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On April 09 2012 18:44 NeonFox wrote:
HD please check your facts, stating that "lately Stephano has started incorporating ultras in his lategame like Idra does" is not excusable, it is your job to know about the players you are casting.
Same with painuser saying "Stephano's best matchup is ZvT", when you don't know just don't say anything.
This is indeed a big deal.
This is always the most frustrating thing as a viewer to hear, statements that simply aren't true and never were.
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Terrible, absolutely terrible. I muted the stream or listened to the Koreans every time either of you was casting. I'm simply astonished at how so many second-rate casters like you two have appeared to have gotten worse over time. I'm holding back a lot of my criticism because I don't want to get banned for being to "mean", but let me just say that if you truly want to be professional casters then you need to start acting like it. You need, no you must first of all get to high masters rank (on NA server anyways). That right off the bat should help your casting immensely. You need to start treating your casting job like you are preparing for a major exam in college (probably a bad example since I know a lot of you casters have little if any college experience). This means studying replays before and after every broadcast, and memorizing specific player quirks, stats, and strats. It's pretty obvious that you all just show up and expect to wing it. I can't believe this laziness is accepted by the sc2 community.
I recommend studying the translated Korean VoDs that have been posted on TL, and trying your best to imitate their casting performance. Enough already with this weak "I don't need to know anything about the game because I'm just the play-by-play guy" excuse crap.
User was warned for this post
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i have kind of an harsh feedback for HD, hope you take it the right way:
- try to get more knowledge about scII and players
- when casting with painuser, given the disparity of knowlege between you two, it would be smart for you to ask him questions during the cast in order to educate yourself/ the crowd, then listen
you are NOT the technical guy, try to play on your strenghts and get the conversation going, painuser has one of the best CVs for an analytical commentator, he'll compensate you very well.
instead, in more than one occasion, you said something, painuser corrected you, you didn't listen and went on your way.
note: i invested my time for this feedback not to insult you but because i believe you could with these small changes improve a lot the quality of the show
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On April 09 2012 19:03 Hiea wrote:
- Lack of player knowledge, its understandable if you don't know much about the more unknown koreans like Squirtle, but during one cast that were with painuser or hd with another caster, he was pointing out how bomber was inconsistent, then one of you guys are like "Yeah Squirtle really needs to prove it today", these mistakes happen A LOT, you don't know much about the players, the big names like Bomber, everyone knows bomber is inconsistent, but you don't?
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that was appolo talking about bombers inconsistens and than painuser said " yeah squirtle is a really shaeky protoss"
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It's been said by a few before and I'll say it again: HD, your knowledge is not on-par with "high-level" casters like Day9, Apollo, Tasteosis, to an extent Painuser. If anyone's ever watched Day9 at a proper tourney or the GSL with Tasteosis, you'll see them literally pick up on the player getting his gas 30 seconds later, and they'll be able to expand on that and say what implications this might have which is awesome. They are literally able to predict an entire game plan/build based on the tiniest hints, it's amazing to watch.
I'm not saying you should become like this HD, however, greater in game knowledge wouldn't hurt. And for God's sake, please PAY ATTENTION. I saw MKP v MMA where MKP has about 7 marines, 2 helions and getting a starport, and it's obvious it's gunna be some kind of elevator, that Painuser points out after you mention it could be a banshee. That is not really in game-knowledge, just 2 and 2. No co-caster should really have to say that phrase popularised by the GSL (not sure exactly who) "Hold that thought", God that is said alot now  If you need to hold that thought, o-co-caster, that means you need to shut the f*** up and look AT THE VIDEO GAME YOU ARE CURRENTLY BEING PAID TO WATCH :D You get me? It's ridiculous when a drop is happening and the casters have forgotten, or when suddenly a fusion core is plonked down and no-one notices until the BC arrives. Pay attention
I appreciate your style is not this, and more TotalBiscuit Commentary casual, and that's cool too. But then keep it relaxed man! :D
I think the main thing is to stay relaxed man! The reason you have hundreds of thousands of subs from YouTube, myself included is for that relaxed guy that brings us awesome games. Just pretend you're in your room, and keep it cool. :D
I actually REALLY like your questions to the other caster, whether it be Apollo or Pain. That is a nice and neat idea, keep it up! :D
Edit: After reading some, I gotta admit, whoever said that HD/Husky are more "Gateway casters" ie. they introduce you to the game, is so true.
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I think all the criticisms are pretty well warranted here, The one that I want to repeat and will be repeated is know more about the game and the players. I feel like it was really unprepared and a lot of things were just wrong. If you want this to be your job, then please treat it like one. But if you're doing this for fun, well - let someone else who is willing to treat it like a job take it.
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On April 09 2012 20:03 snailz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 19:53 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
A bronze player could tell that no early 2nd gas = no banshee. Just saying, but seeing as he used to be a pro he doesn't have great game knowledge. i was refering to the guy that said PainUser was wrong about saying "it will most likely be hellions because second gas is late which means no banshees", even though he was completely right in his "call" and no, i completely disagree. a guy is on ITG on weekly basis, representing the terran side alongside idra and incontrol for zerg and protoss respectively. it's a show about balance, more or less. so saying he's not knowledgable is ignorant, i am sorry. also, even to date he goes through few rounds in MLG open bracket before elimination, even tho he is caster first player second. that's impressive man, which ever way you look at it. i can't except anyone below semi-pro status critizing his game knowledge... you don't get good at this game without knowing your shit. it's simple as that. and no i'm not PainUser fanboy, in fact i kinda hated him for what he did to Boxer at NASL S1 (no show incident). but you can't deny he knows his stuff. you can dislike his style, whispering, voice, casting chemistry, looks, but not game knowledge. situation like these is why guys like Destiny make fun of people in chat after a game, because even though you think you know better than a (semi)pro, you actually don't, and they really don't need you to tell them what they did wrong, because 9 out of 10 cases it will be wrong and you won't even realize it... anyhows, that's all from me, greets
BTW on ITG wasn't Painuser the one that was saying about the 1/1/1, "if they don't have cloak, don't get a robo". Sorry but sometimes I do wonder about Painuser... ITG rarely talks about the actual game anyway.
Well if he has good game knowledge then it definitely isn't outside Terran. He may have good knowledge as a player but he isn't doing a good job applying it as a caster.
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I was impressed by the way HD and PU behaved in front of the camera. Nice clothes for once, and both made an effort to look at each other as well as the camera, which I found very professional. Especially from HD who I haven't seen much at all.
As for what was actually said during the casting, mistakes have happened, and have been noticed. I don't think anything else needs to be said about those. Please watch out for things like that.
Another thing was perceived lack of analysis. I know PU is knowledgeable about the game, but sometimes it felt like he drifted off into describing what was going on in the game right now, rather than focussing what will be going on in a minute or two, like I would expect an analytical caster to do. It's a small personal annoyance for me. Don't need two people to tell me a drone is going this way, or a pylon is being built, or blink stalkers are blinking. I want someone to focus on upgrades, tech path, and strategy. One of the casters should always be able to say how both players want to win the game, what kind of army they are going to max out on, how they are going to attack, and what the result of a particular engagement means for both players. Solid, basic, strategical analysis.
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Not sure if either of them having been casting on Youtube recently, but it definitely seems like being dropped from regular IGN casting has led to a serious decline in their casting abilities and knowledge.
Definitely nowhere near the level that might be expected from IGN's premiere event with a $100k prizepool.
Absolutely put to shame by almost all the other casters at the event.
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There are a lot of things said here but I just want to say one important thing:
- More study before the events.
Take a three-day break before the events and study the important players and how they play a lot. Get away from the office and do 12 hours of just watching/analyzing and learning the players. This is especially important when there are so many players that you don't know that well.
+ This is something a lot of casters should do before major tournaments.
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I think the most important thing is to pay attention to the game and the production tab.
Its completely pointless for HD to talk about 'big roach play at 12 minutes' when Protoss had cut probes at 46 and was doing a 3 immortal timing attack. It was so blatantly obvious that Squirtle was doing this vs Nestea on Daybreak, yet HD kept larping on about a maxed roach timing attack. It would be like talking abouthow a Terran was going to try to defend a roach baneling all in when he had built 6 rax on 1 base.
If you watch Artosis in the GSL, he will be talking about the builds of the players, the implications, the possible followups, and how each player should react. Painuser, being a Terran player, should be saying things like 'the 2 base Thor, Banshee all in' is quite popular amongst Korean players, and the quick double gas after early expand points towards this very much. Instead, we often just here play by play by both cast members, but poorly done because of lack of attention to the production tab and the minimap. Painuser is very good at evaluating situations just gone by though, and thats my favourite part of his casting.
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I was surprised to leave the event thinking that PainUser couldnt have had a worse performance. The loads of BS that left his mouth was horrible, you'd think that being a not too old pro-gamer would make your have some understanding of match-situations but even my dog was crinching his teeth at some of your call outs and analysiz.
To be a bit constructive, everything doesnt have to be HUGE, IMPRESSIVE, DIRE, EXTREMELY, QUESTIONABLE when its just regular play with insignificant outcome for the game.
I hope you and IPL take all the criticism to heart and that we dont have to see the two of you back next time, atleast until there's a difference. Practise makes perfect, but only when you know you have LOADS to get better at I suppose.
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As a caster it is your main job to know about players playstyles and their results.
Its totally understandable that u cannot know everything about each and every player, but then please:
Dont say stuff that isnt even correct just so that it looks you DO know about those things and you acutally even talked to the players about it when its clearly not the case sometimes. Those are the facepalm moments, Apollo doesnt have those moments because he
a) knows almost everything about them, he does his job
b) doesnt lie about things he doesnt know - when he doesnt know he says it or he simply doenst mention it.
Those are things that especially PainUser and HD seem to do wrong a lot - even artosis sometimes does that wrong imo.
Also, the knowledge of some builds is just not there. For instance the cannon at the front of White-ras natural in PvT is a common build on the GM europe ladder, and you could even see Pomi do this at MLG Arena (although its common to do it with nexus first and put the forge at 17 after the first gateway, while white-ra did it in a strange way). Hearing things like "ive never seen this in my life" - "neither did I" just hurts me - and this happens quite regularly in tournaments.
Its their job to know those things.
Also, PainUser / HD leak a bit of enthusiasm when they cast. Watch Apollo/CatsPajamas and compare it to PainUser/HD. Its like 2 different levels of casting sadly enough. But thats rly important for live casts as well.
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As a casual viewer, I felt like you two were just saying stuff that really doesn't really add to the "show". You don't have to be a transcript for blind people. For casual viewers, you don't have to be technical to be a good caster, but just think about what would be interesting to hear if were you watching yourself. As many people have mentioned already, if you don't know the technical aspect of a certain part of the game, don't mention it. It's annoying when a prediction or analysis is totally off. Also to an extent, being too vague about technical aspects of the game doesn't really add anything.
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saying shit like zvp is all about the 12 min roach push is unforgiveable. There are a lot of nuanches that can be studied and saying that just makes one look lazy or unprepared. Muta/infestor/broodlord compositions are rampart. STUDY
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Your glasses sucked.
User was warned for this post
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I love your casting HD. Painuser thinks he knows it all, and he keeps talking so "secretive". I don't like Painuser because of that.
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I really enjoy your casting = )
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I do believe these guys haven't been casting for awhile doing some behind the scenes stuff for IPL so they could be rusty. That being said you guys definitely need to work on it some. Seems like you may be out of the loop with the game lately.
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On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote:
I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS.
Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Sounds like you want Totalbiscuit style casting, ie hype and very little knowledge.
I'm totally the opposite and found even I was disappointed with IPL. I know that not every casting duo can be Tastosis, but I just felt the knowledge from the casters was lacking at IPL and often they were making some basic errors. It's fine to make mistakes, but the way you recover from them is what makes it all okay. A light joke or something would be great and casters that have genuine charisma and a good relationship with each other covers up 99.9% of all mistakes imo.
I felt also that the between games, HD spent more time just going 'Can we hear some noise' than the casters actually properly analysing games. I would in fact point towards the mass advert/ kpop playing as a sign that indeed you guys casting didn't actually have a lot of insightful stuff to say. Maybe I am reading a little in between the lines and coming up with something thats not there but it's just the feeling I got.
The whole 'make noise' thing was also probably putting the crowd off more than anything else, like you guys had picked up on the criticism of the crowd and were trying to force them into making noise. Forced enthusiasm is never as good as natural enthusiasm. If the crowd are a bit quiet, you shouting that will not make everything okay, it just highlights it and makes it awkward imo.
I'd say Wolf, DoA and Khaldor good, HD and PainUser not so, I'm sorry to say. CatsPyjamas was decent enough, I'd like to see him casting more with DoA much like the IGN ToC etc as I feel they work pretty well together.
Overall, I'd say I'd like to see you guys working on knowledge and adding in something to the casts that add some of your personality.
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EPT
