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On October 23 2011 21:02 Yosen3002 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 20:56 Big J wrote:On October 23 2011 20:53 Topdoller wrote:
After having a good look at these units, SC2 is starting to look like SC:BW more and more. I just dont know they didnt take SC:BW and give it a revamp in the first place Go play broodwar Ya dunno if you got that, but almost all of the units that are positively recepted are copies of scbw units already. His claim does make a lot of sense or do you think the warhound looks awesome in any way?
Can't see any broodwar copies. Maybe the warhound is one, but seriously Swarm hosts are something completly different than lurkers, vipers are not defilers, just because they cast a spell that's similar to dark swarm... Especially they can't eat zerglings to regenerate energy, which was one of the most fundamental defiler abilities, because it granted that you don't have to mass them, to keep spamming spells.
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I'm disappointed with how the Warhound looks like everyone else. Someone said it best in some reddit thread that it looks like and SCV that went to the gym. Very toy-robot like.
I'd be much happier if they just gave us the unit that all terrans really want - the goliath. Modify the weaponry on it so it fits the new unit's role.
Or, just redesign it so that it's less silly looking.
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Between vikings, ghosts, new hellion and the warhound, how exactly are Protoss supposed to break Terran mech? It looks like everything Terran have cost efficiently counters everything Protoss have.
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Why don't people like the Protoss units?
Not imba enough for you guys?
To me they seem pretty cool and reasonably balanced. Makes sense to not improve the deathball but add cool utility like Oracle harrass and nexus warp-back.
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On October 23 2011 20:56 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 20:53 Topdoller wrote:
After having a good look at these units, SC2 is starting to look like SC:BW more and more. I just dont know they didnt take SC:BW and give it a revamp in the first place Go play broodwar
I will be soon when HOTS is release
Firebat
Lurker
Defiler
Spidermine's
Goliath
Edit : Shame the carrier is dying a death, i really cant see why they just couldnt adjust it. Build time reduction by 15 seconds maybe?
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The only protoss unit I dont like is the replicant.
To me it says we shall make protoss stronger by making them be able to get Terran/Zerg units.
Why do protoss need to copy other races units to be strong?. its a bad mind set to have.
I cant think of many units you would want to copy with it, Maybe a banshee or a raven from terran, And from zerg Infestor's.
Assuming it cant copy SCV's and Drines ofc
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On October 23 2011 21:31 Feridan wrote:
Between vikings, ghosts, new hellion and the warhound, how exactly are Protoss supposed to break Terran mech? It looks like everything Terran have cost efficiently counters everything Protoss have.
That's because Terran has no real weakness. There used to be a weakness you could exploit with ling run-by... oh, Protoss...uhm...yeah...sorry, that's a no-go. But hey, the once almost complete race is now a fully complete race. Yay Terran - apologize (again) for playing that race...
[edit]
Maybe a little bit exaggerating here, but that's how it feels for me everytime I see Terran.
Putting all my last hopes into Whatever-the-fuck the Void ((c)iNcontroL).
[/edit]
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On October 23 2011 21:37 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 20:56 Big J wrote:On October 23 2011 20:53 Topdoller wrote:
After having a good look at these units, SC2 is starting to look like SC:BW more and more. I just dont know they didnt take SC:BW and give it a revamp in the first place Go play broodwar I will be soon when HOTS is release Firebat Lurker Defiler Spidermine's Goliath Edit : Shame the carrier is dying a death, i really cant see why they just couldnt adjust it. Build time reduction by 15 seconds maybe?
so you have never played broodwar?
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United Kingdom12042 Posts
On October 23 2011 21:21 SharkWithLaz0rs wrote:
I'm disappointed with how the Warhound looks like everyone else. Someone said it best in some reddit thread that it looks like and SCV that went to the gym. Very toy-robot like.
I'd be much happier if they just gave us the unit that all terrans really want - the goliath. Modify the weaponry on it so it fits the new unit's role.
Or, just redesign it so that it's less silly looking.
All terrans? Not all terrans want the goliath back. I much prefer the look of the warhound to the goliath that was in the WoL campaign.
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On October 23 2011 21:53 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 21:37 Topdoller wrote:On October 23 2011 20:56 Big J wrote:On October 23 2011 20:53 Topdoller wrote:
After having a good look at these units, SC2 is starting to look like SC:BW more and more. I just dont know they didnt take SC:BW and give it a revamp in the first place Go play broodwar I will be soon when HOTS is release Firebat Lurker Defiler Spidermine's Goliath Edit : Shame the carrier is dying a death, i really cant see why they just couldnt adjust it. Build time reduction by 15 seconds maybe? so you have never played broodwar?
Don't feed dat troll
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On October 23 2011 21:33 Klive5ive wrote:
Why don't people like the Protoss units?
Not imba enough for you guys?
To me they seem pretty cool and reasonably balanced. Makes sense to not improve the deathball but add cool utility like Oracle harrass and nexus warp-back.
I don't know. I was expecting something sick like the Reaver to be introduced for Protoss harass options. But, instead they get possibly the most unexciting unit ever to be introduced in the Starcraft series. (Besides the Corruptor.)
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I think the only units I'm uncertain about are the Replicator and Tempest.
A clone that requires vision to copy should really be cheap, or it's almost never worthwhile.
I want to say that they'd be good if they had a lowish cost and high supply value, but it's really hard to gauge what it would be like.
Tempests are cool, but I don't see why they're needed. They'd be fantastic considering how fragile WoL capital ships are against Corruptors, but now that those two units are being shafted, it seems out of place.
Oracles though, I think will be pretty good. They only use energy to harass, so if they're fast enough they're going to be great. I'm really excited to see how they turn out. Really, the best new Protoss unit is the Nexus, by far.
The Terran and Zerg new units are all awesome and look great. I don't like that the Viper replaces the Overseer though - the units have very different roles.
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On October 23 2011 22:09 justinpal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 21:33 Klive5ive wrote:
Why don't people like the Protoss units?
Not imba enough for you guys?
To me they seem pretty cool and reasonably balanced. Makes sense to not improve the deathball but add cool utility like Oracle harrass and nexus warp-back. I don't know. I was expecting something sick like the Reaver to be introduced for Protoss harass options. But, instead they get possibly the most unexciting unit ever to be introduced in the Starcraft series. (Besides the Corruptor.)
The corruptor can't warp out all the opponents bunkers while your zealots run in.
The corruptor can't shut down a spire while you get some defence up.
The corruptor can't deny a gold expansion.
This unit is going to allow the Protoss to keep up with Zerg macro in the mid-game by just screwing stuff up. I think that's pretty cool.
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On October 23 2011 13:33 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 13:26 kofman wrote:
Blizzard went overboard on the "protoss needs a harras unit" idea. If you look at terran and zerg, the way they harras is with marine drops and mutalisks. Both of these units, in addition to being great harrass, also play key roles in battles too. Meanwhile, the oracle is a purely harass unit that can't do anything other than block minerals and stop production for a little bit. It is completely useless in an actual fight, and it can't even kill scvs. Please, give protoss a mobile harassing unit that can also be used in an actual fight. Not phoenix, which need to use graviton beam to be useful, and especially not oracles. So what if it can't kill SCVs Given the right situation, doing something like disabling all of the Terrans Starports before a Colossus push is stronger than killing 10+ SCVs. People seem to have this ridiculous idea that the only good way of harassing is worker harassing. I think this is a concept that will change come HOTS and the introduction of the Oracle. I don't think people realize how much damage is actually inflicted if you stop your opponent from making specific units for a period of time and how bad of a position it can put them if you are smart about it. Sure it won't be the same as having them slowly die due to lack of economy, but being forced to build but Zealots for the next minute and a half in a PvP can be scarier than losing half your probes. It is even more scary when used with a tactical mind, worker harass slows down production but Phase Shifting completely limits production to a screeching halt. You can easily see the Oracle being used in ways beyond what a typical hellion can do. Something like hindering your opponents Stalker count via Cybernetics and using that time to regain Air control, stopping their early medivac production off their Reacot/Starport, forcing whatever early push they had in mind to come far too late to deal any damage. The only problem is though that there is nothing standard you can do every game, what you choose to harass will most likely be different every game
I'm split with the Oracle. It's damn powerful, I agree with you. I think it's 45sec phase shift atm?
The problem is - that "decision" and "intelligent play" is not really a difficult decision.
"You just won a battle lost your aoe units (colossus) and fear that Zerglings will overrun your stalkers"? Just fly in and phase shift the spawning pool. Do this twice and you basically 1shot a spawning pool (build time 65sec).
Also my personal problem is: it's the same as Fungal Growth / CS / FF. It takes away from the other player.
Your opponent knows "I need to build unit X now", but he just cannot do it. And there's not much for him to do against it. Static defense doesnt help that much "Ups, he had 1 more Oracle than I expected". Leaving units behind "just to be save" weakens the main army more.
Sure he can build every tech structure twice, but really?
Why I like the Oracle:
Is phase shift usable on your own buildings? I think so (it says so in the New Units/Abilities thread). "Oh you attack my 3rd - w00ps denied".
Can you walk through phaseshifted buildings?
If yes: Build a 2 building deep wall, and phaseshift everytime one of your units wants to leave the base. (Phaseshift Pylons and have backup pylons to power your structures). Look at the enemy trying to counterattack, when your "wall" is up.
If no: Just phaseshift your buildings and no one will be able to break your wall.
The mineral shielding is just icing on the cake  Imagine shielding a gold base, when the Terran just used 4 mules at once (while you threaten to attack another path so he cannot just pull away his units to destroy the shields).
The replicant though I hate with a passion. It's just plain boring and I dont want it.
I mourn the loss of the carrier, the phoenix overload ability, researchable on the fleet beacon idea seems just to be a cooler way to deal with massmutas. And it would leave the option to keep the carrier (and buff it like the Ultra / BC). i.e. let them build another type of interceptors who shoot slower & only once, but more powerful (to break units with a high armor value like corruptors better). Or just make them more microable (like in BW).
Oh and I hoped they remove the colossus und move warpgate to tier 3 
Or give the colossus a 2phase mode: Either range 7 but not attackable by air (a nice range to be NPed^^), or range 9 and attackable by air (cannot switch in combat, so a rather long switch time). It would enable people to play air/robo switches.
On October 23 2011 21:33 Klive5ive wrote:
Why don't people like the Protoss units?
Not imba enough for you guys?
To me they seem pretty cool and reasonably balanced. Makes sense to not improve the deathball but add cool utility like Oracle harrass and nexus warp-back.
I think people expected to have big protoss changes which solves the core problem they have (warpgate, FF, weak gateway units, colosossus OP). And basically Blizz didnt adress a single one of those and gave more gimmicky units. People dont want to rely on gimmicky strats (oh you didnt scout my 8 DTs in your main?) or the deathball.
They want to fight multiple battles at once, but since gateway units are very weak when not in a ball (compared to roach/ling, mmm) it's not possible.
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On October 23 2011 22:36 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 22:09 justinpal wrote:On October 23 2011 21:33 Klive5ive wrote:
Why don't people like the Protoss units?
Not imba enough for you guys?
To me they seem pretty cool and reasonably balanced. Makes sense to not improve the deathball but add cool utility like Oracle harrass and nexus warp-back. I don't know. I was expecting something sick like the Reaver to be introduced for Protoss harass options. But, instead they get possibly the most unexciting unit ever to be introduced in the Starcraft series. (Besides the Corruptor.) The corruptor can't warp out all the opponents bunkers while your zealots run in. The corruptor can't shut down a spire while you get some defence up. The corruptor can't deny a gold expansion. This unit is going to allow the Protoss to keep up with Zerg macro in the mid-game by just screwing stuff up. I think that's pretty cool.
Well, its the runner up to the corruptor for a reason. This won't deny expansions if the shields have 50 hp (I think) as marines, lings easily can deal with it. Even workers can kill it. The bunker thing seems interesting...
Edit: Also, I misunderstood the phasing out ability! But, still I can see why Toss is unexcited  .
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I know what this game needs. MORE SPELL CASTERS YEAH
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I can't understand Blizzard's decision to make the Tempest. Firstly, Mutalisks have never been a big problem in PvZ. Secondly, I don't see Protoss players abandoning Collosus/Templar production so that they can get Stargates and a Fleet Beacon and spend 1200/1200 on 4 Tempest that can kill a poorly controlled harassing unit. The only other use I can think of is to protect some Collosus from Corruptors or Vikings. Getting some Tempest would cut into Collosus numbers so heavily that it defeats the purpose of getting them, especially against Vikings which will tear the Tempest apart from long range. I haven't seen the Tempest ground attack but I'm sure it isn't worth the huge investment. Overall the Tempest looks like such a weak unit for its cost, while it attempts to fill a role that wasn't needed. If the Tempest was actually good it would just deter Mutalisk play and promote 'lets smash our deathballs together' games.
The Oracle is a really interesting idea for a harass unit, but it is Stargate tech. So now Stargate has a harass unit in the Phoenix and a unit that is often used for harass in the Void Ray. Blizzard removes the one unit that had potential to build a solid army around from the Stargate and adds another harass unit and the super-situational Tempest. The Oracle is not the unit you would base your entire build around getting. A harass unit for Protoss should be something they can get along the way while going down a tech path that you can actually make an army out of.
I see just one major use for the Replicant. Copying Siege Tanks. The problem with this is that siege tanks are more powerful against Terran than against Protoss. The fact that a Protoss player can make Replicants effectively deters the Terran from making Siege Tanks which in turn makes the matchup less dynamic.
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Blizzard: Plan for tempest
1) announce tempest is replacing carrier knowing it will create backlash
2) appear to care about community by bringing back the carrier
3) make the carrier the most useless unit in the history of rts
4) receive praise for replacing carrier with the tempest
5) ???
6) profit!
7) make tempest useless to troll community after they rejected the tempest
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The replicant seems like an okay design decision, because its purpose is clear and it has a lot of utility without sacrificing functionality.
On the other hand, This game is feeling a lot like those other RTS games that have a bunch of wacky units that do something flashy and cool, like soulstorm and C&C.
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On October 23 2011 21:33 Klive5ive wrote:
Why don't people like the Protoss units?
Not imba enough for you guys?
To me they seem pretty cool and reasonably balanced. Makes sense to not improve the deathball but add cool utility like Oracle harrass and nexus warp-back.
I like the idea of the Oracle but I don't think it seems strong enough in it's current form. The nexus abilities are great too but while we are not getting any units that improve our army composition terran get several new units that counter protoss even more.
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EPT
