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On October 23 2011 06:16 sixfour wrote:i am curious as to what problems the terran race currently has
Erm, well, hellions are killable, thors are too expensive and big and zergling runbys can occur. SO LETS ELIMINATE ALL 3. Seriously Blizzard, THINK before you make shit.
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Love the new defiler, bit less keen on the new toss units.
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On October 23 2011 06:20 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 06:16 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 23 2011 06:12 Geovu wrote:On October 23 2011 06:08 Vindicare605 wrote:200 gas per marine? Good luck with that. Still will be more cost effective than stalkers. If your stalkers are being that cost ineffective then it's not a problem with the unit. You could just copy an SCV and THEN build your own Marines from a Barracks xD
Yea I don't see the Replicant being able to replicate workers for very long.
The only reason it was possible in SC1 and with Neural Parasite was because it was and is extremely difficult to do. The way the replicant works, it can replicate any unit that you have vision of, which means all you have to do is scout an expansion with harvesting workers and you can create any unit you want from any of the three races.
In SC1 you had to successfully nab an SCV with a Dark Archon and escort it back to safety to build, with Neural Parasite it's even more difficult to do.
The Replicant makes it too easy to make Protoss the "I can make anything I want" race. I don't see that happening.
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I disliked all of the Toss units, heres why:
The Replicator - I'm skeptical that once they have finished balancing this unit it will no longer have any utility. The only real place I see for this unit is an expensive end game unit that is worth it because you can instantly switch your composition between Immortals and Void Rays based on whether the enemy has antiair. Also when I'm playing Toss I don't want to use the other races units.
The Oracle - This could be okay with the right balancing but it needs to get a lot better. When Toss complains that we don't have harass what we really mean is we want a unit that is like cloaked banshees, mutas or marauder drops. That is something that if not immediately correctly responded too will simply end the game. I want the other races to fear our harass not have it just be a slight annoyance like phoenixs or sentry drops.
The Tempest - It's okay just boring. Flying Toss Thor.
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The viper just seems overpowered with that pull. It will nullify collosus entirely unless the range is reduced (when watching the video) or maybe if the energy cost is ridiculous... but even then waiting a bit to pull collosus on top of roaches seems worth it in a big battle. All around it just seems like a very solid unit that will add to many strategies, and it is the one unit added that I feel is very solid (assuming it will be balanced of course).
The swarm host seems interesting I suppose. I don't know the details of how it will work, but I suppose it will play a similar role as the lurker, but it seems like it will be move overwhelming when it is already burrowed and the terran has to fight through a bunch of cannon fodder before it can do any real damage, and at the same time quite weak when it comes to making an attack with them. It is hard to judge though, because I don't know how many mini units they can spawn before they stop, and what the aggro radius is on them, both of which are obviously huge factors before even getting in the things like the damage they do.
The protoss units are the most disappointing to me. The oracle plays a very similar role to the current overseer, in that it is used for scouting the opponent, and impairing their macro, but they previously stated that the overseer is not a good unit. I don't know why they decided to include such an underwhelming unit.
The replicator I'm kind of 50/50 on. I think it could add some interesting strategy, but it will be tricky to balance. My guess is that they will make sure it isn't too powerful, and we will see it on occasion, though replicating cloaked banshees does seem powerful, so perhaps it won't be too weak. I think it can actually make for some interesting strategies to be honest.
The Tempest seems like a much needed replacement for the phoenix. In other words, I think they should have added a corsair like unit (cheaper cost, can be massed) and leave the carrier in so the protoss air force has some decent air to ground for lighter/smaller units. The void ray, and the Tempest's void ray like attack does not seem impressive for the protoss air force when it comes to attacking ground.
The Terran units seemed quite underwhelming to me. The hellion transformation should be nice for making terran mech more impressive, and the warhound will definitely be a solid replacement for the thor, but I wasn't wowed by either of them. I think the warhound will be interesting when it comes to balancing unit compositions. It can fulfill some good roles, but it doesn't seem that it will be essential in any of them as it kind of plays the role of a maurader on the ground, and a marine for air (again... kind of).
If you read all of that... wow!
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
On October 23 2011 06:14 Ubes wrote: Wish the OP had a breakdown of what each exactly does. I agree. This will have to do for now:
+ Show Spoiler [Terran Battle Hellion] +A state the hellion can morph into in order to change it's functionality. While the current hellion too fragile to be used in the lategame, they wanted to add a unit that could add more diversity to the mech-path of terrans, as well as dealing with the late game chargelot problem. So basically.. it's an end-game fighter version of the hellion. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qFtDu.jpg) + Show Spoiler [Terran Shredder] +This is an entirely new unit. While they didn't want to add another unit to the Terran unit arsenal, they did something entirely different. This unit works alone, and alone only. It's basically a unit that does nothing while un-deployed, and has a fairly short deploy-timer. Once it's deployed it sends out pulses of energy which deals damage to all enemy units in a radius of something which i think looked like 7 or 8 (you'll have to see for yourself). If you have a friendly unit inside the shredders radius, it will de-activate, and not deal damage. So this unit is designed to gain map control, as well as defending chokes etc. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YO9S0.png) + Show Spoiler [Terran Warhound] +A replacement for the Thor's current role in the game. While they won't remove the Thor entirely from the game, they will make it the new "casual über-unit", like the mothership is today. And yes - they are removing the mothership. The warhound is an anti-air unit, with an anti-mech ground attack, designed to wipe out siegetanks and protoss-armies. The warhound is pretty much just a smaller and faster version of the thor. Nothing much else to say. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rz4dw.png) + Show Spoiler [Zerg Viper] +New full zerg spellcaster. Replaces the overseer. Have three abilities. The first one is to grant another unit detection permanently (thus replacing overseer). The second one is "blinding cloud", what it does is prevents units inside the cloud to shoot out of it. The main purpose of the Viper unit is to break chokepoints, and this is it's "main ability". The third spell is <don't have a name>. What it does is either pull a unit towards the Viper, or pushes it away (i think). Sort of like death grip and life grip in wow, if anyone catched that reference. Designed to snipe expensive units such as colossus, siegetank, immortal etc. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ydGwc.png) + Show Spoiler [Zerg Swarm Host] +Zerg artillery unit. It's sort of like a mix between a burrowed broodlord and a lurker. The intention of the unit is to give zerg a unit that gives map control, as well as being able to set the enemy base at "siege". It does nothing while unburrowed, and it's attack only works while burrowed. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TanKd.png) + Show Spoiler [Protoss Replicant] +A new unit that's being built in the Robotics Facility. It's (only) ability is to duplicate a unit that's currently visible on the map. What's interesting to note about this unit is that if you replicate i.e. a banshee, and the terran player doesn't have cloak researched - your replication will have cloak. In other words; whenever you replicate a unit, you'll have all the available upgrades for that unit. Tanks will have siegemode, ravens will have seeker missile etc. It costs 200/200 and 4 supply, so if you replicate a marine, you'll use 4 supply to hold a 1 supply unit. You can indeed replicate workers and build structures with the new worker. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rxlMY.png) + Show Spoiler [Protoss Oracle] +This is the new protoss harass unit. It's a flying units. I'm not certain of which building it's being produced in. It's very "worker friendly", and can't deal damage to workers. It's designed to harass the enemy economy. It has three abilities (as far as I know), the first one is a mineral-block, that puts a shield around enemy mineral-fields, preventing them to be mined until the spell expire, or until the shields are destroyed. The second ability is somewhat similar to what we've seen Zeratul have in the WoL campaign. You can place a "force field" around an enemy building to disable it. I don't know if this will work on production buildings yet, but you can neutralize buildings such as the spine and sporecrawler. The third ability is to see what's being produced in a building. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tzOL2.png) + Show Spoiler [Protoss Tempest] +This is the new "capital ship" for Protoss. It's a tier 3 air unit, that's going to replace Carrier. This unit is a powerful aoe anti-air unit, and does + damage to light units (mutalisk). It also have a fairly powerful ground attack, and is therefore a pretty all-around tier 3 air unit, with lots of utility. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zCOzq.png)
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On October 23 2011 06:23 AWOT wrote: Shredders, the counter to stupidity.
Shredders take time to deploy. You can easily move your workers to safety before it's activated and good to go.
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Kinda makes you wonder if Shredder drops from terran would be cheaper and prevent more mining time... possibly even get some kills in the process... than the oracle
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Shredders will solve that mobility issue mech Terrans have. MMA stomped MVP last night abusing bio mobility. With 4-5 shredders in the back MVP woulda def easy.
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I am not sure why people think the two new units fill the holes of the Zerg. Maybe the Viper but Swarm Host felt underwhelming. I gotta think Infested Terrans are out and the infestor needs to be reworked now. Probably take out dps from fungal growth. Make it a gradual slow to snare.
Protoss units seem to be most radical. And everyone shits on them. I guess cause the replicator feels more zergish in nature. The protoss, the most highly advanced race, has to copy other races units. Haha. Still looks fun to use though. Oracle is okay. Tempest can be ok, if they add an interesting mechanic to it. Like charge the shots out of combat?
WarHound looks like an over-sized SCV. Not kidding. That's what I thought when I saw them in the trailer. "SCV's can fight now?" Everything else is okay. Hope the Thor gets built by an SCV again.
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Hahaha the protoss poll is funny. I need gameplay to draw conclusions. Viper pulling stuff is very silly, they should remove it simply for appearing silly.
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I like the new Zerg and terran changes. Terran is the most finished and well designed race in WoL. The Shredder adds some nice tactical elements to the race, and the size of the Thor makes it look cool, but clunky.... I like that it is replaced with the warhound.
The Zerg changes are very nice. It strengthens the race were it used to be weak. The Viper really gives zerg some flare i feel it lacked in sc2 compared to BW. The swarmhost is also nice, it can put general pressure on a turtling P or T that is just waiting to max out. The ultralisk charge actually makes the good... the Broodlord is so slow, so the new and very mobile ultra will be a nice option. Hydralisk speed upgrade... damn its been needed for ages.
When it comes to Protoss I am not so sure. The Tempest is prolly the best new unit. It seems extremely powerful against clumped air, adding 1-2 with your colossi could be very potent. I cant really make up my mind about the oracle and replicator. They might end up as brilliant units, but they are so different and weird compared to other units, so I think we will just have to wait and see how they operate. But the biggest changes when it comes to protoss are the Nexus spells. The mass recall ability is the biggest change by far of all the changes in HotS... I refuse to believe it will survive through beta. Costing 75 energy it will be usable more than once a minute midgame, and twice a minute lategame (depending on bases ofcourse). This will make the protoss race the most mobile by far, and nearly unharassable. But if they add some global cooldown on all nexi I could see it be somewhat balanced. The defensive structure spell sounds cool, and can add alot of versatility to the race... but sadly it will probably be ubalanced as a cheese tool.
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i really dislike the swarmhost, either the locusts spawn to slow or the entire idea is wrong(somewhat speedy summons that hold longer than 5 sec so you could micro them), you dont get any zoning like the lurker did because hellions will outrun the swarmhost and i think shredder>swarmhost too. as for the ultralisk burrow charge: just make them run over zerglings -> problem solved without an upgrade which seems suspicious to balance for me. i imagine the ultras as burrow forcefield with splash damage. protoss air is like many stated, phoenix should be tempest like and carrier carrierlike, make airtoss viable and review robo tech as for terran im just disappointed, but they looked overall somewhat good in wol so why change much
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1) I like the terran units; I hope they make my pvts more interesting than just bio and the delicate dance of viking\colossus / emp\feedback; mess up a little? Too bad you lose. My favorite is probably the warhound because I miss goliaths. I'm a little afraid the shredder might make terran even more mistake friendly.
2) I love the zerg units as well. The swarm host seems cool, although the broodlings will need to be formidable to make it seem comparable to a lurker. I also like the viper, but I think their cloud ability is the most worrisome; we'll have to wait and see how it effects all aspects of the game.
3) On a positive note, I like the tempest by merit of hating mutalisks. The replicator seems both expensive and situational; I can't see someone working them into their general game plan, other than in a reactionary role. The oracle seems expensive and bad. It's already a huge gamble to go for phoenix oriented play and hoping to survive certain timings, and the phoenix CAN help in battle. Oracles are more expensive than phoenix, and are useless in battle. Because of how niche these units are, and how specific the instances in which they're useful are, toss players probably won't work these into their overarching game plan, and stick to the same tired old WoL tactics.
On the plus side, I love the new recall, especially for pvz- seems really reasonable to do some non-all-in early pressure w/o the fear of losing everything (and the game) now.
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On October 23 2011 06:16 sixfour wrote:i am curious as to what problems the terran race currently has play terran and find out
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I just remembered, Dustin Browder was saying how they didn't want to add more units that would contribute to the deathball, but then they kept the collosus in the game, and added a replacement to the carrier (The Tempest) which will be significantly better in death balls. Now when units like vikings and corruptors are sent out against collosi, Tempest's will be included.... *sigh*
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I dunno if its been asked, but does this mean Terran atm atleast can finally mech TvP?
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The Protoss units seem really stupid and boring. Looks like I'll be sticking with the same unit comp until LotV comes out.
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The Tempest really confuses me, what is Blizzard thinking? A muta ball counter that is so far down the stargate tech tree, probably takes 60s+ to build, and can get sniped by a group of 10 or so corruptors if its anti-light attack is too good, or by the muta ball itself if its underpowered, is not something helpful to protoss. Toss needs something easy to get and highly mobile, like blink stalkers, to take out mutas.
To be honest, I think blizz messed up with the pheonix. They failed to consider that muta splash makes large air engagements favor the mutas a lot more. That spash was the reason ZvZ always got +1 air armor first when fighting mutas with mutas in SC:BW. It is currently wrecking units without splash damage in the air, vikings and pheonix unsupported by rines or stalkers are losing to a unit they should be able to deal with.
Nexus recall is great, and can be useful in defending far away expos, but if the units coming out of it are unable to move for a time, will this just lead to the attackers surrounding and killing the recall quickly?
I have a lot of questions about the new protoss stuff, it does not seem like it will help as much as its supposed to. And giving zerg a new answer to the colossus isn't helping either.
My last comment, giving terran a unit designed to hold unoccupied territory really makes mech intimidating because the only counter for the opponent is to take advantage of the immobility of mech, give terran an answer to counterattacks?
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