Alright, this is pretty self-explanatory. Vote on the concept of the unit as a whole, and don't vote on numbers unless they're significant (IE, you believe the Tempest should be a tier 1 unit and any other way it's useless).
The final question in each race's poll is whether you like the direction that Blizzard is taking each race's playstyle. Keep in mind the other races' changes as well when considering this option.
I get that the polls aren't laid out well and don't look very pretty right now, but that shouldn't be an issue.
Hmm, I think Blizzard is generally moving in the right direction. Will need to do a lot of beta testing and tinkering imo. Swarm host just doesnt look strong to me imo, it's a ground broodlord >_>
I think the oracle is kind of bad, but i REALLY love the tempest. And i especially love the temporary canons of gateway, finally p has a possibility to actually defend with a gateway first just like t and z ( spines and bunkers). and apparently day nine did a nice pylon rush against jp where he planted pylons behind the mineral line and used that ability to "canon rush" :D
I will only like the Viper if its name is changed to Defiler. Im not using a unit that reminds me of a douchey underachieving 90s bully with a snake tatoo on his arm; which is used by shaking his arm back and forth to allow the snake rattle. Fun fact, snakes are a reptile. Also Viper is a stupid name.
The warhound/swarm host seem like a huge slap in the face by blizzard. They don't want to copy BW, so they make worse versions and very similar mechanics of classic units loved by most from the community. It makes no sense.
On October 23 2011 05:48 kofman wrote: Yea, the toss units are a joke. A bunch of cutesy units that won't actually do shit.
I agree that toss is once again getting gimmicky units that are flashy on paper, but I'm not upset with the tempest at all. I think that unit will be pretty awesome.
All of the units, INCLUDING THE ORACLE, add utility.
I'm most excited for the zerg units, because I play Zerg. Swarm Hosts, from what I saw in Dustin Browder's videos, fire too slow. They need to fire at broodlord speeds.
The Viper is going to be awesome. Vipers pull in the colossus, infestor's NP them, GG.
Swarm Host doesn't make sense to me. It's basically a brood lord, but you can also do about the same thing with burrowed infestors. You can just use infested terrans in the exact same way, and have more control over when to spawn them and where.
I don't like the Viper's pulling ability, but the other ones seem pretty cool.
I don't know if the replicant really fits, and the oracle needs some work. The tempest seems alright.
Terran units I'm pretty happy with, other than the model for the Warhound. I think it needs to look a little more stable in the legs.
On October 23 2011 05:47 decaf wrote: The warhound is ridiculously ugly. + Show Spoiler +
J5 rocked man!
On a more serious note, I think all of the units have great potential... absolutely no point in trying to judge their actual usefulness yet; far too early.
The unit I really just don't understand is the battle hellion. The counter to "a hellion only costs 100 minerals" is "well, that's because a hellion can ONLY be used for harass and scouting, and it's a terrible unit in a straight up fight" so what does blizzard do? Make the hellion a viable unit in a straight up fight.
The toss units are a great addition..the real problem is still the colossus and shittiness of gateway units design theme they seem to want to infinitely ignore. Who knows how the tempest will turn out, seems fairly unimaginative (an upgraded voidray with AA splash?) but it has a cute model.
Why don't they just throw in a bunch of campaign units and let everyone have fun and THEN decide what to keep and what to cut?
Swarm host's entire job seems to be providing cannon fodder for other units to do damage to entrenched positions. I think zerglings will be cheaper/more mobile replacements for small groups of enemies and brood lords are much better for large groups. We'll have to see how effective it is at its job but judging from the video, 9 swarm hosts took awhile to take down 1.5 bunkers.
Interesting based on the results we see that Protoss players aren't happy with the units. Terran i thought was fine in all honestly, but the units are cool. Zerg got a lot of help, these units were things they needed, but god is zerg gonna be scary or what?
Glad to see I wasn't the only protoss player thinking these proposed units were a step backwards for our race. Which one of these expensive wastes of tech helps our early game scouting? Fortunately there is going to be a lot more testing before release, so we should see some improvements. Shouldn't we?
On October 23 2011 05:47 BushidoSnipr wrote: Why is TL hatin on the toss units..I think theyre amazing and will definitely help the race out a TON (<--- zerg player)
A major problem is the replica thing because when you go into a game as a certain race you want to play that race. Not build the other races units at an overexpensive cost.
Also blizzard saying that "maybe protoss players have a hard time with ghost now we want to give them the ability to use them". I mean COME ON, ghosts are good because they get the shields away making zealots melt and taking away ht energy.. it is by far nothing i want to use vs a terran army. Blizzard why would i want to make more expensive ghosts to counter ghost so they cant counter my gateway stuff? Really?
You can't really say yet whether you like them or not since you don't know how they will actually be used in multiplayer. All I can say is that Hots seems to be more micro heavy than WoL. I like it .
From what i've seen i like the new zerg units, it looks to me like theyre getting sc2 version of the lurker, and a flying defiler.
the terran units are OKAY, theyve given back the firebat in vikinglike fashion, theyve given some weird shreddery spiderman like thing for some map control, and theyve given back the goliath, but personally i think it looks like a piece of shit and they should have just brought back the goliatch cos it looks cooler.
but i HATE the protoss changes, theyve taken away our carrier because its never used (because its impossible to use) and replaced it with the unit which should be what the phoenix is...except theyre putting it in the role of a carrier....so it will never get used... because zergs will have transitioned out of mass muta into corrupter viper broodlord by the time u have a feelt beacon out anyways....
the oracle and replicant are two little shitty looking floating orbs... really? one of them is a "harassment" unit, that doesnt even kill probs, just puts stasis on mineral fields (which apparently are destructible too) and the other costs 200/200 and 4 supply and all is basically a changeling, that CANT turn into anything useful like a battlecruiser or an ultralisk, but into something like A marine, or A hellion, or A tank
only usefulness i can see for that unit is in pvp, where copying an immortal or something could switch the tide.. but thats still an extra 100 gas for an immortal :/
not only that but they took away the mothership, which is GOOD....BUT... they didnt give us back our arbiters, instead they gave us a wc3 scroll of town portal -_-
1. Terran didn't need new stuff, but I do like goliath substitute instead of Thors (notice multiple).
2. Zerg units are sick as, really going to make Z all the more potent and powerful.
3. Protoss Replicant and Oracle are gimmicky. I don't see them being properly utilized in properly meaningful ways. I wanted a "raider" unit that actually killed things. Tempest is ok (great against mutaliskuuuu ZvP meta-shift) but i'm mourning the death of the Carrier
On October 23 2011 05:47 BushidoSnipr wrote: Why is TL hatin on the toss units..I think theyre amazing and will definitely help the race out a TON (<--- zerg player)
A major problem is the replica thing because when you go into a game as a certain race you want to play that race. Not build the other races units at an overexpensive cost.
Also blizzard saying that "maybe protoss players have a hard time with ghost now we want to give them the ability to use them". I mean COME ON, ghosts are good because they get the shields away making zealots melt and taking away ht energy.. it is by far nothing i want to use vs a terran army. Blizzard why would i want to make more expensive ghosts to counter ghost so they cant counter my gateway stuff? Really?
No, they still counter your gateway stuff... because you dont steal the ghost... you just replicate it... they still get the ghost... you get a ghost too...
On October 23 2011 05:47 BushidoSnipr wrote: Why is TL hatin on the toss units..I think theyre amazing and will definitely help the race out a TON (<--- zerg player)
We want insta-win buttons! We want cloaked archons and flying banelings!
On October 23 2011 05:47 BushidoSnipr wrote: Why is TL hatin on the toss units..I think theyre amazing and will definitely help the race out a TON (<--- zerg player)
A major problem is the replica thing because when you go into a game as a certain race you want to play that race. Not build the other races units at an overexpensive cost.
Also blizzard saying that "maybe protoss players have a hard time with ghost now we want to give them the ability to use them". I mean COME ON, ghosts are good because they get the shields away making zealots melt and taking away ht energy.. it is by far nothing i want to use vs a terran army. Blizzard why would i want to make more expensive ghosts to counter ghost so they cant counter my gateway stuff? Really?
No, they still counter your gateway stuff... because you dont steal the ghost... you just replicate it... they still get the ghost... you get a ghost too...
I know, I meant that I need to get ghosts to emp their ghosts so they cant emp my shit ;d WHICH IS RETARDED.
On October 23 2011 05:55 AWOT wrote: The real question with Swarm Hosts is does it have a longer range than a siege tank? If not then I see no purpose in a ZvT with them.
The units it produces last 15 seconds and seem to move pretty fast. With 90 hp I think they would often reach tank lines too. I think it ends up being like the Broodlord, where you're forcing the terran to unsiege if he doesn't want to kill his own units with tank fire.
It looks effective, but I still don't think it's as cool as the lurker though.
On October 23 2011 05:47 BushidoSnipr wrote: Why is TL hatin on the toss units..I think theyre amazing and will definitely help the race out a TON (<--- zerg player)
A major problem is the replica thing because when you go into a game as a certain race you want to play that race. Not build the other races units at an overexpensive cost.
Also blizzard saying that "maybe protoss players have a hard time with ghost now we want to give them the ability to use them". I mean COME ON, ghosts are good because they get the shields away making zealots melt and taking away ht energy.. it is by far nothing i want to use vs a terran army. Blizzard why would i want to make more expensive ghosts to counter ghost so they cant counter my gateway stuff? Really?
No, they still counter your gateway stuff... because you dont steal the ghost... you just replicate it... they still get the ghost... you get a ghost too...
I know, I meant that I need to get ghosts to emp their ghosts so they cant emp my shit ;d WHICH IS BALLER AS FUCK!.
On October 23 2011 05:52 Horse...falcon wrote: Swarm host's entire job seems to be providing cannon fodder for other units to do damage to entrenched positions. I think zerglings will be cheaper/more mobile replacements for small groups of enemies and brood lords are much better for large groups. We'll have to see how effective it is at its job but judging from the video, 9 swarm hosts took awhile to take down 1.5 bunkers.
i dont see it being very useful, they spawn so slow, and it looks like a quick scan will kill them pretty easily
Replicant: No It looks like: Hey! Now you can have some real units (like an infestor, a banshee, etc...) instead of your useless stuff
Oracle: Yes/Maybe It have some potential in PvZ imho
Tempest: No I want the "old" carrier and the "old" arbiter back, Tempest looks like a Valkyrie with a different skin. And btw it seems ironic that the protoss "capital ship" is just a counter to one single Tier 2 zerg unit.
Do you think these P units fill the problems of the race as a whole? I don't know. Some stuff like the new nexus abilities can really help btw.
I like the direction they are heading with terran - more mech in TvP especially, but I would have strongly preferred goliaths and vultures and a removal of the marauuder. Either way, they are trying to make mech more viable.
On October 23 2011 06:02 Buzzo wrote: Replicant: No It looks like: Hey! Now you can have some real units (like an infestor, a banshee, etc...) instead of your useless stuff
Oracle: Yes/Maybe It have some potential in PvZ imho
Tempest: No I want the "old" carrier and the "old" arbiter back, Tempest looks like a Valkyrie with a different skin. And btw it seems ironic that the protoss "capital ship" is just a counter to one single Tier 2 zerg unit.
Do you think these P units fill the problems of the race as a whole? I don't know. Some stuff like the new nexus abilities can really help btw.
Yeah, the Nexus abilities are the only things I'm really excited about.
The replicant seems just like a bit of a cop-out. As if the issues with protoss were not really well understood so they create an expensive everything unit and just hope it all works out.
I really like the idea of the warhound, as it makes mech early game more durable to gateway timings as well as stargate allins and such. this unit will anso make mech against z fairly good as you wont have to worry about getting thors neural parasited, as it wont be too useful to neural a couple of warhounds. So playing mass mutas where you camp their thor production and force a ton of turrets wont be quite as viable. Decent anti air lategame with mech and good early game sound good to me.
As a Terran I'm still not sold on The battle Hellion the other units I like though. I think they will add some nice versatility to Terran in terms of army composition and the viability of pure mech in all match ups.
The battle hellion though, from the trailers and game play clips the hellion acts in a fashion similar to the viking in that it transforms so it looks like I could run them into a base in speedy mode then transform them into unkillable worker toasters and that seems slightly imbalanced to me but time will tell. I would rather they kept the hellion as it is and instead added another unit to Terran mech that does the same or similar job as the battle hellion basically one to shred light units but is not very mobile and can only shoot ground units. That could be way to many units for Terran though.
Also not keen on the replicant as it seems as though the role is to copy important units to either counter your enemys composition such as copy ghosts to EMP ghosts that were built to EMP Templar and sentries and that seems verry strong or to copy higher supply units to get more of them for the same supply.
Who else is going to try to go mass marine as Protoss as soon as the expansion comes out?
Vyper looks a bit silly, all the Terran units walk on 2 legs now, and Carriers ()and MofoShips got removed, but I'm still looking forward to having real Stargate units.
On October 23 2011 06:08 Geovu wrote: Who else is going to try to go mass marine as Protoss as soon as the expansion comes out?
Vyper looks a bit silly, all the Terran units walk on 2 legs now, and Carriers ()and MofoShips got removed, but I'm still looking forward to having real Stargate units.
as Terran the Shredder looks awesome, but could be abused and overpowered. If you block off a path to an expansion with those, why use a PF at all?
Terran always had problems with run by's and raids on expos, and sealing off sections of the map to make a more direct and narrow path to the enemy is ideal for them. Though I heard its expensive. Who knows really how to balance this unit, but I like the idea.
On October 23 2011 06:07 MarcH wrote: As a Terran I'm still not sold on The battle Hellion the other units I like though. I think they will add some nice versatility to Terran in terms of army composition and the viability of pure mech in all match ups.
The battle hellion though, from the trailers and game play clips the hellion acts in a fashion similar to the viking in that it transforms so it looks like I could run them into a base in speedy mode then transform them into unkillable worker toasters and that seems slightly imbalanced to me but time will tell. I would rather they kept the hellion as it is and instead added another unit to Terran mech that does the same or similar job as the battle hellion basically one to shred light units but is not very mobile and can only shoot ground units. That could be way to many units for Terran though.
Also not keen on the replicant as it seems as though the role is to copy important units to either counter your enemys composition such as copy ghosts to EMP ghosts that were built to EMP Templar and sentries and that seems verry strong or to copy higher supply units to get more of them for the same supply.
workers move faster than the hellion thats in battlemode.. so no u wont be able to kill workers in battleform .. however if you playing against someone whos afk, then yes
I think protoss need more combat units and not some way too expensive units that deal no damage.
The replicant though I like, but it just can't be balanced. It will either be too powerful replicating siege tanks and broodlords or too weak replicating roaches or helions.
Meh every unit bar the Viper looks boring and doesn't seem to fit into the game all too much. Swarm Host is nice.. but every 24 seconds they make really strong shit that survive for 15 seconds? I think 24 seconds is way too long and the locusts should be nerfed, it's not swarm-like if it's like a fucking reaver. It needs to be fast and I'd gladly trade the locusts strength to be halfed for it, even survival time.
Protoss units sound dumb except the Tempest. And all the Terran units are just going to make Terran even more noob friendly.
I just don't like the idea of the replicant. It seems like it could be useful but it just does not seem to fit with the "feel" of protoss. I will reserve judgement on the Oracle until I can see it in the hands of some pros.
On October 23 2011 06:10 251 wrote: as Terran the Shredder looks awesome, but could be abused and overpowered. If you block off a path to an expansion with those, why use a PF at all?
Terran always had problems with run by's and raids on expos, and sealing off sections of the map to make a more direct and narrow path to the enemy is ideal for them. Though I heard its expensive. Who knows really how to balance this unit, but I like the idea.
yeah-- possibly, doesn't look like you could take it out with lings,making runby's much much more difficult.
On October 23 2011 06:08 Geovu wrote: Who else is going to try to go mass marine as Protoss as soon as the expansion comes out?
Vyper looks a bit silly, all the Terran units walk on 2 legs now, and Carriers ()and MofoShips got removed, but I'm still looking forward to having real Stargate units.
On October 23 2011 06:05 Horseballs wrote: I like the direction they are heading with terran - more mech in TvP especially, but I would have strongly preferred goliaths and vultures and a removal of the marauuder. Either way, they are trying to make mech more viable.
Hmm I think it does things for all 3 matchups
1. Siege tanks are too ubiquitous in TvT so they wanted something that tears up tanks (personally I thought marauders already did this quite well).
2. Terrans lategame TvP options are still based on bio + medivac which is boring compared to the wide gamut of options a protoss can bring with archons, zealots, stalkers, collosus, ht, immortals, etc. This will hopefully allow terrans to mix it up with a wider variety of units.
3. They flat out said they want something that can react to mutalisks better than thors so there's that. Also mass lings will be easily cleaned up by battle hellions and ling runbys will die to the shredder.
I like that these new units are good when mixed into the existing terran composition.
people who keep saying Swam host is just a ground BL, its got a similar design but its an entire tier lower and dosent need Greater spire +corruptors, and they wont get chewed up by vikings
Having both, backed by infestors will make zerg silly good! cant wait
On October 23 2011 06:07 MarcH wrote: As a Terran I'm still not sold on The battle Hellion the other units I like though. I think they will add some nice versatility to Terran in terms of army composition and the viability of pure mech in all match ups.
The battle hellion though, from the trailers and game play clips the hellion acts in a fashion similar to the viking in that it transforms so it looks like I could run them into a base in speedy mode then transform them into unkillable worker toasters and that seems slightly imbalanced to me but time will tell. I would rather they kept the hellion as it is and instead added another unit to Terran mech that does the same or similar job as the battle hellion basically one to shred light units but is not very mobile and can only shoot ground units. That could be way to many units for Terran though.
Also not keen on the replicant as it seems as though the role is to copy important units to either counter your enemys composition such as copy ghosts to EMP ghosts that were built to EMP Templar and sentries and that seems verry strong or to copy higher supply units to get more of them for the same supply.
workers move faster than the hellion thats in battlemode.. so no u wont be able to kill workers in battleform .. however if you playing against someone whos afk, then yes
That all depends on base layout and the amount of space around a mineral line as if any chokes are created by this then getting the workers away is a real pain also in late game situations monitoring multiple bases can tax even the best players.
I just dont like the idea of a unit that has both a lot of mobility and map presence that also has the option to become hard to kill It just looks off to me
As a zerg player I think: - Battle Hellion wont be used much. Since the hellions are used for harass mostly in later stages even with this new upgrade they wont be as efficient as the usual mix of units. - Warhound will take some of the advantage the mutas had against the Thors - the speed. They will be able to hunt them easier. I guess they will be more fragile so boxing on top of them might prove to be more useful. - Shredder will annihilate zerglings run by's
- Oracle will be nice harassment unit. I think that protosses need one (not that they don't have the phoenix harass now). Against terran it might be quite handy. - Replicant might be a bit too powerfull tho. Colossi stalker ball with the help of siege tanks against terran will be something really tough. Against zerg with infestors or vipers will be quite useful too. - I don't really see the need of Tempest tho. Protosses already have phoenixes which are really good against mutas. They don't need another unit that is built to be used against mutas.
- Lack of overseers makes me mad. I think DT's and banshee harass will be much more useful against zergs now. Not sure what are the requirements of the viper but since it is flying I think it will require spire - which requires a lot of time to build. And maybe a zerg player doesnt want to go for a spire.. what then?! With only spore crawlers defense will be weaker. -Viper seem nice. Finally something that helps breaking siege lines. TvZ will be much more interesting now. And Hydra roach will be useful against stalker/colossi mix which I find pretty nice. - Swarm Host seems like the try of Blizz to give us back Lurker. But it is just crappy as hell. For the sake of god.. you need at least 5 to do dmg against a pack of marines. I think it will require a faster attack speed or something
Tempest is good is you can ever get to it...It's like getting to carriers..it dosen't happen..and if they go roaches a collsi is better ground attack than tempest so it would be pointless to get them unless it's vs muta but then it's a hell of long way away and cost to much I think.
Also, the harass unit we get is gay as hell. Protoss needs a harass unit like the muta. I want to be able to cripple the other person, not hope he doesnt have a few units there so my gimmick works.
On October 23 2011 06:08 Geovu wrote: Who else is going to try to go mass marine as Protoss as soon as the expansion comes out?
Vyper looks a bit silly, all the Terran units walk on 2 legs now, and Carriers ()and MofoShips got removed, but I'm still looking forward to having real Stargate units.
200 gas per marine?
Good luck with that.
Still will be more cost effective than stalkers.
If your stalkers are being that cost ineffective then it's not a problem with the unit.
On October 23 2011 06:10 TheBomb wrote: I think protoss need more combat units and not some way too expensive units that deal no damage.
The replicant though I like, but it just can't be balanced. It will either be too powerful replicating siege tanks and broodlords or too weak replicating roaches or helions.
Broodlords are the only units I can see worth stealing... might have some PvP applications...
In other news, now you don't have to worry about getting kited by terran players as protoss...because now they don't have to kite anymore, just tank you with their firebat hellions...
The most important thing to me right now is whether the ideas themselves are good, don't care that much about specific values of everything in the current alpha build. My general impressions:
1. Zerg units seem great. They help the race in specific situations where it used to be weak beforehand, and their abilities are just useful in a general sense, which gives them a lot of versatility. The Viper detection stuff seems a bit silly and awkward, but good stuff otherwise.
2. Terran units seem like a "let's make Mech as good as bio" attempt, which is nice. The way Warhound was presented worries me a bit though, since it worked as a sort of replacement to tanks in the video they've shown. I hope they're not retarded enough to try and make Mech work without Tanks, that would be stupid as hell. Shredder looks like another failsafe Terran can fall back on when they screw up, which fits the race well I guess.
3. Protoss units seem awful. They feel very gimmicky, and don't address the main problems with Protoss in WoL at all. The Nexus changes are way better than the units, but 75 energy Recall will never make it live. I'd instantly trade all of the new P units for Recall staying the way it is, actually.
On October 23 2011 06:10 TheBomb wrote: I think protoss need more combat units and not some way too expensive units that deal no damage.
The replicant though I like, but it just can't be balanced. It will either be too powerful replicating siege tanks and broodlords or too weak replicating roaches or helions.
Broodlords are the only units I can see worth stealing... might have some PvP applications...
In other news, now you don't have to worry about getting kited by terran players as protoss...because now they don't have to kite anymore, just tank you with their firebat hellions...
You can't replicate Massive units and Broodlords are massive.
IMO the only things worth replicating are things like Siege Tanks or other race's casters.
Currently you can replicate Workers but I think they'll cut that out in the beta.
I just don't like the Replicator - while it might be nice from a flashy, childish sort of way, and also enable some pretty awesome skill showing off in high levels, I think it is bad for two reasons:
1) Too hard to balance. I think it will be either far too good, or (more likely) just really bad except vs 1 or 2 army compositions and timings (1-1-1 springs to mind, getting a Raven of your own is pretty useful).
2) Really badly fitting with the Protoss themes/concept. Why would Protoss EVER decide to copy an inferior race's units? This seems like a very Zergy thing to do, not Protoss. Also, I want to beat my opponent with Protoss units, shiny psi-blades and psionic storms and crazy entities made of Warp Energy. Not Seige tanks or Infestors - it just seems like a cop out. It doesn't look as cool, seeing Zealots + Seige Tank vs Marine/Tank. Why can't they add another unit which actually feels Protoss-y?
That's just from a design standpoint, not looking at the gas/mineral cost etc because that's just semantics and easily changed.
I'm a little confused by the terran changes. The changes are really cool, but don't seem like they fit in with how the race works. The shredder is another map control unit for a race with already amazing map control. And the battle hellion is a very cool idea, but hellions are already a damn good unit. Why do they need to be made even better?
i like all of the terran units, but the warhound looks terrible and the battle hellion also could need a visual redesign. i'm pretty sure the replicant will get removed
On October 23 2011 06:08 Geovu wrote: Who else is going to try to go mass marine as Protoss as soon as the expansion comes out?
Vyper looks a bit silly, all the Terran units walk on 2 legs now, and Carriers ()and MofoShips got removed, but I'm still looking forward to having real Stargate units.
200 gas per marine?
Good luck with that.
Still will be more cost effective than stalkers.
If your stalkers are being that cost ineffective then it's not a problem with the unit.
You could just copy an SCV and THEN build your own Marines from a Barracks xD
The tempest is built to counter a mass unit that probably won't be around in large numbers at that point in the game. Teching all the way to a capital ship just to counter mutas is completely absurd. It doesn't seem to have much use outside of defending your base from one unit in the game.
The replicant is even worse. I want more awesome protoss units, not units from other races that might help my forces. If I wanted to have siege tanks, I would be terran. Its price is equally ridiculous when copying other units of less value. I'd also rather have colossi coming out of my robo facility.
I've always wanted a good harassing unit for the protoss, but the oracle is not at all what I wanted. Having the possibility of denying mining time is all well and good, but all it does is cause a slight hiccup instead of having a lasting effect on their economy. The single-target version of the stasis field is cute though.
The nexus' new abilities are interesting. It really shakes up the energy usage instead of always just increasing production speed. That being said, chrono boosts are incredibly useful. Learning to prioritize the abilities will be fun.
On October 23 2011 06:20 Authweight wrote: I'm a little confused by the terran changes. The changes are really cool, but don't seem like they fit in with how the race works. The shredder is another map control unit for a race with already amazing map control. And the battle hellion is a very cool idea, but hellions are already a damn good unit. Why do they need to be made even better?
Hellions are very lackluster as an actual combat unit, they're great for harassment though.
This just makes the hellion better in front on engagements which helps to make Pure Mech more viable against the other races besides just TvT.
And with the Thor being replaced with the Warhound, Mech needs a good front line unit to soak up damage for the Siege Tanks.
A shredder in a mineral line = every single worker gets fried. The new protoss harass unit vs a mineral line = some cute bubble around the mineral patches.
No but seriously I think that the terran and zerg units are maybe a bit better but the Nexus recall and arc shield seem pretty cool.
Poll: Do you think these T units fill the problems of the race as a whole?
i am curious as to what problems the terran race currently has
Erm, well, hellions are killable, thors are too expensive and big and zergling runbys can occur. SO LETS ELIMINATE ALL 3. Seriously Blizzard, THINK before you make shit.
On October 23 2011 06:08 Geovu wrote: Who else is going to try to go mass marine as Protoss as soon as the expansion comes out?
Vyper looks a bit silly, all the Terran units walk on 2 legs now, and Carriers ()and MofoShips got removed, but I'm still looking forward to having real Stargate units.
200 gas per marine?
Good luck with that.
Still will be more cost effective than stalkers.
If your stalkers are being that cost ineffective then it's not a problem with the unit.
You could just copy an SCV and THEN build your own Marines from a Barracks xD
Yea I don't see the Replicant being able to replicate workers for very long.
The only reason it was possible in SC1 and with Neural Parasite was because it was and is extremely difficult to do. The way the replicant works, it can replicate any unit that you have vision of, which means all you have to do is scout an expansion with harvesting workers and you can create any unit you want from any of the three races.
In SC1 you had to successfully nab an SCV with a Dark Archon and escort it back to safety to build, with Neural Parasite it's even more difficult to do.
The Replicant makes it too easy to make Protoss the "I can make anything I want" race. I don't see that happening.
The Replicator - I'm skeptical that once they have finished balancing this unit it will no longer have any utility. The only real place I see for this unit is an expensive end game unit that is worth it because you can instantly switch your composition between Immortals and Void Rays based on whether the enemy has antiair. Also when I'm playing Toss I don't want to use the other races units.
The Oracle - This could be okay with the right balancing but it needs to get a lot better. When Toss complains that we don't have harass what we really mean is we want a unit that is like cloaked banshees, mutas or marauder drops. That is something that if not immediately correctly responded too will simply end the game. I want the other races to fear our harass not have it just be a slight annoyance like phoenixs or sentry drops.
The Tempest - It's okay just boring. Flying Toss Thor.
The viper just seems overpowered with that pull. It will nullify collosus entirely unless the range is reduced (when watching the video) or maybe if the energy cost is ridiculous... but even then waiting a bit to pull collosus on top of roaches seems worth it in a big battle. All around it just seems like a very solid unit that will add to many strategies, and it is the one unit added that I feel is very solid (assuming it will be balanced of course).
The swarm host seems interesting I suppose. I don't know the details of how it will work, but I suppose it will play a similar role as the lurker, but it seems like it will be move overwhelming when it is already burrowed and the terran has to fight through a bunch of cannon fodder before it can do any real damage, and at the same time quite weak when it comes to making an attack with them. It is hard to judge though, because I don't know how many mini units they can spawn before they stop, and what the aggro radius is on them, both of which are obviously huge factors before even getting in the things like the damage they do.
The protoss units are the most disappointing to me. The oracle plays a very similar role to the current overseer, in that it is used for scouting the opponent, and impairing their macro, but they previously stated that the overseer is not a good unit. I don't know why they decided to include such an underwhelming unit.
The replicator I'm kind of 50/50 on. I think it could add some interesting strategy, but it will be tricky to balance. My guess is that they will make sure it isn't too powerful, and we will see it on occasion, though replicating cloaked banshees does seem powerful, so perhaps it won't be too weak. I think it can actually make for some interesting strategies to be honest.
The Tempest seems like a much needed replacement for the phoenix. In other words, I think they should have added a corsair like unit (cheaper cost, can be massed) and leave the carrier in so the protoss air force has some decent air to ground for lighter/smaller units. The void ray, and the Tempest's void ray like attack does not seem impressive for the protoss air force when it comes to attacking ground.
The Terran units seemed quite underwhelming to me. The hellion transformation should be nice for making terran mech more impressive, and the warhound will definitely be a solid replacement for the thor, but I wasn't wowed by either of them. I think the warhound will be interesting when it comes to balancing unit compositions. It can fulfill some good roles, but it doesn't seem that it will be essential in any of them as it kind of plays the role of a maurader on the ground, and a marine for air (again... kind of).
A state the hellion can morph into in order to change it's functionality. While the current hellion too fragile to be used in the lategame, they wanted to add a unit that could add more diversity to the mech-path of terrans, as well as dealing with the late game chargelot problem. So basically.. it's an end-game fighter version of the hellion.
This is an entirely new unit. While they didn't want to add another unit to the Terran unit arsenal, they did something entirely different. This unit works alone, and alone only. It's basically a unit that does nothing while un-deployed, and has a fairly short deploy-timer. Once it's deployed it sends out pulses of energy which deals damage to all enemy units in a radius of something which i think looked like 7 or 8 (you'll have to see for yourself). If you have a friendly unit inside the shredders radius, it will de-activate, and not deal damage. So this unit is designed to gain map control, as well as defending chokes etc.
A replacement for the Thor's current role in the game. While they won't remove the Thor entirely from the game, they will make it the new "casual über-unit", like the mothership is today. And yes - they are removing the mothership. The warhound is an anti-air unit, with an anti-mech ground attack, designed to wipe out siegetanks and protoss-armies. The warhound is pretty much just a smaller and faster version of the thor. Nothing much else to say.
New full zerg spellcaster. Replaces the overseer. Have three abilities. The first one is to grant another unit detection permanently (thus replacing overseer). The second one is "blinding cloud", what it does is prevents units inside the cloud to shoot out of it. The main purpose of the Viper unit is to break chokepoints, and this is it's "main ability". The third spell is <don't have a name>. What it does is either pull a unit towards the Viper, or pushes it away (i think). Sort of like death grip and life grip in wow, if anyone catched that reference. Designed to snipe expensive units such as colossus, siegetank, immortal etc.
Zerg artillery unit. It's sort of like a mix between a burrowed broodlord and a lurker. The intention of the unit is to give zerg a unit that gives map control, as well as being able to set the enemy base at "siege". It does nothing while unburrowed, and it's attack only works while burrowed.
A new unit that's being built in the Robotics Facility. It's (only) ability is to duplicate a unit that's currently visible on the map. What's interesting to note about this unit is that if you replicate i.e. a banshee, and the terran player doesn't have cloak researched - your replication will have cloak. In other words; whenever you replicate a unit, you'll have all the available upgrades for that unit. Tanks will have siegemode, ravens will have seeker missile etc. It costs 200/200 and 4 supply, so if you replicate a marine, you'll use 4 supply to hold a 1 supply unit. You can indeed replicate workers and build structures with the new worker.
This is the new protoss harass unit. It's a flying units. I'm not certain of which building it's being produced in. It's very "worker friendly", and can't deal damage to workers. It's designed to harass the enemy economy. It has three abilities (as far as I know), the first one is a mineral-block, that puts a shield around enemy mineral-fields, preventing them to be mined until the spell expire, or until the shields are destroyed. The second ability is somewhat similar to what we've seen Zeratul have in the WoL campaign. You can place a "force field" around an enemy building to disable it. I don't know if this will work on production buildings yet, but you can neutralize buildings such as the spine and sporecrawler. The third ability is to see what's being produced in a building.
This is the new "capital ship" for Protoss. It's a tier 3 air unit, that's going to replace Carrier. This unit is a powerful aoe anti-air unit, and does + damage to light units (mutalisk). It also have a fairly powerful ground attack, and is therefore a pretty all-around tier 3 air unit, with lots of utility.
Right, so im a zerg play and I just cant see how this is fair on Protoss. Zerg gets lurkers and defilers, Terran is already powerful enough but now they have a raidiation cooker. Whereas protoss get a flying
Kinda makes you wonder if Shredder drops from terran would be cheaper and prevent more mining time... possibly even get some kills in the process... than the oracle
Shredders will solve that mobility issue mech Terrans have. MMA stomped MVP last night abusing bio mobility. With 4-5 shredders in the back MVP woulda def easy.
I am not sure why people think the two new units fill the holes of the Zerg. Maybe the Viper but Swarm Host felt underwhelming. I gotta think Infested Terrans are out and the infestor needs to be reworked now. Probably take out dps from fungal growth. Make it a gradual slow to snare.
Protoss units seem to be most radical. And everyone shits on them. I guess cause the replicator feels more zergish in nature. The protoss, the most highly advanced race, has to copy other races units. Haha. Still looks fun to use though. Oracle is okay. Tempest can be ok, if they add an interesting mechanic to it. Like charge the shots out of combat?
WarHound looks like an over-sized SCV. Not kidding. That's what I thought when I saw them in the trailer. "SCV's can fight now?" Everything else is okay. Hope the Thor gets built by an SCV again.
Hahaha the protoss poll is funny. I need gameplay to draw conclusions. Viper pulling stuff is very silly, they should remove it simply for appearing silly.
I like the new Zerg and terran changes. Terran is the most finished and well designed race in WoL. The Shredder adds some nice tactical elements to the race, and the size of the Thor makes it look cool, but clunky.... I like that it is replaced with the warhound.
The Zerg changes are very nice. It strengthens the race were it used to be weak. The Viper really gives zerg some flare i feel it lacked in sc2 compared to BW. The swarmhost is also nice, it can put general pressure on a turtling P or T that is just waiting to max out. The ultralisk charge actually makes the good... the Broodlord is so slow, so the new and very mobile ultra will be a nice option. Hydralisk speed upgrade... damn its been needed for ages.
When it comes to Protoss I am not so sure. The Tempest is prolly the best new unit. It seems extremely powerful against clumped air, adding 1-2 with your colossi could be very potent. I cant really make up my mind about the oracle and replicator. They might end up as brilliant units, but they are so different and weird compared to other units, so I think we will just have to wait and see how they operate. But the biggest changes when it comes to protoss are the Nexus spells. The mass recall ability is the biggest change by far of all the changes in HotS... I refuse to believe it will survive through beta. Costing 75 energy it will be usable more than once a minute midgame, and twice a minute lategame (depending on bases ofcourse). This will make the protoss race the most mobile by far, and nearly unharassable. But if they add some global cooldown on all nexi I could see it be somewhat balanced. The defensive structure spell sounds cool, and can add alot of versatility to the race... but sadly it will probably be ubalanced as a cheese tool.
i really dislike the swarmhost, either the locusts spawn to slow or the entire idea is wrong(somewhat speedy summons that hold longer than 5 sec so you could micro them), you dont get any zoning like the lurker did because hellions will outrun the swarmhost and i think shredder>swarmhost too. as for the ultralisk burrow charge: just make them run over zerglings -> problem solved without an upgrade which seems suspicious to balance for me. i imagine the ultras as burrow forcefield with splash damage. protoss air is like many stated, phoenix should be tempest like and carrier carrierlike, make airtoss viable and review robo tech as for terran im just disappointed, but they looked overall somewhat good in wol so why change much
1) I like the terran units; I hope they make my pvts more interesting than just bio and the delicate dance of viking\colossus / emp\feedback; mess up a little? Too bad you lose. My favorite is probably the warhound because I miss goliaths. I'm a little afraid the shredder might make terran even more mistake friendly.
2) I love the zerg units as well. The swarm host seems cool, although the broodlings will need to be formidable to make it seem comparable to a lurker. I also like the viper, but I think their cloud ability is the most worrisome; we'll have to wait and see how it effects all aspects of the game.
3) On a positive note, I like the tempest by merit of hating mutalisks. The replicator seems both expensive and situational; I can't see someone working them into their general game plan, other than in a reactionary role. The oracle seems expensive and bad. It's already a huge gamble to go for phoenix oriented play and hoping to survive certain timings, and the phoenix CAN help in battle. Oracles are more expensive than phoenix, and are useless in battle. Because of how niche these units are, and how specific the instances in which they're useful are, toss players probably won't work these into their overarching game plan, and stick to the same tired old WoL tactics.
On the plus side, I love the new recall, especially for pvz- seems really reasonable to do some non-all-in early pressure w/o the fear of losing everything (and the game) now.
I just remembered, Dustin Browder was saying how they didn't want to add more units that would contribute to the deathball, but then they kept the collosus in the game, and added a replacement to the carrier (The Tempest) which will be significantly better in death balls. Now when units like vikings and corruptors are sent out against collosi, Tempest's will be included.... *sigh*
The Tempest really confuses me, what is Blizzard thinking? A muta ball counter that is so far down the stargate tech tree, probably takes 60s+ to build, and can get sniped by a group of 10 or so corruptors if its anti-light attack is too good, or by the muta ball itself if its underpowered, is not something helpful to protoss. Toss needs something easy to get and highly mobile, like blink stalkers, to take out mutas.
To be honest, I think blizz messed up with the pheonix. They failed to consider that muta splash makes large air engagements favor the mutas a lot more. That spash was the reason ZvZ always got +1 air armor first when fighting mutas with mutas in SC:BW. It is currently wrecking units without splash damage in the air, vikings and pheonix unsupported by rines or stalkers are losing to a unit they should be able to deal with.
Nexus recall is great, and can be useful in defending far away expos, but if the units coming out of it are unable to move for a time, will this just lead to the attackers surrounding and killing the recall quickly?
I have a lot of questions about the new protoss stuff, it does not seem like it will help as much as its supposed to. And giving zerg a new answer to the colossus isn't helping either.
My last comment, giving terran a unit designed to hold unoccupied territory really makes mech intimidating because the only counter for the opponent is to take advantage of the immobility of mech, give terran an answer to counterattacks?
Zerg already was the best designed race in WoL from a playing, spectating and esport perspective, and they now receive more well designed units. Protoss in WoL was a travesty in game design that made for boring play, boring spectating and overall not suited for esport, and they recieve more lackluster units that doesn't help breaking up the infamous death ball, aka the esport killer.
I was looking forward to read about the new Protoss units since they were the race that really needed something new. Replicant can be interesting though, but what they really should have done: a total overhaul of P and remove Colossus and Sentry. I guess Blizzard is aware of this but I guess it would be close to impossible to balance the game in years if they removed them... I notice Blizzard took a shortcut by adding units that make P think twice of building a Colossus, like the <- <- A Scorpion move.
On October 23 2011 06:36 arb wrote: I dunno if its been asked, but does this mean Terran atm atleast can finally mech TvP?
Honestly, I think they can. With beefy hellions that can actually tank damage and kill chargelots, tanks and some warhounds support, mech should be really good, maybe even better than bio. Let's not forget that with the Shredder they can slow push by placing some in the front, not too far away but maybe close to the first tank so it can cover it (if possible). You can also shut down counter attack paths with Shredders.
On October 23 2011 06:33 Ravnemesteren wrote: I li. The defensive structure spell sounds cool, and can add alot of versatility to the race... but sadly it will probably be ubalanced as a cheese tool.
It requires gateway to cast.
Also I feel the new porotss units will be trash and terran will be op with all its new stuff. Seriously why do they need an anti mech unit(warhound does extra vs mech)?
One thing that people seem to be overlooking is that the Tempest, while it costs 300/300, counters MASS AIR, NOT JUST MUTALISKS according to David Kim.
Apparently, it does a good job against corruptors too. Vikings might be tricky with their range, however.
What does this mean? Well, ignoring all the other new units, a strategy like Hongun's in MLG might be more plausable. He went phoenix/VR and harassed and eventually got a few carriers and a mothership.
But the downfall of Protoss air against Zerg in WOL is that all P air units lose to a corruptor switch. This tempest might be a way of protecting your phoenix/VRs from mass corruptor (specifically) as you build up a ball of phoenix/VR from harassing. Add zealots/stalkers on the ground.
And add in the oracle (which Im very skeptical about for a number of reasons) and you might be able to make air quite viable against Z.
Still worried about the seemingly limited role and huge cost though.
Also, anyone considered putting a shredder in their own mineral line? O.o
It will be passive when you're mining, but as soon as they drop, you run your workers away and as the enemy gives chase, your shredder activates and starts shredding them. Not a replacement for drop defense/ turrets, but it could add extra DPS to drop defense. And it would prevent a warp prism from sitting above your mineral line warping in zealots.
I think that the Carrier would have been used a lot more in HotS. With more terrans going mech due to the warhound, the carrier would probably seen use as a counter to the mech style.
The Warhound looks like a siege-breaker and that would be the best thing for TvT ever. I HATE this damn siege-line vs siege-line 60min TvTs. I hope its like that. I overall like all the Units and hope the Beta is coming soon.
On October 23 2011 06:44 Knee_of_Justice wrote: One thing that people seem to be overlooking is that the Tempest, while it costs 300/300, counters MASS AIR, NOT JUST MUTALISKS according to David Kim.
Apparently, it does a good job against corruptors too. Vikings might be tricky with their range, however.
What does this mean? Well, ignoring all the other new units, a strategy like Hongun's in MLG might be more plausable. He went phoenix/VR and harassed and eventually got a few carriers and a mothership.
But the downfall of Protoss air against Zerg in WOL is that all P air units lose to a corruptor switch. This tempest might be a way of protecting your phoenix/VRs from mass corruptor (specifically) as you build up a ball of phoenix/VR from harassing. Add zealots/stalkers on the ground.
And add in the oracle (which Im very skeptical about for a number of reasons) and you might be able to make air quite viable against Z.
Still worried about the seemingly limited role and huge cost though.
Also, anyone considered putting a shredder in their own mineral line? O.o
It will be passive when you're mining, but as soon as they drop, you run your workers away and as the enemy gives chase, your shredder activates and starts shredding them. Not a replacement for drop defense/ turrets, but it could add extra DPS to drop defense. And it would prevent a warp prism from sitting above your mineral line warping in zealots.
Just a random thought I havent seen yet.
It's not cloaked when "burrowed", the other play will just see it, pick it up and run away.
I think the replicant is an absolutely ridiculous unit. I would be seriously doubtful that it makes it through the beta, at least with its current mechanics. oracle seems useless. Zerg units seem really good by comparison, and terran units are pretty underwhelming. Seems like they were out of ideas.
At first glance I that all the units should be good except maybe the replicant and the oracle. I have high hopes for all of the other units, especially the new terran units. Maybe it will make mech tvp the standard. I think that would make the match up much more fun to observe/play because it will add an additional style to the mu.
Shredder seems ok but needs to only hit ground. The Replicant needs limits. (like no copying workers) Protoss has lots of early game problems not being addressed. All the new units are mid-game at earliest.
The swarm host doesn't fix the problem of agression in ZvZ.
The viper will make ZvZ weird because lategame fungals and viper clouds can disable any ranged army, but zerglings are still pretty useless because of banelings and fungal.
I really can't get over how strange the matchup will be.
I imagine viper + spinecrawler turtle will become standard on maps with a chokepoint for spines.
The yoink ability for the viper will make broodlords die to hydralisks. Infestors too.
The swarm host will be pretty much useless because having swarm hosts means giving up map control because the rest of one's army would be lacking, so lings and roaches can just go up and snipe them.
However, I'm trying to imagine what the effect of 10 swarm hosts would be on the lategame. Will they be viable in the late game army? Will we have 30 swarm hosts vs 30 swarm hosts epic battles?
The early game should go unchanged, but the lategame will be so random that the solid players will want to win by harassing constantly and going for a better economy.
ZxT/P
I'm not going to go to much into the viper because they are going to be pretty imba.
The swarm host will be interesting because Zergs will finally be able to do a bisu esque build where we try to kill observers and then rape everything with proxy swarm hosts.
Overall, zerg is going to have so many variables in it's play that a million style will be birthed and skill will be very important.
Oh, and just for the record, I hate the replicant. Every race should have its own units, its own style. I am NOT fine with giving race all of the other units, even for a heavy cost. It just doesn't fit SC.
For Zerg, they got it almost perfect. Modify the swarm host a teency bit (throughout beta testing) to make it better defensively, rather than exclusively offensively, and I'll be super happy. With Terran, I'm also happy. Right now, the shredder looks OP as a mofo, but I'm sure that will change. The battle hellion is also a nice improvement, I think well done transformer units are really cool. The warhound looks super stupid. But the idea of massable anti air splash is useful for Mech, so it fulfils a useful role. As for Protoss. The Tempest looks cool, but it solves a problem Protoss didn't have, mass muta. Overall though, the tempest looks okay. The other 2 units though, just look gimmicky, pointless and ridiculous, I hope they go soon. Overall though, I'm really pleased. Terran and Zerg both look like a lot of thought has gone into them. It's just Protoss who are missing out.
On October 23 2011 06:46 dgdsg wrote: The Warhound looks like a siege-breaker and that would be the best thing for TvT ever. I HATE this damn siege-line vs siege-line 60min TvTs. I hope its like that. I overall like all the Units and hope the Beta is coming soon.
Yeah man, being able to a-move into a Siege line is definitely what SC2 needs more of!
On October 23 2011 06:39 HowardRoark wrote: Zerg already was the best designed race in WoL from a playing, spectating and esport perspective, and they now receive more well designed units. Protoss in WoL was a travesty in game design that made for boring play, boring spectating and overall not suited for esport, and they recieve more lackluster units that doesn't help breaking up the infamous death ball, aka the esport killer.
I was looking forward to read about the new Protoss units since they were the race that really needed something new. Replicant can be interesting though, but what they really should have done: a total overhaul of P and remove Colossus and Sentry. I guess Blizzard is aware of this but I guess it would be close to impossible to balance the game in years if they removed them... I notice Blizzard took a shortcut by adding units that make P think twice of building a Colossus, like the <- <- A Scorpion move.
The only major issue I have with units conceptually (without seeing / hearing proper playtest results) is the replicant. It just feels like Blizzard actually don't get Protoss, so figure that they should give them another high gas gimmick unit that pros will use basically like a manner nexus. Unless you can replicate a scv and build terran units, the thing is useless =P
Sort of have a problem with the "air harass" unit. I'd rather use phoenix....
And yeah the tempest complaints might be valid also...I'd rather blink stalkers. 5 archons would look just as good in that video as the 5 tempests...
I like the terran and zerg changes though. Warhound is a bit ugly, and swarm host isn't a lurker, but they still both conceptually fit the race's goal.
As usual, what Protoss got for this game (or tentatively got) is really hard to balance. Every little change will make those units/spells completely overpowered or completely useless. "Recall" on Nexus for example, is a WTF move to me. Are we getting a free way to harass with our full army? Seriously? When all other races complain about it, it will be nerfed to oblivion, obviously (like you can only recall 2 units or something). "Arc shield" will be nerfed to prevent early cheese, and then nerfed again when people figure out that they can nexus first and defend a 6pool/bunker rush with 25 energy spent on a pylon (-_-). Next we have the replicant. What kind of idea is that? Everyone knows that Protoss units are crap, so let's make the other races' units for twice the price, is that it? At a high cost, it cannot be abused that much as it's very inefficient. At a low cost, it's way too powerful. Oracle is a cool idea, but I can see it becoming overpowered: can you lockdown indefinitely the tech of your opponent? Can you nullify his bunkers and just old school 6gate him? Can you lockdown his roach warren and spawning pool as you move out and then he can't react and make units? So it will be nerfed, and all of the above will become impossible, and the unit will lose its depth and its usefulness. The Tempest, you can't really argue against, it's a fleat beacon unit, so it won't be made (:D). More serisouly though, it will be used rarely, not that it changes our metagame that much.
I would have preferred more straight up units as Terran got, something that adds potential to protoss and at the same time are easy to balance (keeping them somewhat useful but not making them overpowered). As for Zerg units, you can really see that what they got will enrich their gameplay greatly. At least everyone (see poll) agrees that Protoss additions are a bit disappointing...
Edit: One more thing, it looks like Blizzard is a bit lost about what to add to Protoss to make the race interesting/viable. I mean, they could have had ONE unit that lets everyone be like "SEE? THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT BLIZZARD OMG SO COOL". But instead Protoss players are, at best, more like "Yeah...I guess...it might work?? Maybe it needs tweaking, I don't know..."? Basically, it's hard to trust them with first impressions like that. And then they remind us that they were some cool badass looking protoss templar units that were not added in WoL for some reason, and they're like "Well, let's add an expensive Pokemon kinda robot that can change into a siege tank or an infestor, that should do it...*Browder's voice* right? Right?"
I like the terran units. Seems like mech is really going to be viable now. I dont really like the toss units. Tempest seems ok, but the others just seem pointless. The zerg units are ok. I like the ultra changes and the viper looks cool. The swarm host looks like it wont solve anything. Its a ground broodlord. They need lurkers.
I don't know, it's too early to tell, IMO, as testing has to be done before the definitive HOTS multiplayer is released. That said, I am very underwhelmed by the new Protoss units. They seem very un Protoss like (with the exception of the Tempest - although I will miss carriers) and I have to wonder if anyone in Blizzard actually plays Protoss and loves the race. I'll wait and see for HOTS but it looks to me like the game is moving in a direction I will not like - so if it is as I think it might be, then HOTS might be gg from SC for me.
I feel like protoss just isnt being given the right design and direction that it should be. What that should be I don't know, but this just doesnt feel right. Zerg had some similar issues, but I feel they are starting to get there with their ideas. Terran feels like it is again getting too much attention, and that their problems are being fixed the right way, but the other races are not. This is going to be tough for blizzard and for the community I feel.
I like every unit except the Oracle and (ESPECIALLY) the Replicant which I feel is the most lazy unit idea of all time.
The Warhound, I think, is a good idea for its mech killing ability and anti-air potential which, coupled with the space-controlling Shredder, should give Mech the viability it deeply desires in TvP. It just LOOKS absolutely terrible aesthetically. I don't want to use the unit just because of how clunky and awkward it looks.
Everything else I like. I'm not entirely sure if I think the battle hellion was the best way to change the hellion, but it definitely works, so I'm not going to complain.
really maybe on terran warhound and fixing terran overall. i can see though that they are trying. the other races problems will be somewhat handled after much battlefield experimentation.
i think they should let the community help in all stages by posting a custom map or two that are converted to HotS a la SC2BW, etc. it could be "open alpha" if you already own the game.
The new Terran units look pretty well thought out, though it seems like they're crunching them into a little mech box. I suppose that's just because bio is fairly robust as a whole.
Zerg...well, at least the Viper is kinda neat. I like the plague spell and the pull. Swarm...ugh. I was so excited that it looked like a morphed roach, that it'd function the same as a lurker (upgraded T1 unit in T2). For it to be effective at all they would greatly have to increase the spawn rate of the broodlings.
I really don't know what to say about Protoss. The Tempest functions well in one area, dealing with mass Mutalisk. I really like the Stasis type effect for the Oracle, but I would much rather it kill workers than a luke-warm lock down on minerals that probably won't be nearly as effective in practice. As for the Replicant? Give us unique units that mesh well with a general design philosophy for the race. "Stealing" units from the other race seems lazy and poorly designed.
As an idea the Replicant sounds cool and whatnot. But when i thought about it i realized it was terrible. I don't think it will make to release. I wanted a new protoss unit. If i wanted to make siege tanks or infestors with the replicant i would just play zerg or terran. Just comes off as a lazy unit to me. give me a protoss unit!
I figured out protoss was meant to be for lower leagues or let's say it's for lower level players, therefore making them shine in those specific area's said above but starts getting weaker the higher the skill cap goes on. Anyway, seeing how blizzard were approaching or explaining the reasoning behind the new protoss units clearly reminded me what I ve just stated above. Which is offcourse pure theory and may be totally wrong.
-Oracle: I think it has potential, but its harassment skill isn't nearly powerful or important enough. I'd scratch that and do something else. The building disabling skill sounds good, it has tons of uses.
-Warhound: Graphics are terrible, god the model is bad.
-Swarm host: This unit is very strange to me, imo, it's the less zergy of all zerg units. Zerg isn't supposed to be slow and methodical, it's supposed to swarm you and rape terran wives and kill their children. And gameplay wise, it's strange too, and it might require some balancing, considering locusts are pretty much glorified zerglings.
About other things: I don't like how Blizzard refuse to deal with gateway units being so terrible to support warpgates. I like the tempest but I don't know about removing the Carrier, it could have been saved with some changes. Bane burrow movement and ultra burrow charge are good, it will force terran to carry mobile detection and pay more attention to mineral lines, and it might make the ultra worthwhile. I also like the replicant, I think it doesn't solve protoss' problems, but it's an extremely interesting unit.
Finally, the design team seems really uninspired imo. Browder is just... a bit angering, and Kim just looks tired and bored. I don't know, something's off, and their design decisions don't seem as good. We'll have to wait and see.
The replicant effect can be implemented into the game as an ability for DT* or Sentry, to make DT* less one-dimensional and sentrys more usefull late game.
I don't like the set up of this poll. I think that in order to collect solid, empirical evidence, the polls should ask subjects to rate each new unit from something like 1-5.
Why couldn't they make the Carrier what the Tempest is now?
Make interceptors AA with splash, hell even make them invulnerable if that is what is necessary.. And give the actual Carrier a simple GtA attack.
Protoss doesn't even feel like Protoss anymore, they feel like the War of the Worlds aliens (the shitty tom cruise one), they ought to feel more like Predators from AvP
the role and ability of the replicant is so un-sc'ish, its an embarrasement of a unit and i seriously feel bad for the person who came up with the concept behind this piece of shit
it goes against everything that starcraft is about, doesnt fit with the game
If they want to fix protoss as a whole they should consider moving warpgates to tier 3. The biggest fundamental problem for the race is still PvP. As long as warpgates come from the core, gateway units will be weak, and pvp will only be interesting on maps with small ramps. The current warpgate accessibility limits map creativity and creates stale gameplay.
On October 23 2011 07:31 TT1 wrote: the role and ability of the replicant is so un-sc'ish, its an embarrasement of a unit and i seriously feel bad for the person who came up with the concept for this piece of shit
Probably someone who thought Hallucinations were UP
On October 23 2011 05:50 KingRajesh wrote: All of the units, INCLUDING THE ORACLE, add utility.
I'm most excited for the zerg units, because I play Zerg. Swarm Hosts, from what I saw in Dustin Browder's videos, fire too slow. They need to fire at broodlord speeds.
The Viper is going to be awesome. Vipers pull in the colossus, infestor's NP them, GG.
I agree with the fire rate, and the Viper! it is like the defiler from SC1, but it can fly! this will be zergs no #1 unit from now on, bye bye infestor, have fun at no#2!
The "cutting edge tech" Warhound looks like an early prototype for the Goliath, based on a SCV. Great job unit design department.
What made you think it was cutting edge tech? Raynor said in the campaign they need new tech, but I'm not sure if you noticed the Raiders part of their name. They don't have factory upon factory to build new units, that's why they have the warhound. It's made of spare parts and IMO it looks awesome.
The protoss capital ship is good at fighting mutas.... The oracle warps out buildings, which is ok, but locking mineral patches and dealing absolutely no damage is just absurd. Replicant is also a terrible idea. We are already fighting against infestors/ghosts and mass mutas, why does Blizzard think we need specific units to deal with super specific scenarios?
Warhound is just ugly and as other people have said just bring the Goliath back. It's the same thing. Also the swarm host is another lazy design with an attack similar to that of broodlords. I can only imagine a 200/200 battle vs zerg with zerglings/broodlords and hosts. It will be a massive lagfest. Just bring back the lurker and admit your design team isn't what it used to be.
I am astonished Terran polls aren't well over 50% in the no direction. The question about filling holes from the Terran persepctive is a bit odd because admittedly Terran has a comp to deal with pretty much any realistic (I wasn't already losing when it showed up at my base) comp. I guess they aren't removing any units so who cares, unless they nerf marines (which is possible) they will shit all over this new goliath for dealing with mutas.
I also find their new plan for the Thor to be more than a little stupid, even with it's great spells and the ability to cloak, the 1 per army supership idea was deemed a failure and they are removing mothership from the game, only to try to make Thor fill the same archtype?
Sometimes I wonder if there was a sc2 broodwar matchmaking system + ladder if it would be more popular than the WoL one, it certianly seems like thats what people are asking for, and I'm not inclined to argue.
On October 23 2011 05:52 Horse...falcon wrote: Swarm host's entire job seems to be providing cannon fodder for other units to do damage to entrenched positions. I think zerglings will be cheaper/more mobile replacements for small groups of enemies and brood lords are much better for large groups. We'll have to see how effective it is at its job but judging from the video, 9 swarm hosts took awhile to take down 1.5 bunkers.
Yeah, though the swarm hosts were stupidly placed. had they been in an arc, the locus would have taken less splash, and been more effective.
Also you could do cool things like burrow only a couple at a time so you get a steadier stream of locus.
The "cutting edge tech" Warhound looks like an early prototype for the Goliath, based on a SCV. Great job unit design department.
What made you think it was cutting edge tech? Raynor said in the campaign they need new tech, but I'm not sure if you noticed the Raiders part of their name. They don't have factory upon factory to build new units, that's why they have the warhound. It's made of spare parts and IMO it looks awesome.
And who said that Raynor's Raiders did the blueprints? But ok. Still it's just a SCG(oliath) 0.5.
Sward host and Oracle seem like the only units which are would be balanced and should be put into the game. The Terran units are interesting but other than the shredder they don't fit into any role which isn't already being filled, the shredder is a cool idea but the amount of Zerglings which get killed by two of them in the trailer just isn't reasonable.
The Viper having the "grabbing" ability as well as the gas cloud which reduces range to 1 will make it such a versatile unit. No two base Colossus build will be safe against Vipers, assuming they are a Lair tech unit rather than Hive tech (greater spire). Late-game when zergs have Vipers and Infestors is going to be incredibly strong, the combination of fungal growth with the AOE range reduction will be almost unstoppable.
Replicant's are an interesting idea and i don't think anyone can really be sure how good or useful they will be until they've played a lot of games with them and experimented with a lot of strategy. Personally i think they're a joke of a unit, what are you supposed to replicate. If they can't replicate massive units that leaves you with a very limited set of units that are worth replicating. In PvT it could be worth medivacs depending on the phase of the game. PvZ infestors are worth stealing, especially if you have storm, swarm hosts and vipers would be good to replicate assuming they aren't massive units. PvP immortals, templar and voidrays are the only non-massive units which you could argue are worth stealing but templar are rare, immortals/voidrays aren't cost effective for the 200/200 cost.
The Tempest is probably the worst addition, it's and incredibly situational unit because it's air to ground is a weak single target attack. It's only use is to kill large amounts of air units, which in protoss matchups is basically going to be mutalisks and vikings. In PvT you could argue that a Colossus Tempest death ball would be incredibly strong and you would be right, however Vikings will still be able to kite Tempests and once split it would be a cost efficient fight for terran. As far as mutalisks go you would have to respond immediately to the mutalisks by throwing down the stargate and fleet beacon, when the zerg flies in with his first 8-10 mutalisks he will see what you're doing and immediately switch tech leaving you with useless tech and massively expensive units which have no use.
The "cutting edge tech" Warhound looks like an early prototype for the Goliath, based on a SCV. Great job unit design department.
What made you think it was cutting edge tech? Raynor said in the campaign they need new tech, but I'm not sure if you noticed the Raiders part of their name. They don't have factory upon factory to build new units, that's why they have the warhound. It's made of spare parts and IMO it looks awesome.
And who said that Raynor's Raiders did the blueprints? But ok. Still it's just a SCG(oliath) 0.5.
It's kind of obvious. Starcraft II's story itself is mainly about Raynor and Kerrigan. I get the feeling he's the guy who came up with the unit (in terms of game story)
I'm happy with the new Terran units 'case they appear to (hopefully) make mech more viable, so Terran play might start to resemble Brood War style again, though I'm not sure if even those new Mech units can stop the Marauder.
Zerg swarm host is just a weak version of the lurker. The clip where the (quite large pack) hosts kill of the bunkers is also abit meh. terran can probably kill most of those locusts before they arrive. Ofcourse there is going to be a lot of balancing done, but atm I don't like it too much
Also : does the swarm host spawn every now and then, or can you make it spawn on command? cuz if it spawns now and then, the opponent knows where they are located, or they can just run past inbetween spawns.
All subject to change ofc, and I hope it's going to change a bit more to a 'lurker / banetrap'-unit than a siege unit.
The Tempest is doing well in the poll but I don't like it.
The problem with mass muta isn't that protoss don't have anything to fight mutalisks with. The problem is that mutalisks are too mobile and the zerg player will never engage unless he wants to. A zerg player can keep the protoss contained while he is expanding all over the map and teching to something else. The Tempest will not change this at all. By the time you have the Tempest, you are probably already very far behind, the zerg is on 5 bases and getting roaches/infestors, and doesn't care about your Tempests.
Protoss need new units to fight. Not stupid replicant with 200/200 cost just to copy non-massive units. What am I gonna do? Copy banelings to burrow and kill his own Zerglings ? Oracle is useless, how about some better unit that could actually kill the workers, not just blocking the damn mineral. What is Protoss going to do in the real fight with 2 of them are useless?
On October 23 2011 06:08 Geovu wrote: Who else is going to try to go mass marine as Protoss as soon as the expansion comes out?
Vyper looks a bit silly, all the Terran units walk on 2 legs now, and Carriers ()and MofoShips got removed, but I'm still looking forward to having real Stargate units.
A state the hellion can morph into in order to change it's functionality. While the current hellion too fragile to be used in the lategame, they wanted to add a unit that could add more diversity to the mech-path of terrans, as well as dealing with the late game chargelot problem. So basically.. it's an end-game fighter version of the hellion.
This is an entirely new unit. While they didn't want to add another unit to the Terran unit arsenal, they did something entirely different. This unit works alone, and alone only. It's basically a unit that does nothing while un-deployed, and has a fairly short deploy-timer. Once it's deployed it sends out pulses of energy which deals damage to all enemy units in a radius of something which i think looked like 7 or 8 (you'll have to see for yourself). If you have a friendly unit inside the shredders radius, it will de-activate, and not deal damage. So this unit is designed to gain map control, as well as defending chokes etc.
A replacement for the Thor's current role in the game. While they won't remove the Thor entirely from the game, they will make it the new "casual über-unit", like the mothership is today. And yes - they are removing the mothership. The warhound is an anti-air unit, with an anti-mech ground attack, designed to wipe out siegetanks and protoss-armies. The warhound is pretty much just a smaller and faster version of the thor. Nothing much else to say.
New full zerg spellcaster. Replaces the overseer. Have three abilities. The first one is to grant another unit detection permanently (thus replacing overseer). The second one is "blinding cloud", what it does is prevents units inside the cloud to shoot out of it. The main purpose of the Viper unit is to break chokepoints, and this is it's "main ability". The third spell is <don't have a name>. What it does is either pull a unit towards the Viper, or pushes it away (i think). Sort of like death grip and life grip in wow, if anyone catched that reference. Designed to snipe expensive units such as colossus, siegetank, immortal etc.
Zerg artillery unit. It's sort of like a mix between a burrowed broodlord and a lurker. The intention of the unit is to give zerg a unit that gives map control, as well as being able to set the enemy base at "siege". It does nothing while unburrowed, and it's attack only works while burrowed.
A new unit that's being built in the Robotics Facility. It's (only) ability is to duplicate a unit that's currently visible on the map. What's interesting to note about this unit is that if you replicate i.e. a banshee, and the terran player doesn't have cloak researched - your replication will have cloak. In other words; whenever you replicate a unit, you'll have all the available upgrades for that unit. Tanks will have siegemode, ravens will have seeker missile etc. It costs 200/200 and 4 supply, so if you replicate a marine, you'll use 4 supply to hold a 1 supply unit. You can indeed replicate workers and build structures with the new worker.
This is the new protoss harass unit. It's a flying units. I'm not certain of which building it's being produced in. It's very "worker friendly", and can't deal damage to workers. It's designed to harass the enemy economy. It has three abilities (as far as I know), the first one is a mineral-block, that puts a shield around enemy mineral-fields, preventing them to be mined until the spell expire, or until the shields are destroyed. The second ability is somewhat similar to what we've seen Zeratul have in the WoL campaign. You can place a "force field" around an enemy building to disable it. I don't know if this will work on production buildings yet, but you can neutralize buildings such as the spine and sporecrawler. The third ability is to see what's being produced in a building.
This is the new "capital ship" for Protoss. It's a tier 3 air unit, that's going to replace Carrier. This unit is a powerful aoe anti-air unit, and does + damage to light units (mutalisk). It also have a fairly powerful ground attack, and is therefore a pretty all-around tier 3 air unit, with lots of utility.
I really feel like they fucked up on fixing protoss problem... giving us a harrasunit that cant atack, a late game unit to counter midgame mutas. And a replicant that cost more than anything it can steal.
On October 23 2011 07:37 Teiwaz wrote: Actually I'm amazed Dustin Browder had the balls to personally present that shit and nobody face slapped him off the stage.
I'm a little bit surprised about the love for the Tempest. Seriously, an expensive late game unit to deal with mid-game Muta balls? o.O
Guessing from the video the Shredder seems stupidly OP.
The "cutting edge tech" Warhound looks like an early prototype for the Goliath, based on a SCV. Great job unit design department.
Attack/Spawn speed of the Swarm Host renders it quite useless IMO. Once again, great job on creating a burrowed Broodlord that mimics a Lurker.
If I want Terran or Zerg units, I'd fucking play that race - I don't need a stupid Replicant for that.
I like the Oracle, Swarm Host and Shredder the most out of all the units. The Replicant seems so stupid, as if they couldn't come up with anything good to give Protoss and thought have a chance to get the OTHER races units would be clever and fun, but it just isn't.
So Ghosts and Infestors are too strong, so justz get your own ones? Really? Thats your solution?!
Maaan =_=
I also see the replicient being the source of a ton of problems, it has soo many uses and there will be so much abusable stuff. But as a protoss Id rather have my own good units instead of copying my opponents Idk, I guess it WILL be very strong but I dont like the design.
The oracle looks just like a cutesy gimick, idk, the problem with stargate tech is that you lack anything that can actually BATTLE.
And the Tempest, idk. If its only point is to kill mutalisks then its missing the point. Because the problem with mutas is mainly that they run away. The mutalisk will obviously drop like flies when 20 of them are stacked in one place. Dont see this working. And if Vikings/Corruptors will rape it like they did with the carriers, I dont see how they should change anything.
I also find the thought of a bio ball with some riot police hellions against zealots to be nasty.
Protoss need some good solid units that can be the backbone of their army, or some lategame upgrades for stalker/immortal, we need some stuff that can be strong in battle and doesnt have a hardcounter. Instead we get cutesy expensive units. The nexus abilitys are great (the cheese aspect of the nexus cannon will hopefully be taken care off), but the units?
I also think its stupid that they tried to fix the reaper and the corruptor but the carrier just gpt axed
On October 23 2011 07:37 Teiwaz wrote: Actually I'm amazed Dustin Browder had the balls to personally present that shit and nobody face slapped him off the stage.
I'm a little bit surprised about the love for the Tempest. Seriously, an expensive late game unit to deal with mid-game Muta balls? o.O
Guessing from the video the Shredder seems stupidly OP.
The "cutting edge tech" Warhound looks like an early prototype for the Goliath, based on a SCV. Great job unit design department.
Attack/Spawn speed of the Swarm Host renders it quite useless IMO. Once again, great job on creating a burrowed Broodlord that mimics a Lurker.
If I want Terran or Zerg units, I'd fucking play that race - I don't need a stupid Replicant for that.
The protoss units are complete shit. Suddenly no interest in the expansion at all.
Whoever designed the protoss units should be fired.
- An extremely specific mutalisk/phoenix counter. Not total garbage, so by the standards of the rest a sucess! Phoenix play in pvp now has a direct strong counter which is less interesting than the stalker/phoenix balance of play.
- and a units that lets me build the other races non massive units at double the cost. Terrible. NP but with a supply cost of 4. Infestors are the only viable target as you wont see mech much in PvT. Ghosts are 10000x less good for me than they are for the terran since terran doesnt have shields so copying them is daft. Worthless unless you can copy workers, but then why not just start me with SCVs and a command centre you idiots?
- The worlds least effective harass unit in any rts. It was a struggle to produce a unit to make protoss harass even less effective than dts and phoenix but they managed it! It also casts a less good version of contaminate!
I can already forcefield minerals except y'know senrtys can kill shit too.
"You could lose as much as 500 minerals from this action!" As opposed to a marine or marauder drop or mutas where you can lose your whole fucking base? Or 4 hellions and lose every single worker?
500 minerals! Well shit, killing workers not only does this and more but you have to rebuild the workers. A dead worker doesnt mine a patch again ever and costs 50 minerals to rebuild. Marine drops and mutas can kill buildings and force a base race how is this anything like a good deal for protoss?
Brilliantly its also countered by a turrets/spores just like phoenix and DTs or a single viking like warp prisms! Oh you could disable the turrets but mutas kill turrets, thats much more effective. Typing BM constantly is more effective harass than the gimicy bullshit they added.
Its early days but if this is what protoss can expect then why should they check in before legacy of the void? Why even then?
I'm hoping that this makes Mech more viable in the various Tv match-ups, especially TvP. I hope that the Warhound will be good and I REALLY REALLY REALLY want them to change the model. It just looks bad; either make it look more like the Goliath or a Warhammer 40,000 Dreadnought. The current model looks like a piece of crap.
Honestly, nearly every new unit in HotS is made to fulfil a job that could already be fulfilled in WoL just by microing well and playing smart. The only unit I believe brings a new dynamic is the Oracle. Giving Protoss an early raider is exactly what they need. Everything else new just seems like they are removing the need for heavy microing.
I like the Warhound, Battle Hellion, Swarm Host, Viper, and Tempest. I'm worried about how powerful Shredder drops will potentially be, while the replicant and the oracle just seem gimmicky. Terran mech looks like it will be fun as hell, and the Viper will be such a useful unit for Zerg to snipe defensive positions. The tempest will definitely see play for late game Protoss at least in PvZ, but I'd like to see something else for them that doesn't cost an arm and leg.
Terran: I like the changes, not sure about the Thor becoming the Odin. I hope that shredders will be patched so that workers do not activate them.
Zerg: Seems great, maybe the swarm host's cooldown could change a bit. I feel that it's a bit long. I don't know the exact stats, but I'm sure that it'll be tweaked well.
Toss: Replicant seems...interesting. I have a feeling that it won't make through the beta though. The oracle seems ok, but removing the mothership for it is quite stupid. Same for tempest-carrier.
Spot on, dude. Your insight in flaming is pretty amazing.
yes, they shouldn't introduce anything that wasn't in BW--that is totally the point of sequels and expansions.
That's not my point. I'm not saying they shouldn't add units from BW, but presenting them as "hey, look at the awesome ideas we had!" is just...meh... I'm just not getting all the hype fuzz surrounding such stuff. If they think they need Defilers & Co they should say so and do an evolved version.
On October 23 2011 08:25 AidanS wrote: Infestors are the only viable target as you wont see mech much in PvT. Ghosts are 10000x less good for me than they are for the terran since terran doesnt have shields so copying them is daft.
Spoken like someone who hasn't played the game. I replicated ghosts to EMP medivacs and I stole Vipers against Z. I don't get the hate on Replicants, it's not a simple cost equation but also the kind of abilities you can acquire.
why are people hating on the protoss units, i can't wait to build command centers and mule or a hatchery for 300 mins when i want to expand, or tech up to medvacs with my chargelot/archon combo
The way you get rid of death balls is by changing unit collision and path finding so they don't clump up into a facking ball. You don't invent units that have wonky attributes that prevent them from being effective in a straight up fight.
What is the lore behind protoss inventing a harass unit that can't actually deal damage in a physical way? They were to lazy to stick a laser on the damn thing or what? And while we are the subject of lore being inconsistent why the hell does the most technologically advanced race have to resort to copying their enemies units? Shouldn't we be able to come up with something worthwhile on our own?
Maybe a slug-like thing that shoots out scarabs and deals massive amounts of damage. That sounds like something protoss would invent.
1)If it is Zeg's expansions why there are 3 unit for terran 3 for protoss and 2 for zerg???? 2)If I dont want to buy HotS and I stay will I be able to use new units in multiplayer (Yeah seems stupid , but blizzard loves $ so much I wont be surprised by any option)
I really don't want the replicant. I seriously don't want to have to rely on copying a unit. I want protoss units! I don't want to use terran or zerg units!! Also, the oracle needs to have some way to do sooommmething useful in a battle.
I mean cmon.. whats the difference between Infestors and Swarm Hosts? They both fill that same niche apart from Infestors actually have more utility. I dunno, I'm not sold just yet.
On October 23 2011 08:40 Corsica wrote: Can someone explain me 2 things :
1)If it is Zeg's expansions why there are 3 unit for terran 3 for protoss and 2 for zerg???? 2)If I dont want to buy HotS and I stay will I be able to use new units in multiplayer (Yeah seems stupid , but blizzard loves $ so much I wont be surprised by any option)
2) No, you won't be able to use them and, I guess, you won't be able to play against someone with HotS. Pretty sure there will be 2 different lobbies - one for WoL, one for HotS.
On October 23 2011 08:25 AidanS wrote: Infestors are the only viable target as you wont see mech much in PvT. Ghosts are 10000x less good for me than they are for the terran since terran doesnt have shields so copying them is daft.
Spoken like someone who hasn't played the game. I replicated ghosts to EMP medivacs and I stole Vipers against Z. I don't get the hate on Replicants, it's not a simple cost equation but also the kind of abilities you can acquire.
If you are copying ghosts versus ghosts you are getting involved in a micro battle where if he wins you lose your caster energy, shields and the game and if you win you get to not die having spent more money and supply.
the stupid replicate isn't really a toss unit. Its just a unit that lets you pay more for some of the other races units cause yours suck.........
oracle is just bad for so many reason from a design standpoint.......
so they fix ultras and buff BC AGAIN yet carriers get scrapped without any fixes!?!@? DERP DERP lets get rid of capital ships and give them a super expensive corsair and you need a fleet beacon to build it!!!
nexi recall is the only thing going for toss this expansion.
looks like I will be playing PvP's in vanilla/WOL like all the other toss who don't switch over.......
On October 23 2011 08:37 eeizbee wrote: why are people hating on the protoss units, i can't wait to build command centers and mule or a hatchery for 300 mins when i want to expand, or tech up to medvacs with my chargelot/archon combo
Really good point. NOW I CAN GET MULES BITCHES!
It's true that protoss has the least economic potential. MAYBE this could change something, but honestly probably not.
But I think people are hating a little too much. We don't know how good the oracle could be, though it isn't all that exciting.
On October 23 2011 08:37 eeizbee wrote: why are people hating on the protoss units, i can't wait to build command centers and mule or a hatchery for 300 mins when i want to expand, or tech up to medvacs with my chargelot/archon combo
Really good point. NOW I CAN GET MULES BITCHES!
It's true that protoss has the least economic potential. MAYBE this could change something, but honestly probably not.
But I think people are hating a little too much. We don't know how good the oracle could be, though it isn't all that exciting.
people hate it not because it would not be useful but that fact that its not really a toss unit. It lets you build Z or T units. If I want to use those units I would just switch races.... Replicate is such a gimmick and is NOT what toss needs to fill the gaps in the race....
On October 23 2011 08:40 Corsica wrote: Can someone explain me 2 things :
1)If it is Zeg's expansions why there are 3 unit for terran 3 for protoss and 2 for zerg???? 2)If I dont want to buy HotS and I stay will I be able to use new units in multiplayer (Yeah seems stupid , but blizzard loves $ so much I wont be surprised by any option)
Really they are adding 2 units to each race with some tweeks...
Toss gets 3 units but we lost carriers so really we are + 2 on units Terran has a unit that is just a transforming hellion so they dont really gain a unit as much as a unit is being tweeked Zerg gain 2 units and lose nothing and change nothing so they are +2 on units
in the end really every race is getting about the same thing for additions
On October 23 2011 08:48 Plansix wrote: I swear, if that battle hellion does not cost gas I will be pissed. There is no way terran can have an all mineral unit with an AOE.
Well, they did have before - and they are the only race with 2 units that only cost minerals.
On October 23 2011 08:40 Corsica wrote: Can someone explain me 2 things :
1)If it is Zeg's expansions why there are 3 unit for terran 3 for protoss and 2 for zerg???? 2)If I dont want to buy HotS and I stay will I be able to use new units in multiplayer (Yeah seems stupid , but blizzard loves $ so much I wont be surprised by any option)
HotS is a zerg campaign.
Multiplayer HoTS is just a continuation of WOL multiplayer to make it better.
Love these polls... show how much "meh" or "that's just a stupid idea" mentality these units produce among the community.
I think most of them are shit and from what I've heard pro's say about Defiler in BW was that sure it was a skill momentum but a boring ass one that made for boring games. The rest are just a trainwreck of units most of them...
On October 23 2011 08:45 Rorschach wrote: the stupid replicate isn't really a toss unit. Its just a unit that lets you pay more for some of the other races units cause yours suck.........
oracle is just bad for so many reason from a design standpoint.......
so they fix ultras and buff BC AGAIN yet carriers get scrapped without any fixes!?!@? DERP DERP lets get rid of capital ships and give them a super expensive corsair and you need a fleet beacon to build it!!!
nexi recall is the only thing going for toss this expansion.
looks like I will be playing PvP's in vanilla/WOL like all the other toss who don't switch over.......
I think you really need to see how replicate will pan out. If you could get workers it will be great, though I imagine that would be difficult.
But I do have to agree about tempest. Mass mutas are powerful because of early/mid game muta timings. The unit isn't interesting at all.
But I really think the nexus abilities really do help in filling in the gaps. The defensive ability will help against terran and zerg cheese AND help PvP a ton in early game, and pvp still desperately needs help. And the recall will allow the toss to be aggressive.
On October 23 2011 07:37 Teiwaz wrote: Actually I'm amazed Dustin Browder had the balls to personally present that shit and nobody face slapped him off the stage.
I'm a little bit surprised about the love for the Tempest. Seriously, an expensive late game unit to deal with mid-game Muta balls? o.O
Guessing from the video the Shredder seems stupidly OP.
The "cutting edge tech" Warhound looks like an early prototype for the Goliath, based on a SCV. Great job unit design department.
Attack/Spawn speed of the Swarm Host renders it quite useless IMO. Once again, great job on creating a burrowed Broodlord that mimics a Lurker.
If I want Terran or Zerg units, I'd fucking play that race - I don't need a stupid Replicant for that.
The exploding units that can burrow?? *insert similar whinging*
Any unit did that in BW? No? Huh... I really think you got it.
Spot on, dude. Your insight in flaming is pretty amazing.
Those "crazy" units are in the game you are playing. The same bitter people whinged about them the same way you are whinging about proposed new units for the next expansion.
Relax, chill out and enjoy - don't be that nerd Tastosis do impressions of, just don't be
On October 23 2011 07:37 Teiwaz wrote: Actually I'm amazed Dustin Browder had the balls to personally present that shit and nobody face slapped him off the stage.
I'm a little bit surprised about the love for the Tempest. Seriously, an expensive late game unit to deal with mid-game Muta balls? o.O
Guessing from the video the Shredder seems stupidly OP.
The "cutting edge tech" Warhound looks like an early prototype for the Goliath, based on a SCV. Great job unit design department.
Attack/Spawn speed of the Swarm Host renders it quite useless IMO. Once again, great job on creating a burrowed Broodlord that mimics a Lurker.
If I want Terran or Zerg units, I'd fucking play that race - I don't need a stupid Replicant for that.
The exploding units that can burrow?? *insert similar whinging*
Any unit did that in BW? No? Huh... I really think you got it.
Spot on, dude. Your insight in flaming is pretty amazing.
Those "crazy" units are in the game you are playing. The same bitter people whinged about them the same way you are whinging about proposed new units for the next expansion.
Relax, chill out and enjoy - don't be that nerd Tastosis do impressions of, just don't be
Meh...yeah... maybe my "yay, fuck us toss again..." frustration level is getting a little bit in the way of positive thinking. Let's just say I'm totally NOT hyped for HotS now.
On October 23 2011 07:37 Teiwaz wrote: Actually I'm amazed Dustin Browder had the balls to personally present that shit and nobody face slapped him off the stage.
I'm a little bit surprised about the love for the Tempest. Seriously, an expensive late game unit to deal with mid-game Muta balls? o.O
Guessing from the video the Shredder seems stupidly OP.
The "cutting edge tech" Warhound looks like an early prototype for the Goliath, based on a SCV. Great job unit design department.
Attack/Spawn speed of the Swarm Host renders it quite useless IMO. Once again, great job on creating a burrowed Broodlord that mimics a Lurker.
If I want Terran or Zerg units, I'd fucking play that race - I don't need a stupid Replicant for that.
The exploding units that can burrow?? *insert similar whinging*
Any unit did that in BW? No? Huh... I really think you got it.
Spot on, dude. Your insight in flaming is pretty amazing.
Those "crazy" units are in the game you are playing. The same bitter people whinged about them the same way you are whinging about proposed new units for the next expansion.
Relax, chill out and enjoy - don't be that nerd Tastosis do impressions of, just don't be
Meh...yeah... maybe my "yay, fuck us toss again..." frustration level is getting a little bit in the way of positive thinking. Let's just say I'm totally NOT hyped for HotS now.
This this this this.
I think we really need to know how tempests will fair against vikings tbh, fun fact is that while carriers were destroyed by mariens they werent actually THAT terrible against vikings. The tempest will only do a ton of damage to light units, right?
btw does anyone find it funny that we get no answers to all the terran abuse but as soon as zergs start using mutas theyre trying to give us a hardcounter?
I understand the hate for protoss but understand it's all utility. The carrier was never used in pro play, perhaps now we will see the Tempest used in mass mutalisk strategies? It opens up options! Even in PvT as a buffer against vikings?
Protoss will still be making zealots/sentries/stalkers/immortals/colossus, I don't see how that's going to change. All protoss is getting are additions to the units protoss already normally uses. Are the new protoss units badly designed? I voted yes except on tempest, but I still think they have their uses. It's gonna come down to how the team balances these units so they aren't OP or nerfed beyond usefulness.
Zerg has the best units I think. The Viper is going to be a unit I use in every match up. Roach vs Roach wars is going to be fun with the new dark swarm, its also going to own in ZvT. The grab move will mostly be used in ZvP but I can see it's usefulness in grabbing siege tanks or escaping medivacs or pulling back weak mutas/ultras/queens etc.
Terran is getting a huge Mech buff and I think that's great. I think terran is getting the better end of the deal. The design of their warhound isn't my favorite but the theme of everything is fitting perfectly. The new spidermines are really going to allow mech to flourish in every matchup including TvP. The warhound will help with this, although the marauder already does it's job against stalkers, the Warhound will be a great late game transition, plus they will be very useful against mutas. I almost think warhound/battle hellion combinations will be very strong together in the late game in TvP.
Not to mention the new nexus buffs and general zerg unit buffs, this game is turning out to be exciting.
On October 23 2011 07:37 Teiwaz wrote: Actually I'm amazed Dustin Browder had the balls to personally present that shit and nobody face slapped him off the stage.
I'm a little bit surprised about the love for the Tempest. Seriously, an expensive late game unit to deal with mid-game Muta balls? o.O
Guessing from the video the Shredder seems stupidly OP.
The "cutting edge tech" Warhound looks like an early prototype for the Goliath, based on a SCV. Great job unit design department.
Attack/Spawn speed of the Swarm Host renders it quite useless IMO. Once again, great job on creating a burrowed Broodlord that mimics a Lurker.
If I want Terran or Zerg units, I'd fucking play that race - I don't need a stupid Replicant for that.
The exploding units that can burrow?? *insert similar whinging*
Any unit did that in BW? No? Huh... I really think you got it.
Spot on, dude. Your insight in flaming is pretty amazing.
Those "crazy" units are in the game you are playing. The same bitter people whinged about them the same way you are whinging about proposed new units for the next expansion.
Relax, chill out and enjoy - don't be that nerd Tastosis do impressions of, just don't be
Meh...yeah... maybe my "yay, fuck us toss again..." frustration level is getting a little bit in the way of positive thinking. Let's just say I'm totally NOT hyped for HotS now.
This this this this.
I think we really need to know how tempests will fair against vikings tbh, fun fact is that while carriers were destroyed by mariens they werent actually THAT terrible against vikings. The tempest will only do a ton of damage to light units, right?
btw does anyone find it funny that we get no answers to all the terran abuse but as soon as zergs start using mutas theyre trying to give us a hardcounter?
On the multiplayer panel, david said it will counter everything in the air fairly well if they're clumped to a degree. I imagine it'll look about as ugly as a thor (bonus to light) getting a shot off against a clump of vikings right now.
The only unit I like is the viper, the only unit that is even rationally designed is the viper. The rest are useless or literally add to the problem...
I'm switching from Protoss after this. I thought we could get some interesting units that change the way Protoss games play out. Instead, we get units that are purely complimentary and will not change the general strategy of Protoss. It's still gonna be about getting Colossi and High Templar/Archons and amassing a deathball. Protoss is just too boring, and will remain so in HotS.
Battle Hellions - I guess they might make mech more viable? I don't anticipate them being particularly unbalancing, so probably a good addition.
Ghost Cloaking - A small buff I think? Terrans'll be able to cloak Ghosts and not worry about running out of energy before they can launch their EMPs... as a Protoss, I should probably be against, but frankly Ghosts are a super sexy unit to play and watch, so no objections.
Reapers - Not much to say. Losing the structure attack seems a strange loss and the Reaper might lose some versatility as a result, not sure if their healing will compensate.
Battlecruisers - Might be cool, is their default speed going to be reduced back to its pre-patch state?
Shredder - Terran is complete enough that I didn't expect Blizzard to be able to give them something good and interesting that wasn't unbalancing or redundant, and yet here we are. I'm not sure how valuable this unit will actually be, but congratulations to Blizzard on the concept. Also, it has the name of a TMNT villain, so additional kudos.
Warhound/Thor - This, on the other hand... on the ground, this sounds like a big, slow, expensive Marauder that has neither Stim nor Concussive Shells, and in the air... I don't get it. Did Terrans have an anti-air problem? Vikings are fantastic air-to-air for expensive, armoured units, Thors are great against, cheap, clumped up light units (Banshees, Phoenixes, Mutalisks), and Marines rape anything that gets close. Why do we need and/or want this unit? What need does it serve?
Zerg
Burrow Charge - Cool.
Moving Burrowed Banelings - Very cool.
Hydralisk Speed Upgrade - A lot of people are going to be very happy about this.
Corrupter - Still the lamest unit in the game. The new ability might be useful, but it won't change the fact that the Corrupter only exists because of the Colossus. At least give it a melee attack or something to give it a personality.
Viper - Sounds interesting, if it could kill units by pulling them off cliffs it would instantly become the most epic unit in this expansion.
Swarm Host - A bit like a Lurker, but actually feels more Zergish. I like it.
Protoss
Nexus - Aside from cheese, I don't expect the Arc Cannon will be especially valuable compared to Chrono Boost and Mass Recall, but Mass Recall might actually be so awesome that I'll have to stop complaining about MULEs.
Oracle - I like the concept, but it'll take a lot of time to figure out how worthwhile this unit really is.
Replicant - Again, interesting concept, but again it's going to take a lot of time to figure out if it's really worthwhile.
Tempest - Doesn't sound particularly interesting. Kinda overlaps the Void Ray and Phoenix, making the entire set less interesting.
No Khaydarin Amulet . Colossus still terrible unit.
Battle helion: essentially a firebat, why not just bring back the firebat then?
Shredder: some form of static defense that doesn't require units. +1 for me.
Warhound: cosmetically scv + roids lol. Closer to what the goliath was so I like it and I like the bonus to mech but I think air splash is over kill.
Viper: I like the spell that reduces range... that's about it.
Swarm host: worst of the new units IMO, the spawns themselves are not an attack like the broodlords so there's a chance that they will just get melted by an army before they do anything, zerg still lacks ranged splash(non-spell) and still not a true cloacked attacker, this is essentially infested terrans on auto cast.
Tempest: I think they should've worked on carriers, this unit seems ok but the carrier was a classic.
Replicant: not sure about this unit.
Oracle: the mineral forcefield looks annoying but the stasis for static defense could be a headache
Aside from the utility of the units or potential balance problems, I think they're going to need to do some improvements in the visuals and animations.
The viper pull attack looks ridiculous. You have a flying unit, holding perfectly still, while yanking a massive ground unit like it's a Kleenex box. It goes completely against all your sense of physics, and just looks like nonsense. If anything, the colossus would tip over! It would make more sense if the pulling was slower with more sensible acceleration and the viper moved backwards like a tugboat, or if the viper was a ground unit. Make massive units *look* heavy when you're pulling them.
The warhound just looks silly, as do all the new Protoss units.
The Ultralisk burrow charge is a cool concept, but it looks really silly for it to move more quickly underground than above. Give it a leaping/pouncing attack instead. Same effect, but less laughable physics.
For some reason, I see the Terran shredder causing problems. Sure it helps Terran when they leave their base, but how can zerg counter then? I am not suggesting they should get rid of it, but hopefully it won't be over-powered. It'll be a sad day if I do a run by into a Terran base and suddenly lose all my lings in a few seconds.
Seems to me like Toss has become the we like workers race, really a "harrass" unit which actually doesn't kill workers? Even the mechanics of blocking the minerals for a certain amount of time isn't really new since you could do the same with a sentry drop, but nearly no one does it, because if you just want to prevent your opponent from mining for a certain amount of time basicly any attack will do this as a side effect. The other ability of the oracle seems to be a nice idea, but the oracle is certainly not the unit, that will resolve the protoss harass problem. The replicator seemed to be a good idea, but its concept remembers me to much of an ability of the dark archon from BW only weaker and this ability was even rarely used. So why go this direction when it allready failed in the past. About the Tempest, the idea seems good but we have to see, how it will be working in the future to see if it really helps with mass air in the lategame. I was pretty much unimpressed by the video, if you clump up your mutas in such a way Archons would have done the same job. Even if the Tempest seems to be the best new protoss unit, I would have prefered to still have the carrier...
About the others races it seems like the Zerg got the most of the stuff they wanted (somekind of defiler + units that can attack while burrowed) about terran I am not sure what they wanted/needed.
well, 1 thing i think people need to consider is that unit stats could change with Hots depending on how things play out. if some of the units are to powerful/ not powerful enough the units we currently have could become strong or the cost change etc which can entirly change the game
On October 23 2011 10:19 AeonStrife wrote: For some reason, I see the Terran shredder causing problems. Sure it helps Terran when they leave their base, but how can zerg counter then? I am not suggesting they should get rid of it, but hopefully it won't be over-powered. It'll be a sad day if I do a run by into a Terran base and suddenly lose all my lings in a few seconds.
Idk, I guess we'll see how it will work out.
Well its only useful if Terran is going Mech. If their going bio they Mutas can just wipe out these gassy units and I'm sure their low HP so blings will still wreck them. Or infested Terrans. And remember these are factory units. Meaning that every Shredder is a tank that is not producing or that Terran need to invest 100gas for another factory.
Basically It will turn into BW mech, where Zerg has to get a huge Econ and break Terran with endless waves of units. Most likely Hydras with speed plus Vipers for defence. Remember that Vipers can reduce Shredder range to 1 O_O.
I forsee Muta harass into Mass Hydra with Viper support
The swarm host is shit. Zerg needed something with defensive capabilities that could hold ground......this does neither. It spawns 2 visible broodlings every like 20 seconds and doesn't do splash damage. I actually cant think of scenarios where this unit is good.
On October 23 2011 05:47 BushidoSnipr wrote: Why is TL hatin on the toss units..I think theyre amazing and will definitely help the race out a TON (<--- zerg player)
A major problem is the replica thing because when you go into a game as a certain race you want to play that race. Not build the other races units at an overexpensive cost.
Also blizzard saying that "maybe protoss players have a hard time with ghost now we want to give them the ability to use them". I mean COME ON, ghosts are good because they get the shields away making zealots melt and taking away ht energy.. it is by far nothing i want to use vs a terran army. Blizzard why would i want to make more expensive ghosts to counter ghost so they cant counter my gateway stuff? Really?
This this this this. Holy crap this is exactly what I'm thinking. Also, it made me literally sad thinking about having to use this unit (dia protoss)
I'm actually very very disappointed in the swarm host, as a Zerg player. In my opinion, it needs one of these things to actually merit use:
1. Much faster rate of fire. 2. Much scarier units spawned. 3. Units don't time out for a long enough time to allow a few rounds of them to exist concurrently if the swarm host sits around making them long enough. 4. Units spawned move much faster (broodling speed, maybe.)
It seems the use against Terran is extremely heavily dependent on causing friendly fire splash from siege tanks, forcing them to unsiege and thus allowing Zerg to break the position. That's all fine and dandy, but what about against Protoss? Since all mid-late game Protoss armies waltz around with an observer and lack any autocast friendly fire abilities, I very much expect swarm hosts to be as uncommon in ZvP as hydras currently are in ZvT.
On October 23 2011 10:33 UmiNotsuki wrote: I'm actually very very disappointed in the swarm host, as a Zerg player. In my opinion, it needs one of these things to actually merit use:
1. Much faster rate of fire. 2. Much scarier units spawned 3. Units don't time out for a long enough time to allow a few rounds of them to exist concurrently if the swarm host sits around making them long enough. 4. Units spawned move much faster (broodling speed, maybe.)
It seems the use against Terran is extremely heavily dependent on causing friendly fire splash from siege tanks, forcing them to unsiege and thus allowing Zerg to break the position. That's all fine and dandy, but what about against Protoss? Since all mid-late game Protoss armies waltz around with an observer and lack any autocast friendly fire abilities, I very much expect swarm hosts to be as uncommon in ZvP as hydras currently are in ZvT.
I was talking about this with my friend. Swarm Host really needs to spawn more units at a faster rate. The way it is now it simply suicidal buff Zerg Lings. May be it should spawn suicide units without splash.
So... Sorry for being P-biased but I have to ask - since David Kim himself pointed out P is having some issues lately...
T are getting an alternative use for hellions + new useful units on the cost of the thor - being a rarer (yet stronger) superunit Z are getting more very versatile units P are getting 2 gimmicky units and the tempest - while losing carrier and mothership.
Anything released about T and Z losing units? 'Cuz honestly this is David Kim (again) saying one thing - but doing the opposite
On October 23 2011 10:08 DARKHYDRA wrote: Battle helion: essentially a firebat, why not just bring back the firebat then?
Shredder: some form of static defense that doesn't require units. +1 for me.
Warhound: cosmetically scv + roids lol. Closer to what the goliath was so I like it and I like the bonus to mech but I think air splash is over kill.
Viper: I like the spell that reduces range... that's about it.
Swarm host: worst of the new units IMO, the spawns themselves are not an attack like the broodlords so there's a chance that they will just get melted by an army before they do anything, zerg still lacks ranged splash(non-spell) and still not a true cloacked attacker, this is essentially infested terrans on auto cast.
Tempest: I think they should've worked on carriers, this unit seems ok but the carrier was a classic.
Replicant: not sure about this unit.
Oracle: the mineral forcefield looks annoying but the stasis for static defense could be a headache
The reason that the Warhound is replacing the Thor as the primary mech ground to air unit is because that role for the Thor never really fit the unit.
The Thor right now is really only useful as an AA unit, and in that role it sort of sucks because it's really slow and really clunky. Magic Boxing is only possible because of the ridiculous unit model it has.
With the Warhound, Mech will be a little more mobile, and AA will be a little better. Also the Warhound has the added benefit of helping to break siege tank lines in TvT which will open up that match up in the late game a bit.
The new Thor is just going to be what Blizz wanted it to be from the beginning. A super late tech, beefy mech unit with lots of damage and tanking potential. It doesn't have AA capability anymore.
They're making mech much more dynamic and fun to play with these changes. I love them.
heres a suggestion. Maybe the replicant... morphs into a more advanced and cooler version of whatever its changing into... like a super ghost or super tank with 15 range.
Just kidding get rid of it please blizzard give us a protoss unit.
On October 23 2011 10:36 Mentalizor wrote: So... Sorry for being P-biased but I have to ask - since David Kim himself pointed out P is having some issues lately...
T are getting an alternative use for hellions + new useful units on the cost of the thor - being a rarer (yet stronger) superunit Z are getting more very versatile units P are getting 2 gimmicky units and the tempest - while losing carrier and mothership.
Anything released about T and Z losing units? 'Cuz honestly this is David Kim (again) saying one thing - but doing the opposite
The overseer is leaving because it was a lame unit idea from the beginning. You can't make a caster that has both 0 population requirement and has good spells.
The Corruptor is getting a new ability that will hopefully make it more multi-dimensional. They're doing this rather than outright removing it like they were talking about before.
The Carrier and Mothership are leaving because no one uses them and they can't really find a use for them. The Mothership's Mass recall is being moved to the nexus (an AWESOME change just btw.) And the tempest is an overall better unit than the carrier.
The only thing really being removed here is the mass cloaking field the mothership provided, and to be honest that was never really a big deal to begin with in the super late game, as well as the vortex ability which was never really much good to begin with either.
I'd love for them to edit the Mothership, give it some new abilities and keep it in because I think Protoss having a super unit is a good idea, but as it is right now it's neither extremely helpful nor a particularly fun unit to use.
Is it me or the swarm thing looks horridly underpowered? what the hell, in the video they burrow like 10 of them, and every 5 minutes, it spews some tiny hydralisks. Is it me or does it seem like it would be freakingly useless against stimmed marines? the locusts are soooo slow, for sure if the swarm lord is to do its true purpose locusts should have some sort of explosive damage when it dies a la baneling. That would for sure break siege lines, and for sure freak out a protoss deathball. Right now its just a gimmicky unit..
On October 23 2011 10:43 TheBlueMeaner wrote: Is it me or the swarm thing looks horridly underpowered? what the hell, in the video they burrow like 10 of them, and every 5 minutes, it spews some tiny hydralisks. Is it me or does it seem like it would be freakingly useless against stimmed marines? the locusts are soooo slow, for sure if the swarm lord is to do its true purpose it should have some sort of explosive damage when it dies a la baneling. That would for sure break siege lines, and for sure freak out a protoss deathball. Right now its just a gimmicky unit..
It isn't meant for killing stimmed marines, it's meant to break a turtling Terran or Turtling Protoss.
You're trying to use it the way Siege Tanks are used and it's not really for that. Zerg already has plenty of splash damage and is gaining a new ability on the viper specifically designed for helping to kill marines.
It'll be a good defensive unit, and a good unit for sieging up bases.
Interesting, seems like people have the opposite reaction to mine regarding the units. At least we can agree that they do nothing to fix Protoss' core problem.
Incidentally, if the Replicant can unmorph from whatever unit they turned into after use, then that would actually be quite versatile, you can turn them into whatever unit you need at that moment, then turn it back into a Replicant in case you need to turn it into something else later.
On October 23 2011 10:43 TheBlueMeaner wrote: Is it me or the swarm thing looks horridly underpowered? what the hell, in the video they burrow like 10 of them, and every 5 minutes, it spews some tiny hydralisks. Is it me or does it seem like it would be freakingly useless against stimmed marines? the locusts are soooo slow, for sure if the swarm lord is to do its true purpose it should have some sort of explosive damage when it dies a la baneling. That would for sure break siege lines, and for sure freak out a protoss deathball. Right now its just a gimmicky unit..
It isn't meant for killing stimmed marines, it's meant to break a turtling Terran or Turtling Protoss.
You're trying to use it the way Siege Tanks are used and it's not really for that. Zerg already has plenty of splash damage and is gaining a new ability on the viper specifically designed for helping to kill marines.
It'll be a good defensive unit, and a good unit for sieging up bases.
It still seems like the only use it would have is against tanks because THEY deal the splash damage. How about protoss deathballs? you just forcefield the little buggers and lol over the swarm lords.
It needs something to deter people from moving into an area. Little hydralisks every 5 minutes just isnt enough. In the demostration video the little hydras kill 1 bunker in the duration of the whole video. Have you seen the other demostration videos? the terran units pretty much f0ck up masses of units they engage...
so the proud warriors, unable to battle their enemies no more, decide it's time to copy their enemies' warriors because they can't find another way to fight them? really? that doesn't sound very protoss minded, if you ask me...
On October 23 2011 10:43 TheBlueMeaner wrote: Is it me or the swarm thing looks horridly underpowered? what the hell, in the video they burrow like 10 of them, and every 5 minutes, it spews some tiny hydralisks. Is it me or does it seem like it would be freakingly useless against stimmed marines? the locusts are soooo slow, for sure if the swarm lord is to do its true purpose it should have some sort of explosive damage when it dies a la baneling. That would for sure break siege lines, and for sure freak out a protoss deathball. Right now its just a gimmicky unit..
It isn't meant for killing stimmed marines, it's meant to break a turtling Terran or Turtling Protoss.
You're trying to use it the way Siege Tanks are used and it's not really for that. Zerg already has plenty of splash damage and is gaining a new ability on the viper specifically designed for helping to kill marines.
It'll be a good defensive unit, and a good unit for sieging up bases.
It still seems like the only use it would have is against tanks because THEY deal the splash damage. How about protoss deathballs? you just forcefield the little buggers and lol over the swarm lords.
It needs something to deter people from moving into an area. Little hydralisks every 5 minutes just isnt enough. In the demostration video the little hydras kill 1 bunker in the duration of the whole video. Have you seen the other demostration videos? the terran units pretty much f0ck up masses of units they engage...
First of all. Demonstration videos are specifically designed to make the unit look good. We don't know exactly how well each of these units are going to perform yet, the game isn't even in beta yet. Basing ANYTHING off the demonstration videos is akin to pure theorycrafting.
That said.
The Swarm Host to me seems like a ground version of a Brood Lord. It's useful for all the same reasons the Broodlord is useful for but doesn't have the disadvantage of being able to be picked off by Vikings or Void Rays.
Its a very nice counter for Siege Tanks whos targetting AI gets bugged out by the damn things and also provides probably a midgame alternative to broodlords for a turtling player that a Zerg can't break.
It's a Siege Unit that doesn't require Spire Tech to use, and isn't countered by Anti Air units, since one of the most difficult things to do as a Zerg player is to actually breach fortified positions I can't see why this unit combined with possibly the Viper doesn't excite you.
On October 23 2011 10:33 UmiNotsuki wrote: I'm actually very very disappointed in the swarm host, as a Zerg player. In my opinion, it needs one of these things to actually merit use:
1. Much faster rate of fire. 2. Much scarier units spawned 3. Units don't time out for a long enough time to allow a few rounds of them to exist concurrently if the swarm host sits around making them long enough. 4. Units spawned move much faster (broodling speed, maybe.)
It seems the use against Terran is extremely heavily dependent on causing friendly fire splash from siege tanks, forcing them to unsiege and thus allowing Zerg to break the position. That's all fine and dandy, but what about against Protoss? Since all mid-late game Protoss armies waltz around with an observer and lack any autocast friendly fire abilities, I very much expect swarm hosts to be as uncommon in ZvP as hydras currently are in ZvT.
I was talking about this with my friend. Swarm Host really needs to spawn more units at a faster rate. The way it is now it simply suicidal buff Zerg Lings. May be it should spawn suicide units without splash.
How about, instead of the locust spawning at the location of the Swarm Host, they spawn about 6 range away from the Swarm Host, and they move a bit faster than they do now. That way a lower spawn rate, like 5 seconds instead of 15 seconds, would feel more natural - and the unit would be far more useful.
I like the tempest the least of the protoss units, it is more like a unit that would be in warcraft 3, big area of effect attack, no skill needed to use (then again the colossus is like that too).
The replicator seems like a really cool unit because of the variability it offers but it seems weird to copy another race's unit.
I don't play protoss but I'm curious as to why the protosses don't think these units will help their race, protoss gains air superiority, and they have more options for special tactics. And I've seen reports from progamers who like the new units for toss.
I do agree with a lot of the sentiment in this thread.
A unit that copies other units just seems like a cop out. Even if it is incredibly powerful it's still nowhere near as exciting as a unique Protoss unit that might only fill a niche role.
If i wanted to use Siege Tanks or Infestors I'd play Terran or Zerg. I play Protoss because I like Protoss units.
Battle Hellion - Seriously... They want to make a anti-light raider more robust..? Was Zealot/Archon really that bad the EMP didn't do enough burst damage...? Why not just add the Firebat (which is what this unit transforms into)?
Warhound - Ugly. Some of the fun about Muta micro was skirting the range of Thors. Catch a Thor out of position and magic box was great.
Shredder - Interesting idea, gave it to the wrong race. Terran already dominates in static control. If this ever gets implemented with maps like Typhon Peaks, I will officially stop playing Zerg and just switch to Terran.
Viper - Interesting, seems fun. Not sure about the "pull", doesn't seem very Zerg to me but will definitely add micro to battles.
Swarm Host - Do they really not want to give Zerg the Lurker that bad..? I get the idea, they want it to be "fresh and exciting" to have something new but the design just seems horrible to me... Even the video didn't impress.
Tempest - I actually like the idea. We might actually Protoss building capital ships now.
Oracle - I'm meh about the unit. The idea of harassing via denying mining is at least a new idea.
Replicant - I don't really like it. I can see it now, copy Infester -> Fungal+Storm. This unit will be so hard to balance I don't see it even remotely in it's current form making it into the game.
Feel free to rip me a new one if you disagree via PM or in the thread if it doesn't derail it...
On October 23 2011 11:00 chesshaha wrote: can a Replicant copy a scv or drone that build structures?
That could be could we toss can have a 400 deathball :p
If they keep the ability for the Replicant to copy workers (it currently can) the food for all your armies can still not exceed 200. This is something they implemented back in Warcraft 3. It'd be hilarious if they didn't implement it in Starcraft as well.
That said, I don't think the Replicant will be able to copy workers for long it's a can of worms that Blizzard definitely doesn't want to deal with.
I think Zerg are going to be fine, Terran are fine except for some instances where EMP is a bit to powerful (They are a complete race imo) Shredder needs to be a borderline useless unit to be balanced and goliath seems ok.
Toss seems terrible doesn't fix anything and little to the game other than recall. Tempest is ok and might be ok to use vs mutas like the thor is currently.
I can just imagine the conversation on Aiur when the Oracle was being designed:
Artanis: Executor, I seek your counsel on the design of our new raiding unit. It's called the Oracle.
Selendis: Excellent.
Artanis: Our engineers have debated a number of possible weapon systems for...
Selendis: Hold on - weapons? I'm not sure if I'm quite sold on...
Artanis: Surely such a unit requires offensive capabilities?
Selendis: If you say so...
Artanis: Well, the first option is a powerful phase-laser - it consumes tremendous amounts of void energy but can quickly decimate enemy worker lines and structures.
Selendis: Ehhh, lasers are too flashy, what else ya got?
Artanis: Too fla...? Ahem, well... Well, another possibility is a phase generator, capable rapidly firing superheated slugs of plasma. It's devastating against infantry and lightly armored Zerg forces.
Selendis: I dunno, that sounds kinda complicated. I mean, plasma?
Artanis: Well, my favorite option is a psionic shock wave, a crippling area of effect weapon.
Selenids: You know, what I really was looking for was bubbles.
Artanis: Bubbles? Like powerful... You want bubbles?
Selendis: Yes. Bubbles. Bubbles to keep them from mining. We don't really want to hurt anyone you see.
I'm not a huge fan of any of them apart from the Viper, the Oracle and the Replicator.
The Swarm Host sucks because it just reminds you how much better a design the lurker is and how much more useful in terms of map and ramp control it would be, while the swarm host is just a really lame siege tank that may end up super powerful but still effin boring.
The Warhound is a shitty goliath that supports Blizzard2.0's fetish for anti air AoE crap in a game that automatically groups air units way more than BW ever did. It's like they're trying to condone micro that revolves around fighting the game's systems instead of fixing the systems in the first place.
The Shredder is just a stupid spidermine that is either going to be ridiculously powerful in terms of not being able engage a terran on a map with limited options for unit movement (i.e. most blizzard maps). The downside to it is dumb as heck, it would be so much better if they made it activate when enemy units are in range so you can use them like spider mines to hurt the terran that put them down if they're not careful about moving forward. Spider mines are just a better idea in general though.
The protoss air capital ship thing i forgot the name of is just a corsair if it sucked and cost a shit load and is just such a remarkably boring unit I don't get why they added it.
I do like the viper primarily because on larger maps you won't just bring siege tanks and colossi to you, you can take them out of range of the rest of the battle if you manage to do some multi directional shenanigans. DWeb is always cool too. The detection is wonky as heck to be honest but whatever they're apparently hell bent on making scouting and detection a huge pain for everyone but terran so who knows what they're thinking.
The oracle is the coolest thing in HotS by far for me because it means protoss will have a lot of options in situations that don't necessarily occur yet which may start occurring in HotS, not just for phasing out AA buildings but hopefully you'll be able to phase out deployed shredders, plus the whole taking out buildings with upgrades and whatnot sounds fancy and opens up lots of possibilities.
The replicator is nice enough and I think it will give protoss a lot more flexibility to be more reactive and more importantly than all of that, if you can replicate drones and SCVs it leads into double race super fun time in stupid FFAs. In terms of pro play it seems somewhat limited due to the gas cost but it does lead to cool possibilities against trouble units for the protoss such as ghosts and possibly vipers.
Overall it's pretty disappointing new units wise, but the upgrades which make zerg awesome are awesome. Hydra speed is good, ultralisk charge is fantastic, burrowed baneling movement is incredible. Honestly if zerg haven't lost anything those are going to give zerg so many options and if you can put the detection thing on vipers and then scorpion harpoon observers, protoss are going to have huge problems.
Their dedication to putting in stuff that is a dumbed down version of the best stuff in broodwar is really depressing as it shows a level of hurt designer pride at this point, it's gone beyond a reasonable desire to differentiate the games when they add in stuff like Shredders.
I think it's really weird that blizzard emphasizes the fact that the shredder cannot be added to the deathball. Since it's basically static defense for supply it logically allows terrans to have the rest of their damage dealing units at the same place and do a deathball push without being worried of counter attacks. GJ Also the oracle, a raider unit that is worker friendly.... This is SC2 not kindergarten. I want to kill workers not just delay mining -_-'
I like all the new Zerg changes. I feel like every single change will have a positive use in the upcoming expansion.
Swarm Hosts will be good for tanking siege attacks while the lings go in Vipers will be good to use against units like the Collossus and blinding cloud will really be great for breaking entrenched positions
Burrow moving banelings will place a huge emphasis for other races to have detection with them at all times or risk having their army or key units destroyed by banelings. Not to mention they can't be target fired by siege tanks unless they throw down a scan during the battle.
Burrow/charge Ultralisks really will really help Zerg's tier 3 late game now that there is less need to worry about getting good surface area or for Ultras to be kited.
Oh and Hydra speed upgrade. This makes me so happy that I can finally start using Hydralisks for something besides AA.
Protoss nexus abilities are awesome I hope they make it to the final game. Besides the Oracle, I'm pretty happy with the changes, burrow banelings could yield some epic damn games. I just hope they change the model for the warhound which looks like a real transformer from the cartoons.
I'm very disappointed with the removal of carriers. Jangbi does not approve. Hope Blizz reverts soon.
The other units, that pretty closely resemble some of the missing original BW units sound very nice and make me happy. Warhound and battle hellion - uh, not sure why we need those.
I just imagine huge balance problems with the shredder... I mean the fact that Terran has to worry about counterattacks when they move out is A GOOD THING. It's part of the balance of the game. And all the possibilities for proxying them makes me scared for the poor Zergs!
The more I think about the replicator stupid thing, the less I like it. It's actually almost insulting. I'd rather have a Protoss unit.
On October 23 2011 10:43 TheBlueMeaner wrote: Is it me or the swarm thing looks horridly underpowered? what the hell, in the video they burrow like 10 of them, and every 5 minutes, it spews some tiny hydralisks. Is it me or does it seem like it would be freakingly useless against stimmed marines? the locusts are soooo slow, for sure if the swarm lord is to do its true purpose it should have some sort of explosive damage when it dies a la baneling. That would for sure break siege lines, and for sure freak out a protoss deathball. Right now its just a gimmicky unit..
It isn't meant for killing stimmed marines, it's meant to break a turtling Terran or Turtling Protoss.
You're trying to use it the way Siege Tanks are used and it's not really for that. Zerg already has plenty of splash damage and is gaining a new ability on the viper specifically designed for helping to kill marines.
It'll be a good defensive unit, and a good unit for sieging up bases.
It still seems like the only use it would have is against tanks because THEY deal the splash damage. How about protoss deathballs? you just forcefield the little buggers and lol over the swarm lords.
It needs something to deter people from moving into an area. Little hydralisks every 5 minutes just isnt enough. In the demostration video the little hydras kill 1 bunker in the duration of the whole video. Have you seen the other demostration videos? the terran units pretty much f0ck up masses of units they engage...
First of all. Demonstration videos are specifically designed to make the unit look good. We don't know exactly how well each of these units are going to perform yet, the game isn't even in beta yet. Basing ANYTHING off the demonstration videos is akin to pure theorycrafting.
That said.
The Swarm Host to me seems like a ground version of a Brood Lord. It's useful for all the same reasons the Broodlord is useful for but doesn't have the disadvantage of being able to be picked off by Vikings or Void Rays.
Its a very nice counter for Siege Tanks whos targetting AI gets bugged out by the damn things and also provides probably a midgame alternative to broodlords for a turtling player that a Zerg can't break.
It's a Siege Unit that doesn't require Spire Tech to use, and isn't countered by Anti Air units, since one of the most difficult things to do as a Zerg player is to actually breach fortified positions I can't see why this unit combined with possibly the Viper doesn't excite you.
First off you do know that void rays can shoot down at swarm hosts right?...
Ok swarm host do not function like ground broodlords, when a broodlord spawns a broodling it deals damage in the process so even if the broodling dies instantly there is still damage being dealt. Swarm host works more like infested terrans that are auto cast and have a cooldown instead of mana requirement.
Who knows how the final version of this unit will function and how usefull it will be, we don't even know how it is produced, but as it stands right now I don't like, I would take a lurker over it any day.
On October 23 2011 11:26 CaptainFwiffo wrote: I just imagine huge balance problems with the shredder... I mean the fact that Terran has to worry about counterattacks when they move out is A GOOD THING. It's part of the balance of the game. And all the possibilities for proxying them makes me scared for the poor Zergs!
The more I think about the replicator stupid thing, the less I like it. It's actually almost insulting. I'd rather have a Protoss unit.
Just imagine in the late game how impossible it's going to be to attack Terran expansions without committing your entire army to killing it...
2 Shredders a PF and some Missile turrets and Terran has almost a perfectly defended expansion.
On October 23 2011 11:26 CaptainFwiffo wrote: I just imagine huge balance problems with the shredder... I mean the fact that Terran has to worry about counterattacks when they move out is A GOOD THING. It's part of the balance of the game. And all the possibilities for proxying them makes me scared for the poor Zergs!
The more I think about the replicator stupid thing, the less I like it. It's actually almost insulting. I'd rather have a Protoss unit.
Just imagine in the late game how impossible it's going to be to attack Terran expansions without committing your entire army to killing it...
2 Shredders a PF and some Missile turrets and Terran has almost a perfectly defended expansion.
Just like the poll shows, protoss is getting shafted again. Somehow blizzard finds mass zealots to be a major issue and makes a hard counter but doesn't agree with the much more common perception that protoss struggles against bio. None of the new protoss units appear to have much potential. I like the new terran and zerg unit a lot, althought I'm afraid that the ground broodlord will become as hit and miss as the broodlord. Basically a unit that makes constant units can only do 1 of 2 things, own everything or die and do nothing.
On October 23 2011 11:28 1Eris1 wrote: Protoss players are so negative -.-.
Honestly guys. lets wait till these units actually come out okay?
Would you people stop using that God-damn emoticon?
Aside from the questionable utility value of the proposed Protoss units (i.e. none), what really bothers me is the fact that Blizzard are removing two of the coolest units in the game - the carrier and the mothership, and replacing them with units which just aren't particularly exciting from either a player or a spectator's perspective. Even the Tempest, which, admittedly, looks cool, seems like an A-move unit which is designed to counter a unit which was never a problem for Protoss anyway (the muta).
Aside from that, one has to question how units like the 'replicator' and the 'super thor' even fit into the Starcraft lore. I was under the impression that the Thor was introduced in the first place - as opposed to the Odin - precisely because it was smaller and thus had more utility on the battlefield. As for the replicator - the Protoss deliberately using inferior technology from other races? Seems highly unlikely.
What we really need are a bunch of units which could be potential game changers - like the Reaver. Basically units which are both high-risk but also high-reward - allowing for comebacks when one player has the skill to micro them effectively.
Tempest is a great addition to the death ball. AOE on the ground AND air? LOL zerg tears incoming.
I do like that they are allowing it to be something you want to mass so that going stargate first doesn't mean you need to immediately tech switch out of it. It might be worth making a fleet beacon and continue on the path of stargate play instead of doing a U-turn and going straight for colossus or HT.
Replicator = dumb, gimmicky, hard to balance, and just another version of mind control without actually insta-killing the enemy unit.
Oracle... this is our new raider unit?
Protoss got the short end of the stick on this one. This on top of removing 2 units, one being a long beloved unit that many a starcrafter was wishing would be made useful (carrier).
On October 23 2011 11:28 1Eris1 wrote: Protoss players are so negative -.-.
Honestly guys. lets wait till these units actually come out okay?
While it's true we need to wait to see how things pan out. One thing that is true is that while the new protoss units don't add to the deathball, they certainly don't fix the deathball. The only thing that might fix it is that mass recall back to base- maybe. So even if all the new protoss units pan out. Essentially we'll have the Oracles wandering around making bubbles and the 1a deathball roaming around the map. At this point, it doesn't look like Blizzard is willing to make the necessary overhaul, but would rather tinker with stuff on the side.
I'm very sad we lost the carrier and kept the collosi.
i wonder how long theyve been thinking about Protoss' lack of air AoE as an issue? Im interested to see how the Tempest works out, but why didnt they continue tinkering with the Phoenix overload ability? It was IN the game Phoenix Overload
I can imagine shredder contains vs Zerg. Just plop down a few shredders outside a Zerg's base and bam they can't leave till they amass enough roaches or have muta's
On October 23 2011 11:49 OokeyIkky wrote: i wonder how long theyve been thinking about Protoss' lack of air AoE as an issue? Im interested to see how the Tempest works out, but why didnt they continue tinkering with the Phoenix overload ability? It was IN the game Phoenix Overload
I don't know what their thinking is. They could've solved the late game mass muta vs protoss by tweaking the phoenix a bit.
But I do see potential in the tempest. Giving it a superior air to air attack should force a ground to air counter. The primary problem with carriers isn't the carrier, but the fact that vikings and corruptors exist. A massive air to air AOE attack would destroy those units.
Edit: Just spewing some speculation out. I could be dead wrong. Sorry if it comes out as long winded diarreha of the mouth rage fest. It probably is. I'm a skeptic by nature.
I feel like the new units and abilities are just a cacophony of stuff that can really be abused or are weaker than they seem. Lets start of with the obvious: These units are taking place of Lurkers, Defiliers, Firebats, Goliaths and Reavers -- it seems like they're almost ashamed to reintroduce old-standbys back so they have to make some kind of iteration upon it. Its like Diablo's Necromancer --> Witch Doctor crysis.
Second off they're not really filling the holes as well as they think. The Swarm Host uses melee units. Combine that with the number of melee units (Zerglings, Banelings, Ultras, Broodlings) and you have a fuckload of pathing problems that are still a pain in the ass. Considering the delay, a couple marines and a scan might still clean that up easily. The Viper seems cool but I have to hold back my enthusiasm a tad. Because its a new detector, the overseer is going to be cut? First thing comes to mind is if this this a Spire unit. Zerg players might be stuck with some periods without a good detection standby. Having another tech building altogether will be tricky as well because of how simple it could be for any race to focus fire down this tech and the evo chamber.
Terran again feels like they're getting a sweet deal. They get a sweet multipupose units and with some abusable abilities. Trade off is that they look like they're from Command & Conquer. Oh well, being able to setup shredders in enemy mineral lines is going to be hilarious and funny.
The replicant is stupid and potentially abusable -- its a great way to stop seige busters. Ghosts trying to break your line, replicate and EMP. Ultralisk bearing down on your mech force? Replicate and prevent the bust. Oracle seems like a poormans Arbiter/reaver. Tempest seems like a solid improvement for the Carrier. My only dissapointment is that there really isn't a good ground unit in the bunch.
Battle hellion - Holy crap they made one of the most devestating harrassment units viable in a straight up fight? I hate it and I want it to go away.
Shredder - I saw the videos somebody posted on page 5 and this is going to all but negate zergling runbys, and combine it with a turret and those burrow-move banelings people are terrified of will not be an issue. I do like it though, it seems like Blizz are pushing mech really hard and this helps with the mobility issue
Warhound - Appears to be a TvT and TvP changer, its really good against tanks and most Protoss units, and I like the idea of something to tech into from marauders, instead of sticking with bio all game.
Viper - Pretty sick unit, dark swarm (or whatever they call it) might actually make marines useless late-game ZvT, and boy do i hope this is the case. Not sure if it comes out early enough to replace the overseer in providing detection, but we dont know what tech it requires yet so we'll see. Its unit pull ability seems awesome with its range and utility
Swarm host - Spawns locusts way too slowly, having said that locusts themselves are waaaay too good. If Terran or Protoss doesnt have a large enough army to kill ALL of the locusts before they reach the them, they are going to be devestated. I think it should spawn weaker locusts, a lot faster. Just my personal opinion.
Replicant - Lol wtf. All I have to say really. Unless you want to replicate a drone, build a hatchery, make more drones, build more hatcheries, climb the Zerg tech tree, then remax on pure roach in true Zerg fashion, I dont see how it will be usefull. And if you do want to do that, go play Zerg ffs.
Oracle - Cool unit, moves pretty quick and could be quite annoying, especially to Zerg seeing as they only need to have one building negated to shut down an entire area of tech. Late game PvZ could be good at preventing tech and production when Zerg loses mobility with infestor broodlord (or whatever the new composition will be O.o)
Tempest - Here Protoss have another powerful, high tech, expensive unit that wont be used because of how high tech and expensive it is. That is all
Overall, there will probably a lot more micro involved in HotS than WoL, unless you play Protoss. Fuck you Protoss, signed Blizzard
Disclaimer: I play Terran and Zerg, and I believe Protoss benefits the least in HotS
On October 23 2011 12:15 HystericaLaughter wrote: Warhound - Appears to be a TvT and TvP changer, its really good against tanks and most Protoss units, and I like the idea of something to tech into from marauders, instead of sticking with bio all game.
So basically a marauder with an AOE air attack built from a factory. Battle helions a-move own zealots. And the warhound owns stalkers and anything else plus a AOE air attack (possibly only to light). Bio already owns the shit out of protoss infantry. In fact, EVERYTHING owns the shit out of gateway units. Why the hell would you make it EASIER? Have they completely lost touch? I know they spoke of making protoss gateway stronger in general (they talked about better forge upgrades, cheaper, etc.)
On October 23 2011 12:08 Rorschach wrote: Why don't they give back the arbiter as an air caster for toss instead of the silly overseer that wasn't working out for zerg?
Feels like Blizzard put next to no thought into the toss units......
On the contrary i think they put too much though into it, they want to come up with new ideas at all costs. And yeah sure the units are new ideas, too bad they're horrible.
Dustin Browder shows he has absolutely no idea what makes a good RTS game. But what does it matter when his customers doesn't either, they'll buy it because there's a bunch of shiny new "cool" units.
Browder was the lead designer on HotS, which you know, everyone here is still playing, and which has caused the western e-sports scene to explode in a way no other game has come close to doing. I think he knows a little bit more than you about how to design a great game, given that he, you know, already did it. I know he worked on C&C earlier and has stupid catchphrases like "terrible terrible damage" so he's easy to hate on, but the fact is SC2 was hands down the best RTS released since the original BW, and has had an impact on Western e-sports that goes so far beyond any other game.
I don't understand whey they felt it was necessary to introduce the warhound into the game...they already have a unit that does everything they want the warhound to do and it's called the Goliath. Just bring that back and tweak it, jeez.
On October 23 2011 12:23 emc wrote: I think it would be cooler to remove replicator and bring back dark archons. Make dts viable and dark archon could just have mind control like in BW.
YES. And bring back Maelstrom. Seriously, there are already so many good units they could draw on from BW that fulfill those exact roles they're looking for.
On October 23 2011 12:08 Rorschach wrote: Why don't they give back the arbiter as an air caster for toss instead of the silly overseer that wasn't working out for zerg?
Feels like Blizzard put next to no thought into the toss units......
On the contrary i think they put too much though into it, they want to come up with new ideas at all costs. And yeah sure the units are new ideas, too bad they're horrible.
Toss looses Carriers and Motherships and gets two "new" units that are badly designed AND a super expensive Corsair that comes way too late in the game for dealing Mutas.......
A unit that mimics other units? virtually no thought to come up with that....
Oracle? Its a recycled overseer with a better contaminate (in the beta overseers could gunk mineral lines) and a abilty to watch buildings for 2 mins? So boring and virtually no thought into it......
Like the new Terran units, warhound looks shit though. All three are designed to make Mech more viable in many situations which generally is a good thing imho. Thor change is bad though, just dont like the concept of a hero unit in the game.
I like the Viper. It adds a lot to zerg gameplay, not yet sold on that hook ability though. Broodhost is kinda okay, but they srsly have to adjust the spawnrate. Hate the new corrupter ability, hope it wont make it into release.
Oracle might be good, dont want to comment on that too much until we see it in the hands of good players to see what possibilities there are with it. Should replace the "looking into a building" ability for something more useful though.
Hate the replicantunit...will be pretty hard to balance all the different situations possible with this unit and i dislike the idea in general.
Hate the Tempest idea, i think its a pretty useless Unit. Would have prefered a fleetbeacon upgrade for phoenix to deal with (light) air better, probably like a little splash added in there or something. Then tweak carriermicro and make it generally viable again.
I like the removal of the mothership, but i would have prefered the addition of the arbiter instead of giving the nexus defensive recall only.
Overall these new units/changes won't deal with the current problems the protoss player have at the moment.
On October 23 2011 12:36 Yosen3002 wrote: Like the new Terran units, warhound looks shit though. All three are designed to make Mech more viable in many situations which generally is a good thing imho. Thor change is bad though, just dont like the concept of a hero unit in the game.
I like the Viper. It adds a lot to zerg gameplay, not yet sold on that hook ability though. Broodhost is kinda okay, but they srsly have to adjust the spawnrate. Hate the new corrupter ability, hope it wont make it into release.
Oracle might be good, dont want to comment on that too much until we see it in the hands of good players to see what possibilities there are with it.
Hate the replicantunit...will be pretty hard to balance all the different situations possible with this unit and i dislike the idea in general.
Hate the Tempest idea, i think its a pretty useless Unit. Would have prefered a fleetbeacon upgrade for phoenix to deal with (light) air better, probably like a little splash added in there or something. Then tweak carriermicro and make it generally viable again.
I like the removal of the mothership, but i would have prefered the addition of the arbiter instead of giving the nexus defensive recall only.
Your last two ideas are brilliant.... PXH that actually deal with mutas AND fix carriers (like they buffed Ultras and have consistently helped BCs out)
Also nexi recall will prob get nerfed to hell... Just replace the stupid oracle with an arbiter or even a raven like caster and toss would be tickled pink..........
Dustin Browder shows he has absolutely no idea what makes a good RTS game. But what does it matter when his customers doesn't either, they'll buy it because there's a bunch of shiny new "cool" units.
Browder was the lead designer on HotS, which you know, everyone here is still playing, and which has caused the western e-sports scene to explode in a way no other game has come close to doing. I think he knows a little bit more than you about how to design a great game, given that he, you know, already did it. I know he worked on C&C earlier and has stupid catchphrases like "terrible terrible damage" so he's easy to hate on, but the fact is SC2 was hands down the best RTS released since the original BW, and has had an impact on Western e-sports that goes so far beyond any other game.
SC2 got a headstart in e-sports because of its predecessor. If this game had been released with the name red alert 4 instead of starcraft 2 the game would never have been where it is today.
SC2 got a headstart in e-sports because of its predecessor. If this game had been released with the name red alert 4 instead of starcraft 2 the game would never have been where it is today.
and if it hadn't been a good game in its own right, it never would have taken off the way it has.
seriously, the number of western fans who watched BW was miniscule compared to the number who watch SC2, so how do you explain all those spectators, all those fans crowding the MLGs?
if it had all been BW nostalgia, the game would have launched big and faded fast. Instead, the opposite has happened--the competitive scene just keeps growing and growing. That doesn't happen with games that aren't good, competitive, spectator-friendly games in their own right.
Dustin Browder shows he has absolutely no idea what makes a good RTS game. But what does it matter when his customers doesn't either, they'll buy it because there's a bunch of shiny new "cool" units.
Browder was the lead designer on HotS, which you know, everyone here is still playing, and which has caused the western e-sports scene to explode in a way no other game has come close to doing. I think he knows a little bit more than you about how to design a great game, given that he, you know, already did it. I know he worked on C&C earlier and has stupid catchphrases like "terrible terrible damage" so he's easy to hate on, but the fact is SC2 was hands down the best RTS released since the original BW, and has had an impact on Western e-sports that goes so far beyond any other game.
I would say the explosion of esports is simply due to ee han timing of Blizzard bringing out SC2 just when the infrastructure to support esports had stabilized. Very similar to the timing of internet infrastructure in Korea and BW.
Also BW was so great, that even if you made it a lot worse, it would still be the best modern RTS to date. SC2 has many problems, and Blizzard has completely failed to address those problems.
What are these problems?
Ball vs Ball: The new units have not only not addressed these problems, they have encouraged it.
The Battle Hellion is now just a 1-a unit with your tanks rather than kiting your hellions around to do as much damage as possible until your tanks are ready to take on the rest.
The Shredder: A terribly terribly boring version of the spider mine. Not only that, but it not only mitigates the need for squad based action, it discourages it. Say goodbye to ling run-bys (and a squad of marines defending it), and say hello to more ball vs ball.
The only attempt to stop this has been the oracle, which is the laughing stock of the entire protoss community.
Strategic play: Because of how easy it is to 1-a your army and win in many situations. What you get is a tightening of viable compositions and openers. I mean yes TvZ is awesome, but you don't see a lot of variety in unit composition (this is not the same as seeing lots of different units), TvP is even worse.
Tactical play: What does the Swarm Host do that is better or more exciting than the lurker?
Its basically a siege unit, designed to take out siege tanks (AKA A GROUND BROODLORD). DO WE REALLY NEED MORE UNITS THAT COUNTER SIEGE TANKS BLIZZARD??!!!! Blizzard does not know what map control is, period. A lurker on top of a ramp that can stop an infinite amount of marines, that is map control. Needing 10 of these swarm hosts just to protect your base from a couple of medivacs dropping marines, that is not map control.
SC2 got a headstart in e-sports because of its predecessor. If this game had been released with the name red alert 4 instead of starcraft 2 the game would never have been where it is today.
and if it hadn't been a good game in its own right, it never would have taken off the way it has.
seriously, the number of western fans who watched BW was miniscule compared to the number who watch SC2, so how do you explain all those spectators, all those fans crowding the MLGs?
if it had all been BW nostalgia, the game would have launched big and faded fast. Instead, the opposite has happened--the competitive scene just keeps growing and growing. That doesn't happen with games that aren't good, competitive, spectator-friendly games in their own right.
Even outside of the BW community a lot of people considered BW the epitome of RTS games, especially if you were competitive. But it was too hard for your average player and lot of people felt they came into it too late. So they waited for SC2.
SC2 got a headstart in e-sports because of its predecessor. If this game had been released with the name red alert 4 instead of starcraft 2 the game would never have been where it is today.
and if it hadn't been a good game in its own right, it never would have taken off the way it has.
seriously, the number of western fans who watched BW was miniscule compared to the number who watch SC2, so how do you explain all those spectators, all those fans crowding the MLGs?
if it had all been BW nostalgia, the game would have launched big and faded fast. Instead, the opposite has happened--the competitive scene just keeps growing and growing. That doesn't happen with games that aren't good, competitive, spectator-friendly games in their own right.
Umm if its so much bigger than BW ever was, then why aren't we seeing 120,000 spectators at a Starcraft grand final? MLG has a bunch of games, not everyone is there for Starcraft.
You said western, okay fine, but why does that matter? The reason the west never took on e-sports has a lot more to do with the internet infrastructure of the time, korea had it, the US didn't, but they do now.
I think they should have added more to the psionic tech tree rather than the robo tech tree. If your not going to add KA then atleast make temp tech more viable and versatile considering the new additions to zerg. I still think the idea of a tempest is horrible, can't mutas just magic box them and with hydra speed increase they might be pretty bad. They should make the colossus a hovering unit and get rid of its legs to make it look more badass.
I think the toss units are going to be very difficult t balance without making them almost useless. However, the new abilities could be insane. Getting a nice defensive ability for the nexus will allow for some fast expands to be more viable. Getting recall though...that is going to be fun late game.
On October 23 2011 12:36 Yosen3002 wrote: Like the new Terran units, warhound looks shit though. All three are designed to make Mech more viable in many situations which generally is a good thing imho. Thor change is bad though, just dont like the concept of a hero unit in the game.
I like the Viper. It adds a lot to zerg gameplay, not yet sold on that hook ability though. Broodhost is kinda okay, but they srsly have to adjust the spawnrate. Hate the new corrupter ability, hope it wont make it into release.
Oracle might be good, dont want to comment on that too much until we see it in the hands of good players to see what possibilities there are with it.
Hate the replicantunit...will be pretty hard to balance all the different situations possible with this unit and i dislike the idea in general.
Hate the Tempest idea, i think its a pretty useless Unit. Would have prefered a fleetbeacon upgrade for phoenix to deal with (light) air better, probably like a little splash added in there or something. Then tweak carriermicro and make it generally viable again.
I like the removal of the mothership, but i would have prefered the addition of the arbiter instead of giving the nexus defensive recall only.
Your last two ideas are brilliant.... PXH that actually deal with mutas AND fix carriers (like they buffed Ultras and have consistently helped BCs out)
Also nexi recall will prob get nerfed to hell... Just replace the stupid oracle with an arbiter or even a raven like caster and toss would be tickled pink..........
Yea I dont get that. With some units they try so freakin hard to make them work but with others "nope, that unit is (insert stupid excuse here) so were gonna replace it with essentially the same thing just not as effective". Its so enfuriating.
those of you knocking SC2 and crediting all its success to BW still haven't answered why the spectator scene is growing rather than shrinking. If the only reason anyone bought SC2 was out of nostalgia, the exact opposite would have happened, it would have quickly faded and died. Instead, it seems like every month there are more tournaments, the tournaments are getting bigger, and more spectators tune in. That doesn't happen unless a game in its own right has something that keeps people coming back and tuning in.
One of the major problems with HOTS is that it doesn't feel like much of an expansion, but more of a redo of the game. An expansion should try to solve problems with small additions to existing units and add in 1 or 2 new units for each race.
Carriers are classic protoss units. I remember in BW just massing them with arbiters and watching the minimap turn green. They are what I think of when I think protoss. Removing them for a unit whose role could be filled by the phoenix seems silly to me. In the original beta of WoL, the phoenix had an ability (i think called overcharge) that did one burst of splash damage fire. Adding this ability onto the phoenix is (i think) a much better solution to the mass muta problem. It also fits with the idea of an expansion, instead of removing and replacing, it expands or adds on.
One of the cool things about BW is that units and abilities are heavily dependent on position. For example, Dark swarm could be used agains the zerg if they were forced out of it and other player could hide in it from hydras. Stasis affected any unit, storm affected any unit, etc. I think a good change would be to allow banelings to hurt their own zerg units when they splash. It only makes sense, with the acid splashing everything around it, and it would require the zerg to be careful using banelings with zerglings. In the same vein, the shredder seems like a cool idea, and if it required activation/deactivation or had a small delay before powering up when it senses enemy units (so the units are not in the field for the entire time, and still had some time to retreat before taking damage), then it can still allow zergling runbys while still maintaining its purpose.
Finally, the oracle has some potential. The oracle does need to do more for its cost, maybe something like keeping phase shift how it is (or lowering its timer to like 30 secs), replacing the building read ability with something actually useful, and making the mineral shields only disappear from damage, and not from time. Having the shields remain indefinitely requires the opponent to react to it or suffer at least some sort of permanent damage that the other races can get from killing workers. If the oracle can cast these while most of the attention is focused on a major engagement, it is similar to killing workers with a banshee or mutas while pushing.
One last thing, now that the mothership is gone, protoss no longer has a cloaking field unit, and a "mass disable"(stasis, vortex) ability (unless the oracle can do this with mineral shields on units, please clarify). These abilities seem like important protoss abilities, please return them somehow.
tl;dr: 1. Make HOTS more "expansion-like" and less "new game" like 2. Bring back carriers and make them useful. Add the overcharge ability back to phoenix to fight mass muta. 3. Shredder rework, and banelings should splash friendly units 4. Oracle rework 5. Protoss needs a cloacking field unit and a "mass-disable" spell.
On October 23 2011 13:13 awesomoecalypse wrote: those of you knocking SC2 and crediting all its success to BW still haven't answered why the spectator scene is growing rather than shrinking. If the only reason anyone bought SC2 was out of nostalgia, the exact opposite would have happened, it would have quickly faded and died. Instead, it seems like every month there are more tournaments, the tournaments are getting bigger, and more spectators tune in. That doesn't happen unless a game in its own right has something that keeps people coming back and tuning in.
Is the Sc2 scene growing that much? I recall a short time a go there was data available which showed the number of active players in each region, and it has been dropping quite significantly each season... I will see if I can find it.
Maybe the spectating side has been growing, but I don't think the player base has, at least not for 1v1...
SC2 got a headstart in e-sports because of its predecessor. If this game had been released with the name red alert 4 instead of starcraft 2 the game would never have been where it is today.
and if it hadn't been a good game in its own right, it never would have taken off the way it has.
seriously, the number of western fans who watched BW was miniscule compared to the number who watch SC2, so how do you explain all those spectators, all those fans crowding the MLGs?
if it had all been BW nostalgia, the game would have launched big and faded fast. Instead, the opposite has happened--the competitive scene just keeps growing and growing. That doesn't happen with games that aren't good, competitive, spectator-friendly games in their own right.
Umm if its so much bigger than BW ever was, then why aren't we seeing 120,000 spectators at a Starcraft grand final? MLG has a bunch of games, not everyone is there for Starcraft.
You said western, okay fine, but why does that matter? The reason the west never took on e-sports has a lot more to do with the internet infrastructure of the time, korea had it, the US didn't, but they do now.
MLG has 3 games, and ~70% at least of the people are there for SC2. (At least at Orlando, I was there)
But anyways, not a huge fan of these changes overall. The only ones that fill an obvious weakness are the terran ones, and terran was allready the most complete race.
Is the Sc2 scene growing that much? I recall a short time a go there was data available which showed the number of active players in each region, and it has been dropping quite significantly each season... I will see if I can find it.
Maybe the spectating side has been growing, but I don't think the player base has, at least not for 1v1...
The spectating side has definitely been growing. Every major tournament has been showing increased viewership over time, and there are more tournaments now than ever. Compare the most recent MLG to the first one after launch, and the growth couldn't be more obvious.
And as regards BW, its not like PC bangs were still full of Starcraft players years and years after launch--some people did, but the "everyone plays BW" phase didn't last forever by any means in Korea. Where the famed longevity of the game came into play was on the proscene side--more and more people kept tuning in, and the number of spectators/size of tournaments kept growing, which is exactly what is happening with SC2.
Meh, I think people are only disappointed about the Protoss units because they cannot see a clear way to use them every game.
Really the only two abilities that you would use in the same way from game to game are the Oracles Tech Spying and Mineral blocking, which is kinda underwhelming if you just stop there.
But the strongest abilities, Phase Shift and Replicating will almost undoubtedly used differently from game to game. There is no standard way of incorporating them into your play but rather abilities that require game sense and knowledge to truly maximize the potential.
At the end of the day, numbers can be tweaked, but the concept of the unit is what really matters. IMO, I love the Oracle and the Replicant--there is no easy way to use them and there will always be a situation in a game where they have the potential to do a lot of damage. They are units designed to seize opportunities and reward intelligent players .
Blizzard went overboard on the "protoss needs a harras unit" idea. If you look at terran and zerg, the way they harras is with marine drops and mutalisks. Both of these units, in addition to being great harrass, also play key roles in battles too. Meanwhile, the oracle is a purely harass unit that can't do anything other than block minerals and stop production for a little bit. It is completely useless in an actual fight, and it can't even kill scvs. Please, give protoss a mobile harassing unit that can also be used in an actual fight. Not phoenix, which need to use graviton beam to be useful, and especially not oracles.
For once the SC2 community agrees with me in just about every question. I hope they seriously reconsider the toss units they are adding, because its really going to hurt the game as a whole. The mass recall will be rather baller though, I can see that getting a lot of use. Cheap immortals (damage and strength reduced a bit to fit the new cost) and zealot speed would go a long way, much more than three new air units will.
On October 23 2011 13:26 kofman wrote: Blizzard went overboard on the "protoss needs a harras unit" idea. If you look at terran and zerg, the way they harras is with marine drops and mutalisks. Both of these units, in addition to being great harrass, also play key roles in battles too. Meanwhile, the oracle is a purely harass unit that can't do anything other than block minerals and stop production for a little bit. It is completely useless in an actual fight, and it can't even kill scvs. Please, give protoss a mobile harassing unit that can also be used in an actual fight. Not phoenix, which need to use graviton beam to be useful, and especially not oracles.
So what if it can't kill SCVs
Given the right situation, doing something like disabling all of the Terrans Starports before a Colossus push is stronger than killing 10+ SCVs.
People seem to have this ridiculous idea that the only good way of harassing is worker harassing. I think this is a concept that will change come HOTS and the introduction of the Oracle.
I don't think people realize how much damage is actually inflicted if you stop your opponent from making specific units for a period of time and how bad of a position it can put them if you are smart about it.
Sure it won't be the same as having them slowly die due to lack of economy, but being forced to build but Zealots for the next minute and a half in a PvP can be scarier than losing half your probes.
It is even more scary when used with a tactical mind, worker harass slows down production but Phase Shifting completely limits production to a screeching halt. You can easily see the Oracle being used in ways beyond what a typical hellion can do.
Something like hindering your opponents Stalker count via Cybernetics and using that time to regain Air control, stopping their early medivac production off their Reacot/Starport, forcing whatever early push they had in mind to come far too late to deal any damage. The only problem is though that there is nothing standard you can do every game, what you choose to harass will most likely be different every game
On October 23 2011 11:45 Ownos wrote: Tempest is a great addition to the death ball. AOE on the ground AND air? LOL zerg tears incoming.
I do like that they are allowing it to be something you want to mass so that going stargate first doesn't mean you need to immediately tech switch out of it. It might be worth making a fleet beacon and continue on the path of stargate play instead of doing a U-turn and going straight for colossus or HT.
Replicator = dumb, gimmicky, hard to balance, and just another version of mind control without actually insta-killing the enemy unit.
Oracle... this is our new raider unit?
Protoss got the short end of the stick on this one. This on top of removing 2 units, one being a long beloved unit that many a starcrafter was wishing would be made useful (carrier).
I'd still take Storm over the Tempest, it's much more convenient and robust, and like the Tempest's apparently intended role you can just leave a few ht's behind. One nice touch as far as I know is that I *guess* you wouldn't need to make blind immortals vs a muta ling zerg who will remax on roaches, which a strong air to ground unit obviously does well against. Other than that, Tempests only serve to reward inferior mechanics.
Blizzard: If you guys love the aoe ground function of colossus, then you'll LOVE Tempests!
On October 23 2011 11:45 Ownos wrote: Tempest is a great addition to the death ball. AOE on the ground AND air? LOL zerg tears incoming.
I do like that they are allowing it to be something you want to mass so that going stargate first doesn't mean you need to immediately tech switch out of it. It might be worth making a fleet beacon and continue on the path of stargate play instead of doing a U-turn and going straight for colossus or HT.
Replicator = dumb, gimmicky, hard to balance, and just another version of mind control without actually insta-killing the enemy unit.
Oracle... this is our new raider unit?
Protoss got the short end of the stick on this one. This on top of removing 2 units, one being a long beloved unit that many a starcrafter was wishing would be made useful (carrier).
I'd still take Storm over the Tempest, it's much more convenient and robust, and like the Tempest's apparently intended role you can just leave a few ht's behind. Tempests only serves to reward inferior mechanics.
Storm does a lot of FF damage when fighting Muta and is super inefficient at times. It can be frustrating tryin to Storm muta who just keep flying away constantly.
The Tempest rewards Inferior mechanics the same way a Thor or an Infestor rewards inferior mechanics. Yes, if Terran didn't have the Thor they still might be a way for them to deal with Mutalisks with some good use of Marines, pressure timings, etc etc but at the end of the day, at least for the sake of game design--there SHOULD be a unit that is considered a standard response.
It is the same way for Protoss. Right now they get by with Templars and Blink, but there is no clear way to deal with muta. Some Protoss get the urge to kill the opponent Zerg the moment they see Muta, others like to build up a large three base army and get ready for the oncoming base trade scenario and a few Protoss I've soon also like to go the Archon Templar route, trying to weather the Mutalisk phase and force a somewhat standard game
But really, aside from getting Blink, virtually every other Protoss handles muta different, that is because just as David Kim said in the design panel, when your opponent has a LOT of muta, Protoss doesn't actually have a straight forward means of responding to them
Replicants could be awesome if they can switch back to Replicant form. Imagine having a bunch of replicants and turning them all to Phoenixes to ward off Mutalisk harass, then turning them into Immortals when you intend to push out... If you can keep the Replicants' versatility, then it could be an awesome unit. But if it's a one-time transformation, then it's really hardly worth getting.
It's too early to judge for the Oracle, as far as I'm concerned.
As for the Tempest, it sounds something like a flying Colossus. Given that the Colossus is already the source of all evil, I can't say I'm especially eager to see it.
On October 23 2011 10:29 BandonBanshee wrote: The swarm host is shit. Zerg needed something with defensive capabilities that could hold ground......this does neither. It spawns 2 visible broodlings every like 20 seconds and doesn't do splash damage. I actually cant think of scenarios where this unit is good.
Ugh im tired of shit posts like this. I take it your referring to this video.
Firstly they are locusts and they do 16 every .87 seconds, with 90 hp. Much stronger than brood lings. Also they shoot 4 at a time, not 2.
2nd Look at the way they are stupidly arranged that's literally the most ineffective, way to siege that natural. All the locusts are clumped up taking the maximum amount of splash they can from 5 tanks. yet they are still making progress....
If a player were to arrange them in an arc that would reduce the splash taken, and increase their effectiveness.
Also your not obligated to burrow them all at once, so you only get a wave every 24 seconds, you can burrow them in halves or thirds, to make a more constant stream of them. Who knows, if the locusts move faster on creep you could have an overlord creeping just before them to accelerate the locusts.
Lastly this isn't a unit you just mass up, and attack with its a support unit for your army, nothing more. Its the kind of unit that helps zerg to over run a position with sheer numbers, just as Z is intend to operate.
Not saying is perfect, but at least try to think of the possibilities before crying to the internet about it.
On October 23 2011 13:51 Mobius_1 wrote: "Like" may not be the best word to use, because I voted "no" for the Zerg options because I'm scared of facing them.
I like the Terran ones, full on mech has always been a bit weak, the additions seem to really complement Siege Tanks.
The Protoss ones seem a bit gimmicky, although they didn't lack direct confrontation units in the first place so the additions are alright.
Protoss has always been a gimmicky race since star 1 so it fits.
On October 23 2011 10:29 BandonBanshee wrote: The swarm host is shit. Zerg needed something with defensive capabilities that could hold ground......this does neither. It spawns 2 visible broodlings every like 20 seconds and doesn't do splash damage. I actually cant think of scenarios where this unit is good.
Firstly they are locusts and they do 16 every .87 seconds, with 90 hp. Much stronger than brood lings. Also they shoot 4 at a time, not 2.
2nd Look at the way they are stupidly arranged that's literally the most ineffective, way to siege that natural. All the locusts are clumped up taking the maximum amount of splash they can from 5 tanks. yet they are still making progress....
If a player were to arrange them in an arc that would reduce the splash taken, and increase their effectiveness.
Also your not obligated to burrow them all at once, so you only get a wave every 24 seconds, you can burrow them in halves or thirds, to make a more constant stream of them. Who knows, if the locusts move faster on creep you could have an overlord creeping just before them to accelerate the locusts.
Lastly this isn't a unit you just mass up, and attack with its a support unit for your army, nothing more. Its the kind of unit that helps zerg to over run a position with sheer numbers, just as Z is intend to operate.
Not saying is perfect, but at least try to think of the possibilities before crying to the internet about it.
Yeah, that video is so underwhelming.
Imagine if the Zerg in that situation had a bunch of Hydras and some creep there. Everytime the Locust spawn he could use them as cover for the Hydralisks to also deal damage and retreat without taking any damage themselves.
IMO, if Zerg just try use it like a Siege tank and expect it to be able to do something by itself then they will fail. But if they use it with the rest of their Zerg Arsenal then it can be incredibly strong.
Remember the old Hydralisk/Spine Crawler pushes? Now imagine the same push but with Swarm Hosts and Hydralisks. Instead of using the Spines and Hydra to force your way into the Protoss base you could use the Locust as cover for the Hydra, force engagements where the opponent has to waste FF's and use them as cover to spread creep and harass with your Hydras with little fear of taking actual damage
"Hey, instead of making protoss a better race and giving them really cool units, how about we just give them a unit that copies the other races. That way, we don't have to be creative and can just blame the protoss players for not using the replicator well!"
On October 23 2011 11:45 Ownos wrote: Tempest is a great addition to the death ball. AOE on the ground AND air? LOL zerg tears incoming.
I do like that they are allowing it to be something you want to mass so that going stargate first doesn't mean you need to immediately tech switch out of it. It might be worth making a fleet beacon and continue on the path of stargate play instead of doing a U-turn and going straight for colossus or HT.
Replicator = dumb, gimmicky, hard to balance, and just another version of mind control without actually insta-killing the enemy unit.
Oracle... this is our new raider unit?
Protoss got the short end of the stick on this one. This on top of removing 2 units, one being a long beloved unit that many a starcrafter was wishing would be made useful (carrier).
I'd still take Storm over the Tempest, it's much more convenient and robust, and like the Tempest's apparently intended role you can just leave a few ht's behind. Tempests only serves to reward inferior mechanics.
Storm does a lot of FF damage when fighting Muta and is super inefficient at times. It can be frustrating tryin to Storm muta who just keep flying away constantly.
The Tempest rewards Inferior mechanics the same way a Thor or an Infestor rewards inferior mechanics. Yes, if Terran didn't have the Thor they still might be a way for them to deal with Mutalisks with some good use of Marines, pressure timings, etc etc but at the end of the day, at least for the sake of game design--there SHOULD be a unit that is considered a standard response.
It is the same way for Protoss. Right now they get by with Templars and Blink, but there is no clear way to deal with muta. Some Protoss get the urge to kill the opponent Zerg the moment they see Muta, others like to build up a large three base army and get ready for the oncoming base trade scenario and a few Protoss I've soon also like to go the Archon Templar route, trying to weather the Mutalisk phase and force a somewhat standard game
But really, aside from getting Blink, virtually every other Protoss handles muta different, that is because just as David Kim said in the design panel, when your opponent has a LOT of muta, Protoss doesn't actually have a straight forward means of responding to them
FF damage is irrelevant. Unless the mutas fly over your mineral line and you decide to storm it, I pretty much expect every HT the muta's fly into to die as it storms, if it's not from the mutalisks themselves. Storm does 80 damage, mutas have 120 hit points. You can whiff a few storms and still wipe them out with plenty left.
Storm is the clear way to deal with mutas, whether its 8 or 40, it's equally effective.
Does the name Gantrithor rings a bell to anyone in the Protoss community? It was Tassadar's ship, with which he killed the freaking Overmind. And, it was a Carrier. The Carrier is one of the symbols of the Protoss race, other than being a really cool idea as for gameplay: fact is that, sadly, as of the current metagame, it has no competitive place. But then you just cut it off? I think this isn't even a thing that should be addressed in an expansion, but on a ordinary game patch.
Same thought goes to the Mothership, which is a good concept, and it had a lot of cool abilities and uses in the development; besides the idea of a uber-unit is cool — I just think every race should have their own unique 1 of a kind uber unit. What they say about: « We feel we have satisfied the uber-unit fetish » with the new Thor, is just bullshit.
All in all, from a mere artistic point of view all the designs of the new units are really bad. Except maybe for the Viper, which is a flying defiler anyways. The Warhound is an SCV on steroids and two out of three protoss units are… …balls? Like sentries with different shapes?
As for the gameplay I really don't get the thought process behind this.
TERRAN:
Did Terran really need any more space controlling units? And doing it cheaply? Besides the Siege Tanks, their inherent ability to wall themselves in, Salvagable Bunkers, Planetary Fortresses, and the Sensor Tower which makes it easier to realize when a counter attack is coming… did they really need anymore? I'm with those who say it's just going to increase the ball-of-death-approach rather than decrease it. Rather, Zergs and Protoss needed some space controlling units, which they currently lack.
What's with the new Hellion? They just didn't feel it right for Terran to micro? It makes damn sense that a freaking alien superhuman cuts you in half with his psi-blades if you engage him in a straight fight. If zerg must give you this "swarming" feeling, Protosses must give you this "overpowering" feeling, I guess.
ZERG:
While the Ultras suffered really badly from pathing problems, it doesn't make any sense that they pop underground, dig really fast and pop out again. Why don't they go superfast underground all the time, then? Besides, it's basically a blink. Perhaps they could have given them a step over other units for DPS kind of inherent ability.
And the Viper is going to VERY CHEAPLY, PERMANENTLY grant detection to ANY unit? Really?
PROTOSS:
I guess the Oracle is a cool concept; might need to be worked on the mechanics, but it's a cool concept (though I LOL'd at the post with the discussion between Artanis and Selendis).
The addition of Nexus abilities are really a cool idea, because, gameplay-wise, it gives you more versatility on what you have to choose. Choosing what to Chronoboost is already a decisive factor in competitive play, this could add some extra flavour.
As for the abilities themselves… meh… I don't know about them.
The Recall makes a lot of sense actually and it is really cool. Though I guess it didn't really ever made much sense to me that I can warp in units in five seconds from other planets, and I can't warp my units around (sure, it costs loads to do it; but we warp from Aiur or Shakuras, which are kind of hidden worlds).
I think what Protoss lack the most is the hit-and-run kind of drop capabilities. Terrans make a lot of Medivacs anyways and they can fit a nice troop inside them; if the drop situation gets tense, they load and run. The same goes for Overlords with ventral sacs and speed (I mean, you're going to have loads of Overlords anyway) and for Nydus Worms. Sure we have Warp Prisms, but when you do drop, aside from the 4 zealots you can reload, you must commit: you can warp from you 7 Gates, but then you cannot go away.
To me, it makes logical sense that units warp in in Pylons power fields (Nexuses don't grant Power). It would be a cool logical upgrade/building to allow you to Recall to any pylon, perhaps at a mineral/gas expense and with, like the Warpgate warp-in animation, and maybe like 12 seconds or so? Really, it sounds OP, but if you think of it I'm basically saying the same thing of a Nydus Worm, except that, instead of JUST HAVING VISION of a place (which is not difficult for Zergs with Overlords) you have to physically build a Pylon.
Besides, we really could use a flying shield battery of sort.
IN SHORT: I think the changes should be oriented to what the peculiar characteristic of a race is. As a Protoss, I think Shields and Warp-In mechanics are something that really defines our race, and that should really be worked on (instead of a replicant as pointed out by many) — that's why I think the Warp Prism is actually a badass idea. Give the Mothership Pylon power, or Shield Regeneration aura, or something. I mean, one should not deal with expansions thinking: « Gee, mass mutas are really an hassle late game for Protosses, we should give them an ANTI-MUTA unit. » (it's their words!)
These things should be fixed in balance patches!
The rest should be ideas that fit well in the lore, and in the uniqueness of each race gameplay.
And also as a last note, I really disagree with people saying we should wait for the units to come out to comment on them. I am 100% sure that, whatever, they'll balance them and the game will work and we'll enjoy it: because of the game awesome mechanics. This is not the point, the point is to make something that makes sense and addresses real issues in a logical way.
On October 23 2011 11:45 Ownos wrote: Tempest is a great addition to the death ball. AOE on the ground AND air? LOL zerg tears incoming.
I do like that they are allowing it to be something you want to mass so that going stargate first doesn't mean you need to immediately tech switch out of it. It might be worth making a fleet beacon and continue on the path of stargate play instead of doing a U-turn and going straight for colossus or HT.
Replicator = dumb, gimmicky, hard to balance, and just another version of mind control without actually insta-killing the enemy unit.
Oracle... this is our new raider unit?
Protoss got the short end of the stick on this one. This on top of removing 2 units, one being a long beloved unit that many a starcrafter was wishing would be made useful (carrier).
I'd still take Storm over the Tempest, it's much more convenient and robust, and like the Tempest's apparently intended role you can just leave a few ht's behind. Tempests only serves to reward inferior mechanics.
Storm does a lot of FF damage when fighting Muta and is super inefficient at times. It can be frustrating tryin to Storm muta who just keep flying away constantly.
The Tempest rewards Inferior mechanics the same way a Thor or an Infestor rewards inferior mechanics. Yes, if Terran didn't have the Thor they still might be a way for them to deal with Mutalisks with some good use of Marines, pressure timings, etc etc but at the end of the day, at least for the sake of game design--there SHOULD be a unit that is considered a standard response.
It is the same way for Protoss. Right now they get by with Templars and Blink, but there is no clear way to deal with muta. Some Protoss get the urge to kill the opponent Zerg the moment they see Muta, others like to build up a large three base army and get ready for the oncoming base trade scenario and a few Protoss I've soon also like to go the Archon Templar route, trying to weather the Mutalisk phase and force a somewhat standard game
But really, aside from getting Blink, virtually every other Protoss handles muta different, that is because just as David Kim said in the design panel, when your opponent has a LOT of muta, Protoss doesn't actually have a straight forward means of responding to them
FF damage is irrelevant. Unless the mutas fly over your mineral line and you decide to storm it, I pretty much expect every HT the muta's fly into to die as it storms, if it's not from the mutalisks themselves. Storm does 80 damage, mutas have 120 hit points. You can whiff a few storms and still wipe them out with plenty left.
Storm is the clear way to deal with mutas, whether its 8 or 40, it's equally effective.
Getting to storm off of 2 bases is the extremely hard part. Believe it or not, stalkers are pretty bad at dealing with mutalisks, even with blink. If you've ever actually played protoss against muta's, if you didn't open blink, and you didn't kill zerg before mutalisk came out, the game gets insanely difficult. You can see this even at the pro level, Muta's often force base trades against protoss, and almost always the zerg wins that. Muta's just aren't a very common opening because there is a timing that can be hit that 99% guarantees a kill. That's the main reason why you don't see them rushed very often vs. Protoss.
On October 23 2011 11:45 Ownos wrote: Tempest is a great addition to the death ball. AOE on the ground AND air? LOL zerg tears incoming.
I do like that they are allowing it to be something you want to mass so that going stargate first doesn't mean you need to immediately tech switch out of it. It might be worth making a fleet beacon and continue on the path of stargate play instead of doing a U-turn and going straight for colossus or HT.
Replicator = dumb, gimmicky, hard to balance, and just another version of mind control without actually insta-killing the enemy unit.
Oracle... this is our new raider unit?
Protoss got the short end of the stick on this one. This on top of removing 2 units, one being a long beloved unit that many a starcrafter was wishing would be made useful (carrier).
I'd still take Storm over the Tempest, it's much more convenient and robust, and like the Tempest's apparently intended role you can just leave a few ht's behind. Tempests only serves to reward inferior mechanics.
Storm does a lot of FF damage when fighting Muta and is super inefficient at times. It can be frustrating tryin to Storm muta who just keep flying away constantly.
The Tempest rewards Inferior mechanics the same way a Thor or an Infestor rewards inferior mechanics. Yes, if Terran didn't have the Thor they still might be a way for them to deal with Mutalisks with some good use of Marines, pressure timings, etc etc but at the end of the day, at least for the sake of game design--there SHOULD be a unit that is considered a standard response.
It is the same way for Protoss. Right now they get by with Templars and Blink, but there is no clear way to deal with muta. Some Protoss get the urge to kill the opponent Zerg the moment they see Muta, others like to build up a large three base army and get ready for the oncoming base trade scenario and a few Protoss I've soon also like to go the Archon Templar route, trying to weather the Mutalisk phase and force a somewhat standard game
But really, aside from getting Blink, virtually every other Protoss handles muta different, that is because just as David Kim said in the design panel, when your opponent has a LOT of muta, Protoss doesn't actually have a straight forward means of responding to them
FF damage is irrelevant. Unless the mutas fly over your mineral line and you decide to storm it, I pretty much expect every HT the muta's fly into to die as it storms, if it's not from the mutalisks themselves. Storm does 80 damage, mutas have 120 hit points. You can whiff a few storms and still wipe them out with plenty left.
Storm is the clear way to deal with mutas, whether its 8 or 40, it's equally effective.
Storm is eventually what you will need, but when there are a lot of Mutas flying around it is hard to get enough to hit every Muta.
I've played enough Archon/Templar against Muta to know that Storm is extremely frustrating to use against Mutalisks, especially when they never ever engage in direct combat, always using hit and run tactics. Sometimes the Muta even kill the Templars you hve lying around before you even get a chance to use them as they swoop by so fast. When the inevitable base trade happens, tring to make every last Storm count and lugging the slow ass Templars around make you want to gouge your eyes out
It is not even on the same level as something like an Infestor or a Thor. Storm also doesn't have the same unforgiving nature as Thors/Fungal for the Zerg.
David Kim was pretty spot on with his points about Mutalisks and Mass air in General against Protoss. Storm is ultimately something you use in combination with other things like Archons and Blink Stalkers to forge a type of response but there is nothing that is close to as easy to use and respond with as an Infestor or Thor for Protoss
I really dont understand why they decided to make a worker friendly unit... i mean seriously in BW protoss just completely obliterated planets when they were infested by zerg. why would they NOW of all times want to be worker friendly? just give us a decent harass unit and all toss would be happy and not some dodgy *worker friendly* unit ==
There's only one unit I'm unsure about right now, and that's the Replicator. I could see it being very overpowered or very underpowered. With the variety of units you could replicate, I'm sure there could end up being balance issues somehow, especially if it's too cheap. But if it is too expensive, then it'll be a waste. Hopefully Blizzard can find a sweet spot for the cost.
The rest of the units I'm mostly happy about. I'm sure that there will be a lot of tweaking done, anyway, so I'm not too worried about units like the Oracle right now. I'll miss the Carrier because it was iconic (albeit not used much), but I'm fine with the Mothership and Overseer being replaced. The Mothership was changed so much and never ended up being interesting, and the Overseer certainly isn't as intriguing as the Viper, which will really change Zerg for the better.
On October 23 2011 11:45 Ownos wrote: Tempest is a great addition to the death ball. AOE on the ground AND air? LOL zerg tears incoming.
I do like that they are allowing it to be something you want to mass so that going stargate first doesn't mean you need to immediately tech switch out of it. It might be worth making a fleet beacon and continue on the path of stargate play instead of doing a U-turn and going straight for colossus or HT.
Replicator = dumb, gimmicky, hard to balance, and just another version of mind control without actually insta-killing the enemy unit.
Oracle... this is our new raider unit?
Protoss got the short end of the stick on this one. This on top of removing 2 units, one being a long beloved unit that many a starcrafter was wishing would be made useful (carrier).
I'd still take Storm over the Tempest, it's much more convenient and robust, and like the Tempest's apparently intended role you can just leave a few ht's behind. Tempests only serves to reward inferior mechanics.
Storm does a lot of FF damage when fighting Muta and is super inefficient at times. It can be frustrating tryin to Storm muta who just keep flying away constantly.
The Tempest rewards Inferior mechanics the same way a Thor or an Infestor rewards inferior mechanics. Yes, if Terran didn't have the Thor they still might be a way for them to deal with Mutalisks with some good use of Marines, pressure timings, etc etc but at the end of the day, at least for the sake of game design--there SHOULD be a unit that is considered a standard response.
It is the same way for Protoss. Right now they get by with Templars and Blink, but there is no clear way to deal with muta. Some Protoss get the urge to kill the opponent Zerg the moment they see Muta, others like to build up a large three base army and get ready for the oncoming base trade scenario and a few Protoss I've soon also like to go the Archon Templar route, trying to weather the Mutalisk phase and force a somewhat standard game
But really, aside from getting Blink, virtually every other Protoss handles muta different, that is because just as David Kim said in the design panel, when your opponent has a LOT of muta, Protoss doesn't actually have a straight forward means of responding to them
FF damage is irrelevant. Unless the mutas fly over your mineral line and you decide to storm it, I pretty much expect every HT the muta's fly into to die as it storms, if it's not from the mutalisks themselves. Storm does 80 damage, mutas have 120 hit points. You can whiff a few storms and still wipe them out with plenty left.
Storm is the clear way to deal with mutas, whether its 8 or 40, it's equally effective.
Getting to storm off of 2 bases is the extremely hard part. Believe it or not, stalkers are pretty bad at dealing with mutalisks, even with blink. If you've ever actually played protoss against muta's, if you didn't open blink, and you didn't kill zerg before mutalisk came out, the game gets insanely difficult. You can see this even at the pro level, Muta's often force base trades against protoss, and almost always the zerg wins that. Muta's just aren't a very common opening because there is a timing that can be hit that 99% guarantees a kill. That's the main reason why you don't see them rushed very often vs. Protoss.
Storm isn't hard at all to grab on 2 base. If you aren't making 8 or more sentries, or colossus, or stargate, or double forging, they're dirt cheap. Believe it or not, stalkers DEAL with low number mutalisks, which is all they need to do until you can get HT's in each base and start pushing. What they DON'T deal well with is the 3-4+ hatch production of speedlings that often accompany mutalisks and crush pushes with out storms to keep them from the stalkers.
They haven't been common until now, within the new meta game, and the fact zergs are finally willing to put a roach warren down just in case.
On October 23 2011 11:45 Ownos wrote: Tempest is a great addition to the death ball. AOE on the ground AND air? LOL zerg tears incoming.
I do like that they are allowing it to be something you want to mass so that going stargate first doesn't mean you need to immediately tech switch out of it. It might be worth making a fleet beacon and continue on the path of stargate play instead of doing a U-turn and going straight for colossus or HT.
Replicator = dumb, gimmicky, hard to balance, and just another version of mind control without actually insta-killing the enemy unit.
Oracle... this is our new raider unit?
Protoss got the short end of the stick on this one. This on top of removing 2 units, one being a long beloved unit that many a starcrafter was wishing would be made useful (carrier).
I'd still take Storm over the Tempest, it's much more convenient and robust, and like the Tempest's apparently intended role you can just leave a few ht's behind. Tempests only serves to reward inferior mechanics.
Storm does a lot of FF damage when fighting Muta and is super inefficient at times. It can be frustrating tryin to Storm muta who just keep flying away constantly.
The Tempest rewards Inferior mechanics the same way a Thor or an Infestor rewards inferior mechanics. Yes, if Terran didn't have the Thor they still might be a way for them to deal with Mutalisks with some good use of Marines, pressure timings, etc etc but at the end of the day, at least for the sake of game design--there SHOULD be a unit that is considered a standard response.
It is the same way for Protoss. Right now they get by with Templars and Blink, but there is no clear way to deal with muta. Some Protoss get the urge to kill the opponent Zerg the moment they see Muta, others like to build up a large three base army and get ready for the oncoming base trade scenario and a few Protoss I've soon also like to go the Archon Templar route, trying to weather the Mutalisk phase and force a somewhat standard game
But really, aside from getting Blink, virtually every other Protoss handles muta different, that is because just as David Kim said in the design panel, when your opponent has a LOT of muta, Protoss doesn't actually have a straight forward means of responding to them
FF damage is irrelevant. Unless the mutas fly over your mineral line and you decide to storm it, I pretty much expect every HT the muta's fly into to die as it storms, if it's not from the mutalisks themselves. Storm does 80 damage, mutas have 120 hit points. You can whiff a few storms and still wipe them out with plenty left.
Storm is the clear way to deal with mutas, whether its 8 or 40, it's equally effective.
Storm is eventually what you will need, but when there are a lot of Mutas flying around it is hard to get enough to hit every Muta.
I've played enough Archon/Templar against Muta to know that Storm is extremely frustrating to use against Mutalisks, especially when they never ever engage in direct combat, always using hit and run tactics. Sometimes the Muta even kill the Templars you hve lying around before you even get a chance to use them as they swoop by so fast. When the inevitable base trade happens, tring to make every last Storm count and lugging the slow ass Templars around make you want to gouge your eyes out
It is not even on the same level as something like an Infestor or a Thor. Storm also doesn't have the same unforgiving nature as Thors/Fungal for the Zerg.
David Kim was pretty spot on with his points about Mutalisks and Mass air in General against Protoss. Storm is ultimately something you use in combination with other things like Archons and Blink Stalkers to forge a type of response but there is nothing that is close to as easy to use and respond with as an Infestor or Thor for Protoss
At what point in the game are we talking about? 11-13 minutes when the mutas have hatched and have begun hitting your bases, or 18 minutes when theres 30-40+ and you apparently haven't done anything about it? You almost make the case that a zerg will split his mutas into multiple packs to avoid storms, which pretty much negates the power in which Mutas scale by number. SC2 is a battle of control. For very, obvious reasons, if a muta'ing player out-controls a Protoss going storm, then I would assume he should be rewarded.
You're also speaking within the perspective that the majority of protosses apparently suck and aren't fast enough to multi-task multiple engagements with HT's. You don't have to explain how muta's are used, I've played this game before.
The only point I can concede is that no, Protoss didn't have their own control friendly version of the Thor to deal with muta clumps. But the cost is the carrier, the Iconic T3 Protoss unit that was massively nerfed from Broodwar and completely neglected.
On October 23 2011 05:46 KimJongChill wrote: Hmm, I think Blizzard is generally moving in the right direction. Will need to do a lot of beta testing and tinkering imo. Swarm host just doesnt look strong to me imo, it's a ground broodlord >_>
You know they could just take the shield battery from Starcraft 1 and incorporate it into the Nexus, and that would help against cheese instead of giving them mobile photon cannons.
On October 23 2011 14:57 midoriiro wrote: I must concede, I love the idea of the warhound, but I voted "NO" on it because the model for it absolutely atrocious
Why can't they just put a Goliath 2.0 in the game, giving a new ground cannon or something that does extra damage vs armored?
Why does it have to be this really odd looking unit that stands out against the look of all the other units?
I think these units will help protoss, its going to take some inginuity, but with a small bit of tweaking and some increased apm i think these units will become part of the protoss mainstream forces. HOWEVER, i will say this, i do not see the tempest's uses in pvp and pvt, same goes for the oracles use in pvp or any new unit for that matter. PvP is like the mental sickness of the mirror matchups. Right now its robo-twilight and collosus on 1-2 base. Even the 11 gate 4 gate is becoming popular. I don't see long term units other than maybe the replicant (and even that is a stretch) being used without a metagame switch
On October 23 2011 14:47 Imbak333 wrote: why are protoss getting a unit thats purpose is to kill big flocks of mutas.... mutas are horrible in zvp
Mutas are awesome in ZvP and in any league lower than master you can actually autowin going muta vs Toss. I got a buddy that's high diamond so a little lower level than I am who has 90% winrate vs Toss when he goes Muta.
I think the only reason Baneling drops and roaches are seen more is because it's more stable and consistent results. Rather than you either mash them or get mashed instantly with muta.
On October 23 2011 14:57 midoriiro wrote: I must concede, I love the idea of the warhound, but I voted "NO" on it because the model for it absolutely atrocious
Why can't they just put a Goliath 2.0 in the game, giving a new ground cannon or something that does extra damage vs armored?
Why does it have to be this really odd looking unit that stands out against the look of all the other units?
I don't see what's so bad about the Warhound when it's basically similar to the "Thor" in Mechwarrior 3 whereas the Goliath looks like the MadCat. I think both look equally awesome and anything that pushes Terran into a Mech trend rather than Marauder spam is fine by me.
On October 23 2011 14:47 Imbak333 wrote: why are protoss getting a unit thats purpose is to kill big flocks of mutas.... mutas are horrible in zvp
Mutas are awesome in ZvP and in any league lower than master you can actually autowin going muta vs Toss. I got a buddy that's high diamond so a little lower level than I am who has 90% winrate vs Toss when he goes Muta.
I think the only reason Baneling drops and roaches are seen more is because it's more stable and consistent results. Rather than you either mash them or get mashed instantly with muta.
so you're saying they introduce a new unit cuz toss in lower leagues are bad?
I think that the zerg units fufill too many weaknesses of the zerg race. I think that the race might have too much of an advantage with their ridiculous macro potential now and I don't think it can be balanced in it's current state.
On October 23 2011 14:57 midoriiro wrote: I must concede, I love the idea of the warhound, but I voted "NO" on it because the model for it absolutely atrocious
Why can't they just put a Goliath 2.0 in the game, giving a new ground cannon or something that does extra damage vs armored?
Why does it have to be this really odd looking unit that stands out against the look of all the other units?
I don't see what's so bad about the Warhound when it's basically similar to the "Thor" in Mechwarrior 3 whereas the Goliath looks like the MadCat. I think both look equally awesome and anything that pushes Terran into a Mech trend rather than Marauder spam is fine by me.
Warhound is basically a marauder with an anti-air gun. -_-
"Sucks vs zealots and owns every other protoss unit". Yep that's a marauder, DB.
On October 23 2011 14:57 midoriiro wrote: I must concede, I love the idea of the warhound, but I voted "NO" on it because the model for it absolutely atrocious
Why can't they just put a Goliath 2.0 in the game, giving a new ground cannon or something that does extra damage vs armored?
Why does it have to be this really odd looking unit that stands out against the look of all the other units?
I don't see what's so bad about the Warhound when it's basically similar to the "Thor" in Mechwarrior 3 whereas the Goliath looks like the MadCat. I think both look equally awesome and anything that pushes Terran into a Mech trend rather than Marauder spam is fine by me.
Warhound is basically a marauder with an anti-air gun. -_-
"Sucks vs zealots and owns every other protoss unit". Yep that's a marauder, DB.
They just took half of Thor's anti-air missile pods and gave it to the marauder and took away his drugs.
Honestly, I'm thinking of switching to Terran before HotS makes me. All of these units will effect Protoss strategy in absolutely no way except the tempest in very specific situations. Why don't we get an area-control unit?
Do I think these units fix the zerg's problems? No.
Zerg still does not have a reliable form of anti-ground splash. Banelings and Fungal are of limited use and ultralisks come way too late. Of course the Viper alleviates some of these issues by forcing clumps of ranged units to move more.
But, we still dont have that lurker-like creature that once deployed can shred masses of units. And that will show especially on the defensive where no matter how creative you get with your banelings and vipers you will still be forced to have a huge army to defend your base instead of a handful (like the siege tanks and to a lesser extent sentries)
This is a major principle an RTS game that Zerg lacks, Protoss also kinda lacks and Terran has a huge plenty of. We need to be able to properly defend key points with ease and it is tactical splash units that do so. (like the new shredder).
So: what I would propose, but I know I'll get hate for it, is that this new Swarm Host, also attacks like a Lurker when deployed. So it is a huge range creature spawner (which kinda overlaps with the brood lord) and a shorter range splash dealer.
Someone who voted yes on the shredder, please explain to me why. It's an interesting dynamic, but some aoe turret built out of a factory seems soooo weird and out of place to me. Terrans also have a couple ways already to zone units with tanks/bunkers/building placements and turrets. Do they really need another?
In my opinion, we just have to wait how all this evolves during pro games and through time.
Yeah well, we can discuss these new abilities and units, but fact is, most of us haven't played them yet and can't make any real judgement.
Sure, some new stuff might seem unbalanced/weak/wrong, but i think we just have to see.
I personally like everything new that is being added to the game. Anyone will find a way to use these new things. And if there isn't a way found to deal with these, Blizzard will take it out. Nice and simple
The main problem might be, that during this "lets see how the unit works"-period there are some tournaments being played with these units. And the imbalance of the units might affect the outcome of these matches..... Well...
On October 23 2011 14:47 Imbak333 wrote: why are protoss getting a unit thats purpose is to kill big flocks of mutas.... mutas are horrible in zvp
Mutas switches are incredibly difficult to stop. A large muta flock is basically gg. Loads of top Zergs use them in ZvP.
I like the Tempest - ability to wrest air control, and generally dominate as Protoss should be able to do given enough $$. Oracle sounds cool too, for that harass we so badly need.
Don't get the replicant though. What's it supposed to do?
swarm host seems too simliar to infestor. they require exactly the same tech, and you can spawn free units with them if they're burrowed. if you have an infestation pit and burrow, why would you ever make swarm hosts when you can make infestors?
i really like the swarm host and the idea of it but i think it's simply too similar to the infestor right now.
Protoss is going in a very strange direction, and I honestly don't think Blizzard knows what it's trying to do with the race. They seem afraid of moving it back to its original image of strong, expensive, slow-producing core units with strong AOE support units.
This whole movement away from the original image actually started with the introduction of Warpgates. As Protoss mobility went up, the robustness of its core units went down. Now in HotS we have cute little units like the Replicant, the Oracle and the straight-up-good-against-mass-muta-only Tempest.
What needs to happen is a complete redesign that adheres faithfully to the original Protoss image of robust, more expensive, not-too-mobile, slower-producing core units with few, but powerful, AOE supporting units. Then, let the metagame settle around this new redesign and patch accordingly.
On October 23 2011 16:30 GiygaS wrote: Honestly, I'm thinking of switching to Terran before HotS makes me. All of these units will effect Protoss strategy in absolutely no way except the tempest in very specific situations. Why don't we get an area-control unit?
On October 23 2011 07:02 Wildsound wrote: I feel like protoss just isnt being given the right design and direction that it should be. What that should be I don't know, but this just doesnt feel right. Zerg had some similar issues, but I feel they are starting to get there with their ideas.
On October 23 2011 14:47 Imbak333 wrote: why are protoss getting a unit thats purpose is to kill big flocks of mutas.... mutas are horrible in zvp
Mutas switches are incredibly difficult to stop. A large muta flock is basically gg. Loads of top Zergs use them in ZvP.
I like the Tempest - ability to wrest air control, and generally dominate as Protoss should be able to do given enough $$. Oracle sounds cool too, for that harass we so badly need.
Now the question lies in that can the Zerg magic box/split micro the Mutas against the Tempest?
I don't actually know how the Tempest works but as far as I've seen, it's just a huge Corsair which means it's possible to just magic box the hell out of the thing.
Tempests should be cost-effective against Mutas(Just like Thors now) but when those starts to appear, the Zerg should have speed Hydras and possibly a couple Vipers to prevent the Colossi from murdering everything meaning that the Protoss can have a Replicant or two to get Vipers of his own to render the Hydras worthless.
The TIG interview with IMMVP/nestea/coach gives their opinion on the new units.
IMMVP says he doesn't think terran playstyle will change much, and that the shredder will be very powerful if used correctly.
Nestea likes the new units but is worried that zerg is going to require even more things to take care of (creep, inject + complex unit micro management like ultralisk burrow charge).
(IMMVP played nestea tvz, and won playing mech.)
The coach played toss, and said the new units give a set of harassing capabilities so the toss can change the gameflow quite a bit, giving them the upper hand in controlling the game, and that he's looking forward to the expansion. He also talked about the zerg units, saying that the usage of viper will likely distinguish the A-level and B-level zerg players in HOTS.
Battle Hellion - No Shredder - Yes Warhound - No Terran Overall - Yes Viper - Yes Swarm Host - Yes Zerg Overall - Yes Replicant - Honestly, fuck knows, need to try it out first Oracle - Same as above, like the idea, might be too gimmicky though Tempest - Yes Protoss Overall - Maybe
I don't even want a tempest. We have phoenix for anti-muta which works perfectly fine. The ONLY and I mean ONLY thing Carriers need is a REDUCTION IN BUILD TIME!
On October 23 2011 14:47 Imbak333 wrote: why are protoss getting a unit thats purpose is to kill big flocks of mutas.... mutas are horrible in zvp
Mutas switches are incredibly difficult to stop. A large muta flock is basically gg. Loads of top Zergs use them in ZvP.
I like the Tempest - ability to wrest air control, and generally dominate as Protoss should be able to do given enough $$. Oracle sounds cool too, for that harass we so badly need.
Now the question lies in that can the Zerg magic box/split micro the Mutas against the Tempest?
I don't actually know how the Tempest works but as far as I've seen, it's just a huge Corsair which means it's possible to just magic box the hell out of the thing.
Tempests should be cost-effective against Mutas(Just like Thors now) but when those starts to appear, the Zerg should have speed Hydras and possibly a couple Vipers to prevent the Colossi from murdering everything meaning that the Protoss can have a Replicant or two to get Vipers of his own to render the Hydras worthless.
I'm starting to like this expansion already.
Ok, first of all, whomever said mutas are bad in ZvP needs to go try them out, they're great at it. Second, if you listen to Dustin Browder & David Kim describing the new units, he got that particular question during the Q&A about how Tempest will fare vs magic boxing. They said that yes, it might help a little, but generally the Tempest's AA splash is enormous, and magic boxing actually wont help very much.
On October 23 2011 05:50 KingRajesh wrote: All of the units, INCLUDING THE ORACLE, add utility.
I'm most excited for the zerg units, because I play Zerg. Swarm Hosts, from what I saw in Dustin Browder's videos, fire too slow. They need to fire at broodlord speeds.
The Viper is going to be awesome. Vipers pull in the colossus, infestor's NP them, GG.
I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that if the Viper occurs it will replace the infestor.
Lore wise protoss is the worst its ever been. The new units are nothing like protoss of old, and they seem really silly. Where are our cool bad ass units? What happened to the high temp? If any unit needs a remake its the high templar.
Replicant- Protoss units suck so we'll give you a cost ineffective way to be another race Oracle-Confusing, non attacking unit that will easily be countered by static defenses Tempest- Okay, if it actually does good enough ground damage (marine counter anyone?)
Zergs looking okay, terran...is decent I suppose dont really need additions. This expansion just makes me sad-face on where they are taking protoss. I am actually more happy about the nexus changes than the actual units.
Love both Zerg units+Ultralisk charge. They seem to have nailed the weaknesses of the race perfectly. Only thing that annoys me is the slight delay on detection which could make DT/Banshee harass much more powerful, but I'm pretty optimistic they'll sort that out
Terran units aren't flashy but they make sense. Really makes Terran less reliant on the MMM, which in turn can help them lower the power of the dreaded marine and marauder, something they can't do right now without crippling the entire race
We're really going to have to wait and see with the Protoss units. Tempest seems like a nice upgrade over the Carrier, with more of a defined role than its predecessor. But the Oracle and Replicant are controversial to say the least
On October 23 2011 17:37 Xenomorph wrote: Lore wise protoss is the worst its ever been. The new units are nothing like protoss of old, and they seem really silly. Where are our cool bad ass units? What happened to the high temp? If any unit needs a remake its the high templar.
Replicant- Protoss units suck so we'll give you a cost ineffective way to be another race Oracle-Confusing, non attacking unit that will easily be countered by static defenses Tempest- Okay, if it actually does good enough ground damage (marine counter anyone?)
Zergs looking okay, terran...is decent I suppose dont really need additions. This expansion just makes me sad-face on where they are taking protoss. I am actually more happy about the nexus changes than the actual units.
On October 23 2011 17:00 LunarC wrote: Protoss is going in a very strange direction, and I honestly don't think Blizzard knows what it's trying to do with the race. They seem afraid of moving it back to its original image of strong, expensive, slow-producing core units with strong AOE support units.
This whole movement away from the original image actually started with the introduction of Warpgates. As Protoss mobility went up, the robustness of its core units went down. Now in HotS we have cute little units like the Replicant, the Oracle and the straight-up-good-against-mass-muta-only Tempest.
What needs to happen is a complete redesign that adheres faithfully to the original Protoss image of robust, more expensive, not-too-mobile, slower-producing core units with few, but powerful, AOE supporting units. Then, let the metagame settle around this new redesign and patch accordingly.
This is an excellent post that addresses the core problem of the Protoss design at the current stage. Protoss no longer has a foundational base of "strong, expensive and slow-producing" units, rather it is an undecided mix of everything. Blizzard doesn't convey to us a clear direction with this race.
A perfect example of what I mean is evident in the design of the Replicant. All it does is just copy units from another race for the sake of fixing Protoss' own problems.
On October 23 2011 17:37 Xenomorph wrote: Lore wise protoss is the worst its ever been. The new units are nothing like protoss of old, and they seem really silly. Where are our cool bad ass units? What happened to the high temp? If any unit needs a remake its the high templar.
Replicant- Protoss units suck so we'll give you a cost ineffective way to be another race Oracle-Confusing, non attacking unit that will easily be countered by static defenses Tempest- Okay, if it actually does good enough ground damage (marine counter anyone?)
Zergs looking okay, terran...is decent I suppose dont really need additions. This expansion just makes me sad-face on where they are taking protoss. I am actually more happy about the nexus changes than the actual units.
What's wrong with the High Templar? LOL
The main issue is in PvT, since snipe and EMP both outrange feedback.
They're slow, but they're not bad. I do miss 100+ damage storms, though...
On October 23 2011 17:37 Xenomorph wrote: Lore wise protoss is the worst its ever been. The new units are nothing like protoss of old, and they seem really silly. Where are our cool bad ass units? What happened to the high temp? If any unit needs a remake its the high templar.
Replicant- Protoss units suck so we'll give you a cost ineffective way to be another race Oracle-Confusing, non attacking unit that will easily be countered by static defenses Tempest- Okay, if it actually does good enough ground damage (marine counter anyone?)
Zergs looking okay, terran...is decent I suppose dont really need additions. This expansion just makes me sad-face on where they are taking protoss. I am actually more happy about the nexus changes than the actual units.
What's wrong with the High Templar? LOL
It no longer has the power to kill lots of stuff, partially because the amount of tanking units have increased (roach, marauder) that can shrug off damage and partially because smart casting means the power of storm had to be nerfed as it is too easy to fill the screen with storms. Unfortunately this means ht are no longer the feared unit they used to be, cleaning out worker lines and forcing storm dodging or ht sniping. Most of the time, the correct response to storms is just wait it out and keep on firing. Storms used to be good against tanks even, but now ht are weak- not balance wise, but design wise compared to bw.
On October 23 2011 17:37 Xenomorph wrote: Lore wise protoss is the worst its ever been. The new units are nothing like protoss of old, and they seem really silly. Where are our cool bad ass units? What happened to the high temp? If any unit needs a remake its the high templar.
Replicant- Protoss units suck so we'll give you a cost ineffective way to be another race Oracle-Confusing, non attacking unit that will easily be countered by static defenses Tempest- Okay, if it actually does good enough ground damage (marine counter anyone?)
Zergs looking okay, terran...is decent I suppose dont really need additions. This expansion just makes me sad-face on where they are taking protoss. I am actually more happy about the nexus changes than the actual units.
What's wrong with the High Templar? LOL
It no longer has the power to kill lots of stuff, partially because the amount of tanking units have increased (roach, marauder) that can shrug off damage and partially because smart casting means the power of storm had to be nerfed as it is too easy to fill the screen with storms. Unfortunately this means ht are no longer the feared unit they used to be, cleaning out worker lines and forcing storm dodging or ht sniping. Most of the time, the correct response to storms is just wait it out and keep on firing. Storms used to be good against tanks even, but now ht are weak- not balance wise, but design wise compared to bw.
Why don't you try having your army just standing getting stormed and see how that goes for you!?
On October 23 2011 17:37 Xenomorph wrote: Lore wise protoss is the worst its ever been. The new units are nothing like protoss of old, and they seem really silly. Where are our cool bad ass units? What happened to the high temp? If any unit needs a remake its the high templar.
Replicant- Protoss units suck so we'll give you a cost ineffective way to be another race Oracle-Confusing, non attacking unit that will easily be countered by static defenses Tempest- Okay, if it actually does good enough ground damage (marine counter anyone?)
Zergs looking okay, terran...is decent I suppose dont really need additions. This expansion just makes me sad-face on where they are taking protoss. I am actually more happy about the nexus changes than the actual units.
What's wrong with the High Templar? LOL
Storm=Good
Everything else about HT=Bad
They need a defensive measure that can cloak them or something...or at least buff their base unit speed or give back amulet. There are so many different things you could do but still leave storm intact.
On October 23 2011 17:37 Xenomorph wrote: Lore wise protoss is the worst its ever been. The new units are nothing like protoss of old, and they seem really silly. Where are our cool bad ass units? What happened to the high temp? If any unit needs a remake its the high templar.
Replicant- Protoss units suck so we'll give you a cost ineffective way to be another race Oracle-Confusing, non attacking unit that will easily be countered by static defenses Tempest- Okay, if it actually does good enough ground damage (marine counter anyone?)
Zergs looking okay, terran...is decent I suppose dont really need additions. This expansion just makes me sad-face on where they are taking protoss. I am actually more happy about the nexus changes than the actual units.
What's wrong with the High Templar? LOL
Storm=Good
Everything else about HT=Bad
They need a defensive measure that can cloak them or something...or at least buff their base unit speed or give back amulet. There are so many different things you could do but still leave storm intact.
That's just not true, come now, Feedback is badass and rapes zerg casters, and then you have archon for when they run out of mana instead of the infestor that just sits there and dies
On October 23 2011 17:37 Xenomorph wrote: Lore wise protoss is the worst its ever been. The new units are nothing like protoss of old, and they seem really silly. Where are our cool bad ass units? What happened to the high temp? If any unit needs a remake its the high templar.
Replicant- Protoss units suck so we'll give you a cost ineffective way to be another race Oracle-Confusing, non attacking unit that will easily be countered by static defenses Tempest- Okay, if it actually does good enough ground damage (marine counter anyone?)
Zergs looking okay, terran...is decent I suppose dont really need additions. This expansion just makes me sad-face on where they are taking protoss. I am actually more happy about the nexus changes than the actual units.
What's wrong with the High Templar? LOL
Storm=Good
Everything else about HT=Bad
They need a defensive measure that can cloak them or something...or at least buff their base unit speed or give back amulet. There are so many different things you could do but still leave storm intact.
That's just not true, come now, Feedback is badass and rapes zerg casters, and then you have archon for when they run out of mana instead of the infestor that just sits there and dies
Can your HT burrow move into your opponent's base to scout and kill workers? No. Can your HT deal with Thor/BCs/BLs/Motherships? No. Maybe except feedback IF they have any energy.
On October 23 2011 17:37 Xenomorph wrote: Lore wise protoss is the worst its ever been. The new units are nothing like protoss of old, and they seem really silly. Where are our cool bad ass units? What happened to the high temp? If any unit needs a remake its the high templar.
Replicant- Protoss units suck so we'll give you a cost ineffective way to be another race Oracle-Confusing, non attacking unit that will easily be countered by static defenses Tempest- Okay, if it actually does good enough ground damage (marine counter anyone?)
Zergs looking okay, terran...is decent I suppose dont really need additions. This expansion just makes me sad-face on where they are taking protoss. I am actually more happy about the nexus changes than the actual units.
What's wrong with the High Templar? LOL
Storm=Good
Everything else about HT=Bad
They need a defensive measure that can cloak them or something...or at least buff their base unit speed or give back amulet. There are so many different things you could do but still leave storm intact.
That's just not true, come now, Feedback is badass and rapes zerg casters, and then you have archon for when they run out of mana instead of the infestor that just sits there and dies
Can your HT burrow move into your opponent's base to scout and kill workers? No. Can your HT deal with Thor/BCs/BLs/Motherships? No. Maybe except feedback IF they have any energy.
Can the Infestor do any of those things? No because of Turrets and Canons being standard against Zerg in any P/T build anyway. And no because it doesn't have the NP range to deal with any of those units apart from BC and Thor. Thor has tank support and BC are not viable anyway, due to corruptors...
Has anybody noticed that the most popular change is one that is almost exactly like a BW unit (defiler/viper)?
Says a lot about the Blizzard design team I think. It makes me frustrated that they won't just put the BW units back in. Seems like Blizzard is trying to fix things that aren't broke.
On October 23 2011 17:37 Xenomorph wrote: Lore wise protoss is the worst its ever been. The new units are nothing like protoss of old, and they seem really silly. Where are our cool bad ass units? What happened to the high temp? If any unit needs a remake its the high templar.
Replicant- Protoss units suck so we'll give you a cost ineffective way to be another race Oracle-Confusing, non attacking unit that will easily be countered by static defenses Tempest- Okay, if it actually does good enough ground damage (marine counter anyone?)
Zergs looking okay, terran...is decent I suppose dont really need additions. This expansion just makes me sad-face on where they are taking protoss. I am actually more happy about the nexus changes than the actual units.
What's wrong with the High Templar? LOL
Storm=Good
Everything else about HT=Bad
They need a defensive measure that can cloak them or something...or at least buff their base unit speed or give back amulet. There are so many different things you could do but still leave storm intact.
That's just not true, come now, Feedback is badass and rapes zerg casters, and then you have archon for when they run out of mana instead of the infestor that just sits there and dies
Can your HT burrow move into your opponent's base to scout and kill workers? No. Can your HT deal with Thor/BCs/BLs/Motherships? No. Maybe except feedback IF they have any energy.
Can the Infestor do any of those things? No because of Turrets and Canons being standard against Zerg in any P/T build anyway.
Um yes, yes it can. The HT straight out can't, because it can't burrow or cloak. Infestor can. Is this difficult to understand?
On October 23 2011 20:01 NeWnAr wrote: Can your HT deal with Thor/BCs/BLs/Motherships? No. Maybe except feedback IF they have any energy.
Are you serious? The HTs are the main reason why T can't use thors, BCs and ravens in TvP.
In general, I like most of the new units and changes. Vipers and Swarm Host sound like they are made of awesome and might add zerg the ability to break T and P armies in straight up engagements.
Terran might finally be able to mech in matchups other than TvT. I for once quite like the warhound (I suppose they could look a bit cooler tho).
Protoss... I think that Oracle might be a rather useful unit. With the ability to zone out building and the new town portal spell on nexus, P should be pretty much drop/counter proof. Not a very exciting unit tho.
Replicant is the one thing I really don't like. I mean... the concept of giving P access to the units of other races... I just don't like the idea.
Give Protoss reavers. Zealot legs, dragoon. Make WArp in only possible with warp prism. Give Terran science vessel and move emp from ghost to vessel. I just fix Protoss and PvT. I think blizzard don't like simple solution.
TBH The Swarm Host is a retarded unit. It doesn't fix the problem that zerg has. Zerg needs an area holding unit like sentries (forcefields) or siege tanks, swarm host is just a more immobile brood lord.
Blizzard seems to be trying to re-add the brood war stuff but without making it broodwar... at least for Terran and Zerg.
Warhound.. Should really just be the Goliath.. you already designed it, why have it sitting doing nothing, when the unit you probably spent months designing.. is the exact same.. "It's a smaller faster thor!"... like the Goliath you mean?
Battle Hellion or .. the Firebat V2.
The Shredder.. well most zergs will probably have muta's to deal with it easy enough. Toss. not so sure, blink stalkers? blink in and kill before it kills you? Or you could Oracle it, I guess.
Swarm Host.. Lurker-esque. needs to be faster before it'll be formidable. Why are the spawned broods visible??.. Zerg has no unit can attack while cloaked (apart from hidden banelings.. and thats hardly the same as a ghost, DT or Banshee) They should have just put the lurker back in.. once again saving design time for something else.
Viper.. kind of like a flying defiler.. but with a grabby thing. They should get rid of that, one, its ridiculous. two, it overlaps completely with Neural parasite. You can already grab collosus and drag it towards your army.. why do we need any other unit to do that?
Toss Units, the replicant and Oracle I'd need to see being used in game before I could make my mind up on, the tempest looks cool however.
It's as if they've decided to try and emulate brood war further, but don't want to admit it, so they've changed a few things, to keep it newer, sc2-ish. I don't get why if they're going to create units to do what their BW counterparts did.. as they are already in the game, why they can't just use them.
PS. did they mention the range on the ultra charge? that looks funny.
I really don't like some of the new units, partially because they don't make any sense to me. Why should the hellion be more durable, when it transformed into a walking mode? Generally, I'd say a vehicle should be far more durable regarding damage from outside, than something walking on two legs which can potentially fall and exposes more surface area.
Also I do not understand why they had to cut units, just because they added new ones (in particular protoss carrier and mothership).
After having a good look at these units, SC2 is starting to look like SC:BW more and more. I just dont know they didnt take SC:BW and give it a revamp in the first place
On October 23 2011 17:37 Xenomorph wrote: Lore wise protoss is the worst its ever been. The new units are nothing like protoss of old, and they seem really silly. Where are our cool bad ass units? What happened to the high temp? If any unit needs a remake its the high templar.
Replicant- Protoss units suck so we'll give you a cost ineffective way to be another race Oracle-Confusing, non attacking unit that will easily be countered by static defenses Tempest- Okay, if it actually does good enough ground damage (marine counter anyone?)
Zergs looking okay, terran...is decent I suppose dont really need additions. This expansion just makes me sad-face on where they are taking protoss. I am actually more happy about the nexus changes than the actual units.
What's wrong with the High Templar? LOL
Storm=Good
Everything else about HT=Bad
They need a defensive measure that can cloak them or something...or at least buff their base unit speed or give back amulet. There are so many different things you could do but still leave storm intact.
That's just not true, come now, Feedback is badass and rapes zerg casters, and then you have archon for when they run out of mana instead of the infestor that just sits there and dies
Can your HT burrow move into your opponent's base to scout and kill workers? No. Can your HT deal with Thor/BCs/BLs/Motherships? No. Maybe except feedback IF they have any energy.
Can the Infestor do any of those things? No because of Turrets and Canons being standard against Zerg in any P/T build anyway.
Um yes, yes it can. The HT straight out can't, because it can't burrow or cloak. Infestor can. Is this difficult to understand?
You said it could get into a base... Note, I didn't say Infestors can't burrow! I said they can't burrow into a base... And what if P/T hasn't built any detection? Same thing as what if Zerg hasn't positioned units to spot Templar from just walking into a NONWALL expo and storming a mineral line. It's just dumb play early and happens in lategame when things get messy.
On October 23 2011 20:53 Topdoller wrote: After having a good look at these units, SC2 is starting to look like SC:BW more and more. I just dont know they didnt take SC:BW and give it a revamp in the first place
On October 23 2011 20:42 Gingerninja wrote: Swarm Host.. Lurker-esque. needs to be faster before it'll be formidable. Why are the spawned broods visible??.. Zerg has no unit can attack while cloaked (apart from hidden banelings.. and thats hardly the same as a ghost, DT or Banshee) They should have just put the lurker back in.. once again saving design time for something else.
PS. did they mention the range on the ultra charge? that looks funny.
The reason why Swarm host is visible because it is effectively broodlords only on the ground making it a siege unit. I'm pretty sure that there are no cloaked sieges units in the game so if they are cloaked. Even though it makes no sense that they can see Swarm host underground but not banelings for example.
On October 23 2011 20:53 Topdoller wrote: After having a good look at these units, SC2 is starting to look like SC:BW more and more. I just dont know they didnt take SC:BW and give it a revamp in the first place
Go play broodwar
Ya dunno if you got that, but almost all of the units that are positively recepted are copies of scbw units already. His claim does make a lot of sense or do you think the warhound looks awesome in any way?
Tempest - not needed imo. It's made to combat mutas while toss already has archons, storms, blink stalkers. Do we really need extra new unit spefically made to kill pack of 50 mutas? ^^
Shredder - not needed. Terran already has PFs, tanks, bunkers - best defense in the game. Imo something like Shredder should be given to zerg, because it has weakest defense.
Battle Hellion - Hellions in WoL are already very good vs. lings / zealots, do we really them to be even stronger vs. lings / zealots? I think all terrans going to always make this unit, cause it's just so strong and effective.
On new abilites:
Moving burrowed banelings does not seem right at all.
Chraging ultras does not seem good as well. Better straight buff them, because with charge they are going to be doing unavoidable damage which is not good imo.
Mass racall very bad idea imo. No more protoss losing battles ever. Go snipe something and teleport back to town whenever you please.
On October 23 2011 20:42 Gingerninja wrote: Blizzard seems to be trying to re-add the brood war stuff but without making it broodwar... at least for Terran and Zerg.
Warhound.. Should really just be the Goliath.. you already designed it, why have it sitting doing nothing, when the unit you probably spent months designing.. is the exact same.. "It's a smaller faster thor!"... like the Goliath you mean?
The Warhound is better, because the SiegeTank is worse and can't get buffed, because it would become to strong with SC2 unitAI.
On October 23 2011 20:42 Gingerninja wrote: Battle Hellion or .. the Firebat V2.
baracks =/= factory; bio play =/= mech play
On October 23 2011 20:42 Gingerninja wrote: Swarm Host.. Lurker-esque. needs to be faster before it'll be formidable. Why are the spawned broods visible??.. Zerg has no unit can attack while cloaked (apart from hidden banelings.. and thats hardly the same as a ghost, DT or Banshee) They should have just put the lurker back in.. once again saving design time for something else.
they couldn't make the lurker work in WoL, what makes you think it would be a good unit in HotS?
On October 23 2011 20:42 Gingerninja wrote: Viper.. kind of like a flying defiler.. but with a grabby thing. They should get rid of that, one, its ridiculous. two, it overlaps completely with Neural parasite. You can already grab collosus and drag it towards your army.. why do we need any other unit to do that?
A little bit like the defiler, yet other tech and other spell and flying... so similar role different unit. Also NP can't deal with colossi, even on low level it can't anymore since the rangenerf.
On October 23 2011 20:42 Gingerninja wrote: Toss Units, the replicant and Oracle I'd need to see being used in game before I could make my mind up on, the tempest looks cool however.
you should do that with every unit. Everything else is just theorycrafting withou any evidence...[/QUOTE]
The replicant is just a plain stupid unit. I play toss because they have badass units. Why would I want to make terran and zerg units for more money and supply then they are worth? If I really want to use terran and zerg units I will switch to their race.
I'm just really concerned about protoss since Blizzard seems quite incapable of seeing what the issue with the race is. All the races, both in BW and SC2 have had these core units that you play with, and then you add in support units to buff these core units. At the moment protoss has these core units that are made to buff their power units, or rather to protect/buffer their power units. While this might be okay to an extend, it just makes protoss very gimmicky and as soon as you scout which power unit protoss is going for, the other 2 races can just teching towards it's counter and protoss has a harsh time.
They really need to make a design change for the protoss race, so the 90% of the protoss race is actually the dmg dealing part of the army, rather than the 10%. First change would be remove warp gate tech, which although awesome idea, just doesn't work, since for it to work, all the gateway units have had to be nerfed to crap.
On October 23 2011 20:53 Topdoller wrote: After having a good look at these units, SC2 is starting to look like SC:BW more and more. I just dont know they didnt take SC:BW and give it a revamp in the first place
Go play broodwar
Ya dunno if you got that, but almost all of the units that are positively recepted are copies of scbw units already. His claim does make a lot of sense or do you think the warhound looks awesome in any way?
Can't see any broodwar copies. Maybe the warhound is one, but seriously Swarm hosts are something completly different than lurkers, vipers are not defilers, just because they cast a spell that's similar to dark swarm... Especially they can't eat zerglings to regenerate energy, which was one of the most fundamental defiler abilities, because it granted that you don't have to mass them, to keep spamming spells.
I'm disappointed with how the Warhound looks like everyone else. Someone said it best in some reddit thread that it looks like and SCV that went to the gym. Very toy-robot like.
I'd be much happier if they just gave us the unit that all terrans really want - the goliath. Modify the weaponry on it so it fits the new unit's role.
Or, just redesign it so that it's less silly looking.
Between vikings, ghosts, new hellion and the warhound, how exactly are Protoss supposed to break Terran mech? It looks like everything Terran have cost efficiently counters everything Protoss have.
Why don't people like the Protoss units? Not imba enough for you guys? To me they seem pretty cool and reasonably balanced. Makes sense to not improve the deathball but add cool utility like Oracle harrass and nexus warp-back.
On October 23 2011 20:53 Topdoller wrote: After having a good look at these units, SC2 is starting to look like SC:BW more and more. I just dont know they didnt take SC:BW and give it a revamp in the first place
Go play broodwar
I will be soon when HOTS is release
Firebat Lurker Defiler Spidermine's Goliath
Edit : Shame the carrier is dying a death, i really cant see why they just couldnt adjust it. Build time reduction by 15 seconds maybe?
The only protoss unit I dont like is the replicant. To me it says we shall make protoss stronger by making them be able to get Terran/Zerg units. Why do protoss need to copy other races units to be strong?. its a bad mind set to have.
I cant think of many units you would want to copy with it, Maybe a banshee or a raven from terran, And from zerg Infestor's.
On October 23 2011 21:31 Feridan wrote: Between vikings, ghosts, new hellion and the warhound, how exactly are Protoss supposed to break Terran mech? It looks like everything Terran have cost efficiently counters everything Protoss have.
That's because Terran has no real weakness. There used to be a weakness you could exploit with ling run-by... oh, Protoss...uhm...yeah...sorry, that's a no-go. But hey, the once almost complete race is now a fully complete race. Yay Terran - apologize (again) for playing that race...
[edit] Maybe a little bit exaggerating here, but that's how it feels for me everytime I see Terran. Putting all my last hopes into Whatever-the-fuck the Void ((c)iNcontroL). [/edit]
On October 23 2011 20:53 Topdoller wrote: After having a good look at these units, SC2 is starting to look like SC:BW more and more. I just dont know they didnt take SC:BW and give it a revamp in the first place
Go play broodwar
I will be soon when HOTS is release
Firebat Lurker Defiler Spidermine's Goliath
Edit : Shame the carrier is dying a death, i really cant see why they just couldnt adjust it. Build time reduction by 15 seconds maybe?
On October 23 2011 21:21 SharkWithLaz0rs wrote: I'm disappointed with how the Warhound looks like everyone else. Someone said it best in some reddit thread that it looks like and SCV that went to the gym. Very toy-robot like.
I'd be much happier if they just gave us the unit that all terrans really want - the goliath. Modify the weaponry on it so it fits the new unit's role.
Or, just redesign it so that it's less silly looking.
All terrans? Not all terrans want the goliath back. I much prefer the look of the warhound to the goliath that was in the WoL campaign.
On October 23 2011 20:53 Topdoller wrote: After having a good look at these units, SC2 is starting to look like SC:BW more and more. I just dont know they didnt take SC:BW and give it a revamp in the first place
Go play broodwar
I will be soon when HOTS is release
Firebat Lurker Defiler Spidermine's Goliath
Edit : Shame the carrier is dying a death, i really cant see why they just couldnt adjust it. Build time reduction by 15 seconds maybe?
On October 23 2011 21:33 Klive5ive wrote: Why don't people like the Protoss units? Not imba enough for you guys? To me they seem pretty cool and reasonably balanced. Makes sense to not improve the deathball but add cool utility like Oracle harrass and nexus warp-back.
I don't know. I was expecting something sick like the Reaver to be introduced for Protoss harass options. But, instead they get possibly the most unexciting unit ever to be introduced in the Starcraft series. (Besides the Corruptor.)
I think the only units I'm uncertain about are the Replicator and Tempest.
A clone that requires vision to copy should really be cheap, or it's almost never worthwhile. I want to say that they'd be good if they had a lowish cost and high supply value, but it's really hard to gauge what it would be like. Tempests are cool, but I don't see why they're needed. They'd be fantastic considering how fragile WoL capital ships are against Corruptors, but now that those two units are being shafted, it seems out of place.
Oracles though, I think will be pretty good. They only use energy to harass, so if they're fast enough they're going to be great. I'm really excited to see how they turn out. Really, the best new Protoss unit is the Nexus, by far.
The Terran and Zerg new units are all awesome and look great. I don't like that the Viper replaces the Overseer though - the units have very different roles.
On October 23 2011 21:33 Klive5ive wrote: Why don't people like the Protoss units? Not imba enough for you guys? To me they seem pretty cool and reasonably balanced. Makes sense to not improve the deathball but add cool utility like Oracle harrass and nexus warp-back.
I don't know. I was expecting something sick like the Reaver to be introduced for Protoss harass options. But, instead they get possibly the most unexciting unit ever to be introduced in the Starcraft series. (Besides the Corruptor.)
The corruptor can't warp out all the opponents bunkers while your zealots run in. The corruptor can't shut down a spire while you get some defence up. The corruptor can't deny a gold expansion.
This unit is going to allow the Protoss to keep up with Zerg macro in the mid-game by just screwing stuff up. I think that's pretty cool.
On October 23 2011 13:26 kofman wrote: Blizzard went overboard on the "protoss needs a harras unit" idea. If you look at terran and zerg, the way they harras is with marine drops and mutalisks. Both of these units, in addition to being great harrass, also play key roles in battles too. Meanwhile, the oracle is a purely harass unit that can't do anything other than block minerals and stop production for a little bit. It is completely useless in an actual fight, and it can't even kill scvs. Please, give protoss a mobile harassing unit that can also be used in an actual fight. Not phoenix, which need to use graviton beam to be useful, and especially not oracles.
So what if it can't kill SCVs
Given the right situation, doing something like disabling all of the Terrans Starports before a Colossus push is stronger than killing 10+ SCVs.
People seem to have this ridiculous idea that the only good way of harassing is worker harassing. I think this is a concept that will change come HOTS and the introduction of the Oracle.
I don't think people realize how much damage is actually inflicted if you stop your opponent from making specific units for a period of time and how bad of a position it can put them if you are smart about it.
Sure it won't be the same as having them slowly die due to lack of economy, but being forced to build but Zealots for the next minute and a half in a PvP can be scarier than losing half your probes.
It is even more scary when used with a tactical mind, worker harass slows down production but Phase Shifting completely limits production to a screeching halt. You can easily see the Oracle being used in ways beyond what a typical hellion can do.
Something like hindering your opponents Stalker count via Cybernetics and using that time to regain Air control, stopping their early medivac production off their Reacot/Starport, forcing whatever early push they had in mind to come far too late to deal any damage. The only problem is though that there is nothing standard you can do every game, what you choose to harass will most likely be different every game
I'm split with the Oracle. It's damn powerful, I agree with you. I think it's 45sec phase shift atm? The problem is - that "decision" and "intelligent play" is not really a difficult decision. "You just won a battle lost your aoe units (colossus) and fear that Zerglings will overrun your stalkers"? Just fly in and phase shift the spawning pool. Do this twice and you basically 1shot a spawning pool (build time 65sec).
Also my personal problem is: it's the same as Fungal Growth / CS / FF. It takes away from the other player. Your opponent knows "I need to build unit X now", but he just cannot do it. And there's not much for him to do against it. Static defense doesnt help that much "Ups, he had 1 more Oracle than I expected". Leaving units behind "just to be save" weakens the main army more. Sure he can build every tech structure twice, but really?
Why I like the Oracle: Is phase shift usable on your own buildings? I think so (it says so in the New Units/Abilities thread). "Oh you attack my 3rd - w00ps denied". Can you walk through phaseshifted buildings? If yes: Build a 2 building deep wall, and phaseshift everytime one of your units wants to leave the base. (Phaseshift Pylons and have backup pylons to power your structures). Look at the enemy trying to counterattack, when your "wall" is up. If no: Just phaseshift your buildings and no one will be able to break your wall.
The mineral shielding is just icing on the cake Imagine shielding a gold base, when the Terran just used 4 mules at once (while you threaten to attack another path so he cannot just pull away his units to destroy the shields).
The replicant though I hate with a passion. It's just plain boring and I dont want it.
I mourn the loss of the carrier, the phoenix overload ability, researchable on the fleet beacon idea seems just to be a cooler way to deal with massmutas. And it would leave the option to keep the carrier (and buff it like the Ultra / BC). i.e. let them build another type of interceptors who shoot slower & only once, but more powerful (to break units with a high armor value like corruptors better). Or just make them more microable (like in BW).
Oh and I hoped they remove the colossus und move warpgate to tier 3 Or give the colossus a 2phase mode: Either range 7 but not attackable by air (a nice range to be NPed^^), or range 9 and attackable by air (cannot switch in combat, so a rather long switch time). It would enable people to play air/robo switches.
On October 23 2011 21:33 Klive5ive wrote: Why don't people like the Protoss units? Not imba enough for you guys? To me they seem pretty cool and reasonably balanced. Makes sense to not improve the deathball but add cool utility like Oracle harrass and nexus warp-back.
I think people expected to have big protoss changes which solves the core problem they have (warpgate, FF, weak gateway units, colosossus OP). And basically Blizz didnt adress a single one of those and gave more gimmicky units. People dont want to rely on gimmicky strats (oh you didnt scout my 8 DTs in your main?) or the deathball. They want to fight multiple battles at once, but since gateway units are very weak when not in a ball (compared to roach/ling, mmm) it's not possible.
On October 23 2011 21:33 Klive5ive wrote: Why don't people like the Protoss units? Not imba enough for you guys? To me they seem pretty cool and reasonably balanced. Makes sense to not improve the deathball but add cool utility like Oracle harrass and nexus warp-back.
I don't know. I was expecting something sick like the Reaver to be introduced for Protoss harass options. But, instead they get possibly the most unexciting unit ever to be introduced in the Starcraft series. (Besides the Corruptor.)
The corruptor can't warp out all the opponents bunkers while your zealots run in. The corruptor can't shut down a spire while you get some defence up. The corruptor can't deny a gold expansion.
This unit is going to allow the Protoss to keep up with Zerg macro in the mid-game by just screwing stuff up. I think that's pretty cool.
Well, its the runner up to the corruptor for a reason. This won't deny expansions if the shields have 50 hp (I think) as marines, lings easily can deal with it. Even workers can kill it. The bunker thing seems interesting...
Edit: Also, I misunderstood the phasing out ability! But, still I can see why Toss is unexcited .
I can't understand Blizzard's decision to make the Tempest. Firstly, Mutalisks have never been a big problem in PvZ. Secondly, I don't see Protoss players abandoning Collosus/Templar production so that they can get Stargates and a Fleet Beacon and spend 1200/1200 on 4 Tempest that can kill a poorly controlled harassing unit. The only other use I can think of is to protect some Collosus from Corruptors or Vikings. Getting some Tempest would cut into Collosus numbers so heavily that it defeats the purpose of getting them, especially against Vikings which will tear the Tempest apart from long range. I haven't seen the Tempest ground attack but I'm sure it isn't worth the huge investment. Overall the Tempest looks like such a weak unit for its cost, while it attempts to fill a role that wasn't needed. If the Tempest was actually good it would just deter Mutalisk play and promote 'lets smash our deathballs together' games.
The Oracle is a really interesting idea for a harass unit, but it is Stargate tech. So now Stargate has a harass unit in the Phoenix and a unit that is often used for harass in the Void Ray. Blizzard removes the one unit that had potential to build a solid army around from the Stargate and adds another harass unit and the super-situational Tempest. The Oracle is not the unit you would base your entire build around getting. A harass unit for Protoss should be something they can get along the way while going down a tech path that you can actually make an army out of.
I see just one major use for the Replicant. Copying Siege Tanks. The problem with this is that siege tanks are more powerful against Terran than against Protoss. The fact that a Protoss player can make Replicants effectively deters the Terran from making Siege Tanks which in turn makes the matchup less dynamic.
1) announce tempest is replacing carrier knowing it will create backlash 2) appear to care about community by bringing back the carrier 3) make the carrier the most useless unit in the history of rts 4) receive praise for replacing carrier with the tempest 5) ??? 6) profit!
7) make tempest useless to troll community after they rejected the tempest
The replicant seems like an okay design decision, because its purpose is clear and it has a lot of utility without sacrificing functionality.
On the other hand, This game is feeling a lot like those other RTS games that have a bunch of wacky units that do something flashy and cool, like soulstorm and C&C.
On October 23 2011 21:33 Klive5ive wrote: Why don't people like the Protoss units? Not imba enough for you guys? To me they seem pretty cool and reasonably balanced. Makes sense to not improve the deathball but add cool utility like Oracle harrass and nexus warp-back.
I like the idea of the Oracle but I don't think it seems strong enough in it's current form. The nexus abilities are great too but while we are not getting any units that improve our army composition terran get several new units that counter protoss even more.
I voted no for everything except the viper, and I don't exactly know what to chose for the swarm host, since I didnt really see it in action.
The terran units feel really boring, again, and I really don't like the shredder. It feels like it negates options rather than adding them.
The protoss units are pretty stupid imo. I hate the replicant, we need a real unit, not a "you have every unit available lolol unit". The harass unit feels very gimmicky and the tempest is not really what was needed.
On October 23 2011 17:23 HALFKNOT wrote: lol, you really like the swarm host? did you see them in action? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fedMEz-M-M they shoot 2 units / 17 seconds. i can only imagine a pack of stimpacked marines killing them instantly with a scan.
Look at them in this vid, they are just destroying mineral lines... not.
The only thing I'm not comfortable with in the original post is how inconsistently the poll results are presented. Yes/No, then No/Yes, and again Yes/No. It's already making a lot of confusion with people on Bnet forums quoting this topic. Be careful when posting polls on TL, you might very easily get referenced somewhere else x-)
On October 23 2011 17:23 HALFKNOT wrote: lol, you really like the swarm host? did you see them in action? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fedMEz-M-M they shoot 2 units / 17 seconds. i can only imagine a pack of stimpacked marines killing them instantly with a scan.
Look at them in this vid, they are just destroying mineral lines... not.
Come on, you can clearly see that a pair of those Locusts kills an scv in 4-5 seconds. You can't judge the damage when the video shows like 5 seconds of attacking lol
- shredder : somewhat interesting but i just keep thinking that spidermines wouldve done the same just more fun/exciting and less complicated. -warhound: art wise it looks terrible imho. the model,how it walks, the attack animation... all really bad. and i much dislike the "replaces thor so thor can be uber unit!!11" approach. -transformer reject: bland and i dont think we need more walking robots in sc2...
-viper: interesting overall. tho i SERIOUSLY doubt it gonna make its way into the game like this. the pull screams balance problem(esp on a flyer), makes little sense and looks quite stupid. and the pseudo disruption web together with fungal... - swarm host: how about just giving us the lurker? the basic concept doesnt sound bad. the ingame scene from the panel looked terrible tho. also imho we dont need more slow walking zombie cannon fodder. -ultra charge looks good. at the same time possibly imbalanced and might make some situations way more simple since blocking ,micro,fungal etc are all way less important when you can just blink into whatever with your ultras.might look cool but make the game less interesting in those situations.
-replicant: will produce tons of problems and is in the end a very uncreative design. doubt it will make it to the final game. -oracle: seems kinda boring ,situational and has a very "forced" design to pidgeonhole it into that special niche that they wanted to fill. - tempest: dont delete the carrier! and personally see no real reason to add a unit like that right now. but atleast its better then the other 2 P units.
overall im pretty dissappointed tbh by what they revealed at blizzcon. half the unit concepts are bad/boring, bnet is gonna lack basic features for several years(clan support maybe with lotv?...) etc. the hots trailer was cool tho
Oracle-Confusing, non attacking unit that will easily be countered by static defenses
except it can, you know, just phase shift static defense out of existence for 45 seconds at a time for 50 energy, which leaves more than enough to, say, also phase shift both assimilators and cause 200 gas worth of damage, then fly out without taking a hit...then come back in a bit and keep doing it.
Between phase shifting assimilators and entombing mineral lines, a well controlled Oracle that stayed active and didn't get taken down (which, given its crazy high speed, is definitely doable) could *easily* do 500+ gas damage and/or 1000+ mineral damage throughout the game...
and oh yeah, it can also remove entire tech paths from play.
Seriously I'm getting the sense that everyone hating on the Oracle has no idea how it actually works...
without hearing more info on units/costs etc my only suggestion would be to NOT introduce the warhound. Instead, just use the thor and change it to fit the roll/abilities the warhound would have (non massive, cheaper etc etc). I also don't like the idea of a hero unit but IF they really want to do it just make it the Odin from SP.
transformed hellion: might solve some problems in TvP Mech play, without heavily buffing Mech in TvZ and TvT. Good idea, bad design! Warhound: Seems a little strong TvT, because it is so strong vs tanks, got to see it more to determine how good it is vs Mutalisks and void rays and protoss mech. Shredder: looks extremly brutal vs zerg and might force zerg to give up all strategies that rely on counterattacking. Thor: Time will tell. Hopefully it will be something that sees play when people go BC anyway, but not too much else.
Swarm Host: love it. Burrow them out of (terran) sight, spawn the locust and move them to another position, so terran can't find them. and then repeat with more and more swarm hosts at multiple locations. Also ZvZ this could become extremly interesting, due to the openess of zerg bases. Viper: Enables zerg to break chokes before broodlords, and makes ultralisks useful in high supply battles. Also it could be quite good with hydralisks (and roaches)! Pulling colossi might be too strong, depending on its energy costs, range and viper speed. All in all very interesting unit. Ultralisk: Charge looks nice, but fundamental size and AI problems stay. Have to see it in action, before I can judge.
Replicant: Can't see a reason why one would copy protoss stuff with it, apart from weird endgame scenarios, while copying infestor, viper, ghosts... might be a good choice. A little sad, because this seems a little uncreative. Oracle: Really interesting. So many possibilities, but I think it will have its main use in PvZ to phase out critical structures (tech buildings, spores), but also it's antimining ability might be really interesting vs Mules. Tempest: Don't know what this unit is needed for, but could possibly become an endgame scenario against zerg if it beats corruptors. Interesting because right now the flaggships were balanced to counter all ground once you have enough, while getting countered by AtA units. So this one might counter AtA, but get countered by GtA. Really interesting, considering that hydras are pretty easy to counter with colossi and templar, but vipers might change that. Nexus: Ouch. Mass recall + blink just seems so strong lategame. Go in, kill a base - recall, do it again to the next base - recall - ... Constant pressure in PvX incoming!
Cant we just have a continuous spawn of banebroodlings from the swarm host? In the vid it seem the siege tanks did more damage to the bunkers than the things that come out of them =S
On October 24 2011 03:24 Hikari wrote: Cant we just have a continuous spawn of banebroodlings from the swarm host? In the vid it seem the siege tanks did more damage to the bunkers than the things that come out of them =S
Yeah siege tanks were what killed bunkers.
Also I still didn't get exactly, do swarm host gets invisible by burrowing or not?
On October 23 2011 17:37 Xenomorph wrote: Lore wise protoss is the worst its ever been. The new units are nothing like protoss of old, and they seem really silly. Where are our cool bad ass units? What happened to the high temp? If any unit needs a remake its the high templar.
Replicant- Protoss units suck so we'll give you a cost ineffective way to be another race Oracle-Confusing, non attacking unit that will easily be countered by static defenses Tempest- Okay, if it actually does good enough ground damage (marine counter anyone?)
Zergs looking okay, terran...is decent I suppose dont really need additions. This expansion just makes me sad-face on where they are taking protoss. I am actually more happy about the nexus changes than the actual units.
What's wrong with the High Templar? LOL
Storm=Good
Everything else about HT=Bad
They need a defensive measure that can cloak them or something...or at least buff their base unit speed or give back amulet. There are so many different things you could do but still leave storm intact.
No they don't. They're already amazingly powerful units that still to this day are underused. Extremely powerful. Grab a warp prism if you want them to be more mobile/safe.
On October 24 2011 03:17 Big J wrote: Nexus: Ouch. Mass recall + blink just seems so strong lategame. Go in, kill a base - recall, do it again to the next base - recall - ... Constant pressure in PvX incoming!
I think the "constant pressure" is exactly what they're aiming for. Protoss has to have really good timing with their attacks or they just lose. This leads to heavy turtle protoss gameplay and timing attack oriented strategies.
I mean, it's not anything new either. Nydus worms let you retreat all your army. Mass OL drops give the same result. How fair is it that zerg can doom drop their entire army in your base and then when you respond they just pick up and run? Same with terran. Both these races already make their dropping units anyway. Overlords are supply-free and give supply. Terrans already make medivacs for healing.
Mass warp prism and adding them into your army is not an option so stickin a mass recall that's grounded to the nexus is a great idea and should balance out the other 2 races options with mass retreating. And will hopefully flesh out protoss macro play. And the arc shield seems to aim to aid forge expands too (I am 100% sure they will make the ability require a forge so that cheeses with it can be scouted).
On October 24 2011 03:17 Big J wrote: Nexus: Ouch. Mass recall + blink just seems so strong lategame. Go in, kill a base - recall, do it again to the next base - recall - ... Constant pressure in PvX incoming!
I think the "constant pressure" is exactly what they're aiming for. Protoss has to have really good timing with their attacks or they just lose. This leads to heavy turtle protoss gameplay and timing attack oriented strategies.
I mean, it's not anything new either. Nydus worms let you retreat all your army. Mass OL drops give the same result. How fair is it that zerg can doom drop their entire army in your base and then when you respond they just pick up and run? Same with terran. Both these races already make their dropping units anyway. Overlords are supply-free and give supply. Terrans already make medivacs for healing.
Mass warp prism and adding them into your army is not an option so stickin a mass recall that's grounded to the nexus is a great idea and should balance out the other 2 races options with mass retreating. And will hopefully flesh out protoss macro play. And the arc shield seems to aim to aid forge expands too (I am 100% sure they will make the ability require a forge so that cheeses with it can be scouted).
Sry, I didn't complain! I just said what I thought, and that it might be very powerful.
Also I don't like your arguing. How fair is it that Zerg can doomdrop and Protoss can't? Well how fair is it that Protoss can warp in and Terran can't? The races are different, there is no need to even that out, as long as the game stays fun and balanced.
On October 24 2011 03:17 Big J wrote: Nexus: Ouch. Mass recall + blink just seems so strong lategame. Go in, kill a base - recall, do it again to the next base - recall - ... Constant pressure in PvX incoming!
I think the "constant pressure" is exactly what they're aiming for. Protoss has to have really good timing with their attacks or they just lose. This leads to heavy turtle protoss gameplay and timing attack oriented strategies.
I mean, it's not anything new either. Nydus worms let you retreat all your army. Mass OL drops give the same result. How fair is it that zerg can doom drop their entire army in your base and then when you respond they just pick up and run? Same with terran. Both these races already make their dropping units anyway. Overlords are supply-free and give supply. Terrans already make medivacs for healing.
Mass warp prism and adding them into your army is not an option so stickin a mass recall that's grounded to the nexus is a great idea and should balance out the other 2 races options with mass retreating. And will hopefully flesh out protoss macro play. And the arc shield seems to aim to aid forge expands too (I am 100% sure they will make the ability require a forge so that cheeses with it can be scouted).
Sry, I didn't complain! I just said what I thought, and that it might be very powerful.
Also I don't like your arguing. How fair is it that Zerg can doomdrop and Protoss can't? Well how fair is it that Protoss can warp in and Terran can't? The races are different, there is no need to even that out, as long as the game stays fun and balanced.
OK maybe should not argue "fairness" just saying the idea of easy retreat isn't new to the game.
I just wish they'd remove collosus and add something similar to reaver, very slow, very high damaga -> needs micro with warp prism for optimal use and can be used to harrass Also maybe it'd be nice if that unit had friendly fire so you couldn't add it to your deathball easily.
Protoss is still that boring ass deathball race and if the recall on Nexus has a radius as big as motherships's things just get worse.
At least it seems Protoss will stay underpowered in HotS with these new units right now, Zerg deathball gets even harder to beat and no counters against MMM added, on the other hand TvP mech probably viable now :D
The swarmhost is just about the worst thing I could imagine for zerg. It's just a boring unit all around and it won' t control space at all. Hell, the shredder would be a better zerg unit than a terran one, I mean that thing burrows too!
Ultralisk charge is going to be fun. Bad players will target the front and block their army just like they do now, while better players will target the rear of the enemy army blocking them from escaping. Could be cool.
On October 23 2011 17:23 HALFKNOT wrote: lol, you really like the swarm host? did you see them in action? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fedMEz-M-M they shoot 2 units / 17 seconds. i can only imagine a pack of stimpacked marines killing them instantly with a scan.
Look at them in this vid, they are just destroying mineral lines... not.
Come on, you can clearly see that a pair of those Locusts kills an scv in 4-5 seconds. You can't judge the damage when the video shows like 5 seconds of attacking lol
idk why people don't like swarm host, the little things are 110 freaking hp, and good attack (it's 16 attack 0.8 speed i believe). it's a very good siege unit, for both offensie and defensive use. It'll be extremely useful to break choke points/contains.
The zerg units are exactly what they needed - units that give them positional advantage or nullifies the enemy's positional advantage. gives them way more flexibility in both offense and defense.
Unfortunately the new Protoss units show exactly what I've feared for some time now: Blizzard does not have a solid understanding on how they want Protoss to be played. When you look at Terran and Zerg it's easy to get the overall design philosophy, when you look at Protoss you just get confused. It's like they designed Terran and Zerg and then added Protoss as an after thought.
Of the new units I think Tempest is the most interesting, the other two will not make into the game in this form.
Why does terran need the shredder if there are planetarys and bunkers? I thought they had enough defensive units/structures o_O Protoss would have quite a lot of casters an attacking unit might have been the better choice imo. The swarmhost seems just like a burrowed broodlord just weaker and so far i think the dmg is to low to really bust a choke but we wil see cause the general ideas are just starting to get developed so the units are balanced and uselfull (hopefully )
I just don't get that "This is going to be awesome" - feeling with the proposed protoss units. I can think of a few uses for them (making gateway timings stronger, by screwing with production using the Oracle), but they just feel kinda lame...
Let me wrap this up for u ... Protoss gets kicked in the balls again... -2 units + 2.5 units that are almost useless(yes replicant isn't even a unit...) Usefulness: 1/5 Zerg gets flying defiler(HELL YEAH) and lurker that has gone back in evolution(well it is not as bad as replicant) so as zerg I don't complain to much. Lack of cheap and fairly fast detection worries me tho keep overseer with no abilities. Usefulness: 4/5 Terran gets optimus prime... this is awsome... cheaper more mobile Thor (or a Goliath) and a spider mine that doesn't blow. Lets mention that no units are removed and that tor is now the dadyship(or just big daddy). Fuck YEAH I'm switching to terran . Rip prottos, Zerg hf. Usefulness: 5/5
I'm underwhelmed by the Zerg stuff. Overseers going is a little worrying given the need for cheap detection. Love having a siege unit with the swarm hosts but I hate the idea of the dmg being done through the locusts. The really slow rate of fire along with the unit probably being 3 like a tank means you would probably need to mass a group of 4-5+ like in the demo videos for them to be effective at holding pressure. They can't be like that hero tank the Terran have that can just hold a ramp super effectively. Also it is going to make z vs z a bigger headache given we can't wall off. The spellcaster could be awesome. No idea why Terran need more control, especially to stop ling runbys given PF's are pretty good at that.
I don't necessarily think the protoss units will fix protoss problems, but I think the "mass recall" ability is gonna make low league players be more aggressive, ofcourse it's gonna help diamond and up also but I think many low league protosses have problems with attacking
On October 23 2011 06:08 Geovu wrote: Who else is going to try to go mass marine as Protoss as soon as the expansion comes out?
Vyper looks a bit silly, all the Terran units walk on 2 legs now, and Carriers ()and MofoShips got removed, but I'm still looking forward to having real Stargate units.
200 gas per marine?
Good luck with that.
Replicate scv get Terran tech build cheapest unit you can since you spent time and 600/200 to even get started? Yeah, I agree though not as dumb as you said still dumb.
On October 24 2011 11:57 weishime wrote: I'm underwhelmed by the Zerg stuff. Overseers going is a little worrying given the need for cheap detection. Love having a siege unit with the swarm hosts but I hate the idea of the dmg being done through the locusts. The really slow rate of fire along with the unit probably being 3 like a tank means you would probably need to mass a group of 4-5+ like in the demo videos for them to be effective at holding pressure. They can't be like that hero tank the Terran have that can just hold a ramp super effectively. Also it is going to make z vs z a bigger headache given we can't wall off. The spellcaster could be awesome. No idea why Terran need more control, especially to stop ling runbys given PF's are pretty good at that.
Really? I think the HOTS Zerg will be terrifying. If anything I think they might be a bit too strong (total speculation at this point). I think they did a good job with the Zerg stuff, I am just thinking "how am I going to deal with all THAT".
I think they did do a poor job of showing off the swarm hosts. They used a tiny amount of them, didn't really show them being used with anything else and they 'sieged' all 3 at once, rather than staggering the deployment to get a more constant stream. I think in number and staggered they would be effective (again just rampant speculation).
On October 23 2011 10:36 Mentalizor wrote: So... Sorry for being P-biased but I have to ask - since David Kim himself pointed out P is having some issues lately...
T are getting an alternative use for hellions + new useful units on the cost of the thor - being a rarer (yet stronger) superunit Z are getting more very versatile units P are getting 2 gimmicky units and the tempest - while losing carrier and mothership.
Anything released about T and Z losing units? 'Cuz honestly this is David Kim (again) saying one thing - but doing the opposite
The overseer is leaving because it was a lame unit idea from the beginning. You can't make a caster that has both 0 population requirement and has good spells.
The Corruptor is getting a new ability that will hopefully make it more multi-dimensional. They're doing this rather than outright removing it like they were talking about before.
The Carrier and Mothership are leaving because no one uses them and they can't really find a use for them. The Mothership's Mass recall is being moved to the nexus (an AWESOME change just btw.) And the tempest is an overall better unit than the carrier.
The only thing really being removed here is the mass cloaking field the mothership provided, and to be honest that was never really a big deal to begin with in the super late game, as well as the vortex ability which was never really much good to begin with either.
I'd love for them to edit the Mothership, give it some new abilities and keep it in because I think Protoss having a super unit is a good idea, but as it is right now it's neither extremely helpful nor a particularly fun unit to use.
The vortex? Lol... In super super late game I'd still archon toilet zergs... And I'm pretty high master EU... Sure, it got slightly nerfed... But a few weeks ago I did a 200/200 vs 200/200 archon toilet against broods, infestors, roaches and the whole thing... I lost like 8 supply while he lost 80... Now, I'll admit... this is broken as hell... But it's working!
I honestly don't mind them removing the carrier. I never used it. But the mothership... I'm really puzzled... + the mass recall into an enemy main is an offensive move - where now the nexus will have it as a defensive move instead - which requires we save up energy which I'm not doing untill I've got 3/3/3 and all the tech - so... for 30mins I wont be using this... GREAT!... oh wait... no it isn't -.-
The vortex? Lol... In super super late game I'd still archon toilet zergs... And I'm pretty high master EU... Sure, it got slightly nerfed... But a few weeks ago I did a 200/200 vs 200/200 archon toilet against broods, infestors, roaches and the whole thing... I lost like 8 supply while he lost 80... Now, I'll admit... this is broken as hell... But it's working!
You should have lost hard. neural parasite mothership, vortex half of HIS army, crush the other half.
On October 23 2011 06:08 Geovu wrote: Who else is going to try to go mass marine as Protoss as soon as the expansion comes out?
Vyper looks a bit silly, all the Terran units walk on 2 legs now, and Carriers ()and MofoShips got removed, but I'm still looking forward to having real Stargate units.
200 gas per marine?
Good luck with that.
Replicate scv get Terran tech build cheapest unit you can since you spent time and 600/200 to even get started? Yeah, I agree though not as dumb as you said still dumb.
Actually you are just going to spend 450/200, since you don't need to make CC to start making supply depot which allows you to build barracks.
On October 24 2011 05:55 Pred8oar wrote: Why does terran need the shredder if there are planetarys and bunkers? I thought they had enough defensive units/structures o_O Protoss would have quite a lot of casters an attacking unit might have been the better choice imo. The swarmhost seems just like a burrowed broodlord just weaker and so far i think the dmg is to low to really bust a choke but we wil see cause the general ideas are just starting to get developed so the units are balanced and uselfull (hopefully )
I completely agree, I don't think T needs any more static D -- the amount they have already makes me want to kill babies.
Also, I don't think they need anything that kills workers via drops even faster than stim marines, so...yeah.
On October 24 2011 05:55 Pred8oar wrote: Why does terran need the shredder if there are planetarys and bunkers? I thought they had enough defensive units/structures o_O Protoss would have quite a lot of casters an attacking unit might have been the better choice imo. The swarmhost seems just like a burrowed broodlord just weaker and so far i think the dmg is to low to really bust a choke but we wil see cause the general ideas are just starting to get developed so the units are balanced and uselfull (hopefully )
I completely agree, I don't think T needs any more static D -- the amount they have already makes me want to kill babies.
Also, I don't think they need anything that kills workers via drops even faster than stim marines, so...yeah.
It takes like 8 seconds for those things to root down, if you can't move your freaking drones by then, you have no excuse, + 1 spine crawler and those things are dead, I doubt they have more than 50 hp.
Poll: Do you think these T units fill the problems of the race as a whole? Yes (1109) 69% ... Poll: Do you think these Z units fill the problems of the race as a whole? Yes (1240) 76% ... Poll: Do you think these P units fill the problems of the race as a whole? No (1455) 79%
No? So... I guess I'd be moving away from Protoss then.... :/
The vortex? Lol... In super super late game I'd still archon toilet zergs... And I'm pretty high master EU... Sure, it got slightly nerfed... But a few weeks ago I did a 200/200 vs 200/200 archon toilet against broods, infestors, roaches and the whole thing... I lost like 8 supply while he lost 80... Now, I'll admit... this is broken as hell... But it's working!
You should have lost hard. neural parasite mothership, vortex half of HIS army, crush the other half.
Uhm if you don't have colossus by then to kill NP you are doing it wrong. I mean when it was 9 range it was possible but not a chance now that it is 7 range.
Tempest is just a big phoenix, i liked the carrier better. Replicant isn't even a protoss unit really...so i guess playing with other races units will be good Oracle is kinda cool, looks like a solid harrassing unit
I'm not really excited for them overall, but i'm sure my opinion will change by release as i haven't even played with them yet.
So with this poll you can see that Terran and Zerg players are optimistic about the new unit change. While Toss is mad because they don't get any more OP units like Colossus, HT/Archon, Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, Immortals, Phoenix, Void Rays, Motherships, Carriers, DT, Photon cannons, and PROBES!
EPT![[image loading]](http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/images/johnny5.jpg)
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