Hey guys! I wanted to write about how we're doing things a bit differently for this season in terms of qualifying for Season 3, and the Open Tournament. I'm going to write it in bullet point for here, just because I don't wanna explain it in detail again!
If you're interested in reading the full details, read about it HERE!
* Changing from a strictly Open to a "Semi-Open" * Semi-Open will be a 32 man double elimination tournament. 1st place advance to NASL Season 2 Grand Final, Top 4 advance to Season 3. * 16 top players will be invited to the Semi-Open * 16 players will qualify from (2) Open Tournaments
* Open Tournaments open to ANYONE !
* All 3 tournaments will be played on new maps, thanks to The Planetary Workshop ! * We will be using this also to test these maps, and have community / pro feedback to incorporate new maps into NASL Season 3.
Open Tournament 1: Oct 1st -- Oct 2nd Open Tournament 2: Oct 8th -- Oct 9th
Entry fee of $10 to participate in the Open Tournaments.
On September 14 2011 04:58 Xeris wrote: Hey guys! I wanted to write about how we're doing things a bit differently for this season in terms of qualifying for Season 3, and the Open Tournament. I'm going to write it in bullet point for here, just because I don't wanna explain it in detail again!
If you're interested in reading the full details, read about it HERE!
* Changing from a strictly Open to a "Semi-Open" * Semi-Open will be a 32 man double elimination tournament. 1st place advance to NASL Season 2 Grand Final, Top 4 advance to Season 3. * 16 top players will be invited to the Semi-Open * 16 players will qualify from (2) Open Tournaments
* Open Tournaments open to ANYONE !
* All 3 tournaments will be played on new maps, thanks to The Planetary Workshop ! * We will be using this also to test these maps, and have community / pro feedback to incorporate new maps into NASL Season 3.
Open Tournament 1: Oct 1st -- Oct 2nd Open Tournament 2: Oct 8th -- Oct 9th
Entry fee of $10 to participate in the Open Tournaments.
I'm not sure NASL should be pushing new and relatively untested maps, the debacle at the start of S1 was embarrassing enough. Though if you get rid of notorious 1/1/1 maps, I'm in.
Will the player who qualifies for the grand finals via this "semi-open" still be seeded 16th? As we all know there was a lot of debate about that last season.
On September 14 2011 05:03 cheesemaster wrote: That kinda sucks, it was far more interesting when a relatively unknown person has a chance to qualify from the open tournament.
I know exactly why you guys are doing this though (and its kind of childish) its to stick it to the koreans because they declined to participate in the regular season and you dont want one of them just just tear up the open tournament and win the whole thing.
They can still do that. Nothing is stopping them.
nvm i misunderstood the format
if you could edit your post to get rid of my quote it would be much appreciated, it is rather emberrassing and i apologize to NASL, i understand the format now and i think its a great format. Just woke up derppp
Am I the only one who finds the entirely new maps a bit.. questionable? Some players might acquire free wins if they are able to find a map exploit first.
On September 14 2011 05:04 CptGrackSparrow wrote: Will the player who qualifies for the grand finals via this "semi-open" still be seeded 16th? As we all know there was a lot of debate about that last season.
We're going to be working around that. Probably make them the 11th seed instead. I believe that was the general consensus -- kinda putting them in the middle of the pack.
On September 14 2011 05:07 cheesemaster wrote: if you could edit your post to get rid of my quote it would be much appreciated, it is rather emberrassing and i apologize to NASL, i understand the format now and i think its a great format. Just woke up derppp
You might want to edit it our of your post as well. Full-on derpmode this morning?
On September 14 2011 05:11 NeoSlicerZ wrote: Have these new maps been tested at all before use? Have TPW posted their maps up on TL for analysis?
3 of their maps that we will be using have won "map of the month" competitions. They are a very good and trustworthy source for new maps and we endorse the maps they make. Part of the point of using these maps in these 3 tournaments is to be a sort of testing ground. We hope to get a nice sample size of data from them from the 3 tournaments, and of course, The Planetary Workshop would make sure that any huge exploits are fixed, etc
On September 14 2011 04:58 Xeris wrote: Hey guys! I wanted to write about how we're doing things a bit differently for this season in terms of qualifying for Season 3, and the Open Tournament. I'm going to write it in bullet point for here, just because I don't wanna explain it in detail again!
If you're interested in reading the full details, read about it HERE!
* Changing from a strictly Open to a "Semi-Open" * Semi-Open will be a 32 man double elimination tournament. 1st place advance to NASL Season 2 Grand Final, Top 4 advance to Season 3. * 16 top players will be invited to the Semi-Open * 16 players will qualify from (2) Open Tournaments
* Open Tournaments open to ANYONE !
* All 3 tournaments will be played on new maps, thanks to The Planetary Workshop ! * We will be using this also to test these maps, and have community / pro feedback to incorporate new maps into NASL Season 3.
Open Tournament 1: Oct 1st -- Oct 2nd Open Tournament 2: Oct 8th -- Oct 9th
Entry fee of $10 to participate in the Open Tournaments.
On September 14 2011 05:12 Vapaach wrote: Am I the only one who finds the entirely new maps a bit.. questionable? Some players might acquire free wins if they are able to find a map exploit first.
I hate it as well.
I would think a map pool that involves a few new maps and than traditional maps would be the most appropriate. You get to test out new maps without making everyone learn an entirely new set of maps.
On September 14 2011 05:11 NeoSlicerZ wrote: Have these new maps been tested at all before use? Have TPW posted their maps up on TL for analysis?
3 of their maps that we will be using have won "map of the month" competitions. They are a very good and trustworthy source for new maps and we endorse the maps they make. Part of the point of using these maps in these 3 tournaments is to be a sort of testing ground. We hope to get a nice sample size of data from them from the 3 tournaments, and of course, The Planetary Workshop would make sure that any huge exploits are fixed, etc
That sounds great actually. A lot of maps don't get much press but are actually still very good maps. (Blizzard, please hire some new mapmakers)
On September 14 2011 05:04 CptGrackSparrow wrote: Will the player who qualifies for the grand finals via this "semi-open" still be seeded 16th? As we all know there was a lot of debate about that last season.
We're going to be working around that. Probably make them the 11th seed instead. I believe that was the general consensus -- kinda putting them in the middle of the pack.
Good to hear this. Ret got kinda screwed last time going against Puma in round 1 while being seed nr.1 and there were even people throwing games to avoid seed 1. This should make things a bit more reasonable .
New maps should never be in a qualifier. Especially for something as big as NASL the semi open part is also outrageous but these days flippin tables doesnt change anything... =/
On September 14 2011 05:19 desrow wrote: New maps should never be in a qualifier. Especially for something as big as NASL the semi open part is also outrageous but these days flippin tables doesnt change anything... =/
I can never make you happy T__________________________________________T!
You might want to: 1) fix the link to your own website 2) add a link to your partner 3) spell the name of your partner right in your statement on the website.
At least we can be sure it's definitely an NASL announcement though.
On September 14 2011 05:19 desrow wrote: New maps should never be in a qualifier. Especially for something as big as NASL the semi open part is also outrageous but these days flippin tables doesnt change anything... =/
I can never make you happy T__________________________________________T!
Don't worry, no one can ever make DesRow happy. T_T
On September 14 2011 05:19 desrow wrote: New maps should never be in a qualifier. Especially for something as big as NASL the semi open part is also outrageous but these days flippin tables doesnt change anything... =/
I can never make you happy T__________________________________________T!
trust me the day u will I will let you know and maybe ship you a box of cookies ;D well at least its double elim 32 player :D
On September 14 2011 05:24 Lonyo wrote: You might want to: 1) fix the link to your own website 2) add a link to your partner 3) spell the name of your partner right in your statement on the website.
At least we can be sure it's definitely an NASL announcement though.
Thank you for pointing out human error, fixed my mistake
Hmm, not sure how I feel about this. Invite tourneys usually have more fan favorites but more open slots are always nice for new up and coming players to make a name for themselves.
Looking forward to seeing the new structure in action, same for the maps.
I think it may not be a bad idea to throw in at least 1 or 2 more played maps into the pool. Even in they aren't ladder/season 1 maps (nasl), I think having a map like dual sight or testbug would be beneficial for quality of games and making a bit easier on some of the players.
On September 14 2011 05:40 Joshy.IGN wrote: Just pointing out that the second open qualifier is the same weekend as IPL 3! Hope it doesn't affect either tournament too much. :o
Wouldnt something have to eventually be the weekend of something else since theres a big tournament going on every day of the year?
I really don't think using new maps for qualifiers is a good idea. Even in the GSL they introduce just one or two new maps for season, and they have all their players focusing exclusively on their league. How can you expect that players will train on more than 4 completely new maps for a qualifier in a foreign context where you're neither the only nor the biggest league?
Although the addition of new maps is questionable, I am really looking forward to this season. Hopefully we can see a foreigner taking the first place spot this time round.
On September 14 2011 05:40 Joshy.IGN wrote: Just pointing out that the second open qualifier is the same weekend as IPL 3! Hope it doesn't affect either tournament too much. :o
Wouldnt something have to eventually be the weekend of something else since theres a big tournament going on every day of the year?
The same weekend as IPL3: IeSF in Korea, IEM Guangzhou.
On September 14 2011 05:40 Joshy.IGN wrote: Just pointing out that the second open qualifier is the same weekend as IPL 3! Hope it doesn't affect either tournament too much. :o
Lol it won't affect IPL3 I am pretty sure about that...
That's progressive of you to use The Planetary Workshop. I'm sure this will lead to some groans seeing as they aren't maps that everyone practices on. But I see this as a creative risk on your part. I'm interested to see where this leads.
I also like the 11 seed idea for the winner of the semi-open.
tl'dr While you'll probably receive some criticism for trying out new maps, I have been impressed with NASL's desire to try out new formats and by your response to and incorporation of constructive criticism in general.
The consensus was it made more sense to randomly punish the #6 seed than the #1 seed, not that it was either the best or a legitimate solution. Which 2nd in their division players can afford to throw their games instead of the division leaders like last season; it should make for some real TV drama.
Inviting 1,2,3, MAYBE 4 players no problem since it should be the tip top players. Inviting HALF the freaking pack is complete nonsense. Let EVERYONE earn their way in. If you're good enough you'll qualify, if you aren't and get "unlucky" because of a hard draw too bad so sad, you weren't going to win anyways.
Just when I was looking forward to NASL 2 since they said they wouldn't invite anyone after Season 1 and people had to EARN their way in. Then the Korean Exodus occurred and you really couldn't blame them inviting people after that. Then when you think the invite nonsense is finally over, they just find another avenue to invite more people later on. Unbelievable...
You guys should really stop obsessing over getting Player X or Player Y to play in your league and focus on setting up an environment where the BEST players are begging to get in. You'd be better off.
oh the map of the month winners are always awesome to play on.(and probably better balanced then most tournament maps) (Also a lil bonus for people focusing on nasl x3 ) me likes . Interesting to see a few people hate new maps with passion, guess they miss steppes of war. I even liked season one for showing maps that were generally unused in tournaments, atleast after i noticed that people prepared for those map quiet well.
On September 14 2011 05:04 CptGrackSparrow wrote: Will the player who qualifies for the grand finals via this "semi-open" still be seeded 16th? As we all know there was a lot of debate about that last season.
We're going to be working around that. Probably make them the 11th seed instead. I believe that was the general consensus -- kinda putting them in the middle of the pack.
Good to hear this. Ret got kinda screwed last time going against Puma in round 1 while being seed nr.1 and there were even people throwing games to avoid seed 1. This should make things a bit more reasonable .
Yea poor Ret
I felt really bad for him when this happened. Glad things are getting better ^^
Winner of Open Qualifier is unseeded (tentatively)
Seed 1 can now choose to either play Seed 15 or Winner of Open If Seed 1 chooses to play Seed 15, Seed 2 can now choose to play either Seed 14 or Winner of Open.
etc. etc.
Once someone chooses to play Winner of Open (or the first seven seeds bypass) you just seed the rest according to rank. This way the top seeds get an option which is nice.
I'm not so happy about this map thing... It seems to me the map makers are trying too hard to make them "macro" maps. Look at Metalopolis and XNC...They're both good maps but they don't have bases everywhere like monsoon valley.
For clarity: I'd prefer more maps like Dual Sight to be used in tournaments, and macro maps like crevasse and terminus are okay in moderation, but so many of the maps are like crevasse that the gameplay may be similar to most of the maps.
I understand the worries of the players, but i am sure the new maps will receive mostly positive feedback. As it was pointed out some of these maps have already made appearances in motm, go4sc2, xilence Cup, stim.tv and other tournaments. And i think it will be more exciting to watch for the viewers. At the end of the day the viewers are the ones who bring in the money.
and for all the questions, maybe take a look into the mapforum once in a while. nasl would not just take some random mapmaker and let them make maps for a big tournament. the mapmaking community has grown since the beginning of sc2 and it shows now more then ever before. with motm getting bigger and bigger, the gathering of topmapmakers to create teams to get even more better. its not only the koreans who can create good maps. look at the iccup/esv team, u all love what they are doing and screamed for iccup maps when blizzard announced the season 3 laddermappool. now take the chance and see where we can go with it.
I'm sure the people at TPW have worked very hard to make sure that there are no exploits or errors in these maps, and am looking forward to the games that will be played on these! Community maps are a lot more interesting and fun than people are willing to realize.
Entirely new map pool? Thats cool and weird at the same time. Either way I hope they produce some awesome games and look forward to seeing them. A few of the maps taht I looked at seemed pretty cool, but only time will tell.
All new maps is a bit extreme I think... That's like going into the NBA and giving them an egg-shaped Basketball and saying "Good Luck!". Like playing Soccer in a Hockey rink. You're giving the players a chance to just straight auto-lose regardless of their skill.
You've effectively shaved off an entire layer of skill from this game. Furthermore, the commentating is going to suffer as well. Our top commentators, at least, generally know what builds are normal for the standard maps and are able to identify and talk about any deviations or risky play. With all new maps, who the hell knows if it's a good idea to Nexus/CC/Hatch first or whatever.
I expect players that are involved in several different tournaments to suffer from this the most as they won't be able/willing to spare the time to practice on these new maps. Seeing as the how the players who are in the most tournaments are likely to be the best players, I think this move is crippling the NASL. The level of play (and commentating) will not be as high as it could be.
do they really expect anyone to pay 10$ to play a tournament on stupid maps to qualify for another tournament with 16 non-announced pros? where is the trick?
On September 15 2011 07:41 Toxi78 wrote: do they really expect anyone to pay 10$ to play a tournament on stupid maps to qualify for another tournament with 16 non-announced pros? where is the trick?
The trick is the prize money if you win the NASL finals.
On September 15 2011 07:24 Sylvr wrote: You've effectively shaved off an entire layer of skill from this game.
Or they added the skill to react to a new map
That's going to depend on the map really. Some stuff, it just isn't reasonable to expect anyone to intuit. Mostly thinking about stuff like proxy locations, prime harass locations (Think of the cliff at the Natural on Tal'Darim), back doors, ambush points (like shrubbery), scouting paths, attack paths, and probably a lot more that I'm not thinking of. There are a lot of things that people learn about a map over time that really serve to showcase a player's skill if they're able to exploit or defend against them.
I just can't help but see that many more chances for a player to lose and say "Oh, I didn't know about that", which I, personally, don't want to see at the highest levels of play.
On September 15 2011 07:49 dezi wrote: Lol, people crying about maps ... i really wonder what they do when Blizz changes Ladderpool (again). Stop playing because it's new ... hahaha.
I agree with this, if they are a good enough player then the new maps shouldn't affect them that much because the other person they face won't know much about the maps either.
On September 15 2011 07:49 dezi wrote: Lol, people crying about maps ... i really wonder what they do when Blizz changes Ladderpool (again). Stop playing because it's new ... hahaha.
At the pro level, ladder is little more then a means of practice against random opponents and the things that come with practice (build experimentation, metagame participation, refinement of mechanics and so forth).
Tournaments, especially big-name ones, are where you play 'for reals' and test your skill in true competition and apply all that you learned and refined in practice in competition against others who have done the same. The end result of this is that you get fantastic, high-level games.
You also get the added element of preparing against specific players, the mind games involved with this (I normally do X, so knowing he knows this I will do something else unless he actually thinks I will do something else... etc) and map-specific builds and metagame.
Essentially blindsiding the players via map pool can certainly can lead to some amusing entertainment, but it cheapens the competition. You remove a lot of the preparation possible which leads to much better games (see Boxer in NASL 1, and how much his preparation paid off).
In relation to this, many pros have complained having to try to practice so many different maps for different tournaments, and this complaint often comes from rather subtle variants in the maps (like various shakuras variants). Having a totally new map pool may sound cool and make the map makers you are endorsing (and their fans) happy, but you make things harder on your players and thus cheapen the spectators experience as well (as the players will be less likely to be able to produce their best games).
To comment on the maps specifically, it is 'interesting' that you did not take the cues from GSL to make a varied map pool that allowed for diverse styles of play without being too gimmicky (dual sight, XNF, daybreak) instead of just making everything like Crevasse. Hope you like hour-long TvTs and your giant maps.
On September 15 2011 07:49 dezi wrote: Lol, people crying about maps ... i really wonder what they do when Blizz changes Ladderpool (again). Stop playing because it's new ... hahaha.
At the pro level, ladder is little more then a means of practice against random opponents and the things that come with practice (build experimentation, metagame participation, refinement of mechanics and so forth).
Tournaments, especially big-name ones, are where you play 'for reals' and test your skill in true competition and apply all that you learned and refined in practice in competition against others who have done the same. The end result of this is that you get fantastic, high-level games.
You also get the added element of preparing against specific players, the mind games involved with this (I normally do X, so knowing he knows this I will do something else unless he actually thinks I will do something else... etc) and map-specific builds and metagame.
Essentially blindsiding the players via map pool can certainly can lead to some amusing entertainment, but it cheapens the competition. You remove a lot of the preparation possible which leads to much better games (see Boxer in NASL 1, and how much his preparation paid off).
In relation to this, many pros have complained having to try to practice so many different maps for different tournaments, and this complaint often comes from rather subtle variants in the maps (like various shakuras variants). Having a totally new map pool may sound cool and make the map makers you are endorsing (and their fans) happy, but you make things harder on your players and thus cheapen the spectators experience as well (as the players will be less likely to be able to produce their best games).
To comment on the maps specifically, it is 'interesting' that you did not take the cues from GSL to make a varied map pool that allowed for diverse styles of play without being too gimmicky (dual sight, XNF, daybreak) instead of just making everything like Crevasse. Hope you like hour-long TvTs and your giant maps.
what the hell are u talking about. the tournament is in 15 days, enough time to practice the maps. and furthermore when u say everything look like crevasse and is huge i know for 100% that u didnt take a single look on them.
the maps are all pretty standard and no pro player should have problems to adept strategies. an i personally thing that new maps are not really a big thing in starcraft2. its still the same, earing minerals building armee, take a natural etc.
I'm glad you're using planetary workshop maps. I think showcasting them in the open is the best way to test it, much like how GSL uses the GSTL as the map testing ground.
I don't understand people whining about map exploits. If you have the skill to find that and others don't, then you should be rewarded for it...instead of being the person who grinded the most on any given map. As long as NASL is willing to patch any obvious exploits that pop up, I don't see the problem.
But I'm a bit confused about the timing. So the open tournament is happening *before* the regular tournament this time?
its like people sat down at a table and tried to design the most horrible, nonn-entertaining, lame for the players and watchers, tournament design possible.
the following is something i wrote to show some problems with code A and Code S that causes code S to sort of feel stale
with the current system, code a could be seen as a season-long qualifier to get into the next code S tournament...
I think the main possible area of improvement i see in all of this is, lets say some dude out there is extremely skilled after a few months of practice and has a few weeks of incredible genius in sc2 for some unknowable reason.
I this this is EXTREMELY hypothetical, but hear me out.
If this dude wanted to get into code S he would need to spend 1 entire season doing code A, then he would have to get far enough into code A in that season to get into up/down. Then he would have to win the up/down and he could be in code S.
So he would have to do the season-long code a which is like a qualifiers to get into the next code S
(( And winning the up/down seems kind of like a silly format given that its BO1's between top players... but thats another discussion. ))
I guess im trying to say, if this dude somehow has a flash of genius right now id wanna see that dude in the code S tournament right now, not next season. With a type of open seeding element added to the tournament, the same dude could theoretically win code S in a single season without having to wait.
however, i agree my scenario is very hypothetical... but i believe sc2 has a high level of volatility that increasing the "new blood" level of a code s tournament could give Code S even more of a highly competitive mystique because the code S players would have to be superior to eachother and be superior to any bright stars that are materializing at that very moment.
And lets say one of these bright stars does good in code A, gets into code S, then during that season loses and goes to up/down and goes back into code A. Such a person would be doing a entire codeA season to qualify for one codeS season, then after dropping out he has to do ANOTHER codeA SEASON AGAIN to qualify for 1 more code S season. And if such a bright star has a flash of genius yet again he no longer has the "chance" to win code s for that season because his only option now is to spend another season trying to qualify again.
Im not saying the dude doesnt deserve to drop out for losing his games, im just saying such a system is not too forgiving in the time-department for many pro players out there.
Also heres another way of looking at it. if a pro wants to qualify into code S he has to spend a entire long season doing code A, and then its not even a garuntee. So a pro spends like a 50 day Code A season of playing and doesnt even know after that whether or not his chance is 100% of being in the next code S tournament.
With my idea, a pro would ONLY need to spend a few days playing that open tournament, and if he places high enough in the open tournament he knows after only a few days whether or not he 100% has a spot in the code s tournament or not. Giving pro players such a quick way (however a highly competitive way) to spend a few days playing to give them a 100% yes/no answer of "you are seeded in the next code s tournament" is a great way of increasing the chances of pros from around the world trying it out.
the thing about the above problem is at least Code S is known as the greatest pinnacle of competition so they can have a sort of raunchy system and get away with it
something that makes NASL lame compared to GSL is the fact that in GSL you know for sure after the first week whether or not you are eliminated from the tournament. after you get knocked out of the Code S RO32, you are free to fly all over the world competing in other tournaments with no other responsibility
in NASL, players arent knocked out every week. instead you have to play for the FULL entire massive group play period, then theres a short few-day-final where people are knocked out
like 99% of nasl is the pool play period.
. essentially, EVERY nasl player has to play the ""entire tournament"" before he knows if hes been knocked out. in GSL, you may only need to play 1 day and you lose so you are knocked out and you dont have to play in the tournament any more and you can travel around the world and be free until next season
in GSL, its possible for you to only need to play for 1 week/day before you know your knocked out of the finals. in NASL, every player needs to play the entire tournament....
To the people saying that they have plenty of time to practice the maps, and that the person who takes the time to practice them SHOULD have an advantage: A lot of the best players in this tournament are preparing for SEVERAL tournaments. This means that they might NOT have plenty of time to practice on them. Lower tier players that aren't invited/don't qualify for as many tournaments don't have this problem, which gives them a potential advantage that may make the gap between the players look much smaller than it actually is.
I'd prefer not to see worse players winning series just because they had all the time in the world to sit at home and grind out these maps while the top pros had to prepare for half a dozen other tournaments that used completely different maps. It's gimmicks like this that give us these flash-in-the-pan champions who exploit some non-skill aspect of the game/tournament and then fall off the scene because they're actually terrible. It's almost as bad as a Bo1 tourney.
I'm pretty sure every player who pays to join will see that they will be playing on new maps. It's not like they take off a blindfold and "surprise! you get to play new maps this tournament, good luck!" They will be able to see what they're getting themselves into. So if they lose MISERABLY, you can't say they weren't prepared for it.
EPT
