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On October 12 2011 02:25 DoublespeakUS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 22:33 Zandar wrote:
I watched you a lot in the early days before and during beta, but at a certain point I didn't like your casting anymore and I wasn't sure why, but in retrospect I think I know.
Eventually you changed from that enthousiastic kid nerd into that sales guy I get at the door that wants to sell me something I don't want.
The original genuine enthusiasm started to sound fake, you started to dress in a suit, your smile became that McDonalds guy smile, your voice too slick. You got a commercial air around you like I'm doing anything for my youtube viewer count, I want your money.
People also mention the lack of knowledge compared to guys like Day9 and Artosis a lot, but this in itself is no issue at all, because I can watch DJWheat, Husky and Tasteless fine.
But there is a difference, these last 3 don't give me the feeling they "sell" me stuff they don't know, pretending like they do, while you often give me that feeling you do.
These 2 things combined are your biggest issue I think. At least that's what made me stop believing what you say eventually and the main reason I stopped watching you.
And this can be fixed. Because you are still that masters league sc2 zerg nerd. And you do have the casting skills.
Silly thing is that I do think your enthusiasm is genuine, but you somehow make it feel fake.
I think you should try to be yourself more, be the genuine HD, try to get rid of the fake sales guy thingy and you'll be a lot better soon.
This 1000x! This is exactly how I felt and I couldn't put it into words. I subscibed to HD in the beta and loved it. But now I remember you doing those give-a-ways, advertisements and then MLG/GSL started and I focused on that. You honestly looked more comfortable plugging Visine then you did when casting.
whoa whoa that's pretty heavy, I do totally get what you guys are saying. however I do have to defend HD on those points, we can see that HD is doing his best to be just more professional and is adopting some of these mannerisms from other professionals and may be rubbing you guys the wrong way.
At the same time it's clear that he does want to take it above the frat-boy level. As far as the "fake sales guy" thing, it's just a symptom of HD simply trying too hard, that's all it is, IMO.
I don't see a problem with the suit, the "pro" sounding radio voice. It's what is expected in order to make the jump from complete amateur to something that's actually credible. I don't know if HD attended any kind of broadcasting school or courses but I think he can definitely learn.
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After reading all 17 pages of criticism thus far (as well as critiques from past threads such as Husky's), I'm quickly arriving at the conclusion that we, as a collective group of spectators, have no idea what we want in our commentary and probably won't ever agree on a model for the ideal caster.
I feel like PU and HD are going to have a hell of a time figuring out what to ignore and what to focus on when reading this thread. One post wants HD to focus on improving his analysis, the other post wants him to just be play-by-play. One post wants the pair to predict builds, the next advises against it. One post wants the production tab open, the next post wants it closed.
I'm not expecting a hive-minded response here, but the range of responses has been wider than the Grand Canyon, and can probably be best represented by taking a bell-curve and having a 500 lb man sit smack in the middle of it. Nonetheless, its fascinating to analyze.
The fact is we'll probably never agree on whether play-by-play is superior to in-depth analysis. We all agree that balance is key, but nobody can precisely articulate what that balance is, besides pointing at Tastosis.
There seems to be a consistent 50/50 polarization between people who want their casters to favor heavy build inference and prediction versus simply delivering the action in a smooth and exciting tone. Then, within the confines of the latter, people still can't agree on on what makes a good caster voice. I still see people crap on CatsPajamas and he has arguably the smoothest, most articulate voice out there.
I think it's important to try and weed out things that vary with personal taste from things that, if improved upon, will help anyone be a better caster.
So far, the things I think most people would agree on, without getting into the play-by-play/analysis/caster voice debate, are:
1) Better observing, minimap watching, and reacting overall.
2) Research of the player's backgrounds and previous games/wins.
3) HD could stand to up his game knowledge by understanding the subtle intricacies of build orders and timings which are paramount at high level play.
Note: If you're going to say something like "Sorry, HD clearly doesn't have enough game knowledge" Or, my favorite from this thread:
On October 11 2011 21:30 icjOo wrote:
Hd dont know shit about the game, im diamond and i feel i know more than him.
You need to elaborate on that. Give a specific suggestion. What do you know more that he doesn't? What is he lacking?
5) Less corny jokes, or at least let them come more organically as a result of the chemistry rather than forcing them (that is, if this isn't already what happens). Humor isn't something you can force out, just let it ride and the humorous situations will come naturally (IE: Marine watching the factory burn down wishing he was a fireman).
6) Be a bit more accurate with regards to summarizing the state of the game. Oftentimes it seems one person is touted as being behind when they're actually in decent shape. If it looks close, an excellent way of remaining neutral yet still providing insight would be to do a quick summary of the supply numbers, workers killed, and current tech of both players. You can then let the viewer make their own conclusions from there. Also the act of summarizing those 3 things may jog your brain and help you to be more accurate in analysis.
7) Containing excitement for the proper moments. This is a tough one to master I think. TvZ seems like a great example of a matchup where it is easy to get massively excited when banelings are about to hit marines.
Many times we see the Terran have a gargantuan lead and the Zerg manages to get some big baneling hits. In many cases those hits, while insane to watch, ultimately aren't going to affect the outcome of the game when there are still 60 more marines+tanks pushing their way up another path on the map and the Zerg has exhausted his resources. The commentators get excited and the crowd starts smelling a comeback when the game still isn't even remotely close.
Recognizing the pivotal moments and saving your energy for them would be a great skill to master.
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On October 12 2011 02:25 DoublespeakUS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 22:33 Zandar wrote:
I watched you a lot in the early days before and during beta, but at a certain point I didn't like your casting anymore and I wasn't sure why, but in retrospect I think I know.
Eventually you changed from that enthousiastic kid nerd into that sales guy I get at the door that wants to sell me something I don't want.
The original genuine enthusiasm started to sound fake, you started to dress in a suit, your smile became that McDonalds guy smile, your voice too slick. You got a commercial air around you like I'm doing anything for my youtube viewer count, I want your money.
People also mention the lack of knowledge compared to guys like Day9 and Artosis a lot, but this in itself is no issue at all, because I can watch DJWheat, Husky and Tasteless fine.
But there is a difference, these last 3 don't give me the feeling they "sell" me stuff they don't know, pretending like they do, while you often give me that feeling you do.
These 2 things combined are your biggest issue I think. At least that's what made me stop believing what you say eventually and the main reason I stopped watching you.
And this can be fixed. Because you are still that masters league sc2 zerg nerd. And you do have the casting skills.
Silly thing is that I do think your enthusiasm is genuine, but you somehow make it feel fake.
I think you should try to be yourself more, be the genuine HD, try to get rid of the fake sales guy thingy and you'll be a lot better soon.
This 1000x! This is exactly how I felt and I couldn't put it into words. I subscibed to HD in the beta and loved it. But now I remember you doing those give-a-ways, advertisements and then MLG/GSL started and I focused on that. You honestly looked more comfortable plugging Visine then you did when casting.
That ! all the words , I couldn't say so politely. so in short: fake.
I couldn't stand you anymore, and unsubscribed long ago. everything sounds fake. is like "omg one ling is going to enter the base, omg omg, oh he enters!!!! he is going to mineral line! what is him gonna do, omg. ... ... oh he dies... hahaha, so... " really over excitement... makes me face palm, at same time you miss drops in the other base. i can stand TB and Apollo smiling, but not this. sorry.
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It's gotten better but a few times in IPL3 you guys just make insanely inaccurate comments like "omg this MASSIVE protoss army will absolutely destroy that small bio force in an engagement" and I look to the top right and the terran is up 30 supply and we can even see via production tab the terran is ahead on upgrades. Stuff like that just makes the casting really unpleasant. Unsurprisingly, after said engagement the protoss army is nowhere to be seen and you guys are screaming at the top of your lungs at the incredible micro pulled off by the terran.
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I think Painuser did all you could, i know HD is masters, so he should have great game sense (or at least above average) so please put that knowledge to good use and make an informative cast! One of you should be purely color commentary and the other should be talking analytically creating a good balance!
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Don't particularly like Painuser as a commentator but you two made a really good team in the entire IPL3 season and would like to see/hear more of you two casting together.
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I've been waiting for a thread like this.
Other casters sometimes do this but not nearly to the extent of you two. Stop being judges and just cast the game. I dont give a shit about what PainUser thinks that the players should have done in any given situation. Just cast the game and stop giving your two cents about every players every move.
You dont see this in any other game. "We'll if I were Gretzky I would have passed the puck back to the blueline, but for some reason Gretzky is deciding to pass to his left wing. I cannot understand this paly by gretzky, looks like a very unstandard decision by Gretzky"
Like Honestly. I want play by play, and possibly some insight on why they did what they did. But dont go on about how a player is making "rookie mistakes".
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3 things basically are my criticisms and why I mute when HD is casting or just dont watch. For example I skipped all the casts of prelims up to IPL3 but watched HD + Painuser at IPL3 to see if he had gotten better and unfortunately not.
1) Consistently says inaccurate things to the point it takes me out of the game, mistakes happen but when its constant I can't take it.
2) Screaming during exciting moments (and this is my major complaint) because I have to babysit my volume control. Getting a little louder is fine and being excited is awesome but HD's volume when action is happening is SO much louder that I have to turn it down constantly then turn it back up after the action. Please for the love of god fix this, its a basic of any casting for any e/sport.
3) Making up pretend drama about the match when its obviously over. This is a minor one but it gets under my skin. When one guy is at 150 supply and the other is at 50 there is no need to say "he could come back from this" "hes still in this match" etc... its just silly.
I like painuser alot and I actually like HD's style of casting but the above 3 problems that HD has always had and not improved on over the months cause me to mute him or just plain skip the broadcast. Hope this is helpful in some way, I intentionally didn't include any thoughts on personal style or taste in casters but just the technical side that makes me reach for the mute button.
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On October 12 2011 05:15 RoachyRoach wrote:
I've been waiting for a thread like this.
Other casters sometimes do this but not nearly to the extent of you two. Stop being judges and just cast the game. I dont give a shit about what PainUser thinks that the players should have done in any given situation. Just cast the game and stop giving your two cents about every players every move.
You dont see this in any other game. "We'll if I were Gretzky I would have passed the puck back to the blueline, but for some reason Gretzky is deciding to pass to his left wing. I cannot understand this paly by gretzky, looks like a very unstandard decision by Gretzky"
Like Honestly. I want play by play, and possibly some insight on why they did what they did. But dont go on about how a player is making "rookie mistakes".
My thoughts exactly. This so hard.
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On October 12 2011 05:02 AzurewinD wrote:After reading all 17 pages of criticism thus far (as well as critiques from past threads such as Husky's), I'm quickly arriving at the conclusion that we, as a collective group of spectators, have no idea what we want in our commentary and probably won't ever agree on a model for the ideal caster. I feel like PU and HD are going to have a hell of a time figuring out what to ignore and what to focus on when reading this thread. One post wants HD to focus on improving his analysis, the other post wants him to just be play-by-play. One post wants the pair to predict builds, the next advises against it. One post wants the production tab open, the next post wants it closed. I'm not expecting a hive-minded response here, but the range of responses has been wider than the Grand Canyon, and can probably be best represented by taking a bell-curve and having a 500 lb man sit smack in the middle of it. Nonetheless, its fascinating to analyze. The fact is we'll probably never agree on whether play-by-play is superior to in-depth analysis. We all agree that balance is key, but nobody can precisely articulate what that balance is, besides pointing at Tastosis. There seems to be a consistent 50/50 polarization between people who want their casters to favor heavy build inference and prediction versus simply delivering the action in a smooth and exciting tone. Then, within the confines of the latter, people still can't agree on on what makes a good caster voice. I still see people crap on CatsPajamas and he has arguably the smoothest, most articulate voice out there. I think it's important to try and weed out things that vary with personal taste from things that, if improved upon, will help anyone be a better caster. So far, the things I think most people would agree on, without getting into the play-by-play/analysis/caster voice debate, are: 1) Better observing, minimap watching, and reacting overall. 2) Research of the player's backgrounds and previous games/wins. 3) HD could stand to up his game knowledge by understanding the subtle intricacies of build orders and timings which are paramount at high level play. Note: If you're going to say something like "Sorry, HD clearly doesn't have enough game knowledge" Or, my favorite from this thread: Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 21:30 icjOo wrote:
Hd dont know shit about the game, im diamond and i feel i know more than him. You need to elaborate on that. Give a specific suggestion. What do you know more that he doesn't? What is he lacking?5) Less corny jokes, or at least let them come more organically as a result of the chemistry rather than forcing them (that is, if this isn't already what happens). Humor isn't something you can force out, just let it ride and the humorous situations will come naturally (IE: Marine watching the factory burn down wishing he was a fireman). 6) Be a bit more accurate with regards to summarizing the state of the game. Oftentimes it seems one person is touted as being behind when they're actually in decent shape. If it looks close, an excellent way of remaining neutral yet still providing insight would be to do a quick summary of the supply numbers, workers killed, and current tech of both players. You can then let the viewer make their own conclusions from there. Also the act of summarizing those 3 things may jog your brain and help you to be more accurate in analysis. 7) Containing excitement for the proper moments. This is a tough one to master I think. TvZ seems like a great example of a matchup where it is easy to get massively excited when banelings are about to hit marines. Many times we see the Terran have a gargantuan lead and the Zerg manages to get some big baneling hits. In many cases those hits, while insane to watch, ultimately aren't going to affect the outcome of the game when there are still 60 more marines+tanks pushing their way up another path on the map and the Zerg has exhausted his resources. The commentators get excited and the crowd starts smelling a comeback when the game still isn't even remotely close. Recognizing the pivotal moments and saving your energy for them would be a great skill to master.
I disagree completely. It all comes down to know your shit or shut up, people are just advising in opposite directions on how to fix it.
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I honestly feel all the casters who cast games in foreign tournaments have little to no knowledege of the game/players.husky,painuser,gretorp,djwheat,Hd.catspajamas and whoever else i forgot to mention excluding day9. Do you guys follow the korean scene at all? just wondering. Maybe it's Just me but im extremely picky on the casters.God I hate moeltrap and doa.
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On October 12 2011 05:06 Grimmac wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 02:25 DoublespeakUS wrote:On October 11 2011 22:33 Zandar wrote:
I watched you a lot in the early days before and during beta, but at a certain point I didn't like your casting anymore and I wasn't sure why, but in retrospect I think I know.
Eventually you changed from that enthousiastic kid nerd into that sales guy I get at the door that wants to sell me something I don't want.
The original genuine enthusiasm started to sound fake, you started to dress in a suit, your smile became that McDonalds guy smile, your voice too slick. You got a commercial air around you like I'm doing anything for my youtube viewer count, I want your money.
People also mention the lack of knowledge compared to guys like Day9 and Artosis a lot, but this in itself is no issue at all, because I can watch DJWheat, Husky and Tasteless fine.
But there is a difference, these last 3 don't give me the feeling they "sell" me stuff they don't know, pretending like they do, while you often give me that feeling you do.
These 2 things combined are your biggest issue I think. At least that's what made me stop believing what you say eventually and the main reason I stopped watching you.
And this can be fixed. Because you are still that masters league sc2 zerg nerd. And you do have the casting skills.
Silly thing is that I do think your enthusiasm is genuine, but you somehow make it feel fake.
I think you should try to be yourself more, be the genuine HD, try to get rid of the fake sales guy thingy and you'll be a lot better soon.
This 1000x! This is exactly how I felt and I couldn't put it into words. I subscibed to HD in the beta and loved it. But now I remember you doing those give-a-ways, advertisements and then MLG/GSL started and I focused on that. You honestly looked more comfortable plugging Visine then you did when casting. That ! all the words , I couldn't say so politely. so in short: fake. I couldn't stand you anymore, and unsubscribed long ago. everything sounds fake. is like "omg one ling is going to enter the base, omg omg, oh he enters!!!! he is going to mineral line! what is him gonna do, omg. ... ... oh he dies... hahaha, so... " really over excitement... makes me face palm, at same time you miss drops in the other base. i can stand TB and Apollo smiling, but not this. sorry.
This is a harsh personal criticism but I think it addresses a real issue that many people are voicing. And honestly, I think a lot (if not a majority) of casters do this so don't take it too hard.
Azure makes a very important point about giving effective advice that can make discussions of anything richer and healthier.
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I generally like the combo. Its not perfect yet but i think you are getting better.
@Painuser: Your knowledge about Terran is great and i like that you give insight what you would do. It's viable because you know what it is like to play terran on a high level. I love your hyphe like "DID HE REALLY MISS THAT SUPPLY DEPOT" (on shakuras). It is (feels) very real. I would like to see more of that. (but don't force it) Sometimes you just say in a normal voice, "there is a drop".
@HD: i subscribed to you at the beginning of beta and watched every sigle video of you for like half a year. I did not stop because you are bad, i stopped because i started to watch players' streams and tournaments' streams. I think you heavily improved in that time. But i feel somewhere was a turning point. I am not sure what it was. It felt like you tried to be more like Husky which you are not and which is fine. Just try to be more yourself. Don't hype things you are not hyped about. And i have to agree that at some points you overhyped some things a bid and forced "jokes". Go back to your roots, be the solid, professional caster with the good voice.
Don't give up. 
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Think you guys did great and I really enjoyed it !
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On October 12 2011 05:11 PandaMonk wrote:
I think Painuser did all you could, i know HD is masters, so he should have great game sense (or at least above average) so please put that knowledge to good use and make an informative cast! One of you should be purely color commentary and the other should be talking analytically creating a good balance!
Color commentary IS the analytical role. You're basically saying "one of you should be doing pure analysis and the other should be talking analytically."
There are two roles: Color commentary(analysis) and play-by-play.
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I think HD and Painuser complement each other well, since HD is more of an enthusiastic funny caster and Painuser is more of an analytical caster. So if I were to make a suggestion for improvement, I would say focus on those roles. DON'T try to have Painuser be an enthusiastic funny shoutcaster while HD focuses on analysis or something, cuz that just doesn't work. Just work on complementing each other with the styles you're each good at, rather than trying to do things that just aren't your specialty. You wouldn't play starcraft like that, so don't cast like that either. Play with your style, not somebody else's.
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On October 12 2011 05:02 AzurewinD wrote:
After reading all 17 pages of criticism thus far (as well as critiques from past threads such as Husky's), I'm quickly arriving at the conclusion that we, as a collective group of spectators, have no idea what we want in our commentary and probably won't ever agree on a model for the ideal caster.
while you're definitely right in that in 17 pages you'll find 1,000 differing opinions, I must give a 1 word counter example; tastosis.
you'll find little if any hate for them even though everyone has differing opinions on what they want to see.
you can even list day9/XXX, almost any combo with day9 is well received whether its wheat, jp, dapollo, even day9/husky received a lot of praise at the last MLG.
some people have it and some people don't. I just don't feel this HD/PU combo has 'it'. That doesn't have to be a permanent branding either, I used to HATE husky but at the most recent MLG husky/day9 really won me over and I've been supporting husky ever since. If freaking husky can turn me from a hater to a fan, I'm sure HD/PU could do the same with some work.
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On October 12 2011 06:18 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 05:02 AzurewinD wrote:
After reading all 17 pages of criticism thus far (as well as critiques from past threads such as Husky's), I'm quickly arriving at the conclusion that we, as a collective group of spectators, have no idea what we want in our commentary and probably won't ever agree on a model for the ideal caster.
while you're definitely right in that in 17 pages you'll find 1,000 differing opinions, I must give a 1 word counter example; tastosis. you'll find little if any hate for them even though everyone has differing opinions on what they want to see. you can even list day9/XXX, almost any combo with day9 is well received whether its wheat, jp, dapollo, even day9/husky received a lot of praise at the last MLG. some people have it and some people don't. I just don't feel this HD/PU combo has 'it'. That doesn't have to be a permanent branding either, I used to HATE husky but at the most recent MLG husky/day9 really won me over and I've been supporting husky ever since. If freaking husky can turn me from a hater to a fan, I'm sure HD/PU could do the same with some work.
On October 12 2011 05:02 AzurewinD wrote:
The fact is we'll probably never agree on whether play-by-play is superior to in-depth analysis. We all agree that balance is key, but nobody can precisely articulate what that balance is, besides pointing at Tastosis.
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ouch, this folks is why you must read start to finish before replying.
/tips hat.
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Great job to both of you. You guys are starting to get right up there at quality casting with my favorite teams (Tastosis, K9).
You didn't do too much of this, but both of you should try and improve the conciseness of your points / analysis. Using fewer words to get the same point across = more win
Looking forward to hearing more from both of you in the future
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EPT
