EPT[P]New Units, Abilities, Evolutions, & Removals - Page 4
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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Ryder.
1117 Posts
I feel same way about Oracle mineral coating; from a spectators point of view it is terribly lame, stuff like baneling mines/nukes are so fun to watch because of the capacity for epic damage, and the moments of tension as you watch an overlord of banelings head towards a mineral line or a nuke called down, culminating in excitement when it works, or when crisis is avoided by expert response. Even with harassment that doesn't end in a huge explosion (like banshee harass) you can still be amazed at how much damage can be done with a little expert micro. When you look at the Oracle's mineral goop, there is no excitement or tension, no potential for game ending damage and destruction...it just flys in with decent speed, goops shit up and leaves. There is no capacity for creative play, it doesn't reward good decision making or micro, its just the same repetitive fly in, goop up and leave, then watch as your opponent attacks it with his workers/whatever units he has around, over and over again... | ||
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ETisME
12700 Posts
Swarm host is interesting, hopefully they can balance it well. The protoss units excites me the most to be honest, all these new possible strategies with these units are unimagineable | ||
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p1cKLes
United States342 Posts
I think it's really hard to make a good sound judgement call on it...if you haven't actually played it. I thought they did a good job. | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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red4ce
United States7313 Posts
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On October 23 2011 15:50 ArvickHero wrote: swarm host sounds pretty weak at what its supposed to do (control area), why not just bring back the lurker :l The swarm host seems comparable, honestly. Spawns 90 HP units 2 at a time, basically giving you an infinite army of super-zerglings harassing any expansion or softening up a siege line, and unless the locusts have a timer/cap, you could easily hold back 5 swarm hosts until you have enough locusts to overrun the opponent's army without risking any losses. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On October 23 2011 15:54 Daralii wrote: The swarm host seems comparable, honestly. Spawns 90 HP units 2 at a time, basically giving you an infinite army of super-zerglings harassing any expansion or softening up a siege line, and unless the locusts have a timer/cap, you could easily hold back 5 swarm hosts until you have enough locusts to overrun the opponent's army without risking any losses. I imagine that will be the case. If you could just build up those locusts with no limitation then Zerg would be unstoppable lol. Swarm Host sounds like it'd be pretty good in battles (locusts tanking and messin w/ enemy AI etc), but as a defensive purpose it kinda sucks (and therefore cannot control area like Lurkers). | ||
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ETisME
12700 Posts
On October 23 2011 15:36 0neder wrote: Why do people like the reaper change? it makes no sense at all, gameplay or otherwise. it improves their scouting ability, which is what it is mainly used for now | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On October 23 2011 16:03 ArvickHero wrote: I imagine that will be the case. If you could just build up those locusts with no limitation then Zerg would be unstoppable lol. Swarm Host sounds like it'd be pretty good in battles (locusts tanking and messin w/ enemy AI etc), but as a defensive purpose it kinda sucks (and therefore cannot control area like Lurkers). At least then people might stop complaining that it's UP? :p Personally, I think that hosts and lurkers have a different enough way of controlling space that they aren't really comparable, but I guess people really love their spider hydras. | ||
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ObserverSix2One
Israel115 Posts
i think that most of the changes could work if they tweak them correctly, for example the hydra speed - at hive tech = bad, at lair = good. baneling burrow - at lair = imba? at hive=useless, but, if u make a special animation to the banelings when they are moving underground so it is easy to spot, then they could be useful in TvP while still not being imba, i don't think that burrowed banes movement have any use against Terran, just make raven/scan and missile turret near your planetary - which u make anyway to counter mutas, and u will be ok. | ||
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RaiKageRyu
Canada4773 Posts
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On October 23 2011 16:10 RaiKageRyu wrote: I dont truly consider Swarm Host a siege unit. To me, it's just a cannon fodder generator. Isn't the entire point of zerg to generate cannon fodder until there's just too much of it to stop? | ||
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Anarion55
United States72 Posts
I only play toss, so I'll keep my comments confined to them. 1. Replicant. This is entirely based on cost. If it's cheap enough that it could make sense to copy the new warhounds or swarm hosts then it will be good. If it's only good by copying a major caster, it will probably suck. One idea to chew on though: pvp blink stalkers transferring into replicants if your opponent has at least one immortal. Now you'll have 5 immortals o_o 2. Oracle: I think this unit depends entirely on its speed and therefore how well it can zip into a base without suiciding into AA units. It should be primarily about the building shift thing and the other two abilities just complement that. For example, let's say that you do a stargate build vs. Terran. Build an oracle first, go to their base and use preordain to check if they're researching cloak or siege mode. If they are, shift the starport or factory out, stalling enough for you to prep defenses. If you have leftover energy, stop the mineral patch with a mule on it and see if your opponent notices. If the oracle is fast enough to muck around without getting killed by vikings or marines, then this would work out pretty well. 3. Tempest. This unit better be amazing. At 75s build time and 300/300 cost, one tempest should immediately swing air power in my favor. It looks cool and I'd like to think that the aoe will be strong enough to scale really well, such that ~4 tempests could win the sky not only vs. mass muta but also vs. mass corruptor or mass viking, making colossus/tempest into a viable endgame when you're on 4+ bases. This is a nice unit though because it's inherently in the right spot and can be balanced by tweaking numbers such as range or damage. 4. nexus changes: I'm probably in the minority here, but I like the gas steal arc shield rush. It's super gimmicky, but so is a 6-pool or a bunker rush. It's also really easy to stop, since you can just pull stuff to kill the gas while it's building. It should probably require the gateway before you can activate the power, maybe even the core in order to give the opponent time to get rid of it, but punishing inattentive opponents is a good thing. The recall, on the other hand, is just really flavorful and super amazing. It's much better at offense since you can move out and attack then escape. I'd love to see something with blink stalkers into a base followed by a recall. On defense, the length of the stun might prevent you from saving most of your expo, but we'll see. | ||
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Shebuha
Canada1335 Posts
Shedder - sounds stupid Replicant - totally stupid Oracle - absolutely stupid because you can 'block mineral fields'. ?!~?!?!??!?!?! Removal of Carrier - really stupid because they never tweaked it or changed it's build time... I don't care how much David Kim tested it, I want to see Huk and Naniwa use it to beat other top pros in a game that doesn't go past an hour. Removal of Mothership - I guess that's okay.. it doesn't jive well because the other two races didn't have a 'one time' unit that had cool abilites. Change of Thor to a 'one time' unit - Stupid. The Thor is good as a whole, and has places where it is needed, like vs. large muta balls and in SCV pull allins. This makes so sense to me. Swarm Host - Why wouldn't you just give us Lurker... Why do you have to make a new unit that doesn't look as cool and has a less cool attack. Also, Hydras are still useless, which brings to m to... Hydralisk - Speed upgrade, awesome! Why would you make it Hive tech? Too imbalanced to have fast Hydras in the midgame where you want to have them? Viper - Ocular Parasite - See, this doesn't make sense to me. Overseers were great after the cost reduction, and now you just removed them and decided to give this strange ability. What Zerg unit in the midgame has enough survivability that you would want to give it detection permanently? At least your opponent's units won't auto-target Overseers. Corrupter Removal - As a player who played Zerg up until high Diamond... I approve. But the Viper had better be a suitable replacement Viper - ability to pull units to them - WOW. WOW. "hi colossus, come over here into this swarm of roaches.." Nexus Recall - "yeah, MOthership is too good, has recall.. let's just get rid of Mothership and give Recall to the building you start the game with." Baneling Burrow Movement - Maybe Terrans will make Ravens so that they don't have to scan every 10 seconds after they move out? I'm very skeptical of this expansion... it sounds like rather than trying to fill rolls and tweak units that needed tweaking to be stronger overall (corrupter/hydra) or were never used (carrier) they just removed them, gave them stupid abilities and/or added strange new units that are more complex, or have ridiculous abilites (oracle). I'm in HUGE favour of small tweaks and gradual changes rather than adding 2-3 units for each race all at once... X.X EDIT: the Nexus - warp in cannon on building thing - is really cool, because if a Zerg ever 6 pools you it makes them 80% more stupid!!! This change is epic because now 1/3 Zerg allins should never be seen again. | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
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Geovu
Estonia1344 Posts
On October 23 2011 14:11 Falling wrote: To stay with the Tetris metaphor, I feel like Protoss has far to many square blocks (collosi 1a units) and I was hoping some of them would be taking out to be replaced by some of those other more interesting blocks. The way I see Protoss in the Tetris metaphor is that they are trying to take these blocks out of the game and try to bludgeon their opponent, hoping that they will fall unconscious quickly before the cops show up. It doesn't matter if their opponent is a ninja or has a gun, they still have to run with their fat nerd body to catch up and hope he can bludgeon him to death in the same way. If he tries to throw the blocks to hit the ninja gunwielder or to avoid getting blood on his shirt so the cops don't take him in, Mother Protoss comes in, slaps him and takes his blocks away (Void Ray, Warp Gate and Mothership much?) I mean, just look at warp prism harass. It just looks so unnatural. Sending in thousands of minerals worth of zealots hoping that their opponent doesn't look at that part of the map until they kill the expansion? I mean seriously. Also, once HoTS comes out Protoss' better not find any actual cool ways to use these units besides putting them in their 1 army control group, otherwise Blizzard will come in and snatch that unit away, leaving poor Protoss out alone in the wilderness to fend off wolves, bears, and firebreathing dune buggy mechs, Sorry for getting carried away with that metaphor btw. | ||
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NeWnAr
Singapore231 Posts
Ultra charge should be remade into a ground-level charge not a burrow charge. Tunnelings. Nice. Not really sure on the corruption removal. It has to depend on things like whether vipers have a normal attack. Siphon is just really weird. So C&C. Hellion transformations. No comment. Yet. Reaper changes...eh..not really sure cause ever since the factory nerf they have hardly been used. But I guess the whole hp regen thing matches up well with being a hit&run unit. Ghosts can cloak while firing nukes even now. Its just that now it's duration based instead of toggled. No comments yet. Battlecruiser charge. Marvelous. IM_mvp would be intrigued. Nexus recall is good, provided they balance the stun time properly. Maybe in accordance to distance from the nexus. Nexus autocannons. I guess this auto-shuts down 6-pools. Undecided. Sucks to have the overseer removed. Seriously. The viper definitely costs alot more and are higher up in the tech tree. Why is the carrier removed? Makes completely no sense. Tempests don't cover their roles. Mommaship is gone, well, I'm not so sure about this one but they seem to have moved the mass recall to the Nexus and confined it as a pure defensive ability. Thor's removal shoulda been good but the replacement. It's going backwards. Viper ocular parasite. Really nice concept. But single-use only means you definitely need more vipers to make more detectors. Can they give buildings the parasite? Reverse dark swarm is the best thing I've seen here. Perfect against a certain race which I won't play because I have self-respect. Woots no melee units! The viper grab is gimmicky, but I think that it's quite a perfect answer to things like colossus range upgrades and siege mode. Zerg's current max ground attack range is 7(upgraded hydras), which is pitiful. Question is, can it be used on air units too(pulling battlecruiser)? The viper is really a very good unit all around, but the biggest question is that whether or not they will be given a normal attack or be given the infestor treatment. Being a pure support caster like the sentry, there is no reason not to give them a normal attack. The swarm host. Just WTF were they thinking. It's just really really gimmicky. From the videos I've seen, the spawn rate isn't spectacular so their usefulness will depend on how long the swarmlings can live. If they are broodling standard then seriously this unit sucks. The only situation where is see it as viable is countering drops by burrowing a few in your base/mineral line. Am I missing something or is the warhound just a marauder with half of Thor anti-air rockets? This unit is just lame. The shredder will definitely add some really interesting gameplay to all Terran matchups. A small scale rip-field generator. But I would prefer it if they wouldn't stop while friendlies are around but they will friendly fire. Terran's are always the guys who friendly fire. Even the lore says so. Battle hellions. They looks damn ridiculous to me, and I still have no idea how they work. If the transformation grants extra hp, can they transform back to normal hellions? How is the hp calculated? New Thor ability is just another way to fire a nuke. No. The new Thor unit is just what they had in the beta/campaign(Odin). No. The oracle mineral blocking is simply too gimmicky. It would be over or underpowered based on how the barriers can be removed. Building spying is just too much. Protoss already has a cloaked detector unit. Why give them even more detection? They are not a reactive race. Well at least not as reactive as Zerg. So how come Zerg has shit detection options while toss gets to scout everything? The temporary building removal is like the ultimate version of the overseer contaminate. Will have to see the cost-duration balance but in general a nice concept. Replicant. Weird, makes no sense and possibly OP. Replicating immortals/Archons/ravens/siege tanks. *shudders* Tempests are nice in design but I don't get why Toss is getting another anti-light air unit on top of the phoenix. Does not replace the Carrier IMHO. | ||
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Anarion55
United States72 Posts
On October 23 2011 16:14 Daralii wrote: Regarding the oracle's speed, it's apparently significantly faster than a hellion. That's, actually potentially pretty strong. Call it gimmicky if you want, but if 2 of these things are zipping around the map, they are going to heavily frustrate an opponent. Forget the stupid mineral ability, that's just gravy for when you have extra micro time and you need something to do. The building shift with that speed could be nuts. Here's a scenario. Stargate opener vs. zerg, harass w/ a void and phoenix, get a couple of oracles and shift out their roach warren and spawning pool. Take your third unmolested. | ||
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