Unfortunately you can immediately negate the Forcefields with a few units rallied out of your rax or hell I wonder if a PF would auto kill the forcefields. Unless the forcefields are /very/ strong and /very/ long it's a joke. As pointed out above, killing 5 workers is a far better arrangement in every scenario.
God knows the phase tree will be nerfed out of the game by zergs. It's not going to help us not keep dieing to Terrans. There's a similar spell in the game right now from a unit that's much cheaper... Yeah I don't see contaminate used that often either.
Honestly, with the replicator it's only going to reinforce Robo focused play to open.
I think they're just buying time to make a decent game in LoTv. They should just give us back Toss BW tech because their sc2 ideas have generally been terrible and arbiters and reavers would go a long way to solving some issues.
I really do NOT like this new shredder unit, to me it feels like a super noob friendly unit that cancels out zengling harass. I mean with a PF and some shredders with their field just barely out of reach of the workers and some turrets no amount of zerg units will break that. lings and blings will die instantly. Maybe baneling drops to kill workers/kill the PF, but to kill a pf with banelings it is very very expensive and has a real probability of not working.
Maybe you can use the viper to pull in the shredders? Is the shredder a building or a unit? Definitely the new borrowed broodlord cant be used to siege the shredders because it's units will die instantly because they are too slow.
I don't like zerg's units. The new borrowed BL is very weak IMO. If the units have to walk there instead of instantly getting there like with the BL, they will die almost immediately. Collosi will fry those things in an instant. Same thing as some tanks/rines
I don't know what's the range of the vipers pulling ability, but from what I saw in the video it didn't look nearly long enough to break a big ball, only really to be used when u beat the big ball and colli's are running away.
and doesn't the toss have more than enough to deal with mass muta...? if the zerg does mass muta, and im talking about 12+, just mass blink stalkers and mass pheonix. If the toss is a competent player, he would lose mininal pheonix because pehonix outrange the muta and are faster than then. And the blink stalkers usually blink right under the muta, garaunteeing atleast a couple of kills.
I just wished they'd redo sc1, with the old type of units and the old type of controls (12 zergs in 1 hotkey anyone?) and the same unit ai and everything, just with better graphics.
So what if the oracle gets out a live? This isn't very interesting. Do you really care in the mid/late game (when you have 140+ food) whether a banshee gets out alive?
Oracles are more expensive than Banshees, they have less health, and Protoss in general is a gas starved race. Losing an Oracle is gonna be a big deal for Protoss, and potentially game-ending if it happens early enough. Not comparable to a Banshee at all.
They absolutely said if this happens ("terran can NEVER go tanks against toss"), replicant is going to be removed or nerfed significantly. Why on earth they would buff mech and then made unit that essentialy forbids the mech's core unit?
Killing the 1-1-1 =/= killing tank play in general.
Due to the way the Replicant works, it is more cost efficient than single versions of units that required a lot of upgrades, like that first tank in the 1-1-1 effectively costs 100/100 more due to the cost of siege tech, which makes the Replicant more cost efficient.
But every tank the terran builds after that will be a lot cheaper than each replicant the toss builds.
So, mass tanks >>>>mass replicant tanks, but one replicant tank>one siege tank.
Why the he'll would I invest in a harass/caster that can't kill workers and is worthless in my actual composition.
Yeah why would anyone want to shut down their opponent's entire expo from mining for nearly a minute with one spell? Why would anyone build a unit that takes entire tech trees away from their opponent for nearly a minute at a time? Why would anyone want to eliminate static defense?
Tanks in general are far more effective vs most terran units than they are vs most protoss units. It's not a fair comparison to say a replicant tank is worse than a real tank on cost alone without looking at its function in game.
I think this definitely scares any terran away from building tanks, not that they have much reason to right now outside of 1/1/1
On October 23 2011 02:12 Hikari wrote: 200/200 is quite expensive for a single replicant: I do not think a single siege tank for 200/200 is worth that money: might as well as make a colossus.
The only good thing I can really think of would be infestor + HT: storm on top of fungal.
The oracle's ability to deny tech is quite powerful: A stargate open vs z for example will start with a Vr+phoenix. The moment you see that hydraden or spire you just make oracles to phase it out...
Curious about the health of that mineral shield: because zerglings are melee units it might take a while for them to break the shields off a mineral patch.
Many of the Protoss posters really seem to misunderstand the strength of the Replicant. It's not just about getting X unit - it's about getting X unit instantly in order to counter something. As others have said, of course if your opponent makes siege tanks and you go with replicants to make siege tanks as well, you're spending much more for your tanks. However, consider what happens when your opponent shows up with a couple of siege tanks that you were not expecting, or when he just makes a couple for army support. In that case, you can instantly pop out a couple of siege tanks yourself and hold off that push. You're paying for the insane utility of being able to instantly tech switch, not just for the unit.
hmm not too happy with any of these changes, kinda just seems gimmicky. sc2 is finally getting to get figured out, and Blizz is going to add "cool" units, instead of balancing the game T_T
On October 23 2011 00:30 Horse...falcon wrote: Swarm host doesn't feel very zerg at all...
Zerg is supposed to be very quick moving and good at taking the map. If I have a number of swarm hosts I'm going to be stuck babysitting them like brood lords. Also they don't seem that effective, in this video
it takes 9 swarm hosts 1 round (about 30ish seconds) to take out a bunker...I get that they're supposed to be used for cannon fodder against enemy artillery but zerglings kind of fulfill the same role without a super big unit to slow it down.
This... I think everyone is so obsessed with the Viper's pull that nobody is paying attention to the Swarm Host and how weak it actually looks in practice. Out of all the units they introduced for all races, it definitely looks the weakest, in the video. The rate for spawning the locusts seems so slow, there's a huge downtime in between to clean everything up.
no dude, rather than burrow them all at once, burrow them in intervals that way there's always stuff pushing.
they did it ineffectively.
So only 2 Locusts at a time will be out? And what will that do exactly? Streams of 1 or 2 units attacking at a time is the weakest thing in this game and a good way to make sure all your units will die without doing any damage.
If you do it right, half of the locusts will completely avoid damage from Siege Tanks entirely. I think it would be viable.
To be honest, though, if I were playing as Terran and suddenly saw a Zerg army fortified by superlings with three times as much health, I would be scared.
That people really think cloning an scv and then making a OC will work. There is someting called a tech tree you know. (also, I highly doubt you would be able to mine with probes at an OC)
On October 23 2011 02:14 roymarthyup wrote: i feel to be balanced, replicants absolutely must not be able to copy drones or scv's.
i can see it now. every game toss will send observer into enemy base, replicate a scv', and build a command center as his third base. keep a scv at home to make barracks and use the CC at your third, take your third, turn it into a planetary, and now the toss with a couple barracks will be massing MARINES with his army.... extremely imbalanced
it was extremely hard for toss to mind control SCV's and drones in BW
it is extremely hard for zerg to NP a scv/probe and make a new tech
it will be EASY for toss to do it with replicants. it will be very OP
i however can live with the idea of the replicant. it just would be too overpowered if it can target scv/drone
The cost of starting up a new race path is huge in economic terms. It isn't viable on a real game with a decent opponent, since it would open a GIGANTIC window of opportunity for your opponent to punish you. It could be done if you manage a large early game advantage, but in that case you can win the game with pretty much anything and make it look OP.
On October 23 2011 02:14 roymarthyup wrote: i feel to be balanced, replicants absolutely must not be able to copy drones or scv's.
i can see it now. every game toss will send observer into enemy base, replicate a scv', and build a command center as his third base. keep a scv at home to make barracks and use the CC at your third, take your third, turn it into a planetary, and now the toss with a couple barracks will be massing MARINES with his army.... extremely imbalanced
it was extremely hard for toss to mind control SCV's and drones in BW
it is extremely hard for zerg to NP a scv/probe and make a new tech
it will be EASY for toss to do it with replicants. it will be very OP
i however can live with the idea of the replicant. it just would be too overpowered if it can target scv/drone
i think it's funny that terrans are so scared of toss race-switching in game. you know a unit is useless when its only use is to copy other units. can we please get something to deal with early game terran dominance? can we please get something that's good against MMM? like, zerg got that unit to break siege tank lines. terran got a unit to break siege tank lines and to beat fucking chargelot archon (which isn't even hard in the current meta). but protoss can't get a unit with any functionality that's t1 and doesn't cost a million gas? bullshit.
also, currently one of the main weaknesses of stargate play is that stargate harass gets shut down by a single spore. now there's a stargate unit that can shut down the spore, giving Phoenixes free reign.
On October 23 2011 02:16 Sabu113 wrote: Unfortunately you can immediately negate the Forcefields with a few units rallied out of your rax or hell I wonder if a PF would auto kill the forcefields.
Looking at the video it looks like the actual spell is casted behind the minerals, don't think the PF reaches behind there.
The oracle harass-thingy it puts up on the minerals just has some hp and can easily be killed.
So best case scenario for the Oracle is that it does as much damage as a completely 100% failed drop (where the opponent manages to pull out all workers in time, which never happens as you cant pull the ones from gas). As that is the mining time that will be lost before some units are there to shoot down the things shielding the minerals.
I have talked to Superouman about the Protoss changes, and we came to an agreement. Both of us think that the Shredder would actually fit better with Protoss because they are the ones lacking map control and defensive options. It would go in the Robotics Facility, requiring a Robotics Bay (and probably just use the Replicant model).
but protoss can't get a unit with any functionality that's t1 and doesn't cost a million gas? bullshit.
It's called the zealot. With charge it does a lot of damage unless your opponent is good at micro, which makes it then harder for them to macro unless they're very good. It costs no gas.
The idea of the replicant is so stupid. Because what the game for protoss will turn into after a long period of time, is something like trying to replicate ghosts to EMP other ghosts or infestors to fungal growth the Zs roaches, which to me takes away the spirit of the game in 3 unique factions fighting each other. The replicant will just become the unit to go for because you can just replicate your opponents casters and it just becomes a stupid game.
The flipside of that, is that the replicant just becomes useless because no one wants to use it, because its just 1. Some stupid gimmick the game really, really, really should not have and 2. Its really not that useful to spend 200 200 to get the other races casters (which really in my opinion would be the only cost efficient use of the replicant)
I think the idea of protoss reconstructing zerg/terran tech trees will be awsome and create a lot creative game strategies. Does this mean we get to chrono-boost hatcheries? Don't think this is OP, because you have you will be duplicating tech trees which is expensive.
So what happens in PvP with replicates. You replicate a 3/3/3 zealot and you have 0/0/0 upgrades. Do you get free upgrades?
On October 23 2011 02:08 testthewest wrote: The new toss harrass unit is just a bad idea. So if my opponent does nothing, I do 500 minerals eco-dmg (as said by Blizzard in the Video). Well, if a banshee kills just 5 workers, that costs 250 minerals to replace, as well as 250 extra minerals that these 5 workers would have harvested in the time it needs to rebuild. And then, when banshee returns home, she is a decent fighting unit, while or harrass unit is just dead weight on our supply.
I feel the same way. He was like 'and for all that you did 500 minerals damage assuming your opponent is AFK'. Hardly seems worth the effort. Might as well go for a traditional warp prism drop which has the ability to do damage to people who aren't asleep.
The building take out feature of it could be quite useful, however. I see it more being useful in a traditional army just taking out static D, though it could harass via taking out buildings temporarily.
But yeah from an econ point of view that unit looks like a waste of supply, build time, and resources.
but protoss can't get a unit with any functionality that's t1 and doesn't cost a million gas? bullshit.
It's called the zealot. With charge it does a lot of damage unless your opponent is good at micro, which makes it then harder for them to macro unless they're very good. It costs no gas.
Oh, what's this? Something Protoss can do?
No wait, the new Battle Hellions hard counter Chargelots.
EPT
