EPT[P]New Units, Abilities, Evolutions, & Removals - Page 3
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10383 Posts
anyways I would love the thor unit I don't understand why they can't keep the mothership in too, then i mean if they wanted protoss to have a super unit cus they're protoss, and wanted to replace mothership, then fine, but they're switching the super unit to terran now | ||
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_Search_
Canada180 Posts
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SpoR
United States1542 Posts
On October 23 2011 14:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: battle hellions have less attack speed? that doesn't sound right o.o anyways I would love the thor unit I don't understand why they can't keep the mothership in too, then i mean if they wanted protoss to have a super unit cus they're protoss, and wanted to replace mothership, then fine, but they're switching the super unit to terran now yea makes me wonder if zerg is getting the flying thing with spines all over it for Legacy of the void and then they will be like lol jk heres the mofo ship back u all got 1 per deck units. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
TvZ Terran gets a better counter to Mutalisks in the Warhound, an ability to that allows those mass Hellions that you used to harass to become effective front line fighters, and a unit that can control spaces alone to limit harrassment, especially vs low HP units like Zerglings. What does this mean? Zerglings as a main fighter will become worthless versus Hellions, and as a harrassment unit, they will be ineffective against Shredders. Mutalisks will also become weaker. So what will Zerg build? Hydras which will still get eaten by Tanks and Hellions? Roaches which are Hellion and Marauder meat? Going to be interesting... hopefully those two new units are good. I'm worried that Zerg will lose their ability to harrass while Terran won't and TvZ will become incredibly one-sided. You can now raid with Hellions and then use them effectively in big fights? But Zerg loses their unit that can do that in the Zergling and you expect the game to be balanced in the end? Blizzard is almost saying "lets stop Zerg harass, but not let them stop Terran harass, see how that works for TvZ..." TvP In TvP, apparently Mech more viable with Hellions being able to counter Zealots better and Warhounds getting a bonus against everything except Zealots basically. Hopefully they will weaken bio to compensate for this, but they said nothing about that. People aren't really having too many issues with mass Chargelots, sure it forces some micro from the Terran player, but the fact is TvP has been skewed toward the Terran for a long time. Interestingly it could be the Sentry that saves Protoss. Unless the Warhound is considered a massive unit it won't be able to break forcefields, and this could be the saving grace against Terran Mech for Protoss, just dividing up a force of Terran units bit by bit. PvZ In PvZ, we can see the Colossus being sucked into swarms by Vipers, only to have the Protoss replicate the Viper and pull it right back. Would be pretty odd. Mutalisks also get a hard counter in the Tempest, and this makes Phoenixes (a very situational unit to begin with) less useful in PvZ. The new Zerg artillery unit is interesting, but will probably end up as Colossus fodder. We'll have to see how it all pans out. I'm really worried about TvZ though. Zerg depends so much on harass, and it makes the match up interesting, and the changes to Terran help limit harassment, while also increasing the potential for Terran to harass (ie Terran wins a big battle, converts all Hellions into Speed mode, and roasts all Zerg workers for a quick GG). As a Protoss player, I hope TvP doesn't become even worse too. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On October 23 2011 14:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: battle hellions have less attack speed? that doesn't sound right o.o anyways I would love the thor unit I don't understand why they can't keep the mothership in too, then i mean if they wanted protoss to have a super unit cus they're protoss, and wanted to replace mothership, then fine, but they're switching the super unit to terran now Well, it does look like Battle Hellions have a different cone of fire compared to normal Hellions. Right now, it looks very similar to the cone of fire used by the campaign Firebat. | ||
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lawls544
United States36 Posts
WoL: Marines eat zealots/immortals/air, Marauders eat stalkers/colossus HotS: Marines eat zealots/immortals/air, Warhound eats stalker/sentry/colossus/air even harder than marauders? | ||
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Meteora.GB
Canada2479 Posts
On October 23 2011 14:07 Dommk wrote: These polls are just the typical knee jerk reactions. For the most part, at least for Protoss, they are adding completely new unit concepts to the game using Mechanics we have never used before, thus the vast majority of players can't accurately gauge their strength. Also, people shouldn't be surprised that Protoss didn't get any shiny units on the level of the Viper or Swarm host. Zerg were really lacking in that department and Terran needed something more to make Mech more viable against Protoss. But Protoss already had a ton of different units for every situation, what they really lacked was units that had depth and could reward skilled players. I like to think of this like Tetris, Zerg are getting the Line piece, Terran getting the L block and Protoss end up getting the S and Z blocks. No one likes getting S and Z blocks, since those are the blocks that usually end up fucking over the players the most. Sometimes it is not even clear where you should put it, but in the end those are the pieces that separate the good players from the bad the most :p Bwuahahaha, this is golden. | ||
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
Least favorite: Thor (no hero units please), Replicant (For it's cost there is no reason to replicate anything other than an SCV for mules, and you shouldn't be able to add another race's macro mechanic like that) | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On October 23 2011 15:00 lawls544 wrote: TvP: WoL: Marines eat zealots/immortals/air, Marauders eat stalkers/colossus HotS: Marines eat zealots/immortals/air, Warhound eats stalker/sentry/colossus/air even harder than marauders? I have a feeling the answer is always going to be "well Protoss can replicate whatever unit they want..." On October 23 2011 15:03 Sinensis wrote: Least favorite: Thor (no hero units please), Replicant (For it's cost there is no reason to replicate anything other than an SCV for mules, and you shouldn't be able to add another race's macro mechanic like that) Here is what you do. Bring a Warp Prism or two into the Terran base filled with Replicants, drop em and make them into Mules. Then Recall the whole force, start mining and LOL. Or you just do what you said, replicate an SCV, recall it, then make CC's instead of the Nexus and just drop Mules. | ||
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Ksi
357 Posts
On October 23 2011 14:38 ohampatu wrote: To early to say what it 'needs'. When people go broods or make corrupters to kill vr or colo, they make like 10ish or even more. Think about flying around with those sniping pylons. Its a good thing that makes you use your unit, not every unit in the game needs an 'awesome' ability. Sometimes an AA unit can just be an AA unit you know. Back in beta terrans and zerg used some pretty cool things. Like when they scouted colo they would use their vikings/corrupters to snoop/snipe colo and shit by flying into the main real quick. Terrans these days are to use to scan and 'make this unit comp cause its my BO'. And zerg really need to take a book out of how terrans use vikings. I know; I am probably inferring a little too much, but what else can we do but theorycraft? It's interesting and amusing. As for the corruptor ability, I don't think the consolation of being able to leech some minerals from a Protoss base is going to mean much when their remaining ball of stalkers is rampaging through your base because you spent your gas and supply on corruptors and didn't have enough leftover for your ground army. I hate corruptors and consider them, like Hydralisks, a unit that just utterly fails at what they're supposed to do. Unlike Vikings, Corruptors have an absolutely miserable DPS to gas cost ratio. The only way for them to kill 2 or 3 Colossus before they completely annihilate your ground army is to ridiculously overinvest gas and supply cap into corruptors, then hope you can morph them to broodlords or delay your opponent long enough for the next production cycle to kick in. The opportunity to not have to create corruptors and risk overmaking them is why I'm hoping the Viper doesn't get nerfed too hard as the development progresses. | ||
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Brotocol
243 Posts
On October 23 2011 15:00 lawls544 wrote: TvP: WoL: Marines eat zealots/immortals/air, Marauders eat stalkers/colossus HotS: Marines eat zealots/immortals/air, Warhound eats stalker/sentry/colossus/air even harder than marauders? Don't forget Battle Hellions wrecking Chargelots. Blizzard was more interested in giving Terran even more ways of kicking Protoss's ass than fixing the core of Protoss gameplay. smh According to Browder/Kim, Blizzard thinks that Chargelots in PvT requiring kiting was too much to ask of Terran players. "Terran players had to kite like crazy." Poor dears. | ||
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reneg
United States859 Posts
Since almost all zerg units have such a short range, i feel like that's just going to absolutely SHRED all little backstabs. To a point where they hardly have a use. T can still drop a medivac or two of marines and snipe some structures, but apparently zerg running a pack of lings around to snipe some stuff isn't the game working as intended. anyway, i'm holding a lot of judgment for when the game is actually released. I believe a few things will be changed, though | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On October 23 2011 15:20 reneg wrote: T can still drop a medivac or two of marines and snipe some structures, but apparently zerg running a pack of lings around to snipe some stuff isn't the game working as intended. anyway, i'm holding a lot of judgment for when the game is actually released. I believe a few things will be changed, though Yep. And with Hellions effective in armies in Battle mode, you can basically kiss Zerglings goodbye. I'm not sure what will replace them too since Marauders and Tanks eat Roaches while Hydras need a Hive for speed (and also get eaten by Hellions). Will be interesting... If the Warhound provides good AA, then Mutalisk harass is going to be reduced too... Zerg isn't really getting any extra protection against harass from Terran either... | ||
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FrozenFrotie
Singapore156 Posts
On October 23 2011 14:05 Hall0wed wrote: Protoss really are getting the extremely short end of the stick here. It is crazy how lame the Replicant is. It is like Blizzard is saying, "Just don't play Protoss". QFT. After seeing all the possible changes right now, i can't help but feel that the protoss changes are underwhelming compared to the terran and zerg changes. I'll discuss these changes from the protoss perspective. I personally feel that the oracle is too gimmicky to be an alterative stargate tech unit to scout and "counter" cloaked banshees. What you basically have to do to counter cloaked banshees is very counter-intuitive: 1. you have to position your oracle near the enemy's stargate 2. wait for the cloaked banshee to fly into your base and have your army positioned under the banshee. 3. go back to your oracle to disable the starport 4. pray that the terran is not smart enough to use marines to defend the starport Protoss will still have a problem with detection in HotS with stargate tech if the oracle's unit dynamics is roughly the same as i envision. As far as the replicant goes, i get the feeling from blizzard that blizzard desperately doesn't want to add another unit to the protoss death ball, but still want protoss to have a way to fight "OP" units/ tactics (terran 1/1/1 all-ins and ghost EMP). In the end, they created a half-ass unit to fulfill a half-ass role. I am sad that blizzard is removing the carrier and not trying to rework it. Such a classic unit of starcraft shouldn't go the way of the dinosaurs. The tempest as a substitute for the carrier is ok, but its capital ship status means that it may only be useful in late-game mass muta situations and not in any other situation. While other races' units are getting reworked/ buffed, protoss units are largely untouched. The stalker is still the the worst scaling late game unit of the game. The void ray's mechanics is very problematic in a sense that it will either be underwhelming, or make a situation incredible lope-sided. The nexus buff is great in a sense that it fixes a big mobility issue that protoss has when terrans and zerg can abuse mobility and stretch protoss thin. And in early game FFE situations in PvZ. We'll see if this situation changes in the future. | ||
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awu25
United States2003 Posts
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epicanthic
Hong Kong295 Posts
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theBALLS
Singapore2935 Posts
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Doc Daneeka
United States577 Posts
ultra charge: im not sure i like this. it looks kind of goofy and it recycles the zealot charge concept. watching ultras in pro games the last 6 months or so, they can be pretty scary when microed into the battle properly, and at the right times. i do feel like they needed tweaking, but this is a pretty artificial solution. still, i can live with it if it has a positive impact on the game balance-wise. baneling burrow move: i think i like this. it comes late enough in the game that it could possibly be made to be balanced, and the more burrow mechanics the zergier and the zergier the better. at the same time though, i feel like it'll kill a new and very exciting micro mechanic: laying baneling landmines in the middle of a fight. if that's the effect it would have, then i'd rather not have burrow-walking banelings. the game needs to keep developing high skill ceiling techniques like burrowing banes midfight. but maybe it won't kill that skill. maybe it'll further incentivize it. corruption removal: i can't say i'll miss it too much. it wasn't a lot of fun to use. but it definitely had utility. it was at mlg that stephano raped some toss with mass corruption, right? i feel like most pros just forget this thing exists when it does make a difference. i'm ok with it being removed though, as long as whatever replaces it is cooler. siphon ability: speaking of which, this is not cooler. maybe if it was useable against ground units it would be decent. i dunno, i guess we'll see in beta if it makes any difference. i'm not particularly impressed by the concept though.1 mineral a second for 50 seconds (assuming the opponent ignores the corrupter for a full 50 seconds) is one pair of zerglings. the whole idea just reeks of jumping the shark. hellion morph upgrade: don't care. i'll let experts in terran game balance worry about this. i guess it makes sense that it would have to be an upgrade though, considering it's the gasless base unit for the factory. reaper D8 charge removal: i'm ok with this. it's pretty ridiculous what reapers in a bunker can do to an early expanding, late-pooling zerg, and most of the reaper's utility currently comes from its ability to kill hella workers. its ability to mow down buildings never seems to be the main reason why it gets built, and removing this ability certainly won't affect the likelihood of reapers being made past the 10 minute mark (which is currently very very low even without this ability being cut.) reaper regeneration: on one hand, i've always thought the limited use of reapers largely came from how expensive they are compared to how fragile they are. so i'm glad blizzard has caught on to this. on the other hand, it's kind of an artificial solution. if reapers can regenerate out of battle, why isn't that technology being used with the marines and marauders too? (no one point this out to dustin browder, please, for the love of god.) this is sort of an 'aesthetics' complaint because it doesn't make sense. but if it makes the reaper a more useful and exciting unit in the long run, then i'll suspend my disbelief for the sake of "ESPORTS!!!" ghost cloak change: don't care, can't imagine this will change anything significantly other than to babysit terrans a little more. ability to cloak during nuke: ditto. battlecruiser charge upgrade: is this actually an upgrade? not sure it needs to be. they already have to upgrade yamato cannon and potentially the energy upgrade, during a stage of the game where the game isn't likely to last a whole lot longer anyway. honestly i think it should start with this ability. it's a cool concept. balance gurus can comment on if this needs to be an upgrade or not, i have no clue, but i can't see pros going out of their way to research this. it's hard to plan for emergency situations where your battlecruisers are just barely out of range to save the day. nexus recall: i love this. i love that recall is being moved to a more accessible unit/structure. it's a very protoss-esque ability that i think will come to redefine a lot of protoss strategies. for all the laziness blizzard has shown towards protoss, this is huge and i hope it makes it through to release. it may need to be re-balanced (require research or a certain tech building, etc, not gonna guess until we see it in action) but it's an excellent idea. i play zerg and i hate ZvP enough as it is and i still think this should stay in the game. maybe it should require warp gate tech? that seems like a reasonable limitation, and one that is relatively convincing from a "lore" standpoint. nexus arcshield: i like the concept but it seems like it could be broken. it'd be nice if they manage to balance it in beta and it stays in the game, but i wouldn't be too gutted if it got cut out. they may just need to nerf the damage it does. a little bit goes a long way in the early game. OH, and it needs to not be castable on all buildings. maybe just pylons and nexuses? or have a limited range. cos that report about the arcshield/gas steal cheese was ridiculous. shit like that cannot be allowed to happen. overseer removed: i do not agree with this. there was no reason for this at all. so what if it's a boring unit? so is the observer. the overseer was the logical form of detection for zerg, and it came with a pair of situationally useful spells that i will miss a little bit (the 5% of the times that i am able to sneak a changeling through are priceless). plus, it's a cool model. also, just look at terran: nothing got cut. there's redundancy all over, and they intend to balance that? ok, but not at the expense of zerg and protoss please. i don't like feeling like i play a second class race. either make all the races minimalistic, or load all the races up with toys and redundant units. don't apply one design philosophy to terran and a different one to the other two. carrier removed: i feel pretty much the same about this as i do the overseer. there's no point in removing it. all they're doing is removing potential. it took years for brood war to settle into the metagame it has now. now i'm definitely no brood war expert but i'm pretty sure there were entire units that went ignored for a very long time before becoming very important units, right? the SC2 carrier could have been one of those units. some day in a couple years, what if, say, the TvP metagame drive protoss towards a really stargate-heavy build? well herpderp it sure would be nice to have some carriers right about now! mothership removed: i think you get the idea by now: i don't like any of the unit cuts and i don't think they should be happening. if a unit is breaking the game then maybe, but none of these cut units are doing that. they're just being neglected because they aren't viable (yet.) there's absolutely no reason to cut the mothership. it barely makes an appearance in pro games because it's too hard to plan for making one. and the few times it does show up in a game, it's a huge treat. a flashy treat too, great for spectators. vortex is a flawed spell that can make zero difference or all the difference, and it's impossible to plan for. so who cares? leave it alone. let the players dream up ways to use it. since recall has been moved elsewhere, maybe it could just have planet cracker back? a weaker version of planet cracker maybe? i just don't see the point in removing this thing. it's just a button on the bottom right of the screen most people never push. seems to be jumping the gun a little, a year and some change after the game came out. thor removed: the thor hasn't been removed. but i guess it's been more significantly altered than any other unit in the game so i'll comment on that later. viper: love this. the blinding cloud (just call it dark swarm please, blizz, you're not fooling anyone) is the main thing i'm excited about. i have mixed feelings about occular parasite: i've commented in another thread about how i think it should be a parasite-style spell. if the overseer were still in the game, i would say it should be exactly the parasite spell the BW queen had. if the overseer is gone, then the viper should start with detection and have the one-time ability to transfer that detection to another unit. the mechanic as it is currently is a bit wtf: why grant detection to something else when you don't even have it yourself? this is a suspension of disbelief issue and i'm kind of annoyed with it. the "pull" spell is ok i guess. it probably needs to be very high cost if it stays the way it is. i'd like something a bit more interesting in place of it though. aesthetically the viper is pretty cool, no complaints. i'm happy about the unit overall, but i do think it could do with some tweaks. again, not from a balance standpoint, cos who knows right now, but just from a design standpoint. swarm host: this is my favorite thing about the whole expansion so far. this little guy is great. he looks great and the concept is great. mobile unit generators. great concept for zerg. we'll see how it factors into the balance of the game. but compared to some of the potential issues in the other changes, i feel like this will be pretty easy for blizz to balance. increase the spawn rate, decrease locust damage, etc etc, they have a lot of options in adjusting numbers. warhound: okay, i'm not gonna pull punches here: visually, this thing looks retarded. but nevermind that. why didn't they just put the goliath back into multiplayer? cos essentially that's what this is, except it also does bonus damage to armored. which marauders already do. and siege tanks. i personally don't think the thor needed to be replaced anyway. one of my least favorite announced changes. shredder: i guess this sounds like an interesting concept. we'll see in beta if it needs to be nerfed. whether it was necessary or not is another discussion entirely - i'm of the opinion that terran doesn't need anymore toys until toss and zerg catch up a bit more. battle hellion: i'm okay with this. it looks reasonably cool. but again, is it at all necessary? and that's an honest question: how does this affect the game? conceptually i'm fine with it. if i have to suspend disbelief enough to accept walking mechs, vikings transforming, tanks doubling as artillery cannons etc etc then this isn't really a problem. but is there any point to adding this? does it accomplish anything that couldn't be accomplished by just microing normal hellions better? the new thor: see my post on the warhound. oracle: good unit concept, decent model. i'm all for toss getting a utility caster with a less defined roll than the sentry. problem is, two of its abilities are total crap. i don't even care if its mineral freezing spell turns out to be good for the balance of the game - it's an extremely boring and transparent attempt at forcing a role on a unit for 'competitive play'. same with preordain. both these abilities need to be cut ASAP. phase shift is good. it's flexible and potentially powerful. here's a brainstorm: replace the other two abilities with maelstrom and stasis field, maybe? just throwing that out there. i know blizz doesn't want to copy and paste everything from brood war, and that's fair. but these two abilities need to go, or this unit is gonna suck, if not from a balance standpoint then from a purely design and enjoyability standpoint. replicant: great protoss campaign unit. terrible protoss multiplayer unit. it'll be impossible to balance so i'm pretty confident it'll get cut anyway, but on the off chance that it doesn't get cut, it's just a really uninspired lazy fix to problems toss is having. tempest: visually, this thing looks amazing. i love the art. gameplay-wise, meh, who knows until beta. seems weird for a 'capitol ship' to overlap so badly with the standard flying units that race already has. being so expensive and high tech, intuitively it seems like it would be more cost effective to just mass phoenix instead. i dunno. we'll see what happens in beta. i think they need to make this unit more interesting though. and to reiterate, i don't think the carrier should have been cut to begin with, so in my perfect little world the tempest would be given some other more unique purpose than just being a sturdy source of AtA splash damage. | ||
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jjhchsc2
Korea (South)2393 Posts
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