Protoss is going in a very strange direction, and I honestly don't think Blizzard knows what it's trying to do with the race. They seem afraid of moving it back to its original image of strong, expensive, slow-producing core units with strong AOE support units.
This whole movement away from the original image actually started with the introduction of Warpgates. As Protoss mobility went up, the robustness of its core units went down. Now in HotS we have cute little units like the Replicant, the Oracle and the straight-up-good-against-mass-muta-only Tempest.
What needs to happen is a complete redesign that adheres faithfully to the original Protoss image of robust, more expensive, not-too-mobile, slower-producing core units with few, but powerful, AOE supporting units. Then, let the metagame settle around this new redesign and patch accordingly.
On October 23 2011 16:30 GiygaS wrote: Honestly, I'm thinking of switching to Terran before HotS makes me. All of these units will effect Protoss strategy in absolutely no way except the tempest in very specific situations. Why don't we get an area-control unit?
On October 23 2011 07:02 Wildsound wrote: I feel like protoss just isnt being given the right design and direction that it should be. What that should be I don't know, but this just doesnt feel right. Zerg had some similar issues, but I feel they are starting to get there with their ideas.
On October 23 2011 14:47 Imbak333 wrote: why are protoss getting a unit thats purpose is to kill big flocks of mutas.... mutas are horrible in zvp
Mutas switches are incredibly difficult to stop. A large muta flock is basically gg. Loads of top Zergs use them in ZvP.
I like the Tempest - ability to wrest air control, and generally dominate as Protoss should be able to do given enough $$. Oracle sounds cool too, for that harass we so badly need.
Now the question lies in that can the Zerg magic box/split micro the Mutas against the Tempest?
I don't actually know how the Tempest works but as far as I've seen, it's just a huge Corsair which means it's possible to just magic box the hell out of the thing.
Tempests should be cost-effective against Mutas(Just like Thors now) but when those starts to appear, the Zerg should have speed Hydras and possibly a couple Vipers to prevent the Colossi from murdering everything meaning that the Protoss can have a Replicant or two to get Vipers of his own to render the Hydras worthless.
The TIG interview with IMMVP/nestea/coach gives their opinion on the new units.
IMMVP says he doesn't think terran playstyle will change much, and that the shredder will be very powerful if used correctly.
Nestea likes the new units but is worried that zerg is going to require even more things to take care of (creep, inject + complex unit micro management like ultralisk burrow charge).
(IMMVP played nestea tvz, and won playing mech.)
The coach played toss, and said the new units give a set of harassing capabilities so the toss can change the gameflow quite a bit, giving them the upper hand in controlling the game, and that he's looking forward to the expansion. He also talked about the zerg units, saying that the usage of viper will likely distinguish the A-level and B-level zerg players in HOTS.
Battle Hellion - No Shredder - Yes Warhound - No Terran Overall - Yes Viper - Yes Swarm Host - Yes Zerg Overall - Yes Replicant - Honestly, fuck knows, need to try it out first Oracle - Same as above, like the idea, might be too gimmicky though Tempest - Yes Protoss Overall - Maybe
I don't even want a tempest. We have phoenix for anti-muta which works perfectly fine. The ONLY and I mean ONLY thing Carriers need is a REDUCTION IN BUILD TIME!
On October 23 2011 14:47 Imbak333 wrote: why are protoss getting a unit thats purpose is to kill big flocks of mutas.... mutas are horrible in zvp
Mutas switches are incredibly difficult to stop. A large muta flock is basically gg. Loads of top Zergs use them in ZvP.
I like the Tempest - ability to wrest air control, and generally dominate as Protoss should be able to do given enough $$. Oracle sounds cool too, for that harass we so badly need.
Now the question lies in that can the Zerg magic box/split micro the Mutas against the Tempest?
I don't actually know how the Tempest works but as far as I've seen, it's just a huge Corsair which means it's possible to just magic box the hell out of the thing.
Tempests should be cost-effective against Mutas(Just like Thors now) but when those starts to appear, the Zerg should have speed Hydras and possibly a couple Vipers to prevent the Colossi from murdering everything meaning that the Protoss can have a Replicant or two to get Vipers of his own to render the Hydras worthless.
I'm starting to like this expansion already.
Ok, first of all, whomever said mutas are bad in ZvP needs to go try them out, they're great at it. Second, if you listen to Dustin Browder & David Kim describing the new units, he got that particular question during the Q&A about how Tempest will fare vs magic boxing. They said that yes, it might help a little, but generally the Tempest's AA splash is enormous, and magic boxing actually wont help very much.
On October 23 2011 05:50 KingRajesh wrote: All of the units, INCLUDING THE ORACLE, add utility.
I'm most excited for the zerg units, because I play Zerg. Swarm Hosts, from what I saw in Dustin Browder's videos, fire too slow. They need to fire at broodlord speeds.
The Viper is going to be awesome. Vipers pull in the colossus, infestor's NP them, GG.
I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that if the Viper occurs it will replace the infestor.
Lore wise protoss is the worst its ever been. The new units are nothing like protoss of old, and they seem really silly. Where are our cool bad ass units? What happened to the high temp? If any unit needs a remake its the high templar.
Replicant- Protoss units suck so we'll give you a cost ineffective way to be another race Oracle-Confusing, non attacking unit that will easily be countered by static defenses Tempest- Okay, if it actually does good enough ground damage (marine counter anyone?)
Zergs looking okay, terran...is decent I suppose dont really need additions. This expansion just makes me sad-face on where they are taking protoss. I am actually more happy about the nexus changes than the actual units.
Love both Zerg units+Ultralisk charge. They seem to have nailed the weaknesses of the race perfectly. Only thing that annoys me is the slight delay on detection which could make DT/Banshee harass much more powerful, but I'm pretty optimistic they'll sort that out
Terran units aren't flashy but they make sense. Really makes Terran less reliant on the MMM, which in turn can help them lower the power of the dreaded marine and marauder, something they can't do right now without crippling the entire race
We're really going to have to wait and see with the Protoss units. Tempest seems like a nice upgrade over the Carrier, with more of a defined role than its predecessor. But the Oracle and Replicant are controversial to say the least
On October 23 2011 17:37 Xenomorph wrote: Lore wise protoss is the worst its ever been. The new units are nothing like protoss of old, and they seem really silly. Where are our cool bad ass units? What happened to the high temp? If any unit needs a remake its the high templar.
Replicant- Protoss units suck so we'll give you a cost ineffective way to be another race Oracle-Confusing, non attacking unit that will easily be countered by static defenses Tempest- Okay, if it actually does good enough ground damage (marine counter anyone?)
Zergs looking okay, terran...is decent I suppose dont really need additions. This expansion just makes me sad-face on where they are taking protoss. I am actually more happy about the nexus changes than the actual units.
On October 23 2011 17:00 LunarC wrote: Protoss is going in a very strange direction, and I honestly don't think Blizzard knows what it's trying to do with the race. They seem afraid of moving it back to its original image of strong, expensive, slow-producing core units with strong AOE support units.
This whole movement away from the original image actually started with the introduction of Warpgates. As Protoss mobility went up, the robustness of its core units went down. Now in HotS we have cute little units like the Replicant, the Oracle and the straight-up-good-against-mass-muta-only Tempest.
What needs to happen is a complete redesign that adheres faithfully to the original Protoss image of robust, more expensive, not-too-mobile, slower-producing core units with few, but powerful, AOE supporting units. Then, let the metagame settle around this new redesign and patch accordingly.
This is an excellent post that addresses the core problem of the Protoss design at the current stage. Protoss no longer has a foundational base of "strong, expensive and slow-producing" units, rather it is an undecided mix of everything. Blizzard doesn't convey to us a clear direction with this race.
A perfect example of what I mean is evident in the design of the Replicant. All it does is just copy units from another race for the sake of fixing Protoss' own problems.
On October 23 2011 17:37 Xenomorph wrote: Lore wise protoss is the worst its ever been. The new units are nothing like protoss of old, and they seem really silly. Where are our cool bad ass units? What happened to the high temp? If any unit needs a remake its the high templar.
Replicant- Protoss units suck so we'll give you a cost ineffective way to be another race Oracle-Confusing, non attacking unit that will easily be countered by static defenses Tempest- Okay, if it actually does good enough ground damage (marine counter anyone?)
Zergs looking okay, terran...is decent I suppose dont really need additions. This expansion just makes me sad-face on where they are taking protoss. I am actually more happy about the nexus changes than the actual units.
What's wrong with the High Templar? LOL
The main issue is in PvT, since snipe and EMP both outrange feedback.
They're slow, but they're not bad. I do miss 100+ damage storms, though...
On October 23 2011 17:37 Xenomorph wrote: Lore wise protoss is the worst its ever been. The new units are nothing like protoss of old, and they seem really silly. Where are our cool bad ass units? What happened to the high temp? If any unit needs a remake its the high templar.
Replicant- Protoss units suck so we'll give you a cost ineffective way to be another race Oracle-Confusing, non attacking unit that will easily be countered by static defenses Tempest- Okay, if it actually does good enough ground damage (marine counter anyone?)
Zergs looking okay, terran...is decent I suppose dont really need additions. This expansion just makes me sad-face on where they are taking protoss. I am actually more happy about the nexus changes than the actual units.
What's wrong with the High Templar? LOL
It no longer has the power to kill lots of stuff, partially because the amount of tanking units have increased (roach, marauder) that can shrug off damage and partially because smart casting means the power of storm had to be nerfed as it is too easy to fill the screen with storms. Unfortunately this means ht are no longer the feared unit they used to be, cleaning out worker lines and forcing storm dodging or ht sniping. Most of the time, the correct response to storms is just wait it out and keep on firing. Storms used to be good against tanks even, but now ht are weak- not balance wise, but design wise compared to bw.
On October 23 2011 17:37 Xenomorph wrote: Lore wise protoss is the worst its ever been. The new units are nothing like protoss of old, and they seem really silly. Where are our cool bad ass units? What happened to the high temp? If any unit needs a remake its the high templar.
Replicant- Protoss units suck so we'll give you a cost ineffective way to be another race Oracle-Confusing, non attacking unit that will easily be countered by static defenses Tempest- Okay, if it actually does good enough ground damage (marine counter anyone?)
Zergs looking okay, terran...is decent I suppose dont really need additions. This expansion just makes me sad-face on where they are taking protoss. I am actually more happy about the nexus changes than the actual units.
What's wrong with the High Templar? LOL
It no longer has the power to kill lots of stuff, partially because the amount of tanking units have increased (roach, marauder) that can shrug off damage and partially because smart casting means the power of storm had to be nerfed as it is too easy to fill the screen with storms. Unfortunately this means ht are no longer the feared unit they used to be, cleaning out worker lines and forcing storm dodging or ht sniping. Most of the time, the correct response to storms is just wait it out and keep on firing. Storms used to be good against tanks even, but now ht are weak- not balance wise, but design wise compared to bw.
Why don't you try having your army just standing getting stormed and see how that goes for you!?
EPT
