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On October 23 2011 02:53 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 02:46 Toadvine wrote:On October 23 2011 02:33 The KY wrote:On October 23 2011 02:27 Toadvine wrote:On October 23 2011 02:13 ohampatu wrote:On October 23 2011 02:11 Al Bundy wrote:
I have to say that so far I love the new Protoss Units. I kinda like how the Oracle works, from what I've seen with good enough multitasking, you can literally shut down the opponent's economy.
Also I love the nexus abilities, man this is going to be insane. Exactly. Just picture this: Your observer spots the terran army moving to the middle of map, possibly checking the xel'naga before pushing. You see this, and use 2 oracles at his main and natural to shut down the mining. Terran is going to have be super defensive and play smart because good oracle play will just own. Multitasking and good effective apm will be rewarded. And then the Terran attacks with his army and just rolls you over because you spent 150 gas on a Stargate, and then 400 gas on two Oracles which do jack shit in an actual engagement. Please. You don't know how Oracle builds will play out in terms of cost, time and composition, none of us do. It'll take months of play to see what effect it will really have. Dismissing it as impossible because your half baked theorycrafting says it won't work is really jumping the gun. Imagine another instance where late game a terran drops 20 mules onto a gold base. You block his minerals and while he is pulling back some of his army to deal with it the timer on his mules is ticking down and going to waste. Did you only read the first two lines of my post, or did you choose to ignore the rest because it didn't fit with your desired response? It's not theorycrafting, it's really fucking simple, and I'll lay it out for you again: Right now, a Protoss can die to a 2 base Terran all-in because he chose to build Phoenix instead of getting proper combat units. This problem is obviously exacerbated by Oracles, which cost more and don't do anything at all in a battle. So, unless there's some kind of huge PvT redesign, and Protoss gains a major defensive advantage, you will only see them in the lategame for this reason alone. So yeah, from what has been revealed thus far, it's not something Protoss needs. Protoss has enough expensive lategame harass, we don't need any more. Actually. Your right, its 'really fucking simple'. Your wrong. In PvT, opening phoenix doesn't mean you auto lose, although its possible to have a BO loss. With the current change in warp prisms, many protoss are making them 'very early game' to harrass with by dropping zealots in mineral lines. Using warp prism/zealots actualy costs more than just using the oracle. Protoss users make 'non combat' units on 1 or 2 base and dont 'auto lose' to every allin. I hope you understand the difference between allins, timing pushes, and cheese though. Because you dont seem to. So are you telling me that all the pros that we see doing warp prism harrass or phoenix harrasss before lategame are bad? Please man. Take your pointless flames with no actual evidence somewhere else. The oracle is fucking awesome. 2 of those in the midgame with proper multitasking is going to completely own and reward players who have the apm/ability to do it whilst macroing. Also, protoss doesn't have 'late game harrass'. DT Expand is not late game, although DT's in the late game are sometimes better. We have harrass units, that can be used in early or late game, depending on certain situations. The only issue protoss has in WoL, is that the stalker is really a bad unit, as is the collosi. Most of Protoss issues are from game design and balance issues with the other races units, not really are own. This UNIT IS GOOD
I didn't read a lot of the previous posts you replied to, but you just listed the already existing and vastly superior alternatives to this unit. Aren't you arguing against your own point of the unit being good? No one was saying harass is bad... We are saying why use this 1/2 baked harass when we could just actually harass. See my previous posts for more details.
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United States16991 Posts
On October 23 2011 02:55 Nekemancer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 02:44 Daralii wrote:On October 23 2011 02:42 Zeke50100 wrote:
Nekemancer, every mech ever looks like that. Ever. It's nothing special that Blizzard uses a similar design. No! Must... grasp at straws... complain Blizzard isn't creative! Pretty sure I was just pointing out that they're similar. I love Mechwarrior, and I love Blizzard. And you haven't seen many mechs if you think that "every mech ever" looks that specifically similar.
Sorry, too used to the fact that everyone seems to be willing to do anything to complain about Blizzard, here and on battle.net, for every Blizzard game.
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Here is my take on Terran new units:
Shredder - aka spider mine 2.0
This little robot adresses the mobility issues of mech and it looks really promising. You often move out only to be backstabbed by Zerglings, Roaches or Mutas? Well, place a few of these guys at key locations in front of Planetary Fortress and a Siege Tank or two and let's see.. It has offensive uses and it hits both ground and air. I can definitely see some nerfing here.
Hellion Battle Mode
Very good approach to fix this endless Zealot spamming in your face late-game as well as getting rid of this awkward scenario, where Protoss is able to 1a into line of Siege Tanks. With the addition of Warhound and Shredder, this absolutely turns mech TvP into viable strategy. I think both Protoss and Terran players are more than happy to move on and have MMMVG rest for a while at least.
Warhound - aka Goliath 2.0
As a replacement for Thor, this guy is going to solve magic boxing issue, making mech TvZ more potent as well. Also it's anti-tank role is probably an attemt to have something to break siege lines with Hellions in battle mode. I like it as this can bring some dynamics into otherwise static TvT. Hopefully it's good enough to stop Void Ray allins. It would definitely bear some design/animation improvements though..
All in all I like those changes. It will certainly bring a lot of new strategies and fresh new feel to SC2.
As for Zerg and Protoss changes, I love the Viper and Oracle.. Those new units have such an inceredible potential, I just can't wait to see them in action. I guess Tempest will succesfully take over the role of Carrier being absolutely not used at all and Replicant is going to be insanely difficult to balance. I think they will either cut it or it won't be used at all..
I'm bit sad for Protoss players. It seems like they don't really know, where to start or what to do at all.
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I dont like how Swarm Hosts are redundant with Broods.
They are Ground broods. I know its not really. Im just aesthetically flipping about em. I was hoping their attack would be different. Like a plasma squirt from those bugs in Starship Troopers movie or something.
Sort of a burrowed energy sieger. gotta burrow to get rocks (ammo) and heat em up then hurl them.... so cool. Molten rock spew every where! (Darn then they are just seige tank copies)
Aw well. I'll take what I can get.
IF the Swarm Host has decent armor or hp, They might be really good to drop into a mineral line.
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Also does the Battle Hellion kinda of seem like a mechanical Roach in its use? I do like the transformation.
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On October 23 2011 02:56 Jushyfruit wrote:
With the Oracle being able to disable buildings such as spores and turrets wouldn't this somewhat break PvZ because Stargate openers would become so strong? A Void Ray + Phoenix + Oracle opening would shut down all anti-air the Zerg has so I feel like we would be seeing a lot more Protoss open something like double Stargate with +1 air just because early game air for the Protoss now become so much stronger because they don't have to worry about static Zerg defense.
Getting Void Rays, Phoenix's, and Oracles take quite a while. And you should scout that pretty easily. 2 base hydra will finish by the time this push comes, just like hydra finish currently. The timings aren't going to change. You will be able to get hydra out, couple extra queens, and spores.
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United States16991 Posts
On October 23 2011 02:59 TerrorandLove wrote:
I dont like how Swarm Hosts are redundant with Broods.
They are Ground broods. I know its not really. Im just aesthetically flipping about em. I was hoping their attack would be different. Like a plasma squirt from those bugs in Starship Troopers movie or something.
Sort of a burrowed energy sieger. gotta burrow to get rocks (ammo) and heat em up then hurl them.... so cool.
Aw well. I'll take what I can get.
IF the Swarm Host has decent armor or hp, They might be really good to drop into a mineral line.
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Also does the Battle Hellion kinda of seem like a mechanical Roach in its use? I do like the transformation.
Locusts easily make the swarm host worth it, imo. They're significantly bulkier than zerglings, let alone broodlings.
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So does anybody else think the new Swarm Host looks like useless? I really can't imagine how to make such a unit worthwhile or even how it's supposed to let the Zerg control a territory or even slow down a push.
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i feel blizzard just went back to broodwar and said... we might as well just bring everyone back and change there name, i don't know i hope the game is good but barely anything i see thats actually CREATIVE.
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Welcome to the new terran deathball: transformed hellions and warhounds
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On October 23 2011 02:57 MattyClutch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 02:53 ohampatu wrote:On October 23 2011 02:46 Toadvine wrote:On October 23 2011 02:33 The KY wrote:On October 23 2011 02:27 Toadvine wrote:On October 23 2011 02:13 ohampatu wrote:On October 23 2011 02:11 Al Bundy wrote:
I have to say that so far I love the new Protoss Units. I kinda like how the Oracle works, from what I've seen with good enough multitasking, you can literally shut down the opponent's economy.
Also I love the nexus abilities, man this is going to be insane. Exactly. Just picture this: Your observer spots the terran army moving to the middle of map, possibly checking the xel'naga before pushing. You see this, and use 2 oracles at his main and natural to shut down the mining. Terran is going to have be super defensive and play smart because good oracle play will just own. Multitasking and good effective apm will be rewarded. And then the Terran attacks with his army and just rolls you over because you spent 150 gas on a Stargate, and then 400 gas on two Oracles which do jack shit in an actual engagement. Please. You don't know how Oracle builds will play out in terms of cost, time and composition, none of us do. It'll take months of play to see what effect it will really have. Dismissing it as impossible because your half baked theorycrafting says it won't work is really jumping the gun. Imagine another instance where late game a terran drops 20 mules onto a gold base. You block his minerals and while he is pulling back some of his army to deal with it the timer on his mules is ticking down and going to waste. Did you only read the first two lines of my post, or did you choose to ignore the rest because it didn't fit with your desired response? It's not theorycrafting, it's really fucking simple, and I'll lay it out for you again: Right now, a Protoss can die to a 2 base Terran all-in because he chose to build Phoenix instead of getting proper combat units. This problem is obviously exacerbated by Oracles, which cost more and don't do anything at all in a battle. So, unless there's some kind of huge PvT redesign, and Protoss gains a major defensive advantage, you will only see them in the lategame for this reason alone. So yeah, from what has been revealed thus far, it's not something Protoss needs. Protoss has enough expensive lategame harass, we don't need any more. Actually. Your right, its 'really fucking simple'. Your wrong. In PvT, opening phoenix doesn't mean you auto lose, although its possible to have a BO loss. With the current change in warp prisms, many protoss are making them 'very early game' to harrass with by dropping zealots in mineral lines. Using warp prism/zealots actualy costs more than just using the oracle. Protoss users make 'non combat' units on 1 or 2 base and dont 'auto lose' to every allin. I hope you understand the difference between allins, timing pushes, and cheese though. Because you dont seem to. So are you telling me that all the pros that we see doing warp prism harrass or phoenix harrasss before lategame are bad? Please man. Take your pointless flames with no actual evidence somewhere else. The oracle is fucking awesome. 2 of those in the midgame with proper multitasking is going to completely own and reward players who have the apm/ability to do it whilst macroing. Also, protoss doesn't have 'late game harrass'. DT Expand is not late game, although DT's in the late game are sometimes better. We have harrass units, that can be used in early or late game, depending on certain situations. The only issue protoss has in WoL, is that the stalker is really a bad unit, as is the collosi. Most of Protoss issues are from game design and balance issues with the other races units, not really are own. This UNIT IS GOOD I didn't read a lot of the previous posts you replied to, but you just listed the already existing and vastly superior alternatives to this unit. Aren't you arguing against your own point of the unit being good? No one was saying harass is bad... We are saying why use this 1/2 baked harass when we could just actually harass. See my previous posts for more details.
The oracle isn't 1/2 baked to me.
Warp Prism/4 zealots is taking more away from your army then using the oracle. And in this thread ive pointed out many situations midgame (taldarim altar with 3 bases up for t and p). Where you can out multitask you opponent with 2 oracles and a warp prism. Also delaying 2 of the 4 rax the terran player has for 45 seconds is pretty fucking good.
I think people are jumping the gun hugely to complain. We didn't get the best units, but i think we got units that will reward micro/apm/multitasking/etc. Which is good cause i consider protoss the micro race anyway. So if you can excell at that, then you should get ahead. Disabling 2 mining bases for 45 seconds is not bad at all. Or stopping the starport from pumping vikings out. I think the units toss got will promote alot of strategies and could make us an actual race to be afraid of offensively. Cause currently terran and zerg aren't afraid of any aggression for the most part, except for gimmicky 2 base allins. This changes that.
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I am concerned with staking shredders @ a zerg's natural base's choke. This would preventing Creep and Preventing Zerg form taking a 3rd.
At 20 Damage a sec.
2 would one shot any number of lings and banelings.
6 would one shot any number of Mutas
8 would one shot any number of roaches.
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Something tells me the tempest is going to be useless. Mass corruptors to support broodlords is 200x more common than late game mass muta. What the heck is the tempest going to do?
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
On October 23 2011 03:05 Infleto wrote:
I am concerned with staking shredders @ a zerg's natural base's choke. This would preventing Creep and Preventing Zerg form taking a 3rd.
At 20 Damage a sec.
2 would one shot any number of lings and banelings.
6 would one shot any number of Mutas
8 would one shot any number of roaches.
They've already said the damage doesn't stack. It works like storm.
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Now that I have seen the videos with them explaining the new units I am a lot more ok with the changes. Its too bad the carrier would not work without a drastic change for legacy sake.
I also really don't like the warhound model I just don't think it fits in with he other models and the ground attack looks very anticlimactic.
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On October 23 2011 03:01 BeeNu wrote:
So does anybody else think the new Swarm Host looks like useless? I really can't imagine how to make such a unit worthwhile or even how it's supposed to let the Zerg control a territory or even slow down a push.
The concept of it sounds really cool and useful gameplay wise. However, based on what little they've shown....well, it looked like shit :/
The locusts looked like they needed to have their spawn time reduced from that short demo to have better offensive use. They only cost 200/100 and come from an infestation pit, so maybe they could have some use defending or delaying drop harass at expansions.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
is video of the multiplayer q&a available anywhere?
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Replicants could be sick if they build faster than your higher tech and you can just clone them cheaper instead of building more than one. Would make it easier to remake colossus/void ray armies.
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On October 23 2011 02:35 Chloroplaste wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bL06m.jpg) Hello everyone, What do you think of new terran units from a design point of view? I'm not really found of it and I prefer the firebat and goliath style...
I prefer mechs without wheels on their arms, i could never watch transformers because of this, it was so annoying.
![[image loading]](http://gundam.anime.net/images/mecha/OZ-12SMS.BR.GIF)
honestly you would never guess that this mech could 'transform.'
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Anyone out there who can get a hold of the current stats of the new units that can update liquipedia or something? :/ Would be much appricieated! <3
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EPT![[image loading]](http://mahq.net/mecha/macross/sdfmacross/mbr-04-mk6.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.seraphin.digitalinsomnia.co.uk/images/images/mechrenders/loki.jpg)
