Our Protoss Heroes (GSL Spoiler Alert) - Page 23

On September 20 2011 17:51 necrimanci wrote:
races are fine - maps are broken

On September 20 2011 18:18 MrProb wrote:


read something here and watch some games before post =)

On September 20 2011 11:37 Arisen wrote:


Link me the games where protoss isn't playing like shit and gets on 3-4 base in a decent position and loses to a zerg.

What's wrong with 3 base protoss? Well, you see, protoss units are much more cost effective than zerg units. As zerg has weak air supperiority fighters (corrupters) so it has a hard time dealing with colossus, which destroys everyting extremely quickly on the ground. The only units that have enough armor/health to survive versus colossus, the roach and the ultralisk, are very poor at dealing with a developed protoss army of stalker/colossus. Infestors evened the playing field somewhat, but due to the high range of the protoss army and the blink mechanic, infestors are quickly sniped late game. Add in HT, Mothership and void rays and the ball gets even stronger. Also, the zergs cool "hook" is supposed to be how fast they replenish; however, due to the WG mechanic, you can sit on a 200/200 army with protoss and in 5 seconds have as many stalkers as you have gateways (a lot), actually much faster than a zerg; the 300 food push is actually stronger/faster for protoss. As a result, the zerg has to have a significant advantage going into late game or will pretty much die very easily to the protoss ball (for a long while some top protoss players didn't practice PvZ because they felt it was impossible to lose unless they did something stupid). The infestor is definitely strong midgame, but it has to be. If it isn't, zerg is left with a less powerful midgame than protoss and still gets dominated lategame.

On September 20 2011 18:18 MrProb wrote:


read something here and watch some games before post =)

On September 20 2011 05:49 Destructicon wrote:
While I admire the original poster's attempt to inspire hope in the hearts of all the protoss players, the protoss community and all the protoss fans, I can't help but feel that these innovators, don't have anything to innovate upon and that our hopes will be dashed upon the rocks and will crumble to pieces.

I am going to try and say this cleanly and efficiently.
The problem with protoss is not the lack of innovation, it is the lack of strength and the multitude of weaknesses that can be exploited.

This problem is most evident in the TvP match up and is grotesquely blown out of proportion by the 1/1/1 style of opening and variations.

Problem number 1 (P1). The protoss tier 1 and 1.5 is week against a basic tier 1.5 terran army without the use of specialist units (sentries, HT), or higher tech (colossis, HT). Marines do phenomenal DPS and in combination with Marauders are deadly because marauders can just kite zealots forever even with charge, and marauders also rip apart stalkers. This leads to problem number 2.

P2.Protoss specialist units are too easy to be countered and too expensive. Ghosts can EMP from a bigger range then a HT can feedback, EMP can potentially neutralize many HT and sentries while HT can only feedback 1 unit at a time. EMP also destroyes shields which in some cases means 50% of a protoss effective health. Ghosts contribute with real DPS even after their energy is spent, and they also do double damage against light (zealots). Ghosts with cloak can survive for a good time as well, which also puts into grave perspective problem number 3.

P3. Protoss don't have enough mobile detection, terran and zerg both have at least one more means of detection then a unit. Zerg has Overseers and Fungal growth, terran has EMP, Raven and scan. Not only do the terrans and zerg have more methods of detection, but their detector units also fulfill different roles and are stronger. The overseer can help with scouting via changeling and can also delay a critical tech or reinforcements with contaminate. Raven's provide invaluable support via point defense drone, and also have the potential to do massive damage with hunter seeker missile or harass a mineral line with auto-turrets. Lastly the detection of terran and protoss is more easily available, scans and EMPs are easy to get or already part of the terran arsenal, overseers are unlocked just by teching up to lair, and infestors are now part of many lineups.

Now, if you add up all the problems you get the following scenario.
Against a terran 1/1/1 a protoss is forced to get a robo so he can have detection. Because of the lack of other detection methods the protoss becomes predictable, if he doesn't get a robotics for observers he risks dying to cloaked banshees. Also observers are easy to snipe, they have the lowest HP of any detector, and once a scan goes of they are dead. Now because protoss was forced to get robo they now have to add immortals to the army, and while great against tanks, the backbone of a 1/1/1 is the marine, and mass marines rip apart immortals, and once immortals are dead, the T1 protoss army crumbles.

Normally in balance of RTS games, if units are very cheep they should be a lot weaker (zerg), if units are more expensive they should be stronger (protoss), however, protoss T1 units are really not that good for the amount they cost, zealots and stalkers are way too weak without sentries, and against a 1/1/1 sentries don't help all that much because tanks have huge range, do massive damage, and there are also banshees that can mess them over.

This problem is put into sharp focus in games where, you see a terran not expand, you see the protoss fast expand at min 4, and at 12 minutes into the game the terran has a bigger supply army then the protoss. Its a problem in game balance that a 1 base player could have equal or more supply then a player on 2 bases for 66% of the game. What is even more wrong is that the 1 base player's army is so strong that it can annihilate the 2 base player's army.

Now, if we look away from the 1/1/1 and focus on the meta game, in a late game scenario the protoss doesn't stand much chance. A terran bio ball is cheaper to replenish, is more durable because of medivacs, and it does more DPS then the standard tier 1.5 of protoss. Protoss needs sentries and HT or colossis, however, sentries and HT are easily countered by ghosts, colossis are easily countered by vikings. In a head to head fight, the terran just needs to have the patience to emp the specialists, snipe the colossis with vikings, then the bio ball an just do the rest. Also warp prism micro with HT isn't so hot because they can be sniped by vikings, just the same way colossis are sniped. To rub salt onto the wounds, EMP also directly reduce survivability of protoss units by destroying shields.

Now I ask, where can you innovate in there?
Protoss are already using 99% of their units, they use zealots, stalkers, sentries, HT, colossus, observer and warp prism. Protoss air force is weak, they Phoenix and Void rays are already easily countered by units the terran already gets, marines, vikings and ghosts. Carriers cost too much, take too much time to build and require too big numbers to be effective. Carriers in small number are easily sniped by vikings. Mothership is even worst because it can be EMPed from farther away then it can vortex, once EMPed it becomes a big meat shield waiting to die horribly to vikings and marines.

How can you innovate against a 1/1/1, when from the get go, you need to get a robo for detection? Also how can you innovate a build against the 1/1/1 when you risk creating a build that can completely counter the 1/1/1 but fail miserably to form of early pressure?

And, keep in mind that, terrans still haven't widely adopted the use of ravens and/or mass ravens. With patch 1.4 that might change because, seeker missiles will be able to outrun zealots even with charge, and stalkers and sentries and probles, and ravens also hard counter stalkers by reducing their DPS to 0 via PDD.

Against zerg the problems aren't quite as bad, but they aren't great either. The timings of 4 gates and 6 gates has been figured out. Protoss can't do 4 gate because it won't work, the zerg can prepare an appropriate defense while still having a 1 base advantage. If protoss chooses to fast expand into a 6 gate, the zerg can just take a quick 3rd, and can have defenses out in time for any form of protoss preasure. Air play can be easily countered by the proper and strategic placement of spore crawlers and building of extra queens (which zerg have already started doing). And if the protoss decides to not go air and go a 6 gate or robo+ a number of gates, then the zerg can still have an big enough army in time to defend against it, and still retain a 1 base advantage.

The recent game of Check.Prime vs Tails from IGN qualifiers is a good example of zerg being able to take a fast 3rd and come out ahead of a protoss FE. As for late game, infestors are a big double risk problem. Not only can they fungal the entire protoss army, but they can neural colossis, and/or archons. Fungal does respectable DPS, but more critically it leaves the protoss open to brood lords and baneling drops, both of which can do massive damage.

Again, carriers and motherships won't help, they still take too long to build, cost too much, are too vulnerable to corrupters, and worst, are vulnerable to neurals.

The only conclusion I can draw is that, protoss doesn't have anything to innovate upon, they are already using all their tools, and now that terran and zerg have started to fully use their tools the cracks are starting to show. I really wish I was wrong here but, it trully feels like it will take either a very big patch (1.4 won't cut it), or the expansion to fix the current protoss problems.

And while all this situation might really suck and demoralize a lot of players, lets have faith and remember that SC2 is only 1 year old, hopefully we will be looking back at this period in time and remember it was the darkness before the dusk, the calm before the storm. Change will come, even if Blizzard has to act.

On September 20 2011 15:02 MrProb wrote:


Are u idra in disguise ?

He said combat ex is terrible, yet, he uses him as a referrence/example like what combat ex does would work nicely in high lv tournament.

On September 20 2011 21:46 AnalThermometer wrote:
The "use more warp prisms" thing really is the new nydus worm. Anyways, just watching Terrans use some Ravens makes me ask why they have auto-turrets when the race clearly doesn't need them. A Protoss version of auto-turrets would be great as an ability for warp prisms in the expansion. You could drop them in a mineral line without worrying about diminishing your already small army early on in the game and they last ages, forcing your opponent to split their army at least a little bit.

On September 20 2011 18:35 Red Alert wrote:


ctrl+F "warp gates", nothing. You are omitting the most important part of this discussion. Your units are cost ineffective against terran because warp gate production is so much better than barracks production - on site warp in + unit first, cooldown later means that you are around 2 production cycles ahead of the terran at any given engagement point.

And don't give me anything about reactors...1 reactor barracks = 200/50, pumps out 100 minerals of units at almost the same rate as your 150/0 warp gate and they have to walk.

Also, don't get me wrong here - I am not saying the matchup is balanced or imbalanced in favor of protoss or whatever, just that warp gates need to be changed if protoss t1 is to receive any buffs.