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On October 23 2011 03:21 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 03:17 sitromit wrote:On October 23 2011 03:14 BeeNu wrote:On October 23 2011 03:09 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On October 23 2011 03:01 BeeNu wrote:
So does anybody else think the new Swarm Host looks like useless? I really can't imagine how to make such a unit worthwhile or even how it's supposed to let the Zerg control a territory or even slow down a push. The concept of it sounds really cool and useful gameplay wise. However, based on what little they've shown....well, it looked like shit :/ The locusts looked like they needed to have their spawn time reduced from that short demo to have better offensive use. They only cost 200/100 and come from an infestation pit, so maybe they could have some use defending or delaying drop harass at expansions. The thing is, aside from giving out "free" units periodically it doesn't actually do anything that say, a few Roaches can't do so like, wtf is the point? I just want my Lurker back! Although, aside from that I'm pretty happy with the Zerg changes, Hydras will be finally fixed, Baneling burrow move buff is huge and will allow them to fill a role of controlling space and slowing pushes a lot more and the Ultralisk Charge fixes their problem of mobility and getting stuck. How are hydras being fixed exactly? It's a friggin Hive upgrade. By that time, Hydras are already useless because there's so much AoE and they have very little HP. They're still just as expensive as before for what they're capable of, how easily they die. Zerg still has no anti-air in the early game, and now Protoss can phase out Spores... Naaah, I think early game you can now use Hydras for AA and now they won't lose their utility once Colossus come out because around that time you will be able to get Hive Tech anyways. The biggest current problem with Hydras is that you can get them for a period of time in the early-midgame and then they become a burden because they lack mobility in the lategame, a Hive upgrade is good.
Colossus comes out way before Zerg can reasonably have Hive. Hydras lack mobility in the midgame already. In the early game, Zerg has zero anti-air aside from Queens and Spores and now Spores can be phased. Hydras are not an early game unit, they require Lair tech and are expensive.
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Think the Swarm Host's are getting a bad rap in the thread... In WOL, zerg doesn't have a cloak attack unit (burrowed roaches don't count) so this forces the opposition to get detection. Very important when zerg wants to maintain a defenders advantage. Many protoss builds skip the robo bay vs zerg...they will no longer be able to do this (well also because banelings will be able to move underground as well...but they will probably be too slow to be effective).
The other major advantage the swarm host will have is that it finally has a non-broodlord siege unit with great range. Very important for defenders advantage and forcing unseiges. In fact (it's not clear from the videos) the Swarm Host may be able to outrange the tank and the locusts may not lose their range going around corners (they may have 'as the crow flies' range like creep tumors) which would be very powerful.
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I really loved Shredder. It really helps to achieve creating zones that are blocked from action, just like how say, a Lurker or a bunch of spider mines positioned in a tight area.
Battle Hellion and Shredder together may bring back mech in TvP. And that is just awesome imo.
I loved Swarm Host. If you want to move ahead and kill them, you can get fungalled, surrounded by speedlings, or get caught by those really powerful locusts if you're unlucky. So just like Lurker, it will force the enemy back. Lovely, just lovely.
I like Viper, since it brings Dark Swarm back, but I have concerns about the pulling ability. Granting detection to stuff is great.
Ultralisk burrow charge looks badass, it will help a lot.
I don't really like Replicator, it just did not impress me. It might be completely overpowered or downright stupid depending on what your opponent builds.
Tempest looks great, but almost like....too great. What do you really kill it with if the splash is that good? I want to see the damage modifiers and splash to decide.
I absolutely, absolutely loved Oracle. Such a great concept. You keep your workers, but your mineral income will be terrible. I hope it has a decent cost not to make it OP.
Overall, lovely, lovely changes from Blizzard. HOTS will be amazing, I think with right decisions it can make it look as fun and great as BW in terms of subtleties and the depth of the game.
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On October 23 2011 03:21 Krehlmar wrote:
Also blizzard obviously knows nothing about balance:
"Terran has problem with lategame zealot! They get around this problem with stimpack and kiting!"
No they don't, they EMP them and then the zealots melt. Don't they even watch GSL/MLG finals or what?
Actually emp isn't what melts zealots late game. Zealots are just really bad against maxed out armies. EMP is more for denying guardian shield/ff and shield damage is an added bonus. Zealots are super good in mid sized armies but terrible in big armies. Also there has been no PvTs in GSL finals or MLG finals I think.
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Again, it's not late game zealots that are a problem for Terran. It's the whole package. Yes, late game zealots can die to marines fairly easily if you've EMPed them - but your marines are dying virtually immediately to storm/thermal lance. If you go Marauders to have a slightly meatier composition versus these AoE attacks, the zealots are much stronger since the marauders just don't have the DPS to deal with them - even with the concussive shell effect.
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On October 23 2011 03:24 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 03:21 BeeNu wrote:On October 23 2011 03:17 sitromit wrote:On October 23 2011 03:14 BeeNu wrote:On October 23 2011 03:09 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On October 23 2011 03:01 BeeNu wrote:
So does anybody else think the new Swarm Host looks like useless? I really can't imagine how to make such a unit worthwhile or even how it's supposed to let the Zerg control a territory or even slow down a push. The concept of it sounds really cool and useful gameplay wise. However, based on what little they've shown....well, it looked like shit :/ The locusts looked like they needed to have their spawn time reduced from that short demo to have better offensive use. They only cost 200/100 and come from an infestation pit, so maybe they could have some use defending or delaying drop harass at expansions. The thing is, aside from giving out "free" units periodically it doesn't actually do anything that say, a few Roaches can't do so like, wtf is the point? I just want my Lurker back! Although, aside from that I'm pretty happy with the Zerg changes, Hydras will be finally fixed, Baneling burrow move buff is huge and will allow them to fill a role of controlling space and slowing pushes a lot more and the Ultralisk Charge fixes their problem of mobility and getting stuck. How are hydras being fixed exactly? It's a friggin Hive upgrade. By that time, Hydras are already useless because there's so much AoE and they have very little HP. They're still just as expensive as before for what they're capable of, how easily they die. Zerg still has no anti-air in the early game, and now Protoss can phase out Spores... Naaah, I think early game you can now use Hydras for AA and now they won't lose their utility once Colossus come out because around that time you will be able to get Hive Tech anyways. The biggest current problem with Hydras is that you can get them for a period of time in the early-midgame and then they become a burden because they lack mobility in the lategame, a Hive upgrade is good. Colossus comes out way before Zerg can reasonably have Hive. Hydras lack mobility in the midgame already. In the early game, Zerg has zero anti-air aside from Queens and Spores and now Spores can be phased. Hydras are not an early game unit, they require Lair tech and are expensive.
bah! a zerg crying about hydra cost!? really!!!
at the very LEAST it has excellent DPS unlike gateway units.... Also that oracal that can block a single spore cost 200 gas and stargate tech, it won't be able to kill anything by itself.
you will need a void AND phx with it to lift the queen and actually kill anything... not going to change stargate openers vs zerg that much........
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On October 23 2011 03:18 ToguRo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 03:12 Aiurr wrote:
If that gay warhouds are for real then I am switching to zerg. Terran is no fun anymore. Blizzard makes it into a stupid turtle race... I didn't want more turtling... I wanted more mobility...
Terran cant have everyting ... mech is what terran is really supposed to be
I am talking about mobiility, not about mech units. And I don't agree with you that mech units must be gay and immobile.
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Canada11349 Posts
On October 23 2011 03:17 MattyClutch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 03:04 ohampatu wrote:On October 23 2011 02:57 MattyClutch wrote:On October 23 2011 02:53 ohampatu wrote:On October 23 2011 02:46 Toadvine wrote:On October 23 2011 02:33 The KY wrote:On October 23 2011 02:27 Toadvine wrote:On October 23 2011 02:13 ohampatu wrote:On October 23 2011 02:11 Al Bundy wrote:
I have to say that so far I love the new Protoss Units. I kinda like how the Oracle works, from what I've seen with good enough multitasking, you can literally shut down the opponent's economy.
Also I love the nexus abilities, man this is going to be insane. Exactly. Just picture this: Your observer spots the terran army moving to the middle of map, possibly checking the xel'naga before pushing. You see this, and use 2 oracles at his main and natural to shut down the mining. Terran is going to have be super defensive and play smart because good oracle play will just own. Multitasking and good effective apm will be rewarded. And then the Terran attacks with his army and just rolls you over because you spent 150 gas on a Stargate, and then 400 gas on two Oracles which do jack shit in an actual engagement. Please. You don't know how Oracle builds will play out in terms of cost, time and composition, none of us do. It'll take months of play to see what effect it will really have. Dismissing it as impossible because your half baked theorycrafting says it won't work is really jumping the gun. Imagine another instance where late game a terran drops 20 mules onto a gold base. You block his minerals and while he is pulling back some of his army to deal with it the timer on his mules is ticking down and going to waste. Did you only read the first two lines of my post, or did you choose to ignore the rest because it didn't fit with your desired response? It's not theorycrafting, it's really fucking simple, and I'll lay it out for you again: Right now, a Protoss can die to a 2 base Terran all-in because he chose to build Phoenix instead of getting proper combat units. This problem is obviously exacerbated by Oracles, which cost more and don't do anything at all in a battle. So, unless there's some kind of huge PvT redesign, and Protoss gains a major defensive advantage, you will only see them in the lategame for this reason alone. So yeah, from what has been revealed thus far, it's not something Protoss needs. Protoss has enough expensive lategame harass, we don't need any more. Actually. Your right, its 'really fucking simple'. Your wrong. In PvT, opening phoenix doesn't mean you auto lose, although its possible to have a BO loss. With the current change in warp prisms, many protoss are making them 'very early game' to harrass with by dropping zealots in mineral lines. Using warp prism/zealots actualy costs more than just using the oracle. Protoss users make 'non combat' units on 1 or 2 base and dont 'auto lose' to every allin. I hope you understand the difference between allins, timing pushes, and cheese though. Because you dont seem to. So are you telling me that all the pros that we see doing warp prism harrass or phoenix harrasss before lategame are bad? Please man. Take your pointless flames with no actual evidence somewhere else. The oracle is fucking awesome. 2 of those in the midgame with proper multitasking is going to completely own and reward players who have the apm/ability to do it whilst macroing. Also, protoss doesn't have 'late game harrass'. DT Expand is not late game, although DT's in the late game are sometimes better. We have harrass units, that can be used in early or late game, depending on certain situations. The only issue protoss has in WoL, is that the stalker is really a bad unit, as is the collosi. Most of Protoss issues are from game design and balance issues with the other races units, not really are own. This UNIT IS GOOD I didn't read a lot of the previous posts you replied to, but you just listed the already existing and vastly superior alternatives to this unit. Aren't you arguing against your own point of the unit being good? No one was saying harass is bad... We are saying why use this 1/2 baked harass when we could just actually harass. See my previous posts for more details. The oracle isn't 1/2 baked to me. Warp Prism/4 zealots is taking more away from your army then using the oracle. And in this thread ive pointed out many situations midgame (taldarim altar with 3 bases up for t and p). Where you can out multitask you opponent with 2 oracles and a warp prism. Also delaying 2 of the 4 rax the terran player has for 45 seconds is pretty fucking good. I think people are jumping the gun hugely to complain. We didn't get the best units, but i think we got units that will reward micro/apm/multitasking/etc. Which is good cause i consider protoss the micro race anyway. So if you can excell at that, then you should get ahead. Disabling 2 mining bases for 45 seconds is not bad at all. Or stopping the starport from pumping vikings out. I think the units toss got will promote alot of strategies and could make us an actual race to be afraid of offensively. Cause currently terran and zerg aren't afraid of any aggression for the most part, except for gimmicky 2 base allins. This changes that. Oh I admit the building disable can be useful. I just think the 'mineral FF' is stupid. By the time I can employ that I can drop and do real damage without wasting time, money, and pop on a unit that cannot fight.
That's actually true. Both of the Oracle's abilities are useful, but the unit as a whole doesn't have that much utility. For instance, the old reaver could be used for worker harass and clean out a mineral line or it can knock out a tech building. However, if you get rushed, you can sit it on top of your ramp and defend, or if they spread out their forces to defend drops, you can attack the front with your army with reaver support. However the reaver didn't get out of control with mass reavers because the amount of micro required to be effective meant you could rarely use more than 2 shuttles full of reavers to be effective. So typically you never saw much more than 4 on the map.
Going early oracle doesn't help to hold off early rushes and I wonder if in the end it will be the overseer for the Protoss. We don't need the reaver necessarily, but I wish we got a harass unit that has as many options as a reaver, maybe required a warp prism to be effective and actually killed stuff. Buffs and debuffs are inherently boring compared to lightening storms and exploding shots that actually kills stuff.
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Am I the only one that thinks after watching the Vids that PvT got screwed and Protoss got by far the most useless units (excluding Tempest)!?
Every Protoss ground unit except DT/HT/Zealot/Sentry is weak to the Warhound, and 3 of those are weak to combat hellions!? So, now Terran has 2 compositions to counter Protoss!?
The other two Protoss units are gimmicky at best. Replicant is very expensive so only usefull for units that require lots of upgrading, and the Oracle costs money and doesn't tip the balance in your favor untill the bubbles are up for a long time, and after that everything is just good.
PF Hardcounters Oraclebubbles!?
Seriously, Terran must be so happy.
Zerg POV, I forsee a nerf to the Viper (no Massive) or a buff to the Psi Storm, because Collosi are going to suck.
Last but not least: David Kim said every spellcaster unit has 3 spells. I can only remember 2 for the High Templar!!?
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micro less... seriously Dustin why did blizzard hire him god DAMMIT... None of these units have any of the flares of sc1.
i HATE zealot charge, you CANNOT control them when they charge and they move so slowly otherwise and it removes micro.
Ultralisk charge = sucks. I want a speed upgrade, that's ALL.
Fungal = sucks, and I can't even imagine what it'll be like with both fungal AND darkswarm. Terran would be hopeless
And the protoss units suck dicks except for mineral freezing, that's cool.
You cannot remove carriers
And aoe anti-air is useless really, it's such a high sunk cost for just aoe anti-air, as we know zerg can so easily tech switch, by the time you commited to those guy they'll be pretty worthless as zerg can easily switch out. And mass muta is a cumilative army, you think he'll let you tech all that while massing muta? Thor is reasonable as you can actually get them out early enough but the investment to get those guys out... zerg could've owned your base 10 times over with 100 mutas.
Terran? I don't even know. Again, micro less? Removing movement on helions to make them always viable. Create anti-mech unit with range of 7
Can you imagine 4 helion drop and morphing into robots and just sit at your mineral line? It'll take forever to clean up.
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Shredders are going to be awesome combined with a bunker/conc shell marauders at extreme range for preventing zergling runbys. Dealing with mutas will be easier too - I reckon what I'll probably go mech against zerg in HoTS simply because I'll be able to combine battle hellions, marauders and that new mobile unit to effectively control ground with shredders behind the lines.
I don't think when they designed brood war, they were necessary thinking in terms of What Is Best For ESports. Why don't you let them design their game and have fun with what comes out. They'll test things with pro-gamers. Its in Blizzards interests to make things balanced.
They want a viable terran mech and a viable skytoss. Zerg are actually the most well rounded of any race at this point so their changes are to make underutilized units more effective and give them new abilities.
They'll change the seige zerg thing.
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On October 23 2011 03:24 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 03:21 BeeNu wrote:On October 23 2011 03:17 sitromit wrote:On October 23 2011 03:14 BeeNu wrote:On October 23 2011 03:09 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On October 23 2011 03:01 BeeNu wrote:
So does anybody else think the new Swarm Host looks like useless? I really can't imagine how to make such a unit worthwhile or even how it's supposed to let the Zerg control a territory or even slow down a push. The concept of it sounds really cool and useful gameplay wise. However, based on what little they've shown....well, it looked like shit :/ The locusts looked like they needed to have their spawn time reduced from that short demo to have better offensive use. They only cost 200/100 and come from an infestation pit, so maybe they could have some use defending or delaying drop harass at expansions. The thing is, aside from giving out "free" units periodically it doesn't actually do anything that say, a few Roaches can't do so like, wtf is the point? I just want my Lurker back! Although, aside from that I'm pretty happy with the Zerg changes, Hydras will be finally fixed, Baneling burrow move buff is huge and will allow them to fill a role of controlling space and slowing pushes a lot more and the Ultralisk Charge fixes their problem of mobility and getting stuck. How are hydras being fixed exactly? It's a friggin Hive upgrade. By that time, Hydras are already useless because there's so much AoE and they have very little HP. They're still just as expensive as before for what they're capable of, how easily they die. Zerg still has no anti-air in the early game, and now Protoss can phase out Spores... Naaah, I think early game you can now use Hydras for AA and now they won't lose their utility once Colossus come out because around that time you will be able to get Hive Tech anyways. The biggest current problem with Hydras is that you can get them for a period of time in the early-midgame and then they become a burden because they lack mobility in the lategame, a Hive upgrade is good. Colossus comes out way before Zerg can reasonably have Hive. Hydras lack mobility in the midgame already. In the early game, Zerg has zero anti-air aside from Queens and Spores and now Spores can be phased. Hydras are not an early game unit, they require Lair tech and are expensive.
Yes a few Colossus may come out before Hive tech but typically that isn't really the problem, the Protoss army will still be rather small by that time and you can get by with just flooding Roaches with a few Hydras and maybe some Infestors, the point is still that if you want to get Hydra tech it will actually be viable to use through the entire game instead of instantly being shut down.
Also it's really hard to say at this point but Hydras might even become viable in ZvT in HotS.
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On October 23 2011 03:22 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 03:21 Krehlmar wrote:
Also blizzard obviously knows nothing about balance:
"Terran has problem with lategame zealot! They get around this problem with stimpack and kiting!"
No they don't, they EMP them and then the zealots melt. Don't they even watch GSL/MLG finals or what? EMP owns chargelot/archon comps pretty hard. If they nerf EMP radius like they were talking then terran might have problem with them lategame.........
Still players like MVP and the like have 10+ ghosts = 20+ EMPs.
On October 23 2011 03:22 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 03:21 Krehlmar wrote:
Also blizzard obviously knows nothing about balance:
"Terran has problem with lategame zealot! They get around this problem with stimpack and kiting!"
No they don't, they EMP them and then the zealots melt. Don't they even watch GSL/MLG finals or what? Have you not seen protoss players who split their zealots so they don't get all EMP'd? I know I sure haven't during the GSL. I've seen it during ladder though.
As I said above, splitting doesn't help in the long run since zealots NEED to clump to fight. It's not like splitting marines against banelings where the marines still do their job when split up.
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Sweden492 Posts
OMG sounds we're all gonna be noobs for a while. Balance QQ will rise to new levels I pressume ;-)
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I love, love, love the replicant. It lets me steal a SCV, build a depot, build a few rax and pump out marines! That'll help protoss a lot.
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On October 23 2011 03:25 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 03:21 Krehlmar wrote:
Also blizzard obviously knows nothing about balance:
"Terran has problem with lategame zealot! They get around this problem with stimpack and kiting!"
No they don't, they EMP them and then the zealots melt. Don't they even watch GSL/MLG finals or what? Actually emp isn't what melts zealots late game. Zealots are just really bad against maxed out armies. EMP is more for denying guardian shield/ff and shield damage is an added bonus. Zealots are super good in mid sized armies but terrible in big armies. Also there has been no PvTs in GSL finals or MLG finals I think.
Rain vs MC last year was GSL3 final, but that's not indicative of the current state of the game at all.
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On October 23 2011 02:32 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 02:26 imareaver3 wrote:On October 23 2011 02:16 ohampatu wrote:On October 23 2011 02:14 roymarthyup wrote:
i feel to be balanced, replicants absolutely must not be able to copy drones or scv's.
i can see it now. every game toss will send observer into enemy base, replicate a scv', and build a command center as his third base. keep a scv at home to make barracks and use the CC at your third, take your third, turn it into a planetary, and now the toss with a couple barracks will be massing MARINES with his army.... extremely imbalanced
it was extremely hard for toss to mind control SCV's and drones in BW
it is extremely hard for zerg to NP a scv/probe and make a new tech
it will be EASY for toss to do it with replicants. it will be very OP
i however can live with the idea of the replicant. it just would be too overpowered if it can target scv/drone Somebody has already done the math. And it will take thousands of resources just to get a planetary or OC. Your forgetting that you have to build the CC, then a supply depot, then a barracks (and an engi bay if you want PF). It wont be done ever in any competitive game. Anybody who has the same skill or near the same skill as you, can just come kill you. I wouldn't go that far--I think that it might be useful to get OC's instead of probes in the uber-late game, kinda like Terran occasionally does now. It's a 350/200 (450/200 if you count the supply depot) investment to get the requisite tech to build OC's, which isn't that large late-game. And the extra supply can be critical on a large map with lots of bases to mule. Replicant costs 200/200. That gets you the scv. No you build a CC. So thats 400. So were up to 600/200. Add another 100 for the supply. Add 150 for the rax. We are now up to 850/200. Make the OC (thats 150 right?). We are now up to 1000/200. Or do you want an engi bay? Do you see how its unrealistic that this could be used in any competitive game unless you are 10x better than your opponent?
you spend 200/200 to replicate a SCV, this saves you a probe so thats -200/200 and +50/0
so it costs you 150/200 so far to get a scv
next, you build a command center. this saves you from building a nexus at your third base so thats -400 minerals then +400 minerals
so it costs you 150/200 so far to get a scv+command center (assuming you do it when you would normally take a third so your spending money you would spend on a nexus on another CC instead)
you spend 100 minerals on a depot, this saves you from needing a pylon. so thats -100 minerals then +100 minerals
so far it still costs ONLY 150/200 to get a scv, command center, AND depot
next it costs you 150 minerals to make a barracks and 50/25 on a techlab, but assuming you use this to get marauders its worth it and is simply a form of production. so by spending ONLY 150/200, the protoss now has the ability to create tech labbed raxes to add MARAUDERS to his army at normal cost.
3/3 stalkers actually lose a fight to 0/0 marauders and marauders are cheaper too
next, the protoss can spend 150/100 on a factory and 50/25 on techlab and start adding siegetanks OR warhounds to his army at normal cost
so far, it costs the protoss only 150/200 resources to be able to open up the entire tech tree of terran. pretty overpowered imo. i think the replicant is a great unit but its ability to take scv's/drones surely wont make it past beta
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Well fuck, I really don't know why we complain that the whole package of t1-t3 units can actually beat t1 barracks unit with medivacs...but I like the terran changes, mech will finally work in TvP. The shredder from what I understand absolutely need a nerf against workers though...a couple of them will own/shut down the mineral line way better than any storm or baneling drops ever could.
Can't wait for beta 
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Canada11349 Posts
On October 23 2011 03:25 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 03:21 Krehlmar wrote:
Also blizzard obviously knows nothing about balance:
"Terran has problem with lategame zealot! They get around this problem with stimpack and kiting!"
No they don't, they EMP them and then the zealots melt. Don't they even watch GSL/MLG finals or what? Actually emp isn't what melts zealots late game. Zealots are just really bad against maxed out armies. EMP is more for denying guardian shield/ff and shield damage is an added bonus. Zealots are super good in mid sized armies but terrible in big armies. Also there has been no PvTs in GSL finals or MLG finals I think.
Well that makes sense. The only reason why zealots worked late game BW is because zealots could be spread out, tanks overkilled and arbiters cloaked the zealots so they could close the distance. They could also mine drag into the enemy. Without this, I'm sure zealots would melt just the same in BW.
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new dt rush: oracle disables spores and dts rape ur base since u need a spire to get mobile detection now...
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EPT
