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Neural Parasite was also Zerg's only anti-caster spell. Zerg doesn't have anything like EMP or Feedback, but could mind control one of the Ghosts or Templar and use it against themselves. Now both EMP and Feedback severely outrange Neural Parasite, meaning that it can not be cast in the first place.
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On September 16 2011 07:26 Demonhunter04 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 07:23 Steel wrote:
I'm Zerg and I understand the NP change to fix infestors in ZvP but I have no idea how I'm going to deal with mech in the late game.
I don't think that even if I remax 3 times with whatever units you want I could kill tank thor viking without being able to neural half the thors. It was already pretty hard with range 9 to not instantly die. A mix of Zerglings, Ultralisks, and Brood Lords? That might work. Add some corruptors for the vikings or just skip the brood lords and get moar ultras.
Zerglings scale really badly compared to marines. Ultras take a lot of time to morph (the change should help) but so do broodlords. Unless you have a lot of infestors, marine tank is actually quite strong against ling/ultra, when foods are maxed. It's very hard to get many fungals off considering how fragile they are, and how they are the auto-target priority of tanks.
People don't seem to realize how heavily the Zerg race relies on the infestor past the midgame (in ZvT) and past the early game (in ZvZ and ZvP).
It's not a balance whine, but I do believe this is a design flaw. No end game composition is viable as Zerg without the infestor. Terran have two casters and don't need either to win in the endgame. Protoss need them to neutralize infestors, and zerg has nothing to neutralize the HT, so you pretty much have to win before they are maxed with HTs, gateway units and some VRs.
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On September 17 2011 04:02 Steel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 07:26 Demonhunter04 wrote:On September 16 2011 07:23 Steel wrote:
I'm Zerg and I understand the NP change to fix infestors in ZvP but I have no idea how I'm going to deal with mech in the late game.
I don't think that even if I remax 3 times with whatever units you want I could kill tank thor viking without being able to neural half the thors. It was already pretty hard with range 9 to not instantly die. A mix of Zerglings, Ultralisks, and Brood Lords? That might work. Add some corruptors for the vikings or just skip the brood lords and get moar ultras. Zerglings scale really badly compared to marines. Ultras take a lot of time to morph (the change should help) but so do broodlords. Unless you have a lot of infestors, marine tank is actually quite strong against ling/ultra, when foods are maxed. It's very hard to get many fungals off considering how fragile they are, and how they are the auto-target priority of tanks. People don't seem to realize how heavily the Zerg race relies on the infestor past the midgame (in ZvT) and past the early game (in ZvZ and ZvP). It's not a balance whine, but I do believe this is a design flaw. No end game composition is viable as Zerg without the infestor. Terran have two casters and don't need either to win in the endgame. Protoss need them to neutralize infestors, and zerg has nothing to neutralize the HT, so you pretty much have to win before they are maxed with HTs, gateway units and some VRs.
Well, just going to put it out there that the named composition for toss (HT, gateway, VR) should do pretty badly against ultras with corruptor or muta support. And if he transitions away from voids, you can just make BL's! :D
But yes, as of this time, zergs rely heavily on the infestor to bring them through the midgame, to the late game. Hopefully there'll be another solution within the race without the infestor being such a powerful unit.
And besides, all races require a certain unit in any given build. It just so happens that zergs current requirement is the infestor, and they're used in ALL current builds at the moment. Maybe zergs aren't exploring enough builds, since they're so used to relying on the infestor :O
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On September 17 2011 04:02 Steel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 07:26 Demonhunter04 wrote:On September 16 2011 07:23 Steel wrote:
I'm Zerg and I understand the NP change to fix infestors in ZvP but I have no idea how I'm going to deal with mech in the late game.
I don't think that even if I remax 3 times with whatever units you want I could kill tank thor viking without being able to neural half the thors. It was already pretty hard with range 9 to not instantly die. A mix of Zerglings, Ultralisks, and Brood Lords? That might work. Add some corruptors for the vikings or just skip the brood lords and get moar ultras. Zerglings scale really badly compared to marines. Ultras take a lot of time to morph (the change should help) but so do broodlords. Unless you have a lot of infestors, marine tank is actually quite strong against ling/ultra, when foods are maxed. It's very hard to get many fungals off considering how fragile they are, and how they are the auto-target priority of tanks. People don't seem to realize how heavily the Zerg race relies on the infestor past the midgame (in ZvT) and past the early game (in ZvZ and ZvP). It's not a balance whine, but I do believe this is a design flaw. No end game composition is viable as Zerg without the infestor. Terran have two casters and don't need either to win in the endgame. Protoss need them to neutralize infestors, and zerg has nothing to neutralize the HT, so you pretty much have to win before they are maxed with HTs, gateway units and some VRs.
Zergling damage scaling is actually the highest in the game, gaining a 20% damage increase with +1 compared to the +16.66% of Marines. It's actually even better when they're attacking Siege Tanks since Siege Tanks cut Zergling damage down to 4 with their base armour, effectively giving +1 Zerglings a 25% damage boost.
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On September 17 2011 04:15 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 04:02 Steel wrote:On September 16 2011 07:26 Demonhunter04 wrote:On September 16 2011 07:23 Steel wrote:
I'm Zerg and I understand the NP change to fix infestors in ZvP but I have no idea how I'm going to deal with mech in the late game.
I don't think that even if I remax 3 times with whatever units you want I could kill tank thor viking without being able to neural half the thors. It was already pretty hard with range 9 to not instantly die. A mix of Zerglings, Ultralisks, and Brood Lords? That might work. Add some corruptors for the vikings or just skip the brood lords and get moar ultras. Zerglings scale really badly compared to marines. Ultras take a lot of time to morph (the change should help) but so do broodlords. Unless you have a lot of infestors, marine tank is actually quite strong against ling/ultra, when foods are maxed. It's very hard to get many fungals off considering how fragile they are, and how they are the auto-target priority of tanks. People don't seem to realize how heavily the Zerg race relies on the infestor past the midgame (in ZvT) and past the early game (in ZvZ and ZvP). It's not a balance whine, but I do believe this is a design flaw. No end game composition is viable as Zerg without the infestor. Terran have two casters and don't need either to win in the endgame. Protoss need them to neutralize infestors, and zerg has nothing to neutralize the HT, so you pretty much have to win before they are maxed with HTs, gateway units and some VRs. Zergling damage scaling is actually the highest in the game, gaining a 20% damage increase with +1 compared to the +16.66% of Marines. It's actually even better when they're attacking Siege Tanks since Siege Tanks cut Zergling damage down to 4 with their base armour, effectively giving +1 Zerglings a 25% damage boost.
They scale better with upgrades, yes. But they scale worse with numbers, like all melee units vs ranged units.
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There have been problems with this spell since the beginning, it's been nerfed to useless and buffed to too good many times.
Just fucking realize your mistake already Blizzard and replace it with something else.
Even when the spell is used it's not interesting at all, just like the root effect on fungal growth, terribly boring.
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On September 17 2011 03:54 JStorm wrote:
Neural Parasite was also Zerg's only anti-caster spell. Zerg doesn't have anything like EMP or Feedback, but could mind control one of the Ghosts or Templar and use it against themselves. Now both EMP and Feedback severely outrange Neural Parasite, meaning that it can not be cast in the first place.
Not really, FG is good against any caster, reveals cloaked units too for your army to kill. You are 9/10 going to have more infestors than the enemy has HT or Ghosts too. You also don't have to engage with fungal, in fact in most confrontations mid game when I (Protoss) encounter infestors engagement is totally at the Zergs discretion and P can barely leave his base when Ifestors are out, even with drops.
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Now both EMP and Feedback severely outrange Neural Parasite, meaning that it can not be cast in the first place.
Well EMP outranges feedback by 3, so I don't see the problem with feedback vs. NP, however NP vs. EMP is more of a cliff battle than an uphill one...
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On September 17 2011 04:53 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 03:54 JStorm wrote:
Neural Parasite was also Zerg's only anti-caster spell. Zerg doesn't have anything like EMP or Feedback, but could mind control one of the Ghosts or Templar and use it against themselves. Now both EMP and Feedback severely outrange Neural Parasite, meaning that it can not be cast in the first place. Not really, FG is good against any caster, reveals cloaked units too for your army to kill. You are 9/10 going to have more infestors than the enemy has HT or Ghosts too. You also don't have to engage with fungal, in fact in most confrontations mid game when I (Protoss) encounter infestors engagement is totally at the Zergs discretion and P can barely leave his base when Ifestors are out, even with drops.
/agree
also, have you seen the pushes zerg do with infested terrans? ridiculously strong. then they just pull back and let their energy recover.
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On September 17 2011 02:57 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 02:44 R0YAL wrote:On September 16 2011 12:37 -_- wrote:On September 16 2011 11:21 coL.CatZ wrote:
this change is just as bad unfortunately. Its like saying, since most people can't micro or target fire, we'll make it easy for them and ridiculously easy for actual good players Blizzard has stated in the past that they do take into account non-professional players when balancing the game, but aren't you in favor of this policy? If not, what do you think about the players in Korea who smile sardonically at the difficulties a North American Grandmasters Zerg player has? Infestor heavy play is not in vogue in Korea. Perhaps Korean Protoss players are so skilled, they can perfectly target down the Infestor who is siphoning the Colossus, making the prospective neural parasite change moot. In Korea, Neural Parasite in Starcraft 2 could be the equivalent of Medic's Restore in Starcraft Broodwar. If this is the case, are you in favor of a spell being imbalanced when players can't exercise enough control, and unusable when they can? Or maybe you're just not skilled enough to comment on the balance of Starcraft 2, and thus don't understand why the change was necessary. Whenever North American players deride the balance opinions of less skilled players, I'm compelled to wonder how they ignore the cognitive dissonance which must occur when they consider where they rank on the Great Cross-Realm Starcraft 2 Ladder which exists only in our hopeful minds. I'm not saying you shouldn't discuss balance unless you're one of the top players in the world, or that you're one of the people I'm describing. In fact, I greatly enjoyed reading the quoted post by you, even thought it was rather short. But I do think you should be careful when you imply that Neural Parasite is perfectly balanced if Protoss players would simply learn how to control their units. Korean Zergs control their units more precisely and hit their queen injects more regularly than you. Maybe Zerg against Protoss would be a simple matchup for Zerg if you could simply do the same? The moment Blizzard announced that their goal was to balance the game at all levels of play, I knew that if anything this would be the downfall of SC2. Even if they managed to balance the game at lower-high levels it is beyond foolish to think that at the highest level of play (which we wont see for years to come) will be balanced. It doesnt even make sense to "balance low level" of play. The game should be balanced at the highest level and then if you have a weakness in a certain area then you work on that and thats how you get to the next level. Thats how bw was and nobody complained about because its not the games fault ITS YOUR FAULT, there was always at least one way to deal with something so your only excuse is that you are incompetant. The highest level of play is all that matters and is the only thing that will make SC2 a true success Yes, it is unfortunate but Blizzard is in also in the business of keeping their entire consumer base happy, not just the 0.1% that are progamers.
The system is set up to where you play people at your own skill level so nothing would even change for the low level players, or anyone for that matter.. All that would happen is the game is actually balanced. And its not like Blizzard would lose money, they only make money when people initially buy the game. It doesn't even make sense to balance a game based on terrible play.
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Russian Federation798 Posts
On September 17 2011 06:30 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 02:57 QTIP. wrote:On September 17 2011 02:44 R0YAL wrote:On September 16 2011 12:37 -_- wrote:On September 16 2011 11:21 coL.CatZ wrote:
this change is just as bad unfortunately. Its like saying, since most people can't micro or target fire, we'll make it easy for them and ridiculously easy for actual good players Blizzard has stated in the past that they do take into account non-professional players when balancing the game, but aren't you in favor of this policy? If not, what do you think about the players in Korea who smile sardonically at the difficulties a North American Grandmasters Zerg player has? Infestor heavy play is not in vogue in Korea. Perhaps Korean Protoss players are so skilled, they can perfectly target down the Infestor who is siphoning the Colossus, making the prospective neural parasite change moot. In Korea, Neural Parasite in Starcraft 2 could be the equivalent of Medic's Restore in Starcraft Broodwar. If this is the case, are you in favor of a spell being imbalanced when players can't exercise enough control, and unusable when they can? Or maybe you're just not skilled enough to comment on the balance of Starcraft 2, and thus don't understand why the change was necessary. Whenever North American players deride the balance opinions of less skilled players, I'm compelled to wonder how they ignore the cognitive dissonance which must occur when they consider where they rank on the Great Cross-Realm Starcraft 2 Ladder which exists only in our hopeful minds. I'm not saying you shouldn't discuss balance unless you're one of the top players in the world, or that you're one of the people I'm describing. In fact, I greatly enjoyed reading the quoted post by you, even thought it was rather short. But I do think you should be careful when you imply that Neural Parasite is perfectly balanced if Protoss players would simply learn how to control their units. Korean Zergs control their units more precisely and hit their queen injects more regularly than you. Maybe Zerg against Protoss would be a simple matchup for Zerg if you could simply do the same? The moment Blizzard announced that their goal was to balance the game at all levels of play, I knew that if anything this would be the downfall of SC2. Even if they managed to balance the game at lower-high levels it is beyond foolish to think that at the highest level of play (which we wont see for years to come) will be balanced. It doesnt even make sense to "balance low level" of play. The game should be balanced at the highest level and then if you have a weakness in a certain area then you work on that and thats how you get to the next level. Thats how bw was and nobody complained about because its not the games fault ITS YOUR FAULT, there was always at least one way to deal with something so your only excuse is that you are incompetant. The highest level of play is all that matters and is the only thing that will make SC2 a true success Yes, it is unfortunate but Blizzard is in also in the business of keeping their entire consumer base happy, not just the 0.1% that are progamers. The system is set up to where you play people at your own skill level so nothing would even change for the low level players, or anyone for that matter.. All that would happen is the game is actually balanced. And its not like Blizzard would lose money, they only make money when people initially buy the game. It doesn't even make sense to balance a game based on terrible play.
There is 2 more expansions comming. If I am casual and I dont like the game now, I am definietly not going to buy the next two expansions.
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On September 17 2011 06:41 fishinguy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 06:30 R0YAL wrote:On September 17 2011 02:57 QTIP. wrote:On September 17 2011 02:44 R0YAL wrote:On September 16 2011 12:37 -_- wrote:On September 16 2011 11:21 coL.CatZ wrote:
this change is just as bad unfortunately. Its like saying, since most people can't micro or target fire, we'll make it easy for them and ridiculously easy for actual good players Blizzard has stated in the past that they do take into account non-professional players when balancing the game, but aren't you in favor of this policy? If not, what do you think about the players in Korea who smile sardonically at the difficulties a North American Grandmasters Zerg player has? Infestor heavy play is not in vogue in Korea. Perhaps Korean Protoss players are so skilled, they can perfectly target down the Infestor who is siphoning the Colossus, making the prospective neural parasite change moot. In Korea, Neural Parasite in Starcraft 2 could be the equivalent of Medic's Restore in Starcraft Broodwar. If this is the case, are you in favor of a spell being imbalanced when players can't exercise enough control, and unusable when they can? Or maybe you're just not skilled enough to comment on the balance of Starcraft 2, and thus don't understand why the change was necessary. Whenever North American players deride the balance opinions of less skilled players, I'm compelled to wonder how they ignore the cognitive dissonance which must occur when they consider where they rank on the Great Cross-Realm Starcraft 2 Ladder which exists only in our hopeful minds. I'm not saying you shouldn't discuss balance unless you're one of the top players in the world, or that you're one of the people I'm describing. In fact, I greatly enjoyed reading the quoted post by you, even thought it was rather short. But I do think you should be careful when you imply that Neural Parasite is perfectly balanced if Protoss players would simply learn how to control their units. Korean Zergs control their units more precisely and hit their queen injects more regularly than you. Maybe Zerg against Protoss would be a simple matchup for Zerg if you could simply do the same? The moment Blizzard announced that their goal was to balance the game at all levels of play, I knew that if anything this would be the downfall of SC2. Even if they managed to balance the game at lower-high levels it is beyond foolish to think that at the highest level of play (which we wont see for years to come) will be balanced. It doesnt even make sense to "balance low level" of play. The game should be balanced at the highest level and then if you have a weakness in a certain area then you work on that and thats how you get to the next level. Thats how bw was and nobody complained about because its not the games fault ITS YOUR FAULT, there was always at least one way to deal with something so your only excuse is that you are incompetant. The highest level of play is all that matters and is the only thing that will make SC2 a true success Yes, it is unfortunate but Blizzard is in also in the business of keeping their entire consumer base happy, not just the 0.1% that are progamers. The system is set up to where you play people at your own skill level so nothing would even change for the low level players, or anyone for that matter.. All that would happen is the game is actually balanced. And its not like Blizzard would lose money, they only make money when people initially buy the game. It doesn't even make sense to balance a game based on terrible play. There is 2 more expansions comming. If I am casual and I dont like the game now, I am definietly not going to buy the next two expansions.
Why would you not like the game?
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On September 17 2011 04:29 Nourek wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 04:15 branflakes14 wrote:On September 17 2011 04:02 Steel wrote:On September 16 2011 07:26 Demonhunter04 wrote:On September 16 2011 07:23 Steel wrote:
I'm Zerg and I understand the NP change to fix infestors in ZvP but I have no idea how I'm going to deal with mech in the late game.
I don't think that even if I remax 3 times with whatever units you want I could kill tank thor viking without being able to neural half the thors. It was already pretty hard with range 9 to not instantly die. A mix of Zerglings, Ultralisks, and Brood Lords? That might work. Add some corruptors for the vikings or just skip the brood lords and get moar ultras. Zerglings scale really badly compared to marines. Ultras take a lot of time to morph (the change should help) but so do broodlords. Unless you have a lot of infestors, marine tank is actually quite strong against ling/ultra, when foods are maxed. It's very hard to get many fungals off considering how fragile they are, and how they are the auto-target priority of tanks. People don't seem to realize how heavily the Zerg race relies on the infestor past the midgame (in ZvT) and past the early game (in ZvZ and ZvP). It's not a balance whine, but I do believe this is a design flaw. No end game composition is viable as Zerg without the infestor. Terran have two casters and don't need either to win in the endgame. Protoss need them to neutralize infestors, and zerg has nothing to neutralize the HT, so you pretty much have to win before they are maxed with HTs, gateway units and some VRs. Zergling damage scaling is actually the highest in the game, gaining a 20% damage increase with +1 compared to the +16.66% of Marines. It's actually even better when they're attacking Siege Tanks since Siege Tanks cut Zergling damage down to 4 with their base armour, effectively giving +1 Zerglings a 25% damage boost. They scale better with upgrades, yes. But they scale worse with numbers, like all melee units vs ranged units.
Yup. I don't get how hard it is for people to understand that surface area is ignored for ranged units, while melee units rely entirely on maximizing surface area of attack per unit.
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This solution is definitely more elegant than the inability to target massive units.
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I'll be curious to see if NP is worth researching at 7 range. Even at 9 range you have to be really careful with positioning to use it against siege tanks or colossi, but there are certain situations where it is extremely powerful.
I still don't understand what the problem with the original spell is though. It's powerful but can also be completely negated and punished with micro.
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Better, although still not great. At least Blizz listens when everybody hates a change they make
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why is this change being reverted but the equally wrongheaded approach to blink is going through? is it only when zerg has a problem that blizzard decides to take action? genuinely confused.
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I think it was fine not being able to target Massive. Zerg shouldn't have a spell that instantly takes 500 recourses in army power away from you imo. But im sure this will help.
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On September 17 2011 06:58 Treemonkeys wrote:
I'll be curious to see if NP is worth researching at 7 range. Even at 9 range you have to be really careful with positioning to use it against siege tanks or colossi, but there are certain situations where it is extremely powerful.
I still don't understand what the problem with the original spell is though. It's powerful but can also be completely negated and punished with micro.
I'm sure it'll still be worth researching, taking a colossus away from a SSC army is a pretty powerful tool on top of the capability to FG. An Infestor based unit comp can basically still approach engagements in 3 ways: the bait n trap with fungal, the burst damage with IT + ling bling, and the takeaway with NP and roaches (on immortals/colossi)
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On September 17 2011 07:36 Shiori wrote:
why is this change being reverted but the equally wrongheaded approach to blink is going through? is it only when zerg has a problem that blizzard decides to take action? genuinely confused.
blink change was more for PvP as I understand. The NP change is not being reverted per se, it is being changed to 7 range instead of non-massive targets only which are both instead of 9 range, targets massive as well.
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EPT
