Meh, I think people are only disappointed about the Protoss units because they cannot see a clear way to use them every game.
Really the only two abilities that you would use in the same way from game to game are the Oracles Tech Spying and Mineral blocking, which is kinda underwhelming if you just stop there.
But the strongest abilities, Phase Shift and Replicating will almost undoubtedly used differently from game to game. There is no standard way of incorporating them into your play but rather abilities that require game sense and knowledge to truly maximize the potential.
At the end of the day, numbers can be tweaked, but the concept of the unit is what really matters. IMO, I love the Oracle and the Replicant--there is no easy way to use them and there will always be a situation in a game where they have the potential to do a lot of damage. They are units designed to seize opportunities and reward intelligent players .
Blizzard went overboard on the "protoss needs a harras unit" idea. If you look at terran and zerg, the way they harras is with marine drops and mutalisks. Both of these units, in addition to being great harrass, also play key roles in battles too. Meanwhile, the oracle is a purely harass unit that can't do anything other than block minerals and stop production for a little bit. It is completely useless in an actual fight, and it can't even kill scvs. Please, give protoss a mobile harassing unit that can also be used in an actual fight. Not phoenix, which need to use graviton beam to be useful, and especially not oracles.
For once the SC2 community agrees with me in just about every question. I hope they seriously reconsider the toss units they are adding, because its really going to hurt the game as a whole. The mass recall will be rather baller though, I can see that getting a lot of use. Cheap immortals (damage and strength reduced a bit to fit the new cost) and zealot speed would go a long way, much more than three new air units will.
On October 23 2011 13:26 kofman wrote: Blizzard went overboard on the "protoss needs a harras unit" idea. If you look at terran and zerg, the way they harras is with marine drops and mutalisks. Both of these units, in addition to being great harrass, also play key roles in battles too. Meanwhile, the oracle is a purely harass unit that can't do anything other than block minerals and stop production for a little bit. It is completely useless in an actual fight, and it can't even kill scvs. Please, give protoss a mobile harassing unit that can also be used in an actual fight. Not phoenix, which need to use graviton beam to be useful, and especially not oracles.
So what if it can't kill SCVs
Given the right situation, doing something like disabling all of the Terrans Starports before a Colossus push is stronger than killing 10+ SCVs.
People seem to have this ridiculous idea that the only good way of harassing is worker harassing. I think this is a concept that will change come HOTS and the introduction of the Oracle.
I don't think people realize how much damage is actually inflicted if you stop your opponent from making specific units for a period of time and how bad of a position it can put them if you are smart about it.
Sure it won't be the same as having them slowly die due to lack of economy, but being forced to build but Zealots for the next minute and a half in a PvP can be scarier than losing half your probes.
It is even more scary when used with a tactical mind, worker harass slows down production but Phase Shifting completely limits production to a screeching halt. You can easily see the Oracle being used in ways beyond what a typical hellion can do.
Something like hindering your opponents Stalker count via Cybernetics and using that time to regain Air control, stopping their early medivac production off their Reacot/Starport, forcing whatever early push they had in mind to come far too late to deal any damage. The only problem is though that there is nothing standard you can do every game, what you choose to harass will most likely be different every game
On October 23 2011 11:45 Ownos wrote: Tempest is a great addition to the death ball. AOE on the ground AND air? LOL zerg tears incoming.
I do like that they are allowing it to be something you want to mass so that going stargate first doesn't mean you need to immediately tech switch out of it. It might be worth making a fleet beacon and continue on the path of stargate play instead of doing a U-turn and going straight for colossus or HT.
Replicator = dumb, gimmicky, hard to balance, and just another version of mind control without actually insta-killing the enemy unit.
Oracle... this is our new raider unit?
Protoss got the short end of the stick on this one. This on top of removing 2 units, one being a long beloved unit that many a starcrafter was wishing would be made useful (carrier).
I'd still take Storm over the Tempest, it's much more convenient and robust, and like the Tempest's apparently intended role you can just leave a few ht's behind. One nice touch as far as I know is that I *guess* you wouldn't need to make blind immortals vs a muta ling zerg who will remax on roaches, which a strong air to ground unit obviously does well against. Other than that, Tempests only serve to reward inferior mechanics.
Blizzard: If you guys love the aoe ground function of colossus, then you'll LOVE Tempests!
On October 23 2011 11:45 Ownos wrote: Tempest is a great addition to the death ball. AOE on the ground AND air? LOL zerg tears incoming.
I do like that they are allowing it to be something you want to mass so that going stargate first doesn't mean you need to immediately tech switch out of it. It might be worth making a fleet beacon and continue on the path of stargate play instead of doing a U-turn and going straight for colossus or HT.
Replicator = dumb, gimmicky, hard to balance, and just another version of mind control without actually insta-killing the enemy unit.
Oracle... this is our new raider unit?
Protoss got the short end of the stick on this one. This on top of removing 2 units, one being a long beloved unit that many a starcrafter was wishing would be made useful (carrier).
I'd still take Storm over the Tempest, it's much more convenient and robust, and like the Tempest's apparently intended role you can just leave a few ht's behind. Tempests only serves to reward inferior mechanics.
Storm does a lot of FF damage when fighting Muta and is super inefficient at times. It can be frustrating tryin to Storm muta who just keep flying away constantly.
The Tempest rewards Inferior mechanics the same way a Thor or an Infestor rewards inferior mechanics. Yes, if Terran didn't have the Thor they still might be a way for them to deal with Mutalisks with some good use of Marines, pressure timings, etc etc but at the end of the day, at least for the sake of game design--there SHOULD be a unit that is considered a standard response.
It is the same way for Protoss. Right now they get by with Templars and Blink, but there is no clear way to deal with muta. Some Protoss get the urge to kill the opponent Zerg the moment they see Muta, others like to build up a large three base army and get ready for the oncoming base trade scenario and a few Protoss I've soon also like to go the Archon Templar route, trying to weather the Mutalisk phase and force a somewhat standard game
But really, aside from getting Blink, virtually every other Protoss handles muta different, that is because just as David Kim said in the design panel, when your opponent has a LOT of muta, Protoss doesn't actually have a straight forward means of responding to them
Replicants could be awesome if they can switch back to Replicant form. Imagine having a bunch of replicants and turning them all to Phoenixes to ward off Mutalisk harass, then turning them into Immortals when you intend to push out... If you can keep the Replicants' versatility, then it could be an awesome unit. But if it's a one-time transformation, then it's really hardly worth getting.
It's too early to judge for the Oracle, as far as I'm concerned.
As for the Tempest, it sounds something like a flying Colossus. Given that the Colossus is already the source of all evil, I can't say I'm especially eager to see it.
On October 23 2011 10:29 BandonBanshee wrote: The swarm host is shit. Zerg needed something with defensive capabilities that could hold ground......this does neither. It spawns 2 visible broodlings every like 20 seconds and doesn't do splash damage. I actually cant think of scenarios where this unit is good.
Ugh im tired of shit posts like this. I take it your referring to this video.
Firstly they are locusts and they do 16 every .87 seconds, with 90 hp. Much stronger than brood lings. Also they shoot 4 at a time, not 2.
2nd Look at the way they are stupidly arranged that's literally the most ineffective, way to siege that natural. All the locusts are clumped up taking the maximum amount of splash they can from 5 tanks. yet they are still making progress....
If a player were to arrange them in an arc that would reduce the splash taken, and increase their effectiveness.
Also your not obligated to burrow them all at once, so you only get a wave every 24 seconds, you can burrow them in halves or thirds, to make a more constant stream of them. Who knows, if the locusts move faster on creep you could have an overlord creeping just before them to accelerate the locusts.
Lastly this isn't a unit you just mass up, and attack with its a support unit for your army, nothing more. Its the kind of unit that helps zerg to over run a position with sheer numbers, just as Z is intend to operate.
Not saying is perfect, but at least try to think of the possibilities before crying to the internet about it.
On October 23 2011 13:51 Mobius_1 wrote: "Like" may not be the best word to use, because I voted "no" for the Zerg options because I'm scared of facing them.
I like the Terran ones, full on mech has always been a bit weak, the additions seem to really complement Siege Tanks.
The Protoss ones seem a bit gimmicky, although they didn't lack direct confrontation units in the first place so the additions are alright.
Protoss has always been a gimmicky race since star 1 so it fits.
On October 23 2011 10:29 BandonBanshee wrote: The swarm host is shit. Zerg needed something with defensive capabilities that could hold ground......this does neither. It spawns 2 visible broodlings every like 20 seconds and doesn't do splash damage. I actually cant think of scenarios where this unit is good.
Firstly they are locusts and they do 16 every .87 seconds, with 90 hp. Much stronger than brood lings. Also they shoot 4 at a time, not 2.
2nd Look at the way they are stupidly arranged that's literally the most ineffective, way to siege that natural. All the locusts are clumped up taking the maximum amount of splash they can from 5 tanks. yet they are still making progress....
If a player were to arrange them in an arc that would reduce the splash taken, and increase their effectiveness.
Also your not obligated to burrow them all at once, so you only get a wave every 24 seconds, you can burrow them in halves or thirds, to make a more constant stream of them. Who knows, if the locusts move faster on creep you could have an overlord creeping just before them to accelerate the locusts.
Lastly this isn't a unit you just mass up, and attack with its a support unit for your army, nothing more. Its the kind of unit that helps zerg to over run a position with sheer numbers, just as Z is intend to operate.
Not saying is perfect, but at least try to think of the possibilities before crying to the internet about it.
Yeah, that video is so underwhelming.
Imagine if the Zerg in that situation had a bunch of Hydras and some creep there. Everytime the Locust spawn he could use them as cover for the Hydralisks to also deal damage and retreat without taking any damage themselves.
IMO, if Zerg just try use it like a Siege tank and expect it to be able to do something by itself then they will fail. But if they use it with the rest of their Zerg Arsenal then it can be incredibly strong.
Remember the old Hydralisk/Spine Crawler pushes? Now imagine the same push but with Swarm Hosts and Hydralisks. Instead of using the Spines and Hydra to force your way into the Protoss base you could use the Locust as cover for the Hydra, force engagements where the opponent has to waste FF's and use them as cover to spread creep and harass with your Hydras with little fear of taking actual damage
"Hey, instead of making protoss a better race and giving them really cool units, how about we just give them a unit that copies the other races. That way, we don't have to be creative and can just blame the protoss players for not using the replicator well!"
On October 23 2011 11:45 Ownos wrote: Tempest is a great addition to the death ball. AOE on the ground AND air? LOL zerg tears incoming.
I do like that they are allowing it to be something you want to mass so that going stargate first doesn't mean you need to immediately tech switch out of it. It might be worth making a fleet beacon and continue on the path of stargate play instead of doing a U-turn and going straight for colossus or HT.
Replicator = dumb, gimmicky, hard to balance, and just another version of mind control without actually insta-killing the enemy unit.
Oracle... this is our new raider unit?
Protoss got the short end of the stick on this one. This on top of removing 2 units, one being a long beloved unit that many a starcrafter was wishing would be made useful (carrier).
I'd still take Storm over the Tempest, it's much more convenient and robust, and like the Tempest's apparently intended role you can just leave a few ht's behind. Tempests only serves to reward inferior mechanics.
Storm does a lot of FF damage when fighting Muta and is super inefficient at times. It can be frustrating tryin to Storm muta who just keep flying away constantly.
The Tempest rewards Inferior mechanics the same way a Thor or an Infestor rewards inferior mechanics. Yes, if Terran didn't have the Thor they still might be a way for them to deal with Mutalisks with some good use of Marines, pressure timings, etc etc but at the end of the day, at least for the sake of game design--there SHOULD be a unit that is considered a standard response.
It is the same way for Protoss. Right now they get by with Templars and Blink, but there is no clear way to deal with muta. Some Protoss get the urge to kill the opponent Zerg the moment they see Muta, others like to build up a large three base army and get ready for the oncoming base trade scenario and a few Protoss I've soon also like to go the Archon Templar route, trying to weather the Mutalisk phase and force a somewhat standard game
But really, aside from getting Blink, virtually every other Protoss handles muta different, that is because just as David Kim said in the design panel, when your opponent has a LOT of muta, Protoss doesn't actually have a straight forward means of responding to them
FF damage is irrelevant. Unless the mutas fly over your mineral line and you decide to storm it, I pretty much expect every HT the muta's fly into to die as it storms, if it's not from the mutalisks themselves. Storm does 80 damage, mutas have 120 hit points. You can whiff a few storms and still wipe them out with plenty left.
Storm is the clear way to deal with mutas, whether its 8 or 40, it's equally effective.
Does the name Gantrithor rings a bell to anyone in the Protoss community? It was Tassadar's ship, with which he killed the freaking Overmind. And, it was a Carrier. The Carrier is one of the symbols of the Protoss race, other than being a really cool idea as for gameplay: fact is that, sadly, as of the current metagame, it has no competitive place. But then you just cut it off? I think this isn't even a thing that should be addressed in an expansion, but on a ordinary game patch.
Same thought goes to the Mothership, which is a good concept, and it had a lot of cool abilities and uses in the development; besides the idea of a uber-unit is cool — I just think every race should have their own unique 1 of a kind uber unit. What they say about: « We feel we have satisfied the uber-unit fetish » with the new Thor, is just bullshit.
All in all, from a mere artistic point of view all the designs of the new units are really bad. Except maybe for the Viper, which is a flying defiler anyways. The Warhound is an SCV on steroids and two out of three protoss units are… …balls? Like sentries with different shapes?
As for the gameplay I really don't get the thought process behind this.
TERRAN:
Did Terran really need any more space controlling units? And doing it cheaply? Besides the Siege Tanks, their inherent ability to wall themselves in, Salvagable Bunkers, Planetary Fortresses, and the Sensor Tower which makes it easier to realize when a counter attack is coming… did they really need anymore? I'm with those who say it's just going to increase the ball-of-death-approach rather than decrease it. Rather, Zergs and Protoss needed some space controlling units, which they currently lack.
What's with the new Hellion? They just didn't feel it right for Terran to micro? It makes damn sense that a freaking alien superhuman cuts you in half with his psi-blades if you engage him in a straight fight. If zerg must give you this "swarming" feeling, Protosses must give you this "overpowering" feeling, I guess.
ZERG:
While the Ultras suffered really badly from pathing problems, it doesn't make any sense that they pop underground, dig really fast and pop out again. Why don't they go superfast underground all the time, then? Besides, it's basically a blink. Perhaps they could have given them a step over other units for DPS kind of inherent ability.
And the Viper is going to VERY CHEAPLY, PERMANENTLY grant detection to ANY unit? Really?
PROTOSS:
I guess the Oracle is a cool concept; might need to be worked on the mechanics, but it's a cool concept (though I LOL'd at the post with the discussion between Artanis and Selendis).
The addition of Nexus abilities are really a cool idea, because, gameplay-wise, it gives you more versatility on what you have to choose. Choosing what to Chronoboost is already a decisive factor in competitive play, this could add some extra flavour.
As for the abilities themselves… meh… I don't know about them.
The Recall makes a lot of sense actually and it is really cool. Though I guess it didn't really ever made much sense to me that I can warp in units in five seconds from other planets, and I can't warp my units around (sure, it costs loads to do it; but we warp from Aiur or Shakuras, which are kind of hidden worlds).
I think what Protoss lack the most is the hit-and-run kind of drop capabilities. Terrans make a lot of Medivacs anyways and they can fit a nice troop inside them; if the drop situation gets tense, they load and run. The same goes for Overlords with ventral sacs and speed (I mean, you're going to have loads of Overlords anyway) and for Nydus Worms. Sure we have Warp Prisms, but when you do drop, aside from the 4 zealots you can reload, you must commit: you can warp from you 7 Gates, but then you cannot go away.
To me, it makes logical sense that units warp in in Pylons power fields (Nexuses don't grant Power). It would be a cool logical upgrade/building to allow you to Recall to any pylon, perhaps at a mineral/gas expense and with, like the Warpgate warp-in animation, and maybe like 12 seconds or so? Really, it sounds OP, but if you think of it I'm basically saying the same thing of a Nydus Worm, except that, instead of JUST HAVING VISION of a place (which is not difficult for Zergs with Overlords) you have to physically build a Pylon.
Besides, we really could use a flying shield battery of sort.
IN SHORT: I think the changes should be oriented to what the peculiar characteristic of a race is. As a Protoss, I think Shields and Warp-In mechanics are something that really defines our race, and that should really be worked on (instead of a replicant as pointed out by many) — that's why I think the Warp Prism is actually a badass idea. Give the Mothership Pylon power, or Shield Regeneration aura, or something. I mean, one should not deal with expansions thinking: « Gee, mass mutas are really an hassle late game for Protosses, we should give them an ANTI-MUTA unit. » (it's their words!)
These things should be fixed in balance patches!
The rest should be ideas that fit well in the lore, and in the uniqueness of each race gameplay.
And also as a last note, I really disagree with people saying we should wait for the units to come out to comment on them. I am 100% sure that, whatever, they'll balance them and the game will work and we'll enjoy it: because of the game awesome mechanics. This is not the point, the point is to make something that makes sense and addresses real issues in a logical way.
On October 23 2011 11:45 Ownos wrote: Tempest is a great addition to the death ball. AOE on the ground AND air? LOL zerg tears incoming.
I do like that they are allowing it to be something you want to mass so that going stargate first doesn't mean you need to immediately tech switch out of it. It might be worth making a fleet beacon and continue on the path of stargate play instead of doing a U-turn and going straight for colossus or HT.
Replicator = dumb, gimmicky, hard to balance, and just another version of mind control without actually insta-killing the enemy unit.
Oracle... this is our new raider unit?
Protoss got the short end of the stick on this one. This on top of removing 2 units, one being a long beloved unit that many a starcrafter was wishing would be made useful (carrier).
I'd still take Storm over the Tempest, it's much more convenient and robust, and like the Tempest's apparently intended role you can just leave a few ht's behind. Tempests only serves to reward inferior mechanics.
Storm does a lot of FF damage when fighting Muta and is super inefficient at times. It can be frustrating tryin to Storm muta who just keep flying away constantly.
The Tempest rewards Inferior mechanics the same way a Thor or an Infestor rewards inferior mechanics. Yes, if Terran didn't have the Thor they still might be a way for them to deal with Mutalisks with some good use of Marines, pressure timings, etc etc but at the end of the day, at least for the sake of game design--there SHOULD be a unit that is considered a standard response.
It is the same way for Protoss. Right now they get by with Templars and Blink, but there is no clear way to deal with muta. Some Protoss get the urge to kill the opponent Zerg the moment they see Muta, others like to build up a large three base army and get ready for the oncoming base trade scenario and a few Protoss I've soon also like to go the Archon Templar route, trying to weather the Mutalisk phase and force a somewhat standard game
But really, aside from getting Blink, virtually every other Protoss handles muta different, that is because just as David Kim said in the design panel, when your opponent has a LOT of muta, Protoss doesn't actually have a straight forward means of responding to them
FF damage is irrelevant. Unless the mutas fly over your mineral line and you decide to storm it, I pretty much expect every HT the muta's fly into to die as it storms, if it's not from the mutalisks themselves. Storm does 80 damage, mutas have 120 hit points. You can whiff a few storms and still wipe them out with plenty left.
Storm is the clear way to deal with mutas, whether its 8 or 40, it's equally effective.
Getting to storm off of 2 bases is the extremely hard part. Believe it or not, stalkers are pretty bad at dealing with mutalisks, even with blink. If you've ever actually played protoss against muta's, if you didn't open blink, and you didn't kill zerg before mutalisk came out, the game gets insanely difficult. You can see this even at the pro level, Muta's often force base trades against protoss, and almost always the zerg wins that. Muta's just aren't a very common opening because there is a timing that can be hit that 99% guarantees a kill. That's the main reason why you don't see them rushed very often vs. Protoss.
On October 23 2011 11:45 Ownos wrote: Tempest is a great addition to the death ball. AOE on the ground AND air? LOL zerg tears incoming.
I do like that they are allowing it to be something you want to mass so that going stargate first doesn't mean you need to immediately tech switch out of it. It might be worth making a fleet beacon and continue on the path of stargate play instead of doing a U-turn and going straight for colossus or HT.
Replicator = dumb, gimmicky, hard to balance, and just another version of mind control without actually insta-killing the enemy unit.
Oracle... this is our new raider unit?
Protoss got the short end of the stick on this one. This on top of removing 2 units, one being a long beloved unit that many a starcrafter was wishing would be made useful (carrier).
I'd still take Storm over the Tempest, it's much more convenient and robust, and like the Tempest's apparently intended role you can just leave a few ht's behind. Tempests only serves to reward inferior mechanics.
Storm does a lot of FF damage when fighting Muta and is super inefficient at times. It can be frustrating tryin to Storm muta who just keep flying away constantly.
The Tempest rewards Inferior mechanics the same way a Thor or an Infestor rewards inferior mechanics. Yes, if Terran didn't have the Thor they still might be a way for them to deal with Mutalisks with some good use of Marines, pressure timings, etc etc but at the end of the day, at least for the sake of game design--there SHOULD be a unit that is considered a standard response.
It is the same way for Protoss. Right now they get by with Templars and Blink, but there is no clear way to deal with muta. Some Protoss get the urge to kill the opponent Zerg the moment they see Muta, others like to build up a large three base army and get ready for the oncoming base trade scenario and a few Protoss I've soon also like to go the Archon Templar route, trying to weather the Mutalisk phase and force a somewhat standard game
But really, aside from getting Blink, virtually every other Protoss handles muta different, that is because just as David Kim said in the design panel, when your opponent has a LOT of muta, Protoss doesn't actually have a straight forward means of responding to them
FF damage is irrelevant. Unless the mutas fly over your mineral line and you decide to storm it, I pretty much expect every HT the muta's fly into to die as it storms, if it's not from the mutalisks themselves. Storm does 80 damage, mutas have 120 hit points. You can whiff a few storms and still wipe them out with plenty left.
Storm is the clear way to deal with mutas, whether its 8 or 40, it's equally effective.
Storm is eventually what you will need, but when there are a lot of Mutas flying around it is hard to get enough to hit every Muta.
I've played enough Archon/Templar against Muta to know that Storm is extremely frustrating to use against Mutalisks, especially when they never ever engage in direct combat, always using hit and run tactics. Sometimes the Muta even kill the Templars you hve lying around before you even get a chance to use them as they swoop by so fast. When the inevitable base trade happens, tring to make every last Storm count and lugging the slow ass Templars around make you want to gouge your eyes out
It is not even on the same level as something like an Infestor or a Thor. Storm also doesn't have the same unforgiving nature as Thors/Fungal for the Zerg.
David Kim was pretty spot on with his points about Mutalisks and Mass air in General against Protoss. Storm is ultimately something you use in combination with other things like Archons and Blink Stalkers to forge a type of response but there is nothing that is close to as easy to use and respond with as an Infestor or Thor for Protoss
I really dont understand why they decided to make a worker friendly unit... i mean seriously in BW protoss just completely obliterated planets when they were infested by zerg. why would they NOW of all times want to be worker friendly? just give us a decent harass unit and all toss would be happy and not some dodgy *worker friendly* unit ==
There's only one unit I'm unsure about right now, and that's the Replicator. I could see it being very overpowered or very underpowered. With the variety of units you could replicate, I'm sure there could end up being balance issues somehow, especially if it's too cheap. But if it is too expensive, then it'll be a waste. Hopefully Blizzard can find a sweet spot for the cost.
The rest of the units I'm mostly happy about. I'm sure that there will be a lot of tweaking done, anyway, so I'm not too worried about units like the Oracle right now. I'll miss the Carrier because it was iconic (albeit not used much), but I'm fine with the Mothership and Overseer being replaced. The Mothership was changed so much and never ended up being interesting, and the Overseer certainly isn't as intriguing as the Viper, which will really change Zerg for the better.
On October 23 2011 11:45 Ownos wrote: Tempest is a great addition to the death ball. AOE on the ground AND air? LOL zerg tears incoming.
I do like that they are allowing it to be something you want to mass so that going stargate first doesn't mean you need to immediately tech switch out of it. It might be worth making a fleet beacon and continue on the path of stargate play instead of doing a U-turn and going straight for colossus or HT.
Replicator = dumb, gimmicky, hard to balance, and just another version of mind control without actually insta-killing the enemy unit.
Oracle... this is our new raider unit?
Protoss got the short end of the stick on this one. This on top of removing 2 units, one being a long beloved unit that many a starcrafter was wishing would be made useful (carrier).
I'd still take Storm over the Tempest, it's much more convenient and robust, and like the Tempest's apparently intended role you can just leave a few ht's behind. Tempests only serves to reward inferior mechanics.
Storm does a lot of FF damage when fighting Muta and is super inefficient at times. It can be frustrating tryin to Storm muta who just keep flying away constantly.
The Tempest rewards Inferior mechanics the same way a Thor or an Infestor rewards inferior mechanics. Yes, if Terran didn't have the Thor they still might be a way for them to deal with Mutalisks with some good use of Marines, pressure timings, etc etc but at the end of the day, at least for the sake of game design--there SHOULD be a unit that is considered a standard response.
It is the same way for Protoss. Right now they get by with Templars and Blink, but there is no clear way to deal with muta. Some Protoss get the urge to kill the opponent Zerg the moment they see Muta, others like to build up a large three base army and get ready for the oncoming base trade scenario and a few Protoss I've soon also like to go the Archon Templar route, trying to weather the Mutalisk phase and force a somewhat standard game
But really, aside from getting Blink, virtually every other Protoss handles muta different, that is because just as David Kim said in the design panel, when your opponent has a LOT of muta, Protoss doesn't actually have a straight forward means of responding to them
FF damage is irrelevant. Unless the mutas fly over your mineral line and you decide to storm it, I pretty much expect every HT the muta's fly into to die as it storms, if it's not from the mutalisks themselves. Storm does 80 damage, mutas have 120 hit points. You can whiff a few storms and still wipe them out with plenty left.
Storm is the clear way to deal with mutas, whether its 8 or 40, it's equally effective.
Getting to storm off of 2 bases is the extremely hard part. Believe it or not, stalkers are pretty bad at dealing with mutalisks, even with blink. If you've ever actually played protoss against muta's, if you didn't open blink, and you didn't kill zerg before mutalisk came out, the game gets insanely difficult. You can see this even at the pro level, Muta's often force base trades against protoss, and almost always the zerg wins that. Muta's just aren't a very common opening because there is a timing that can be hit that 99% guarantees a kill. That's the main reason why you don't see them rushed very often vs. Protoss.
Storm isn't hard at all to grab on 2 base. If you aren't making 8 or more sentries, or colossus, or stargate, or double forging, they're dirt cheap. Believe it or not, stalkers DEAL with low number mutalisks, which is all they need to do until you can get HT's in each base and start pushing. What they DON'T deal well with is the 3-4+ hatch production of speedlings that often accompany mutalisks and crush pushes with out storms to keep them from the stalkers.
They haven't been common until now, within the new meta game, and the fact zergs are finally willing to put a roach warren down just in case.
On October 23 2011 11:45 Ownos wrote: Tempest is a great addition to the death ball. AOE on the ground AND air? LOL zerg tears incoming.
I do like that they are allowing it to be something you want to mass so that going stargate first doesn't mean you need to immediately tech switch out of it. It might be worth making a fleet beacon and continue on the path of stargate play instead of doing a U-turn and going straight for colossus or HT.
Replicator = dumb, gimmicky, hard to balance, and just another version of mind control without actually insta-killing the enemy unit.
Oracle... this is our new raider unit?
Protoss got the short end of the stick on this one. This on top of removing 2 units, one being a long beloved unit that many a starcrafter was wishing would be made useful (carrier).
I'd still take Storm over the Tempest, it's much more convenient and robust, and like the Tempest's apparently intended role you can just leave a few ht's behind. Tempests only serves to reward inferior mechanics.
Storm does a lot of FF damage when fighting Muta and is super inefficient at times. It can be frustrating tryin to Storm muta who just keep flying away constantly.
The Tempest rewards Inferior mechanics the same way a Thor or an Infestor rewards inferior mechanics. Yes, if Terran didn't have the Thor they still might be a way for them to deal with Mutalisks with some good use of Marines, pressure timings, etc etc but at the end of the day, at least for the sake of game design--there SHOULD be a unit that is considered a standard response.
It is the same way for Protoss. Right now they get by with Templars and Blink, but there is no clear way to deal with muta. Some Protoss get the urge to kill the opponent Zerg the moment they see Muta, others like to build up a large three base army and get ready for the oncoming base trade scenario and a few Protoss I've soon also like to go the Archon Templar route, trying to weather the Mutalisk phase and force a somewhat standard game
But really, aside from getting Blink, virtually every other Protoss handles muta different, that is because just as David Kim said in the design panel, when your opponent has a LOT of muta, Protoss doesn't actually have a straight forward means of responding to them
FF damage is irrelevant. Unless the mutas fly over your mineral line and you decide to storm it, I pretty much expect every HT the muta's fly into to die as it storms, if it's not from the mutalisks themselves. Storm does 80 damage, mutas have 120 hit points. You can whiff a few storms and still wipe them out with plenty left.
Storm is the clear way to deal with mutas, whether its 8 or 40, it's equally effective.
Storm is eventually what you will need, but when there are a lot of Mutas flying around it is hard to get enough to hit every Muta.
I've played enough Archon/Templar against Muta to know that Storm is extremely frustrating to use against Mutalisks, especially when they never ever engage in direct combat, always using hit and run tactics. Sometimes the Muta even kill the Templars you hve lying around before you even get a chance to use them as they swoop by so fast. When the inevitable base trade happens, tring to make every last Storm count and lugging the slow ass Templars around make you want to gouge your eyes out
It is not even on the same level as something like an Infestor or a Thor. Storm also doesn't have the same unforgiving nature as Thors/Fungal for the Zerg.
David Kim was pretty spot on with his points about Mutalisks and Mass air in General against Protoss. Storm is ultimately something you use in combination with other things like Archons and Blink Stalkers to forge a type of response but there is nothing that is close to as easy to use and respond with as an Infestor or Thor for Protoss
At what point in the game are we talking about? 11-13 minutes when the mutas have hatched and have begun hitting your bases, or 18 minutes when theres 30-40+ and you apparently haven't done anything about it? You almost make the case that a zerg will split his mutas into multiple packs to avoid storms, which pretty much negates the power in which Mutas scale by number. SC2 is a battle of control. For very, obvious reasons, if a muta'ing player out-controls a Protoss going storm, then I would assume he should be rewarded.
You're also speaking within the perspective that the majority of protosses apparently suck and aren't fast enough to multi-task multiple engagements with HT's. You don't have to explain how muta's are used, I've played this game before.
The only point I can concede is that no, Protoss didn't have their own control friendly version of the Thor to deal with muta clumps. But the cost is the carrier, the Iconic T3 Protoss unit that was massively nerfed from Broodwar and completely neglected.
EPT
