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United Kingdom12041 Posts
On October 23 2011 02:33 Daralii wrote:
I'm moderately curious as to whether or not they're doing anything with the immortal. They've said that it was top priority for a rework(alongside the overseer, which got axed), but it doesn't seem like they've done anything yet.
It might be because since the range buff Protoss have been using it much more. ^^
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On October 23 2011 02:32 skatbone wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:38 OffCuts wrote:On October 22 2011 12:29 Shiori wrote:
i'm baffled at david kim's comment that p has a "too strong" deathball or a "lot of options." O_O Yer thought that was kinda random. I quit Protoss cuz they didnt have alot of options lol. I was hoping that - the phoenix got an upgrade which gave them some aoe... which was the new unit - carriers got an ability thingy of some sort - warp prism got looked at - they got something to help them on flanks/in smaller engagements - Zealots got uber nerfed (against terran) O well. One of those came true. From watching the panel, it seems that Blizzard is using the Oracle to address the notion that toss units have to be in a ball to be effective. I really do like the way that this unit will at least make the enemy sensitive to the threat of harass And spores and turrets aren't necessarily enough to shut it down as it can phase them out. That said, depending on the unit speed, it might be easily sniped by vikings--that's the current problem I have using warp prisms vs T.
The Oracle is the fastest unit in the game by a considerable margin. Warp prisms with the boost are also faster than Vikings, so that shouldn't be a problem for you either.
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On October 23 2011 02:35 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 02:33 Daralii wrote:
I'm moderately curious as to whether or not they're doing anything with the immortal. They've said that it was top priority for a rework(alongside the overseer, which got axed), but it doesn't seem like they've done anything yet. It might be because since the range buff Protoss have been using it much more. ^^
I don't think their issue with it was underuse, but the fact that it was used for burst damage rather than a tank. Granted, they said that a while ago, so their opinions could've changed.
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On October 23 2011 02:27 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 02:21 MattyClutch wrote:On October 23 2011 02:08 testthewest wrote:
The new toss harrass unit is just a bad idea. So if my opponent does nothing, I do 500 minerals eco-dmg (as said by Blizzard in the Video). Well, if a banshee kills just 5 workers, that costs 250 minerals to replace, as well as 250 extra minerals that these 5 workers would have harvested in the time it needs to rebuild.
And then, when banshee returns home, she is a decent fighting unit, while or harrass unit is just dead weight on our supply.
I feel the same way. He was like 'and for all that you did 500 minerals damage assuming your opponent is AFK'. Hardly seems worth the effort. Might as well go for a traditional warp prism drop which has the ability to do damage to people who aren't asleep. The building take out feature of it could be quite useful, however. I see it more being useful in a traditional army just taking out static D, though it could harass via taking out buildings temporarily. But yeah from an econ point of view that unit looks like a waste of supply, build time, and resources. Protoss just like to cry. Actually the Oracle has a nice design, the idea is not bad. You just need to brain on how to use it, at which moment, at least let the game go. The replicant on the other hand is just a bullshit unit "look my unit arsenal is actually so weak and incomplete that i will borrow your unit to fix the shit out".
That isn't crying and that is a silly statement. I could just as easily say Zerg just like to cry or Terran just like to cry. If you can drop and kill workers then you might as well do that as it is much more effective. And I listed ways the unit could be useful, just not in econ harass.
"Oh you slightly delayed some of my mining if I don't have units nearby at a cost of build time, resources, and pop cap to you...". Yes it is truly terrifying.
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On October 23 2011 02:24 skatbone wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 12:29 Shiori wrote:
i'm baffled at david kim's comment that p has a "too strong" deathball or a "lot of options." O_O Hmmm...he was being rhetorical. He says "So a lot of people might argue that the protoss ball of death is a little to strong...". That is Kim commenting on a commonly held perspective, not holding that perspective himself. (30 minutes into the balance panel.)
i call BS on this. why didn't he give a platform for the much wider opinion that MM is way too difficult for toss to deal with? i'm sure just as many people think that's true, but it was never mentioned.
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On October 23 2011 02:35 Chloroplaste wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bL06m.jpg) Hello everyone, What do you think of new terran units from a design point of view? I'm not really found of it and I prefer the firebat and goliath style...
The units in SC2 have always been extremely hard to discern. They have no distinctive silhouettes.
That's not a problem for people who've been playing for a while since our eyes are quite trained, but it makes it difficult to, say, explain the game to your friends and try to get them hooked on watching it.
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![[image loading]](http://mahq.net/mecha/macross/sdfmacross/mbr-04-mk6.jpg)
I think someone at blizzard is a Mechwarrior fan.
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On October 23 2011 02:35 Chloroplaste wrote:Hello everyone, What do you think of new terran units from a design point of view? I'm not really found of it and I prefer the firebat and goliath style...
Now that you put it that way, I'm disappointed of Blizzard's creative team. I insist on this. HotS will be a good game, but the design team just looks uninspired and bad. It's like night and day when comparing SC2's team to D3's team.
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Nekemancer, every mech ever looks like that. Ever. It's nothing special that Blizzard uses a similar design.
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Does anyone have test blinding cloud on tank ? Blinding cloud should make any attack range to melee range so does that mean tank don't have blind spot while under it an can shot zerling at melee range ? i'm really wondering
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I feel like they will cut out the oracle, but that's just me 
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On October 23 2011 02:42 Zeke50100 wrote:
Nekemancer, every mech ever looks like that. Ever. It's nothing special that Blizzard uses a similar design.
No! Must... grasp at straws... complain Blizzard isn't creative!
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On October 23 2011 02:42 Zeke50100 wrote:
Nekemancer, every mech ever looks like that. Ever. It's nothing special that Blizzard uses a similar design.
I guess every mech ever ripped off Macross/RoboTech then :D
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On October 23 2011 02:33 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 02:27 Toadvine wrote:On October 23 2011 02:13 ohampatu wrote:On October 23 2011 02:11 Al Bundy wrote:
I have to say that so far I love the new Protoss Units. I kinda like how the Oracle works, from what I've seen with good enough multitasking, you can literally shut down the opponent's economy.
Also I love the nexus abilities, man this is going to be insane. Exactly. Just picture this: Your observer spots the terran army moving to the middle of map, possibly checking the xel'naga before pushing. You see this, and use 2 oracles at his main and natural to shut down the mining. Terran is going to have be super defensive and play smart because good oracle play will just own. Multitasking and good effective apm will be rewarded. And then the Terran attacks with his army and just rolls you over because you spent 150 gas on a Stargate, and then 400 gas on two Oracles which do jack shit in an actual engagement. Please. You don't know how Oracle builds will play out in terms of cost, time and composition, none of us do. It'll take months of play to see what effect it will really have. Dismissing it as impossible because your half baked theorycrafting says it won't work is really jumping the gun. Imagine another instance where late game a terran drops 20 mules onto a gold base. You block his minerals and while he is pulling back some of his army to deal with it the timer on his mules is ticking down and going to waste.
Did you only read the first two lines of my post, or did you choose to ignore the rest because it didn't fit with your desired response?
It's not theorycrafting, it's really fucking simple, and I'll lay it out for you again: Right now, a Protoss can die to a 2 base Terran all-in because he chose to build Phoenix instead of getting proper combat units. This problem is obviously exacerbated by Oracles, which cost more and don't do anything at all in a battle. So, unless there's some kind of huge PvT redesign, and Protoss gains a major defensive advantage, you will only see them in the lategame for this reason alone.
So yeah, from what has been revealed thus far, it's not something Protoss needs. Protoss has enough expensive lategame harass, we don't need any more.
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Hurray!!!! More hardcounters just what we need to balnce the game. I thought this was a joke at first. I am utterly disapointed. The pro senece is going to be totaly retarded. I just can imagine being excited about watching the pros use shreeders and orcals or even the replicator. Its all just a big joke. I mean come on a lasso spell for the viper; what the fuck is this C&C. They cant be for real. 
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On October 23 2011 01:17 Bibdy wrote:
I watched the videos and I find their reasoning really peculiar in a lot of places.
The Thor 'caters' to that group of players that want the super unit?
They seem to think Terran don't have enough units that counter Armoured units (Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Marines, anyone?) so they want the Warhound to be better than the Thor at it (more mobile than the Thor makes in infinitely better)?
Protoss have trouble with massed Mutalisks and they don't know what to build? Did Psi Storm and Archons get removed without me noticing?
Protoss are missing early-game harassment options, so they give us a harassment unit at the same tech position as the Void Ray?
The reasoning is just a little off in places.
You're exactly right protoss have phoenix Archons blink stalkers HT's photon cannons all of which own mutalisk pretty hard.
Here's the catch though Protoss don't care what army the Zerg builds they are just the easy race you just get your death all and squash the bugs. Most Protoss don't scout vs Zerg now bliss gave them another toy and this ones a ridiculous probabl oP unit vs air.
I thought I read somewhere David Kim says the new carrier thing kills everrythng so basically an AA specific carrier with huge AOE splash and a ground attack to boot.
Yep this expansion should be called
Protoss ripp the heart out of the swarm
Don't even get started on Mass Recall
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On October 23 2011 02:46 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 02:33 The KY wrote:On October 23 2011 02:27 Toadvine wrote:On October 23 2011 02:13 ohampatu wrote:On October 23 2011 02:11 Al Bundy wrote:
I have to say that so far I love the new Protoss Units. I kinda like how the Oracle works, from what I've seen with good enough multitasking, you can literally shut down the opponent's economy.
Also I love the nexus abilities, man this is going to be insane. Exactly. Just picture this: Your observer spots the terran army moving to the middle of map, possibly checking the xel'naga before pushing. You see this, and use 2 oracles at his main and natural to shut down the mining. Terran is going to have be super defensive and play smart because good oracle play will just own. Multitasking and good effective apm will be rewarded. And then the Terran attacks with his army and just rolls you over because you spent 150 gas on a Stargate, and then 400 gas on two Oracles which do jack shit in an actual engagement. Please. You don't know how Oracle builds will play out in terms of cost, time and composition, none of us do. It'll take months of play to see what effect it will really have. Dismissing it as impossible because your half baked theorycrafting says it won't work is really jumping the gun. Imagine another instance where late game a terran drops 20 mules onto a gold base. You block his minerals and while he is pulling back some of his army to deal with it the timer on his mules is ticking down and going to waste. Did you only read the first two lines of my post, or did you choose to ignore the rest because it didn't fit with your desired response? It's not theorycrafting, it's really fucking simple, and I'll lay it out for you again: Right now, a Protoss can die to a 2 base Terran all-in because he chose to build Phoenix instead of getting proper combat units. This problem is obviously exacerbated by Oracles, which cost more and don't do anything at all in a battle. So, unless there's some kind of huge PvT redesign, and Protoss gains a major defensive advantage, you will only see them in the lategame for this reason alone. So yeah, from what has been revealed thus far, it's not something Protoss needs. Protoss has enough expensive lategame harass, we don't need any more.
Actually. Your right, its 'really fucking simple'. Your wrong.
In PvT, opening phoenix doesn't mean you auto lose, although its possible to have a BO loss. With the current change in warp prisms, many protoss are making them 'very early game' to harrass with by dropping zealots in mineral lines.
Using warp prism/zealots actualy costs more than just using the oracle. Protoss users make 'non combat' units on 1 or 2 base and dont 'auto lose' to every allin. I hope you understand the difference between allins, timing pushes, and cheese though. Because you dont seem to.
So are you telling me that all the pros that we see doing warp prism harrass or phoenix harrasss before lategame are bad?
Please man. Take your pointless flames with no actual evidence somewhere else.
The oracle is fucking awesome. 2 of those in the midgame with proper multitasking is going to completely own and reward players who have the apm/ability to do it whilst macroing.
Also, protoss doesn't have 'late game harrass'. DT Expand is not late game, although DT's in the late game are sometimes better. We have harrass units, that can be used in early or late game, depending on certain situations.
The only issue protoss has in WoL, is that the stalker is really a bad unit, as is the collosi. Most of Protoss issues are from game design and balance issues with the other races units, not really are own.
This UNIT IS GOOD
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On October 23 2011 02:44 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 02:42 Zeke50100 wrote:
Nekemancer, every mech ever looks like that. Ever. It's nothing special that Blizzard uses a similar design. No! Must... grasp at straws... complain Blizzard isn't creative!
Pretty sure I was just pointing out that they're similar. I love Mechwarrior, and I love Blizzard.
And you haven't seen many mechs if you think that "every mech ever" looks that specifically similar.
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With the Oracle being able to disable buildings such as spores and turrets wouldn't this somewhat break PvZ because Stargate openers would become so strong? A Void Ray + Phoenix + Oracle opening would shut down all anti-air the Zerg has so I feel like we would be seeing a lot more Protoss open something like double Stargate with +1 air just because early game air for the Protoss now become so much stronger because they don't have to worry about static Zerg defense.
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On October 23 2011 02:09 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +So what if the oracle gets out a live? This isn't very interesting. Do you really care in the mid/late game (when you have 140+ food) whether a banshee gets out alive? Oracles are more expensive than Banshees, they have less health, and Protoss in general is a gas starved race. Losing an Oracle is gonna be a big deal for Protoss, and potentially game-ending if it happens early enough. Not comparable to a Banshee at all. Show nested quote +They absolutely said if this happens ("terran can NEVER go tanks against toss"), replicant is going to be removed or nerfed significantly. Why on earth they would buff mech and then made unit that essentialy forbids the mech's core unit? Killing the 1-1-1 =/= killing tank play in general. Due to the way the Replicant works, it is more cost efficient than single versions of units that required a lot of upgrades, like that first tank in the 1-1-1 effectively costs 100/100 more due to the cost of siege tech, which makes the Replicant more cost efficient. But every tank the terran builds after that will be a lot cheaper than each replicant the toss builds. So, mass tanks >>>>mass replicant tanks, but one replicant tank>one siege tank. Show nested quote +Why the he'll would I invest in a harass/caster that can't kill workers and is worthless in my actual composition. Yeah why would anyone want to shut down their opponent's entire expo from mining for nearly a minute with one spell? Why would anyone build a unit that takes entire tech trees away from their opponent for nearly a minute at a time? Why would anyone want to eliminate static defense?
It appears that you agree with me that the potential damage output isn't going to be very interesting, and the only potential interesting thing about the unit is whether it survives or not. Let me now try to argue why this isn't going to be esp. interesting:
The oracle is most likely not going to be impossible to lose. Why? Because if terran has a few vikings it should really vulnerable if its caught in the mineral field of the terran main base. Hence like banshee and dts its going to be a unit that will some times get sacrified when doing risky harass.
Toss, gas starved race? Yeh when your on 2 and some times 3 bases. However due to the way the oracle works it probably will be mostly used when on 3+ bases and when you can afford to spend money of non fightning units.
And let me state this: There is not going to be a solid strategy involving a unit which you potentially can lose but you cant afford to lose.
So if the replificant wil be that kind of unit you fear, its going to be gimmicky, which is a bad designed unit as well.
However as I argumented for, it probably wont be that kind of unit, and then it will be pretty similar for how a banshees is perceived in the mid/late game.
But this isn't really relevant. Its still not good design to have a unit that can do little guaranteed damage and get away with it with a high probability if decently used. (where is the high amount of micro involved). YOu use the skill and then you get away. The unit doesn't seem like it will require a high amount of skill.
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