconsistency. Other races' cheese doesn't seem to be getting nerfed. For example, Blizzard is currently testing 1-1-1 as a "metagame problem from Protoss players." David Kim seems to do everything in his power to avoid nerfing other cheeses, particularly Terran cheese. It's not a conspiracy, and it's probably not intentional. But the bias is there.
I agree that Terran cheese needs to be dealt with, they are ridiculously strong and they sacrifice more or less nothing, but i honestly don't think that Zerg has that many different cheeses to begin with, 6/7/8-pools are not getting nerfed per se, but now that toss is getting the Arc Shield it more or less nullifies early pools.
|
Encouraging Warp Prism play even more? Going to have to see how this plays out. I don't mind it so much at the moment.
|
On October 24 2011 22:16 grobo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 22:07 Brotocol wrote:On October 24 2011 22:00 grobo wrote:On October 24 2011 21:47 Brotocol wrote:On October 24 2011 21:44 Qikz wrote:On October 24 2011 21:30 Brotocol wrote:On October 24 2011 21:30 []Phase[] wrote:
Nerf to rushes, indirect buff to defence.
I like it. Nerf 3rax then, and bunkers can't be refunded anymore. Deal? I don't think anyone has a problem with the nerf conceptually. But the nerfs are being applied inconsistently as hell. e.g. 4gate is considered a long standing problem, but not 3rax? The difference between 4gate and 3 rax is light and day. 3 rax units actually have to come from the opponents base where as 4gate just warps straight in next to you. Gateway units are balanced for this specific offensive scenario. 2 zealots do less dps than 2 marines. 1 stalker does less dps than 1 marine. MM eats them aliveeee (tasteless voice). MM counters the hell out of such warp-ins so badly. Zerg is a closer fight, but it's still balanced such that roaches wreck zealots and are more cost efficient than stalkers. The only "hairy" situation is when your ramp gets FFed. Beyond all of this, you can just scout the pylon.edit: Also, derp. Proxy rax. I agree with you that a terran has it infinitely easier to deal with toss gateway units, zerg however does not, zeals/stalkers crush lings/roaches, but who are we kidding, we are both going to come up with our own scenarios that benefit our own arguments. And a FF'd ramp is not a "hairy" situation, it's over. Assuming you have 2 sentries and be able to warp in more you have more then enough time to slaughter whatever is in the main and there is nothing your opponent can do about it. * Oops, I made a typo btw. 1 zealot does less dps than 2 marines. My bad, there. * FF'd ramp is indeed a pain in the ass to deal with as Zerg, much like 6pool can be an auto-loss for Protoss. The remedy is scouting! * The problem is inconsistency. Other races' cheese doesn't seem to be getting nerfed. For example, Blizzard is currently testing 1-1-1 as a "metagame problem from Protoss players." David Kim seems to do everything in his power to avoid nerfing other cheeses, particularly Terran cheese. It's not a conspiracy, and it's probably not intentional. But the bias is there. I agree that Terran cheese needs to be dealt with, they are ridiculously strong and they sacrifice more or less nothing, but i honestly don't think that Zerg has that many different cheeses to begin with, 6/7/8-pools are not getting nerfed per se, but now that toss is getting the Arc Shield it more or less nullifies early pools.
True, I hadn't factored in Arc Shield. I guess my main gripe with this nerf is PvT.
|
On October 24 2011 21:56 ViperPL wrote:
Finally P won't be able to build units in opponents base, just like the other races. Plus, you can still use Warp Prism.
Yeah, let's force Protoss to always go all 3 tech routes to have any success at all.
|
The only people that are saying it's a good change are zerg players, explains a lot. Movable burrowed banelings anyone?
This is an awful change, blizzard throws the coup de grâce on protoss.
|
Well, I'm not certain, so far I have only this one source.
I think it has to be this way, otherwhise you would just use a pylon on low ground and warpin a cannon highground, if the defending toss tries to destroy the cannon that can be build really early (you do not have to wait for a lowground cannon ->) you just use the "defensive ability" and make your pylon a cannon too. That would simply be unstoppable.
I hope they will fix it in another way though.
Either way I'm happy and we have to wait till it is released to know what's up for sure.
|
On October 24 2011 22:00 grobo wrote:
I agree with you that a terran has it infinitely easier to deal with toss gateway units, zerg however does not, zeals/stalkers crush lings/roaches, but who are we kidding, we are both going to come up with our own scenarios that benefit our own arguments.
And a FF'd ramp is not a "hairy" situation, it's over. Assuming you have 2 sentries and be able to warp in more you have more then enough time to slaughter whatever is in the main and there is nothing your opponent can do about it.
Stalkers are killed by zerglings while zealots are killed by roaches. In other words it depend on the engagement and unit composition. Sentries do change this quite a lot, but then you are comparing a very gas heavy composition to a nearly gasless composition. In other words, the most expensive army wins.
|
I dont like this in combination with the other pylon changes. If they implement this i would insist the give us our 7.5 range back.
|
They should remove waprgate mechanics all together and give us units with powerful habilities instead of guys that get there fast and die faster.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
