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On October 23 2011 12:23 pezit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 12:08 Rorschach wrote:
Why don't they give back the arbiter as an air caster for toss instead of the silly overseer that wasn't working out for zerg?
Feels like Blizzard put next to no thought into the toss units...... On the contrary i think they put too much though into it, they want to come up with new ideas at all costs. And yeah sure the units are new ideas, too bad they're horrible.
Toss looses Carriers and Motherships and gets two "new" units that are badly designed AND a super expensive Corsair that comes way too late in the game for dealing Mutas.......
A unit that mimics other units? virtually no thought to come up with that....
Oracle? Its a recycled overseer with a better contaminate (in the beta overseers could gunk mineral lines) and a abilty to watch buildings for 2 mins?
So boring and virtually no thought into it......
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Like the new Terran units, warhound looks shit though. All three are designed to make Mech more viable in many situations which generally is a good thing imho.
Thor change is bad though, just dont like the concept of a hero unit in the game.
I like the Viper. It adds a lot to zerg gameplay, not yet sold on that hook ability though. Broodhost is kinda okay, but they srsly have to adjust the spawnrate.
Hate the new corrupter ability, hope it wont make it into release.
Oracle might be good, dont want to comment on that too much until we see it in the hands of good players to see what possibilities there are with it. Should replace the "looking into a building" ability for something more useful though.
Hate the replicantunit...will be pretty hard to balance all the different situations possible with this unit and i dislike the idea in general.
Hate the Tempest idea, i think its a pretty useless Unit. Would have prefered a fleetbeacon upgrade for phoenix to deal with (light) air better, probably like a little splash added in there or something. Then tweak carriermicro and make it generally viable again.
I like the removal of the mothership, but i would have prefered the addition of the arbiter instead of giving the nexus defensive recall only.
Overall these new units/changes won't deal with the current problems the protoss player have at the moment.
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Protoss isn't going anywhere whatsoever.
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On October 23 2011 12:36 Yosen3002 wrote:
Like the new Terran units, warhound looks shit though. All three are designed to make Mech more viable in many situations which generally is a good thing imho.
Thor change is bad though, just dont like the concept of a hero unit in the game.
I like the Viper. It adds a lot to zerg gameplay, not yet sold on that hook ability though. Broodhost is kinda okay, but they srsly have to adjust the spawnrate.
Hate the new corrupter ability, hope it wont make it into release.
Oracle might be good, dont want to comment on that too much until we see it in the hands of good players to see what possibilities there are with it.
Hate the replicantunit...will be pretty hard to balance all the different situations possible with this unit and i dislike the idea in general.
Hate the Tempest idea, i think its a pretty useless Unit. Would have prefered a fleetbeacon upgrade for phoenix to deal with (light) air better, probably like a little splash added in there or something. Then tweak carriermicro and make it generally viable again.
I like the removal of the mothership, but i would have prefered the addition of the arbiter instead of giving the nexus defensive recall only.
Your last two ideas are brilliant.... PXH that actually deal with mutas AND fix carriers (like they buffed Ultras and have consistently helped BCs out)
Also nexi recall will prob get nerfed to hell... Just replace the stupid oracle with an arbiter or even a raven like caster and toss would be tickled pink..........
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On October 23 2011 12:29 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +Dustin Browder shows he has absolutely no idea what makes a good RTS game. But what does it matter when his customers doesn't either, they'll buy it because there's a bunch of shiny new "cool" units. Browder was the lead designer on HotS, which you know, everyone here is still playing, and which has caused the western e-sports scene to explode in a way no other game has come close to doing. I think he knows a little bit more than you about how to design a great game, given that he, you know, already did it. I know he worked on C&C earlier and has stupid catchphrases like "terrible terrible damage" so he's easy to hate on, but the fact is SC2 was hands down the best RTS released since the original BW, and has had an impact on Western e-sports that goes so far beyond any other game.
SC2 got a headstart in e-sports because of its predecessor. If this game had been released with the name red alert 4 instead of starcraft 2 the game would never have been where it is today.
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I think the warhound looks cool, except for his rocket attack thing that looks like a slow moving spear.
Other terran units are 'okay'
Protoss got shafted , heres hoping something changed between now and then for you guys.
Zerg units look pretty good, the swarm host needs to spawn the locusts a little more consistently or at least in more frequent pulses.
I dont like that pull ability on the viper(i think its on him at least) It just looks so out of place. It serves its purpose though..
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SC2 got a headstart in e-sports because of its predecessor. If this game had been released with the name red alert 4 instead of starcraft 2 the game would never have been where it is today.
and if it hadn't been a good game in its own right, it never would have taken off the way it has.
seriously, the number of western fans who watched BW was miniscule compared to the number who watch SC2, so how do you explain all those spectators, all those fans crowding the MLGs?
if it had all been BW nostalgia, the game would have launched big and faded fast. Instead, the opposite has happened--the competitive scene just keeps growing and growing. That doesn't happen with games that aren't good, competitive, spectator-friendly games in their own right.
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On October 23 2011 12:29 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +Dustin Browder shows he has absolutely no idea what makes a good RTS game. But what does it matter when his customers doesn't either, they'll buy it because there's a bunch of shiny new "cool" units. Browder was the lead designer on HotS, which you know, everyone here is still playing, and which has caused the western e-sports scene to explode in a way no other game has come close to doing. I think he knows a little bit more than you about how to design a great game, given that he, you know, already did it. I know he worked on C&C earlier and has stupid catchphrases like "terrible terrible damage" so he's easy to hate on, but the fact is SC2 was hands down the best RTS released since the original BW, and has had an impact on Western e-sports that goes so far beyond any other game.
I would say the explosion of esports is simply due to ee han timing of Blizzard bringing out SC2 just when the infrastructure to support esports had stabilized. Very similar to the timing of internet infrastructure in Korea and BW.
Also BW was so great, that even if you made it a lot worse, it would still be the best modern RTS to date. SC2 has many problems, and Blizzard has completely failed to address those problems.
What are these problems?
Ball vs Ball: The new units have not only not addressed these problems, they have encouraged it.
The Battle Hellion is now just a 1-a unit with your tanks rather than kiting your hellions around to do as much damage as possible until your tanks are ready to take on the rest.
The Shredder: A terribly terribly boring version of the spider mine. Not only that, but it not only mitigates the need for squad based action, it discourages it. Say goodbye to ling run-bys (and a squad of marines defending it), and say hello to more ball vs ball.
The only attempt to stop this has been the oracle, which is the laughing stock of the entire protoss community.
Strategic play:
Because of how easy it is to 1-a your army and win in many situations. What you get is a tightening of viable compositions and openers. I mean yes TvZ is awesome, but you don't see a lot of variety in unit composition (this is not the same as seeing lots of different units), TvP is even worse.
Tactical play:
What does the Swarm Host do that is better or more exciting than the lurker?
Its basically a siege unit, designed to take out siege tanks (AKA A GROUND BROODLORD). DO WE REALLY NEED MORE UNITS THAT COUNTER SIEGE TANKS BLIZZARD??!!!! Blizzard does not know what map control is, period. A lurker on top of a ramp that can stop an infinite amount of marines, that is map control. Needing 10 of these swarm hosts just to protect your base from a couple of medivacs dropping marines, that is not map control.
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On October 23 2011 12:42 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +SC2 got a headstart in e-sports because of its predecessor. If this game had been released with the name red alert 4 instead of starcraft 2 the game would never have been where it is today. and if it hadn't been a good game in its own right, it never would have taken off the way it has. seriously, the number of western fans who watched BW was miniscule compared to the number who watch SC2, so how do you explain all those spectators, all those fans crowding the MLGs? if it had all been BW nostalgia, the game would have launched big and faded fast. Instead, the opposite has happened--the competitive scene just keeps growing and growing. That doesn't happen with games that aren't good, competitive, spectator-friendly games in their own right.
Even outside of the BW community a lot of people considered BW the epitome of RTS games, especially if you were competitive. But it was too hard for your average player and lot of people felt they came into it too late. So they waited for SC2.
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On October 23 2011 12:42 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +SC2 got a headstart in e-sports because of its predecessor. If this game had been released with the name red alert 4 instead of starcraft 2 the game would never have been where it is today. and if it hadn't been a good game in its own right, it never would have taken off the way it has. seriously, the number of western fans who watched BW was miniscule compared to the number who watch SC2, so how do you explain all those spectators, all those fans crowding the MLGs? if it had all been BW nostalgia, the game would have launched big and faded fast. Instead, the opposite has happened--the competitive scene just keeps growing and growing. That doesn't happen with games that aren't good, competitive, spectator-friendly games in their own right.
Umm if its so much bigger than BW ever was, then why aren't we seeing 120,000 spectators at a Starcraft grand final? MLG has a bunch of games, not everyone is there for Starcraft.
You said western, okay fine, but why does that matter? The reason the west never took on e-sports has a lot more to do with the internet infrastructure of the time, korea had it, the US didn't, but they do now.
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I think they should have added more to the psionic tech tree rather than the robo tech tree. If your not going to add KA then atleast make temp tech more viable and versatile considering the new additions to zerg.
I still think the idea of a tempest is horrible, can't mutas just magic box them and with hydra speed increase they might be pretty bad.
They should make the colossus a hovering unit and get rid of its legs to make it look more badass.
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I think the toss units are going to be very difficult t balance without making them almost useless. However, the new abilities could be insane. Getting a nice defensive ability for the nexus will allow for some fast expands to be more viable. Getting recall though...that is going to be fun late game.
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On October 23 2011 12:38 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 12:36 Yosen3002 wrote:
Like the new Terran units, warhound looks shit though. All three are designed to make Mech more viable in many situations which generally is a good thing imho.
Thor change is bad though, just dont like the concept of a hero unit in the game.
I like the Viper. It adds a lot to zerg gameplay, not yet sold on that hook ability though. Broodhost is kinda okay, but they srsly have to adjust the spawnrate.
Hate the new corrupter ability, hope it wont make it into release.
Oracle might be good, dont want to comment on that too much until we see it in the hands of good players to see what possibilities there are with it.
Hate the replicantunit...will be pretty hard to balance all the different situations possible with this unit and i dislike the idea in general.
Hate the Tempest idea, i think its a pretty useless Unit. Would have prefered a fleetbeacon upgrade for phoenix to deal with (light) air better, probably like a little splash added in there or something. Then tweak carriermicro and make it generally viable again.
I like the removal of the mothership, but i would have prefered the addition of the arbiter instead of giving the nexus defensive recall only. Your last two ideas are brilliant.... PXH that actually deal with mutas AND fix carriers ( like they buffed Ultras and have consistently helped BCs out)Also nexi recall will prob get nerfed to hell... Just replace the stupid oracle with an arbiter or even a raven like caster and toss would be tickled pink..........
Yea I dont get that. With some units they try so freakin hard to make them work but with others "nope, that unit is (insert stupid excuse here) so were gonna replace it with essentially the same thing just not as effective". Its so enfuriating.
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those of you knocking SC2 and crediting all its success to BW still haven't answered why the spectator scene is growing rather than shrinking. If the only reason anyone bought SC2 was out of nostalgia, the exact opposite would have happened, it would have quickly faded and died. Instead, it seems like every month there are more tournaments, the tournaments are getting bigger, and more spectators tune in. That doesn't happen unless a game in its own right has something that keeps people coming back and tuning in.
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One of the major problems with HOTS is that it doesn't feel like much of an expansion, but more of a redo of the game. An expansion should try to solve problems with small additions to existing units and add in 1 or 2 new units for each race.
Carriers are classic protoss units. I remember in BW just massing them with arbiters and watching the minimap turn green. They are what I think of when I think protoss. Removing them for a unit whose role could be filled by the phoenix seems silly to me. In the original beta of WoL, the phoenix had an ability (i think called overcharge) that did one burst of splash damage fire. Adding this ability onto the phoenix is (i think) a much better solution to the mass muta problem. It also fits with the idea of an expansion, instead of removing and replacing, it expands or adds on.
One of the cool things about BW is that units and abilities are heavily dependent on position. For example, Dark swarm could be used agains the zerg if they were forced out of it and other player could hide in it from hydras. Stasis affected any unit, storm affected any unit, etc. I think a good change would be to allow banelings to hurt their own zerg units when they splash. It only makes sense, with the acid splashing everything around it, and it would require the zerg to be careful using banelings with zerglings. In the same vein, the shredder seems like a cool idea, and if it required activation/deactivation or had a small delay before powering up when it senses enemy units (so the units are not in the field for the entire time, and still had some time to retreat before taking damage), then it can still allow zergling runbys while still maintaining its purpose.
Finally, the oracle has some potential. The oracle does need to do more for its cost, maybe something like keeping phase shift how it is (or lowering its timer to like 30 secs), replacing the building read ability with something actually useful, and making the mineral shields only disappear from damage, and not from time. Having the shields remain indefinitely requires the opponent to react to it or suffer at least some sort of permanent damage that the other races can get from killing workers. If the oracle can cast these while most of the attention is focused on a major engagement, it is similar to killing workers with a banshee or mutas while pushing.
One last thing, now that the mothership is gone, protoss no longer has a cloaking field unit, and a "mass disable"(stasis, vortex) ability (unless the oracle can do this with mineral shields on units, please clarify). These abilities seem like important protoss abilities, please return them somehow.
tl;dr:
1. Make HOTS more "expansion-like" and less "new game" like
2. Bring back carriers and make them useful. Add the overcharge ability back to phoenix to fight mass muta.
3. Shredder rework, and banelings should splash friendly units
4. Oracle rework
5. Protoss needs a cloacking field unit and a "mass-disable" spell.
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On October 23 2011 13:13 awesomoecalypse wrote:
those of you knocking SC2 and crediting all its success to BW still haven't answered why the spectator scene is growing rather than shrinking. If the only reason anyone bought SC2 was out of nostalgia, the exact opposite would have happened, it would have quickly faded and died. Instead, it seems like every month there are more tournaments, the tournaments are getting bigger, and more spectators tune in. That doesn't happen unless a game in its own right has something that keeps people coming back and tuning in.
Is the Sc2 scene growing that much? I recall a short time a go there was data available which showed the number of active players in each region, and it has been dropping quite significantly each season... I will see if I can find it.
Maybe the spectating side has been growing, but I don't think the player base has, at least not for 1v1...
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On October 23 2011 12:51 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 12:42 awesomoecalypse wrote:SC2 got a headstart in e-sports because of its predecessor. If this game had been released with the name red alert 4 instead of starcraft 2 the game would never have been where it is today. and if it hadn't been a good game in its own right, it never would have taken off the way it has. seriously, the number of western fans who watched BW was miniscule compared to the number who watch SC2, so how do you explain all those spectators, all those fans crowding the MLGs? if it had all been BW nostalgia, the game would have launched big and faded fast. Instead, the opposite has happened--the competitive scene just keeps growing and growing. That doesn't happen with games that aren't good, competitive, spectator-friendly games in their own right. Umm if its so much bigger than BW ever was, then why aren't we seeing 120,000 spectators at a Starcraft grand final? MLG has a bunch of games, not everyone is there for Starcraft. You said western, okay fine, but why does that matter? The reason the west never took on e-sports has a lot more to do with the internet infrastructure of the time, korea had it, the US didn't, but they do now.
MLG has 3 games, and ~70% at least of the people are there for SC2. (At least at Orlando, I was there)
But anyways, not a huge fan of these changes overall. The only ones that fill an obvious weakness are the terran ones, and terran was allready the most complete race.
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Is the Sc2 scene growing that much? I recall a short time a go there was data available which showed the number of active players in each region, and it has been dropping quite significantly each season... I will see if I can find it.
Maybe the spectating side has been growing, but I don't think the player base has, at least not for 1v1...
The spectating side has definitely been growing. Every major tournament has been showing increased viewership over time, and there are more tournaments now than ever. Compare the most recent MLG to the first one after launch, and the growth couldn't be more obvious.
And as regards BW, its not like PC bangs were still full of Starcraft players years and years after launch--some people did, but the "everyone plays BW" phase didn't last forever by any means in Korea. Where the famed longevity of the game came into play was on the proscene side--more and more people kept tuning in, and the number of spectators/size of tournaments kept growing, which is exactly what is happening with SC2.
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you should link the units in the OP :/
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EPT
