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On September 17 2011 00:33 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 00:10 QTIP. wrote:On September 16 2011 23:56 Budmandude wrote:On September 16 2011 22:58 imbecile wrote: ZvP: I scout exactly what he is doing, I'm ahead in economy, I make the counter, and I lose badly anyway. Yesterday I have lost a game against 2base tier2 protoss while being on 5 bases hive tech having double his worker and army supply with 15 infestors and he still walks right through my whole army and static defenses and kills main and natural and all tech before I can remax. I would kill to see this replay! Me too, The Zerg has to fuck up insanely bad to lose in this situation! That's an understatement. It'd be hard to lose even if you went and had lunch for 15 minutes. You could probably disconnect and still get credited for the win.
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This change doesn't nerf the infestor, nor does it really change the way infestors should be played, but rather it raises the skill cap on the infestor, forcing people to be more careful with them because they're made out of paper.
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On September 17 2011 00:41 mbr2321 wrote: This change doesn't nerf the infestor, nor does it really change the way infestors should be played, but rather it raises the skill cap on the infestor, forcing people to be more careful with them because they're made out of paper.
"Raising the skill cap" is just another euphemism for "the unit is worse". It's the same with: "the unit has a lot of development potential" meaning it's actually retarded.
Also: Is forcing people to be more careful with infestors not a change to the way infestors are played?
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On September 17 2011 00:08 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 23:41 imbecile wrote:On September 16 2011 23:32 Philip2110 wrote:On September 16 2011 22:58 imbecile wrote:
ZvP: I scout exactly what he is doing, I'm ahead in economy, I make the counter, and I lose badly anyway. Yesterday I have lost a game against 2base tier2 protoss while being on 5 bases hive tech having double his worker and army supply with 15 infestors and he still walks right through my whole army and static defenses and kills main and natural and all tech before I can remax. Something wrong with how you play if that is happening. Not the game Probably. I don't have the best infestor control. Point is, you never ever have anything like this happening with T or P. I mean, I even took out his 2 colossi before they could do much, and it didn't matter. Simple gateway army + 2-3 Immortals and Archons just steamrolled everything I had with a-move. Lol oh its you. Didn't you get banned from the strat forum for your huge insult thread against Protoss players? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=264065
Was worth it
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To be honest I think it is part of a brilliant scheme. Zerg users will whine and whine and Blizzard will say ok we got what you need. You need Kerrigan, you need...... Heart of the Swarm!!!!!! Only 49.99 at your local electronics store, reserve your copy!!!!!
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Im a gm zerg player. Im quite glad they nerfed neural parasite to 7 range. If they nerfed it to 8 range, i might actually have to consider if i should build infestors and research NP in certain situations. But 7 range just makes it so i write infestors completely out of my gameplay.
I always try to adapt and be as unbiased as I can but i think thors might become a tad too strong after this patch.
Im already using the race with the least units, and in the games i play, i dun use hydras and ultralisks. Now infestors too? 0.0
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On September 17 2011 00:53 fierywinds wrote: Im a gm zerg player. Im quite glad they nerfed neural parasite to 7 range. If they nerfed it to 8 range, i might actually have to consider if i should build infestors and research NP in certain situations. But 7 range just makes it so i write infestors completely out of my gameplay.
I always try to adapt and be as unbiased as I can but i think thors might become a tad too strong after this patch.
Im already using the race with the least units, and in the games i play, i dun use hydras and ultralisks. Now infestors too? 0.0 Does not compute.
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This change doesn't nerf the infestor, nor does it really change the way infestors should be played, but rather it raises the skill cap on the infestor, forcing people to be more careful with them because they're made out of paper.
How about we make storm melee range to raise the skill cap on high templars? =.=
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On September 17 2011 00:33 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 00:10 QTIP. wrote:On September 16 2011 23:56 Budmandude wrote:On September 16 2011 22:58 imbecile wrote: ZvP: I scout exactly what he is doing, I'm ahead in economy, I make the counter, and I lose badly anyway. Yesterday I have lost a game against 2base tier2 protoss while being on 5 bases hive tech having double his worker and army supply with 15 infestors and he still walks right through my whole army and static defenses and kills main and natural and all tech before I can remax. I would kill to see this replay! Me too, The Zerg has to fuck up insanely bad to lose in this situation! That's an understatement. It'd be hard to lose even if you went and had lunch for 15 minutes.
Well, I haven't lost a ZvZ in 3 days, and the only TvT I lost in the last few days was because I forgot my 1st overlord or lost all my infetsors for free something like that.
I can't remember when I last won against P.
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On September 17 2011 00:35 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 00:33 The KY wrote:On September 17 2011 00:10 QTIP. wrote:On September 16 2011 23:56 Budmandude wrote:On September 16 2011 22:58 imbecile wrote: ZvP: I scout exactly what he is doing, I'm ahead in economy, I make the counter, and I lose badly anyway. Yesterday I have lost a game against 2base tier2 protoss while being on 5 bases hive tech having double his worker and army supply with 15 infestors and he still walks right through my whole army and static defenses and kills main and natural and all tech before I can remax. I would kill to see this replay! Me too, The Zerg has to fuck up insanely bad to lose in this situation! That's an understatement. It'd be hard to lose even if you went and had lunch for 15 minutes. You could probably disconnect and still get credited for the win. haha that was hilarious, talk about exaggeration to further his cause.
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On September 17 2011 00:56 imbecile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 00:33 The KY wrote:On September 17 2011 00:10 QTIP. wrote:On September 16 2011 23:56 Budmandude wrote:On September 16 2011 22:58 imbecile wrote: ZvP: I scout exactly what he is doing, I'm ahead in economy, I make the counter, and I lose badly anyway. Yesterday I have lost a game against 2base tier2 protoss while being on 5 bases hive tech having double his worker and army supply with 15 infestors and he still walks right through my whole army and static defenses and kills main and natural and all tech before I can remax. I would kill to see this replay! Me too, The Zerg has to fuck up insanely bad to lose in this situation! That's an understatement. It'd be hard to lose even if you went and had lunch for 15 minutes. Well, I haven't lost a ZvZ in 3 days, and the only TvT I lost in the last few days was because I forgot my 1st overlord or lost all my infetsors for free something like that. I can't remember when I last won against P.
So you're really bad at ZvP? What a revelation.
Still waiting on that replay.
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On September 17 2011 00:53 imbecile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 00:08 QTIP. wrote:On September 16 2011 23:41 imbecile wrote:On September 16 2011 23:32 Philip2110 wrote:On September 16 2011 22:58 imbecile wrote:
ZvP: I scout exactly what he is doing, I'm ahead in economy, I make the counter, and I lose badly anyway. Yesterday I have lost a game against 2base tier2 protoss while being on 5 bases hive tech having double his worker and army supply with 15 infestors and he still walks right through my whole army and static defenses and kills main and natural and all tech before I can remax. Something wrong with how you play if that is happening. Not the game Probably. I don't have the best infestor control. Point is, you never ever have anything like this happening with T or P. I mean, I even took out his 2 colossi before they could do much, and it didn't matter. Simple gateway army + 2-3 Immortals and Archons just steamrolled everything I had with a-move. Lol oh its you. Didn't you get banned from the strat forum for your huge insult thread against Protoss players? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=264065 Was worth it 
Lol -- glad to hear that it worked out for you.
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On September 17 2011 00:18 WinteRR wrote: why are the zerg players still not happy about this?.
Probably because zerg shouldn't have been getting touched in the first place. PvT and PvZ match ups were suffering. What's the common factor in all of this? Zerg obviously! Nerf infestors into oblivion.
Protoss needed buffs. And they got them. A few significant buffs with +1 immortal range (we all know what +1 range does to units. Roaches and archons are now pretty standard in all match ups), and a massive +60 effective hp on warp prisms.
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On September 17 2011 00:18 WinteRR wrote: why are the zerg players still not happy about this?
a totally bad change (no NP on massive units) has been revoked and instead a far weaker nerf has replaced it which won't completely change its application too much anyway. I guess people will always find a way to vent their frustration.
Because the change is unwarranted?
NP is by far the weakest spell on the infestor and prior to these ptr changes being brought up, people hardly complained about it. Infestors are made of wet paper, cannot move while using it, have to research it, AND it only lasts 15 seconds. Furthermore, the prime targets for neural (colossi and thors) requires you to get into a reasonable position to be sniped.
Protoss has their range 9 feedback, blink stalkers with range 6, colossi pretty far back, some are even using phoenix to lift them up.
Terran will have siege tanks and maybe even ghosts if the game goes on long enough.
If the infestor is to be nerfed more intelligent changes would be one of the following:
1) Removing the snare effect on fungal and replacing it with a movement speed reduction. Even as a zerg I feel this ability is bad for the game, because once it lands there is little the player can do aside from just taking as many fungals as I wish to dish out. This should be priority number one.
2) Remove the ability to neural massive AIR units. Or at least, I don't think you should be able to steal a mothership, and maybe if carriers and battlecruisers were used against zerg the corruptor would have a purpose again besides being turned into a much better unit.
3) Hell I'd probably be more content if they returned fungal to its state prior to the patch and buffed neural in exchange. Fungal and infested terrans have always been good.
I feel like people are so desperate to have the infestor nerfed they'll take anything they can get without even considering what might be best for the game.
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On September 17 2011 00:57 sekritzzz wrote: haha that was hilarious, talk about exaggeration to further his cause.
Ok, actually watched the replay now (was too painful). It was exaggerated, sure, because that's how it felt to me in the game.
The actual stats right before the game ending battle at my natural:
56 workers vs 43 4 base vs 2 base. Greater Spire Morphing vs. robo tech + gateway 2:1 upgrades vs 1:1 upgrades 106 army supply vs 74 army supply 11 infestors and 7 corruptors + lings + 2 spines 4 queens vs 2 colossus and pure stalker + zealots
20 seconds later my army consisted of 3 corruptors and he still had everything except the 2 colossus handily destroying my main and natural.
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On September 17 2011 01:10 Feidspar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 00:18 WinteRR wrote: why are the zerg players still not happy about this?. Probably because zerg shouldn't have been getting touched in the first place. PvT and PvZ match ups were suffering. What's the common factor in all of this? Zerg obviously! Nerf infestors into oblivion. Protoss needed buffs. And they got them. A few significant buffs with +1 immortal range (we all know what +1 range does to units. Roaches and archons are now pretty standard in all match ups), and a massive +60 effective hp on warp prisms.
I'm interested to see what +1 range does to Immortals. I honestly don't think it'll really do anything since they'll still be stuck unable to fire behind Stalkers as Stalkers have the same range but move faster.
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This unit causes so many problems for blizzard...
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On September 17 2011 01:24 imbecile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 00:57 sekritzzz wrote: haha that was hilarious, talk about exaggeration to further his cause. Ok, actually watched the replay now (was too painful). It was exaggerated, sure, because that's how it felt to me in the game. The actual stats right before the game ending battle at my natural: 56 workers vs 43 4 base vs 2 base. Greater Spire Morphing vs. robo tech + gateway 2:1 upgrades vs 1:1 upgrades 106 army supply vs 74 army supply 11 infestors and 7 corruptors + lings + 2 spines 4 queens vs 2 colossus and pure stalker + zealots 20 seconds later my army consisted of 3 corruptors and he still had everything except the 2 colossus handily destroying my main and natural.
You original post:
"ZvP: I scout exactly what he is doing, I'm ahead in economy, I make the counter, and I lose badly anyway. Yesterday I have lost a game against 2base tier2 protoss while being on 5 bases hive tech having double his worker and army supply with 15 infestors and he still walks right through my whole army and static defenses and kills main and natural and all tech before I can remax."
Yeah. Just submit the replay so we can try to help you out.
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On September 17 2011 01:24 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 01:10 Feidspar wrote:On September 17 2011 00:18 WinteRR wrote: why are the zerg players still not happy about this?. Probably because zerg shouldn't have been getting touched in the first place. PvT and PvZ match ups were suffering. What's the common factor in all of this? Zerg obviously! Nerf infestors into oblivion. Protoss needed buffs. And they got them. A few significant buffs with +1 immortal range (we all know what +1 range does to units. Roaches and archons are now pretty standard in all match ups), and a massive +60 effective hp on warp prisms. I'm interested to see what +1 range does to Immortals. I honestly don't think it'll really do anything since they'll still be stuck unable to fire behind Stalkers as Stalkers have the same range but move faster.
I think the range buff is a nudge from Blizzard, trying to encourage Protoss to explore more Immortal builds. Right now, they dominate early game, suck mid game, and are only good late game if you are making like 3-5 at a time.
Some new builds should pop up - no doubt about that.
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On September 17 2011 01:19 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 00:18 WinteRR wrote: why are the zerg players still not happy about this?
a totally bad change (no NP on massive units) has been revoked and instead a far weaker nerf has replaced it which won't completely change its application too much anyway. I guess people will always find a way to vent their frustration. Because the change is unwarranted? NP is by far the weakest spell on the infestor and prior to these ptr changes being brought up, people hardly complained about it. Infestors are made of wet paper, cannot move while using it, have to research it, AND it only lasts 15 seconds. Furthermore, the prime targets for neural (colossi and thors) requires you to get into a reasonable position to be sniped. Protoss has their range 9 feedback, blink stalkers with range 6, colossi pretty far back, some are even using phoenix to lift them up. Terran will have siege tanks and maybe even ghosts if the game goes on long enough. If the infestor is to be nerfed more intelligent changes would be one of the following: 1) Removing the snare effect on fungal and replacing it with a movement speed reduction. Even as a zerg I feel this ability is bad for the game, because once it lands there is little the player can do aside from just taking as many fungals as I wish to dish out. This should be priority number one. 2) Remove the ability to neural massive AIR units. Or at least, I don't think you should be able to steal a mothership, and maybe if carriers and battlecruisers were used against zerg the corruptor would have a purpose again besides being turned into a much better unit. 3) Hell I'd probably be more content if they returned fungal to its state prior to the patch and buffed neural in exchange. Fungal and infested terrans have always been good. I feel like people are so desperate to have the infestor nerfed they'll take anything they can get without even considering what might be best for the game.
I'm so glad to see other people saying this.
As far as I'm aware there really were no complaints about Neural from anybody before this patch. But since we heard Blizzard were going to nerf it, alot of people arbitrarily felt the need to defend the decision and have thus decided that NP is losing them every game vs Zerg and is causing every tournament to be Zerg dominated.
Realistically I think that, taking into account unit ranges, delay on the spell, fragility and high target priority of Infestors, a Zerg has to outmaneuver his opponent to pull off Neurals. The infallbile counter to it is to micro better. That's it.
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