EPTMaybe they should make it a upgrade just like neural and storm...?
[P]New Units, Abilities, Evolutions, & Removals - Page 6
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
Maybe they should make it a upgrade just like neural and storm...? | ||
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BlitzerSC
Italy8800 Posts
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totalpigeon
United Kingdom162 Posts
Firstly, Protoss' probably OP ability to punish tech rushes via the replicator. Any tech rush against a macro Protoss is probably going to have to cross the map to beat itself. The better economy of the Protoss and the free upgrades on any tech unit should offset the high cost of the replicator and mean that if the rush is thwarted the Protoss is going to be in an excellent position. If this works like I think it will, fast expands and faster thirds for P all become a lot more likely and viable in PvT, possibly in PvZ too (you could even make a bunch of immortals, voids or storm enabled HTs really fast, so economic roach or hydra allins are probably a big nono). Of course, it's still a lazy attempt to fix P early game, but for an appropriate cost reduction (which it needs, perhaps 200-150? though the void ray would be cheaper this way then, perhaps just reducing the void cost to the same price would be okay, they're really expensive as it is). I think it would be good if it was reworked to only copy your own units, perhaps making it an expensive but very supply inefficient way to quickly get out tech units. I think a lot of people have overlooked the possibility of getting out a couple of very fast storms with this without needing to save a ton of chrono, which I could see working well against marine heavy T all-ins. The expensive Oracle may become very useful to Protoss as it should be more affordable if they can get additional bases up quickly and safely and with its high speed should be both far more difficult to defend against and far better at scouting than T and Z equivalents. It could even help defend an FFE against a roach push by zoning out whichever building the roaches focus down just before it dies, if the ability isn't too expensive. Also, the phase ability also allows tech rushes to be punished by delaying upgrades and forcing some portion of the army to stay back to stop minerals from being forcefielded (thereby denying the ability to reinforce), so while the actual cost of getting one might kill you, it can still help. While the Shredder on current maps will invalidate zergling harass, I can easily see the average choke width or number of paths outside of the nat increasing moderately to compensate. As a result Shredders become something Terran needs to invest into at least a few of in order to block any pathways, essentially becoming a necessary drain on factory time and supply for T before they can push out rather than simply an OP defensive unit that can individually block chokes and is completely impossible to break. Either way, simple investment by T into the Shredders as an immobile, completely defensive unit is never a disaster for Z. And with T possibly not relying so heavily on keeping units back or morphing distant bases into planetaries might make nydus considerably better. Alternatively, maybe the Viper can grab a morphed Shredder and pull it out of the way, opening up a path for units. A bit more involved than normal, and costing a bunch of Viper energy, but leaving the harass very viable. Just be careful not to pull the Shredder into your pack of lings, cause I don't think the pull will disable it! Swarm Host is a bit crap in my opinion. I like the concept, but the current design of two, very slowly spawned units won't control space well at all without considerable investment into a bunch of them, so the locusts spawn in big numbers. And if that's the case, you probably may as well leave an army there or just invest into something mobile enough to just run over there to defend. They're also extremely slow from the vids, so getting them across the map to attack is going to be a complete pain if you make a bunch of them, which means you'll need ovie drops, but they don't really look OP enough to justify the extra expense. Not a patch on the Shredder. Mass Recall should mean bigger chokes and larger maps won't be overly detrimental to Protoss, though the fact they'll need to keep energy up on them means it'll severely limit the amount of chronoboost that they can spend mid-late game. Keeping their nexus energy low will probably become an important task for Z and T if there is any danger of a baserace. The possibility of just warping back sentries to FF the other army out while all the DPS units go into the enemy base is scary though. T is probably going to need another massive ground unit with the Thor out (Warhound?), especially if they go mech, as they won't even have medivacs with a mech army to fly over the FFs. I dunno, siege tank vs FF might actually be fun to watch. Anyway, setting up new expos will still be tricky for P at least, as Nexus start with 0 energy, meaning P will really have to babysit. I can see every nexus having Mass Recall being a bit of a pain for spectators and a match observer to keep track of, though. Controlling several nexus to respond to multiple drops with recalls to all the correct places will be really difficult though, especially with the way everyone is currently hotkeying every nexus all to the same key. Bigger maps would make mutas much more likely due to their mobility and as a result the Tempest probably becomes pretty useful to shut it down. The unit isn't very interesting in itself though, as I can't see any strategic plays coming out of it, it's basically an anti-muta unit. Maybe pretty much unpunishable overlord hunting, though that's just more broken than fun. I think it's likely they'll add something to it before release, as currently it's really flavourless. Corruptor gets another really useless ability. It really needs something like the ability to slow enemy attack speed (albeit very briefly) so it can actually be microed against Hydra speed, will be necessary if the average map becomes larger. Definitely good. Baneling burrow movement, it's way less scary if the maps become bigger and as a result chokes become larger, the banes are less likely to connect even with movement. Also the new Terran Warhound makes the marine much less of an anti-air cornerstone for the T army, so perfect landmines shouldn't be as game ending as often. Detection for Zerg went out of the window with ocular implant being a one time use spell. DTs and Banshees should be way more effective at containing them mid-early game, and additionally keeping track of which units have detection is going to become a real pain. One thing I don't like is that Zerg may end up having to sac supply just to get more Vipers out late game if all their detectors die. We'll probably see a lot more spores from Zerg as a result. Phoenix may also get a neat role as a detection assassin Bisu style, and Banshee rushes vs Z could easily become even more OP without a fast flying detector readily available to accompany Queens. Unless maybe the Viper can implant itself with its own eye (dumb idea, right?  ). | ||
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Sightbain
Canada81 Posts
BTW why does blizzard always ignore the actual pronunciation or use of short forms or nicknames and try to substitute their own similar version.Sure a death ball is technically a ball of death, but there is a key nuance, with the blizz version it could be a bouncy ball from the dollar store, oh wait that's the protoss replicator... meh bad. | ||
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firehand101
Australia3152 Posts
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On October 23 2011 18:42 Sightbain wrote: I think everyone is ignoring the fact that dark swarm is going to be op as shit vs protoss. Everyone is thinking herp derp its gud vs marines. But drop a fungal and a swarm on a protoss army with colossi and you just nullified a tier 3 unit and the cost to upgrade range, no to mention the bulk of the toss ball is usually stalkers, so now they have 1 range and then auto lose to roaches that are now out ranging them or w/e unit you decide to use to 1a into the protoss death ball. BTW why does blizzard always ignore the actual pronunciation or use of short forms or nicknames and try to substitute their own similar version.Sure a death ball is technically a ball of death, but there is a key nuance, with the blizz version it could be a bouncy ball from the dollar store, oh wait that's the protoss replicator... meh bad. Less death ball play leads to more entertaining games. These hypothetical Protoss players will learn to micro their units with more than one hotkey after their whole army gets caught a few times. | ||
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cywinr
Canada173 Posts
- i don't understand why terran needs another unit to defend/control space, they have siege tanks, bunkers, sensor towers, and planetary fortresses already... Viper - the grab is a silly spell. makes positioning much less important and that is one of the things blizz said they want to make more important, zergs should use counter attacks/drops/mutas to force your opponent to reposition their army Corruptor - i guess it can harass buildings after you kill all the collo in ZvP, still pretty useless in ZvZ / ZvT other than to make broodlords, blizz still needs to fix this unit Tempest - toss already has HT-psi storm, Archon splash, blink stalkers, and phoenix who do bonus dmg to light. Why do they need AOE vs light air? Oracle - phase shift is a good spell, but i think it will be better as a research spell for the phoenix, that way they can continue to harass even if there are turrets/spores/cannons and toss can continue to mass phoenix in PvZ, and they won't need to worry about mass light air, therefore no need for tempest - mineral-block is kinda derp... no real permanent damage. i guess it can seriously disrupt economy, but the skill itself is too specific, players can hardly be creative with it, and it isn't micro intensive Replicator - blizz couldn't think of a new toss unit so they gave them the ability to copy. there, i said it. - it's not that i don't think it's a good/useful unit, but come on... this isn't really creative Arc Shield - not bad but research must be required do I even have to explain why? P.S. - contaminate is really important for delaying collo/tank/hatch production IMO i use it all the time i am going to miss it QQ - all the other changes i am quite happy with and i am excited for HOTS! thx blizz | ||
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ProxyKnoxy
United Kingdom2576 Posts
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fenix404
United States305 Posts
this kinda grinds my gears... so battlecruiser not only gets regular speed buff from patch (which i like), but now it gets a boost ability (no mention of def matrix or that missle barrage).... carrier: removed also removed: mothership now terran get a mothership-like change to the thor. what is so wrong with improving carriers, keeping mothership, having one-build super thor, and even some kinda omegalisk or leviathan thing form the zerg. or this: http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Swarm_guardian i like most of the changes, not the removals, the new unit mostly SEEM cool, but 200/200 for replicant is pricey; oracle still seems like weak harass*; VIPER PULL THINGY IS GOOFY (but not that bad); WTF tempest... details pls?; love mass recall nexus; warhound is battletech (mechwarrior) rip-off (just make goliath 2.0 look like goliath!); shredder is cool but weird to control; battle hellion neat-o; swarm lord is in the right direction... i feel good about how they are thinking, and i hope they keep up with teamliquid forums, b/c the input here is usually well thought out, and i spent all this time here, too! *oracle has some interesting properties. the building stasis is neat. there is an old version of the photon cannon known as the phase cannon. this could teleport around pylon fields similar to zerg's mobile static defense. what if... this phase cannon could be used (perhaps make it a forge or robo upgrade) to teleport into pylon power... of a warp prism... your oracle could provide cover and distraction for a siege of an are similar to terran just plopping down bunkers and turrets... just a thought i felt i needed to share. no attack seems like a cheat... make it DETECT and make sure it's not 150/200 (maybe 200/100, it's not an arbiter). i like the building stasis, and the tech view. makes tech fakes not only harder, but more thought out. the nexus ability for the turret on a building needs to be a simple upgrade to put a (slightly better) photon cannon on top of the nexus. | ||
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GentleDrill
United Kingdom672 Posts
If you can't get mobile detection out by the time the Zerg's at Hive you deserve to lose. I fail to see how it's worse than DTs, which, although being more expensive individually and not having splash damage, come earlier and presumably move alot faster. | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
Clearly this is the most revolutionary change to hit Starcraft II to date. | ||
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Iyerbeth
England2410 Posts
Banelings with burrowed movement with the speed as it is at the moment is just unlikely to get through beta. My initial response was something along the lines of "lol OP" but I realised that with Observers, Ravens and Vipers there's no reason anyone should not have detection available so maybe it's not so bad will have to see it in competetive play - still think it's a bit fast though. Ultralisk burrow charge, I'm wanting to know a couple of things before making a final decision. Can I burrow charge cliff walk with vision? What is the range on it, if it's a 10 yard range that I can just use to get my Ultralisks unstuck and actually fighting for instance I'm quite happy with that. In the video it seemed the Ultra basically blinked, if that's the case would it still destroy FF's in the way? Viper's abilities are cool with the exception of the Ocular Parasite being a one time use thing. Up the energy cost so it can't be spammed or put a cooldown on it, because as it is it costs significantly more than an Overseer, doesn't provide the scouting potential of an Overseer, doesn't seem to be creatable during morphing a Hive (built from Lair it seems) and will overall mean significantly less detection available. I like the concept but not the execution. The blinding attack it has it pretty awesome, and coupled with the Swarm Host could create a nice window of disarray where a Zerg player can actually attack in a slightly more tactical manner. Going to be complained at like hell though by Diamond league and below I imagine. The pull attack requiring 100 energy meas it's basically not going to be used more than once a game at max and I envisage a lot of Viper snipes from Terran and Protoss especially basically making this something that is going to work very rarely and usually just cost the Zerg player. Finally on the Zerg side of things we have Corruptor change, which I kinda like but *needs* a "Can't target friendly" limit - 300 + 50 minerals for a hatch, drain for 1500 minerals, Zerg becomes unbeatable late game with a handful of Corruptors. The only non Zerg unit I have to mention is the Replicator which as it stands now just couldn't be balanced - you can't possibly balance a race around potentially having any tech in the game. Fungal/Storm and the fact it becomes cheaper (and if the unit takes less than 74 seconds to make, faster too) for Protoss to produce Brood Lords than for Zerg are two immediately insane points and I just cn't see anyway of this working out. This is the one concept that was brought up that I feel should be removed and in return give something legitimately cool to our Protoss brothers and sisters. | ||
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Telenil
France484 Posts
Why do people care about carrier's being removed? They weren't used in the slightest... just because they worked in BW isn't a valid reason to keep them Well it is certainly a reason to try and tweak them around. If they try to give a new role to the thor the way they do, instead of simply removing the unit, it is presumably because they liked the "concept" of the massive mech unit with cannons on the back.Honestly, if the carrier (as is, capital ship requiring fleet beacon that builds interceptors to attack) was reworked to do fulfill the same role as the tempest, I still would take the carrier. Not for a particular balance reason, but because it is your iconic protoss air unit. Don't get me wrong, if the new capital ship had an entirely different mechanic (say a short range cone AoE, or something specific like that), there would be no way to keep it. You can't tweak a reaver into a colossus, the units are too different. But if you need a fleet beacon unit to have a long range anti-air AoE and a ground attack, you could also give the AoE to the interceptors and rebalance the unit accordingly. It would still feel like a carrier. | ||
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Grond
599 Posts
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TALegion
United States1187 Posts
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sunman1g
United States334 Posts
overall i feel like the zerg changes are the most "successful" ones with some tweaks. the terran ones are horrible and the protoss ones even worst | ||
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FeUerFlieGe
United States1193 Posts
On October 23 2011 18:27 Zorgaz wrote: Since the Viper comes directly after Hive tech and the fact that it is really needed for detection It's cost can't be too much. But then it's 'Grab' ability seems a little to strong. Maybe they should make it a upgrade just like neural and storm...? Viper is liar tech I'm pretty sure. | ||
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Pred8oar
Germany281 Posts
you got the nice splash + the mobility and if you are attacking you just remove the mobile part to a stronger fighting ability, hope it doesnt turn out to be as strong as i think but thats maybe coz i am zerg | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On October 23 2011 19:20 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Why do people care about carrier's being removed? They weren't used in the slightest... just because they worked in BW isn't a valid reason to keep them It's the freaking Carrier, removing it is absurd. It's like if Blizzard thought Marines were a little too strong, so they removed them from the game. There is nothing more emblematic of the Protoss race than a proud victory fleet of Carriers raining death upon their enemies. They need to make that a plausible thing, not remove Carriers from the game. | ||
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