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On October 24 2011 08:44 Fishgle wrote:
Why do people dislike Viper's Hook? It's great for killing colossus or help attack into siege lines.
1. It looks like Looney Tunes
2. It removes actual compensatory micro and army splitting an army has to do, which is one of the main reasons BW or any RTS is exciting.
3. It looks stupid
4. It looks stupid
5. It's another ability where a spell replaces actual micro.
It should be ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to break a good siege line. In a nutshell, that's what made BW popular for 10 years. Siege lines being ridiculously OP, and people finding ways to overcome that. For once, please forget your amateur ladder ambitions and think about what's best for watching the game.
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Will the Replicator be able to replicate Drones or SVC's???
Endless possibilities............
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I would suggest that vipers can have units stick to them, and then the viper takes itself and the units to the enemy unit. At least that's feasible. It still removes actual good fundamental micro though.
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On October 24 2011 08:44 Fishgle wrote:
Why do people dislike Viper's Hook? It's great for killing colossus or help attack into siege lines.
because its too good at doing exactly that... a couple of vipers and suddenly your enemy loses his core units and you just roll him over.
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On October 24 2011 09:15 Panzamelano wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 08:44 Fishgle wrote:
Why do people dislike Viper's Hook? It's great for killing colossus or help attack into siege lines. because its too good at doing exactly that... a couple of vipers and suddenly your enemy loses his core units and you just roll him over.
except if you use just cloud the tankline you can still break it just as easy. -.-
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On October 24 2011 09:07 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 08:44 Fishgle wrote:
Why do people dislike Viper's Hook? It's great for killing colossus or help attack into siege lines. 1. It looks like Looney Tunes 2. It removes actual compensatory micro and army splitting an army has to do, which is one of the main reasons BW or any RTS is exciting. 3. It looks stupid 4. It looks stupid 5. It's another ability where a spell replaces actual micro. It should be ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to break a good siege line. In a nutshell, that's what made BW popular for 10 years. Siege lines being ridiculously OP, and people finding ways to overcome that. For once, please forget your amateur ladder ambitions and think about what's best for watching the game.
So, you're angry that zerg gets to micro with something besides target firing and fungal? It also does not look stupid, and you make yourself sound stupid by saying two points but stretching it out into 5 "points."
Then again, that's coming from someone who thinks that something from their own race "deserves" to be OP. I honestly doubt that people were watching BW for so long because of tank lines.
Anyway, hydra speed. Nuff said, we've been asking for it forever, finally got it.
Ultra Charge: Yeah, now we actually get to use our ultras instead of them dancing around the DB
Bling burrow move: meh, not really needed, but it could help for positioning bling mines as the marines come around.
Mothership and carrier gone: Well, they were never really used (except by Kiwi), and carriers were kinda imba if you could somehow get a large number of them.
Replicator: Undecided. It might work, but we'll see.
Tempest: /drool. If they aren't like a void/super-phoenix combo, they should be nice. Just don't fuck the build time up.
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I'm really excited to see the tempest, but the other protoss units just don't seem to exciting...
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On October 24 2011 09:07 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 08:44 Fishgle wrote:
Why do people dislike Viper's Hook? It's great for killing colossus or help attack into siege lines. 1. It looks like Looney Tunes 2. It removes actual compensatory micro and army splitting an army has to do, which is one of the main reasons BW or any RTS is exciting. 3. It looks stupid 4. It looks stupid 5. It's another ability where a spell replaces actual micro. It should be ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to break a good siege line. In a nutshell, that's what made BW popular for 10 years. Siege lines being ridiculously OP, and people finding ways to overcome that. For once, please forget your amateur ladder ambitions and think about what's best for watching the game.
guys guys guys... viper hook is just an alternate spawn broodling.
YES, i know you can't SB a reaver, but viper hooking a colossus doesn't create two broodlings either, not to mention a viper by itself won't do much. Really, it is spawn broodling with a tweak.
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On October 24 2011 09:07 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 08:44 Fishgle wrote:
Why do people dislike Viper's Hook? It's great for killing colossus or help attack into siege lines. 1. It looks like Looney Tunes 2. It removes actual compensatory micro and army splitting an army has to do, which is one of the main reasons BW or any RTS is exciting. 3. It looks stupid 4. It looks stupid 5. It's another ability where a spell replaces actual micro. It should be ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to break a good siege line. In a nutshell, that's what made BW popular for 10 years. Siege lines being ridiculously OP, and people finding ways to overcome that. For once, please forget your amateur ladder ambitions and think about what's best for watching the game.
I think this ability looks insanely fun. It means you actually have to keep an eye on those precious siege lines. I can't wait to play around with it.
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On October 24 2011 09:20 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 09:15 Panzamelano wrote:On October 24 2011 08:44 Fishgle wrote:
Why do people dislike Viper's Hook? It's great for killing colossus or help attack into siege lines. because its too good at doing exactly that... a couple of vipers and suddenly your enemy loses his core units and you just roll him over. except if you use just cloud the tankline you can still break it just as easy. -.-
but the thing its that it isnt only good for that... every single race normally uses some core units (colossi, thors,tanks) and being able to just take it and kill it witouth your enemy being able to do anything about it its the point that is broken... right now the viper seems like it will force protoss to all-in everygame cause they cant depend on core units like templars or colossi because they will get pulled away and killed before you can do anything about it.
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I LOVE the hellion and warhound.
Warhound is terran's only beefy unit(240hp) which has good anti-mech and anti-air, hellion transforms make them not complete garbage after the initial cheesing phase of the game.
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Hydra Speed
The current niche which the hydra inhabits is that it is useful in low numbers when defending certain cheeses and when putting on pressure before heavy AoE attacks come out. They are not mobile which means they need to either be Nydused or dropped in order to get in and out in any realistic time. I don't like the hydra speed upgrade because the goal of any play which provokes hydras is to force the zerg to produce static defenses and hydras so the zerg sacrifices map control and can't counter pressure. Hydra speed is accomplished by nydus and drops, but those are countered by scouting whereas hydra speed will be countered by forcefields and heavy AoE (colossi or fungal). This might make hydras viable in ZvT, but I doubt it. I would rather a change which promotes more utility for the hydra, this change promotes more all-in with the hydra.
Ultra Charge
Burrow blink. Ultras need a change, but I don't think this is it. It looks like a no-micro skill which also obviates strong positioning and planning from the defender. It's so strong that I think T will need marauders and P will need immortals before the ultra is out. I think any buff to the Ultra needs to be more subtle, like allowing units to run underneath it. This allows the defender to plan, and micro against the ultra without turning the ultra into an a-move, micro destroying machine.
Baneling Burrow Move
I do like this change. It's hive-tech which means you'll know to prepare for it long in advance and you'll have detection unless the game is really weird. Banelings are not the most cost-effective AoE attack, but a pair of them can instantly destroy workers or marines instantly and this ability will make these situations easier to create. Against a mineral line, you'll probably still have more success with drops because overlords move faster than blings and from unpredictable angles. Terran will likely need to build ravens in the mid-game, or else they will have to slow their pushes down and build a string of missile turrets anywhere they plan to set up. Actually not game-shattering like a lot of people seem to think.
Corruption Removal
Corruption is a silly ability. I think it's fine as it is, but I don't care if it's gone either. As zerg, I tend to focus on positioning, fungals and injects. The cooldown on corruption makes it difficult to use with any regularity and the benefit isn't terribly useful. I don't understand why the corruptor needs any spell at all to be honest.
Siphon Ability
I want to reserve judgement on this one, but I think it's pretty bizarre. One thing that I haven't seen anybody mention is that any zerg which finds a random pylon in the field will be able to leech 400 minerals off of it. Does anybody know if you get minerals off shields? Consider Antiga Shipyard, where Protoss typically builds a pylon at your third so they can reinforce their push. If you make corruptors to hold off the push, you could attach to the pylon afterwards and start siphoning minerals. If they warp in to defend the pylon, you just a-move your army in and pull out before you destroy the pylon. Park an overlord over it and leave occasionally so the shields can regen. 60 minerals per minute is a higher rate than what a drone will harvest. Basically other armies will want to destroy any buildings they can't defend if that's true. I believe creep tumors are buildings as well, which might make this spell an interesting way of removing them. You could also siphon from the enemy's base during an attack, which which provide a real use for the corruptor outside or killing colossi.
Hellion Morph Upgrade
I believe the popular thought is that the hellion is already a disgusting unit which only costs minerals, why make it even better? If this actually gets implemented, I hope that it is an upgrade and not something the hellion can do by default (like how the viking currently works). I have been using hellions a lot in all matchups and I think it's a deal breaker if the unit costs gas. What I think Blizzard is trying to do here is make mech more viable, which is commendable but the hellion is already one of the most powerful and versatile units in the game - an upgrade to this unit is not necessary.
Reaper D8 Charge Removal
The reaper isn't used often, so I don't think this will really have any effect on the game. The D8 charges are cool, but the reaper itself isn't terribly survivable in the early game. I think it makes sense for the D8 charge to be removed to make way for a separate buff with the intent of increasing utility.
Reaper Regeneration
I'm not sure if this is the change the reaper needed, but it's interesting nonetheless. I think the reaper was overnerfed, and I wouldn't mind a rethink on how the unit functions. If you've ever tried MMA's play on Metalopolis, then you know that you move your reapers onto watchtowers after a couple queens are out because they are really expensive and really vulnerable. Medivacs come quite late which sorda retires the unit, but I presume this regeneration will be about a quick as zerg regeneration. At any rate, I'm excited to try this change.
Cloak cost change
It seems like a weird ability. The Blizzard guys seemed to sell the idea as if it were a buff to one of the strongest units in the game. That was about the time I realized that Blizzard is not on the same page as the rest of the world when it came to game design. Anyhow, it's cool that the ghost will need to be "microed" or checked in on or whatever to make sure he's still invisible and killing everything. I would just rather not see this change implemented because it's not very intuitive to me and the other units with a toggle cloak can leave it on permanently so I'd rather see the ability streamlined.
Ability to cloak during nuke
I really don't like this. I like that players have to bank energy to maintain cloak while nuking, and have to decide whether or not to spend that energy. This seems to be a sort of dumbing down of the game which really takes away from good planning and unit management. At the best, you have to reactivate cloak partway through a nuke (due to other change), at worst you will be able to decide whether or not to cloak during a nuke calldown so that you can destroy energy and save energy to snipe what's left.
Battlecruiser charge upgrade
I like this change only if it's a nerf. I mean that I expect that they will revert the recent speed buff to BCs and put this cooldown-based ability in its place. I think it would be even better if it took energy over time (like how ghost and banshee cloaking currently works) so you could budget speed boosts and willingly deplete your energy so you can't get feedbacked.
Nexus Recall
I'm not sure if this ability might be too powerful, but I think it is an excellent ability overall. The obvious implications are that you will be able to push out with your army, and use recall to save your army if it's a bad engagement; you will also be able to harass or snipe an expansion and then recall your army before it gets wiped out. This functions very similar to how town portal worked in WC3 and I expect it won't take long before the entire community can use this ability like an old pro. Late game Protoss will have a large amount of recall available to them at any given point, and even a nexus at a dried up base will be a valuable target so this spell is denied.
The reason why it might be overpowered is that it will turn the whole Protoss army into a strong harass. You could blink into your opponent's fifth on Shattered Temple, snipe their base and recall home just as the enemy is coming up the ramp. Static defense will literally need to be everywhere in order to stop the most mobile Protoss units from blitzing past them, doing damage and teleporting home. The only way to abuse this is to attack different Protoss locations simultaneously, and constantly so that the Protoss has to recall around and lose energy so they can't recall out of your bases. I think this will be the most powerful ability in the game and can't speak enough for it. I don't know if it's "macro nexus" good, but it's up there.
Nexus Building Defenses
Apparently these are as strong as a photon cannon, but only against light units? Does the spell automatically target light units if they're in range, or do you have to do that yourself? I've already heard of people building assimilators in their opponent's mineral line at blizzcon, then casting the spell on it and taking out the mineral line. I bet that will get patched fairly quickly. I do think that much of the value of this spell is lost if it only works on light units. The problem units in the early game are marauders, roaches and stalkers. This spell might save money on cannons in a forge fast expand, but I doubt it will actually be used very often because cannons are not good against light units (or anything that is massed).
Overseer removed
To any zerg player who liked this change, don't forget that Overseers didn't cost any supply. I think the overseer was a bit of a hassle because it's got to do something useful if it costs gas, but it can't do anything powerful if it doesn't cost supply. I was hoping we'd see overseers cost 100 minerals and don't have spells next patch (or just changelings), and observers cost 25/50. The price of mobile detection is incredibly high in this game and zerg/protoss needs to tech up to get it. I'm not sure why this is the case and I don't think that cloaked units would be used any less if detectors were even cheaper. I'm personally okay with the overseer, I just think that their is a spell/cost conflict.
Carrier removed
Just when I was using it of course. This unit is an icon of starcraft for me, and it's a shame that it's gotta go. To be fair with myself, I think the unit is not used often and I after playing HotS for a week I'm sure I would have forgotten all about it. We are seeing carriers being implemented in higher level play so maybe they won't be removed after all, I can't say. It's too bad they don't work the same way they do in BW or else I'm sure we'd see them all the time.
Mothership removed
I view this as "mothership removed and only useful power put on nexus." Honestly, if nexus can cast mass recall in exchange for mothership then I don't miss it. The invisibility thing is kinda cool for protecting HTs, but I don't think it's the end-all-and-be-all of the game. The vortex is kinda useless once the archon toilet got nerfed (which isn't a bad thing). If you're not aware, the archon toilet still works on air units, which is great because you can use vortex to suck in vikings/corruptors and dump archons in so that your colossi or carriers are untouchable for a game-winning period of the game. I use the Mothership more and more recently and I like it, but I think it's a little gimmicky and it's weird that you can only make one. I'd rather see arbiters brought back.
Thor removed
The muta/thor dynamic is one of the most interesting dynamics in the game imo. If you a-move your mutas, then you do more damage overall but could potentially lose all your mutas in a single volley if your opponent has thors. If you magic box your mutas around, then you might lose some dps but you are really safe against thors. This is reminiscent of the micro battles in BW and I think that we need more of these types of dynamics in SC2. I don't think that this dynamic will be as strong against the Warhound because there will be more of them which means the mutas will need to just avoid them and hope the sling/bling can crush through them.
Viper Ocular Parasite
I think the idea of turning a muta into a detector when going muta/ling in TvZ sounds like a novel idea. Also turning queens into detectors because they typically defend banshee/DT rushes anyhow is probably going to become standard. Really, if you have several different control groups operating independently, then you could have a detector in each group. Primarily, I think zerg will have more available detection than they know what to do with - especially if the detection spell endures after the caster is killed. This will of course be opposed by the fact that zerg units die in droves in large engagements, but if you choose your detectors intelligently then the amount of detectors you have should increase over the duration of the game.
Viper 'Dark Swarm'
As everyone's been saying, this is more similar to the corsair's disruption web ability. If this makes it to the release, I don't think the Ultras burrow blink ability will be necessary. This will have a similar utility that dark swarm had, and ultra/ling will benefit as a result. Laying fungal and dark swarm down while a-moving ultra/ling in will be pretty darn good. This is the type of buff that zerg needs and I can't like it enough.
Viper 'Grab'
This ability disgusts me. It ruins positioning and smart play and because the viper will be so available, I see zerg snatching all the expensive units from the opponents army, then easily winning the game. The intent is to stop colossus harass? Seriously? Anything stops colossus harass which is why nobody does it. Just having come corruptors or neural parasite accomplishes the same goal, I don't think another counter is at all necessary. It's not a good thing that zerg will be able to destroy tanks with a couple clicks because tanks are supposed to kill banelings so the entire terran army doesn't die instantly. I think anybody could write a novel about why this ability is the worst idea in the list.
Swarm Host
I don't like this unit for many reasons. I've seen a lot of people comparing it to the Lurker, and someone actually said that the Swarm Host is artillery and the Lurker wasn't. The Lurker is the definition of artillery, the Swarm Host is a caster like a Necromancer with Meat Wagon from WC3. I don't like the Swarm Host only because it looks like it does the same thing that the Brood Lord does, but from the ground. I don't know why Blizzard resists bringing the Lurker back in, but it would be infinitely more useful than this thing. The locusts look weak enough that I would almost rather not scanning them and just stim and run past. I'll catch them when they try to burrow behind me. They're supposed to be used to set up contains, while constantly attacking the enemy's wall. It might be powerful in lower leagues, but I bet it will be skipped in higher leagues.
Warhound
This unit looks like a goliath which is worse against ground units, but does splash vs air. The thor already does splash versus air and I think it functions fine in its current state. I just don't understand the Warhound. I honestly wouldn't mind if the goliath was implemented as it exists in the campaign, with bonus vs armored air units. The big thing is that mech doesn't have a meat shield in front of the tanks and either this unit, the goliath or the battle hellion will all do that. If it does some damage vs ground and can attack air, it's probably a good addition. I don't think it should do splash damage if it's massable - like the rest of mech. I also think the model looks stupid.
Shredder
This unit looks kinda nifty. It looks like it has very long range and it attacks air, so I'm not sure how you're supposed to clean these things up. I think that Terran actually has the best space control, unlike what Blizzard was saying but this unit complements it well and I disagree with the negativity. One thing I really like about this unit is that it will have different utility on different maps and in different positions. I think it will be quite a useful unit overall, and as long as it can be destroyed without losing units to it then I think it's fine. If it had range 5, I think that would be perfect.
Battlemode unit
Really bad idea. So the hellion gets dropped in the enemy's base, drives around and destroys the mineral line then backs into a corner and goes battlemode to clean up all the zealots. I hope the hp buff is completely removed and it just gains 1 armor in battlemode. Battlemode is probably a bad idea overall, but I doubt it's going to be removed since the animation exists. Expect the hellion to get nerfed until it's almost useless because this battlemode looks disgusting. It also angers me when Dustin Browder said the hellion was only useful in the early-midgame when the current TvT metagame involves hellions all game. With the Warhound, I'm sure hellions will already be useful in all matchups because there is another tanking unit. I think Blizzard is messing around with the mech too much and that they don't understand that hellions are incredible good and why mech isn't viable in all matchups. I expect an immediate metagame shift in HotS to mech in all matchups if the battlehellion goes through as is.
New Thor ability
Too stupid for words.
New Thor unit
Blizzard: "We thought the Mothership was stupid because it was a unique unit, so we removed it and made the Thor a unique unit instead." You could almost hear David Kim's hesitation at the presentation as he realized what he was saying. I think that if the Thor is changed from how it currently operates, it will probably be removed from the game. I don't understand what it's good for, the mothership is only useful as a support unit and I don't think that people want a super powerful a-move unit. Thor rushes with SCV repair will take on a new meaning entirely because the AoE attack could destroy an entire army. Just dumb.
Oracle mineral blocking
I want to make a distinction with respect to Protoss harass first: the best harass is in the Stargate tech line. Blink and warp prism harass just can't do the damage and don't have the same kind of map control that void ray or phoenix harass does. If Protoss are crying for more harass options, it's gotta be tier 2 because there are plenty of late game harass options and it can't be too expensive if it's not robo/twilight because stargate tech does not complement a late game composition as well and is expensive to tech to.
I do really like this ability though. there's another thread on it which claims that you can put 600hp of shields down - that's a bunker and half that the opponent has to clean up so they can get back to mining. It looks like it has fair range and it almost impossible to stop without flying units of your own. The unit is supposedly as fast as a phoenix, so it will be able to dart in, stop mining for up to 45s and dart out. If anything, I think this spell might be too powerful and too tricky to balance. If workers can clean it up without help from the army then it's useless. If it requires an army to clean it up then it will be very hard to Terran to deal with it because they don't have static defense which targets ground units.
Oracle building spying
Let me do some spying for you right now. You see a spire, they went mutas. You see a roach warren, they went roaches. You see a ghost academy, they're getting ghosts. Saved you some energy. Also, I can't imagine any situation where you'd want to see what's being upgraded except to see the first upgrade on a tech lab to help see if they're putting on pressure or expanding. You can see upgrades on units and most buildings will only build one type of unit. This ability won't be used very often.
Oracle building removing
This ability is kinda cute. It's like the contaminate ability of the overseer (so probably not useful), but can also be used on your own buildings to make them invulnerable. If you build an oracle off an expand, you should be able to come out of any harassment a little better if you save your artosis pylon, or robo bay from being sniped. Does not actually do damage, but could be interesting. I think my oracle will be using energy to stop enemy mining though.
Replicant
Apparently you can copy workers and build an entire terran/zerg army. My goal will be to get shredders and macro orbital commands. Other than that I don't think this unit will be terribly useful and probably won't make it to release. The examples given were "infestor and ghost." Infestor could be cool, but you need a fair amount of them to do anything useful and replicants are pretty expensive; ghosts are obviously not terribly useful against terran. Can you clone your own units? These guys could be useful in PvP where you don't get colossus tech, then mass replicants and clone your opponent's colossus so you have more colossi for cheaper and free range upgrade, then roll them over. I think the replicant will be most useful on expensive units like thors and ultralisks, which don't require any special micro.
Tempest
David Kim missed the memo. Protoss has plenty of options for dealing with massed light air units in tier 3, that's why everyone immediately techs to HTs and Archons as a response. The problem is that in tier 2, you need to start blink research and debate putting down stargates and trying to defend them because mutas can really pick protoss apart in tier 2. It's pretty balanced right now though and I can assure you that the Tempest won't help one iota if it requires a fleet beacon. The tempest will be useful if it kills vikings and corruptors so you can keep your colossus alive, but I'm not holding my breath. The unit looks really cool, but unless it's pretty fierce against ground units I've already got it in the scrap bin.
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I love the Terran Zerg changes.
but Protoss changes.. felt heartless...
Carriers/Mothership gone...
with SOME new units, I was thinking maybe it be worth it to transition into these now.
but without getting a chance.. they are removed..
Anyone with me if we petition to keep either Carrier or Mothership? (at least one?) Or make the Mothership with Interceptors?
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Nexus Recall
I'm not sure if this ability might be too powerful, but I think it is an excellent ability overall. The obvious implications are that you will be able to push out with your army, and use recall to save your army if it's a bad engagement; you will also be able to harass or snipe an expansion and then recall your army before it gets wiped out. This functions very similar to how town portal worked in WC3 and I expect it won't take long before the entire community can use this ability like an old pro. Late game Protoss will have a large amount of recall available to them at any given point, and even a nexus at a dried up base will be a valuable target so this spell is denied.
The reason why it might be overpowered is that it will turn the whole Protoss army into a strong harass. You could blink into your opponent's fifth on Shattered Temple, snipe their base and recall home just as the enemy is coming up the ramp. Static defense will literally need to be everywhere in order to stop the most mobile Protoss units from blitzing past them, doing damage and teleporting home. The only way to abuse this is to attack different Protoss locations simultaneously, and constantly so that the Protoss has to recall around and lose energy so they can't recall out of your bases. I think this will be the most powerful ability in the game and can't speak enough for it. I don't know if it's "macro nexus" good, but it's up there.
This ability will have a cooldown and you won't be able to chain multiple recalls with multiple Nexuses (Nexi?).
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They added more abilities and spells than we could have ever expected. The game just got a lot more fun as far as I'm concerned. Multiple ways to solve each problem, and endless more problems.
Drop the Roach and Marauder, and give the Swarm Host's minions a bit more speed and life (seconds not HP)
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I don't really understand how the marauder and the war hound can co-exist...
"Great against mechanical; especially tanks, stalkers!"
Does the marauder not already do the same thing?
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On October 24 2011 16:48 yOiyuK wrote:
I don't really understand how the marauder and the war hound can co-exist...
"Great against mechanical; especially tanks, stalkers!"
Does the marauder not already do the same thing?
Yes, but it's a mech version of it.
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On October 24 2011 19:22 Grumbels wrote:
Yes, but it's a mech version of it.
yes.. I do wonder do they need 2 units doing the same thing..
especially if Protoss needs to rid the Mothership to get an Oracle...
....
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I would be interested in what races voted for what on these polls
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Marauder has bonus dmg vs Armored, (Roaches, for example)
Warhoud has bonus dmg vs Mechanical (Hellions, for example)
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EPT
