On September 13 2011 02:33 hunts wrote: so with fungal nerf, NP nerf, baneling drop removal, this leaveszerg with what exactly vs a protoss death ball?
Also test stuff out for yourself on PTR. instead of relying on some random person's video. If something is broken, Blizzard will fix it. After all, you zergs got buff after bufff after buff through incessant whining. You will receive buffs if required.
Do you possess any evidence in support of your claim that Blizzard buffed zerg due to community whining?
On September 13 2011 02:38 ohampatu wrote: Sorry blazing. Somehow quote got messed up, logged me out.
Do this test:
Make a square of 8 gw's. Try and use Terran dropships on top of the gw. Try and use Protoss dropships on top of the gw. Try and use Zerg dropshiops on top of the gw.
Only the zerg's will work. This is not fair.
I'm fairly sure that the problem with baneling drops isn't bane drops being used to attack Gateways, but rather, its interaction with protoss deathball.
You misunderstand. The test above proves that Zerg drops aren't following the same 'rules' that Terran and Protoss's are. I dont care how long its been being used. If i can't duplicate the same drop pattern you can do on a different race, its bugged. Get off your high horse. Too many zerg have been doing ez drops on us thinking is ok, and its not. Also, this is ptr. They are prolly working on the code to perfect it how they want.
They dont care 'how youve been playing for months'.
Specifically, it's baneling drops. In theory, as zerg, you could NP a probe, make a nexus, pylon, gateway, cyber core, robo, then warp prism, and use warp prisms to drop banelings in the same way. Baneling dictates this behavior, not overlord.
In any case, it seems like this was a somewhat balanced mechanic that might have needed a nerf, and got over-nerfed, or something. You make a good point in that it's PTR: they might have made a mistake in the adjustment and will fix this going forwards. I hope that threads like this help spread the word about it.
As a toss player, i dont mind if they can drop on my army actually. LOL, i was just proving it is indeed a bug fix.
Ideally, i think they should keep it in, and mebe tweak code untill its working as intended. Something like, 'banes can drop when 'this much' space is open'. So like, if theres even just a small amount, banes will still work. That way it still prevents other units from abusing this. Cuzz currently you can abuse this mechanic with different units as zerg.
Really? Because I was under the impression (and correct me if I'm wrong) that this was a problem specific to banelings, not overlords-- you can't drop roaches or queens or whatever into the middle of armies unless there's space (out of any transport, medivac, warp prism, etc) whereas you can drop banes wherever you want (out of any transport, medivac, warp prism, etc) in the current patch, and in the PTR they're patching banelings, not overlords.
Meh, i might be wrong. I had swore i played few games recently where ling/roach drops into my main acted similar. Was prolly just hte lings landing in small areas though. Not able to pull up any replays. So ignore if false :/
On September 13 2011 02:59 hugman wrote: Watch this video again (this is from 1.3) Look at the last baneling dropped from the last overlord. It is dropped out of synch (later than it should be) and it's dropped further forward than you'd expect, outside the zealot ball. Presumably because there was no room to drop. If that's the case then I don't think anything has changed and the guy making the experiment wasn't careful enough to have identical zealot clumps.
From what I've seen, baneling bombing can still happen. All this discussion about weather baneling bombs are "right" or not seems pointless. I suppose I'll hop on the bandwagon and test it myself though...
On September 13 2011 02:49 FrodaN wrote: So...Blizzard meant to put in an intelligent nerf, but instead broke it to make baneling drops useless. I just hope they don't treat this like the phoenix bugs...
I love these posts. They are the best. No fact checking or reading. Just broad statements that serve to enrage the rest of the thread:
Blizzard: We have fixed a bug that allowed zerg units to drop where there was no space. This only comes into play 1% of the time. Drops are still possible, just not in tightly clumped units.
Zerg play: BANELING DROPS ARE RUINED!!! THE END HAS COME!!!! THE RETURN OF THE DEALTH BALL WILL DESTORY US ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MY RACE IS WORTHLESS NOW, DOESN'T BLIZZARD KNOW WE CAN'T WIN WITHOUT THIS BUG!!!! EVER!
On September 13 2011 02:41 DoomsVille wrote: To be fair, why should banelings need ground space to drop? Logically, the banelings are just dropping on top of units and exploding. Not the same as a unit landing on the ground and than attacking.
And I'm talking from a purely practical perspective. Not a gameplay or SC2 perspective. If you drop a bomb on top of someone, you don't need it to hit the ground first lol
Their attack is exploding. They are not bombs. They are units. Just because something is called a bomb in a game (by spectators, not designers, mind you) because it looks like something in the real world doesn't mean that it has to take the form of that specific thing. How do you know what it was intended to be or look like?
Balance/Bug Fixes aside, the entire concept of a baneling having to have to have space to land is completely retarded in and of itself.
Why? Is it not a moving unit that occupies space? Where are my exception units that are allowed to bend the rules of the game (and physics for that matter...)
I'm going to give you time to think about it. It's not that hard.
I honestly don't see how this changes anything. At what point in a battle will the protoss ever be in a really tight ball? The only way is if they are manually trying to do it. Otherwise their army will spread out a little (or a lot in my case because I spread my army manually against infestors). Therefore if there are ANY gaps at all then bane drops will work. Also, if a protoss does try and stay clumped in a little ball do you know how bad he will get owned by fungal growth?
On September 13 2011 02:49 FrodaN wrote: So...Blizzard meant to put in an intelligent nerf, but instead broke it to make baneling drops useless. I just hope they don't treat this like the phoenix bugs...
I love these posts. They are the best. No fact checking or reading. Just broad statements that serve to enrage the rest of the thread:
Blizzard: We have fixed a bug that allowed zerg units to drop where there was no space. This only comes into play 1% of the time. Drops are still possible, just not in tightly clumped units.
Zerg play: BANELING DROPS ARE RUINED!!! THE END HAS COME!!!! THE RETURN OF THE DEALTH BALL WILL DESTORY US ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MY RACE IS WORTHLESS NOW, DOESN'T BLIZZARD KNOW WE CAN'T WIN WITHOUT THIS BUG!!!! EVER!
I love these posts. They are the best. No fact checking or reading. Just broad statements that serve to enrage the rest of the thread. Oh god the irony.
Baneling drops puts alot of pressure on the P, and bronze-platinum players dont like this, and theese players are the majority of the overall players. Blizzard already lost 1 million ladder players, they don't wanna continue on that route obviously.
On September 13 2011 02:49 FrodaN wrote: So...Blizzard meant to put in an intelligent nerf, but instead broke it to make baneling drops useless. I just hope they don't treat this like the phoenix bugs...
Blizzard: We have fixed a bug that allowed zerg units to drop where there was no space. This only comes into play 1% of the time. Drops are still possible, just not in tightly clumped units.
Another brain dead. This kills (if OP's claims are correct) an entire approach to the match up that was one of the most demanding of skill and multitasking from both sides. And for the entire zerg progamer population, I'd say it's at least 5-10%, and for some players it's 90%+ [roach bane drop, infestor opening into bane drop into ultra, Morrow's ling bane into bane drop into infestor]
On September 13 2011 02:41 DoomsVille wrote: To be fair, why should banelings need ground space to drop? Logically, the banelings are just dropping on top of units and exploding. Not the same as a unit landing on the ground and than attacking.
And I'm talking from a purely practical perspective. Not a gameplay or SC2 perspective. If you drop a bomb on top of someone, you don't need it to hit the ground first lol
Their attack is exploding. They are not bombs. They are units. Just because something is called a bomb in a game (by spectators, not designers, mind you) because it looks like something in the real world doesn't mean that it has to take the form of that specific thing. How do you know what it was intended to be or look like?
Balance/Bug Fixes aside, the entire concept of a baneling having to have to have space to land is completely retarded in and of itself.
Why? Is it not a moving unit that occupies space? Where are my exception units that are allowed to bend the rules of the game (and physics for that matter...)
I'm going to give you time to think about it. It's not that hard.
On September 13 2011 02:05 Olsson wrote: Great. Two things viable against protoss deathball:
Fungal: Nerfed but will still be decent.
Baneling Rain: Completely nullified and worthless now.
Don't forget the neural parasite nerf
so in your head , an infestor can neural parasite a mothership or a battlecruiser ...makes perfect sense
it's not about what makes RL sense, there's enough hand-wavium that goes on that it's not the point at all. It's about the balance of the situation. This however is entirely off-topic for the post at hand.
If the original claims were true there would have been a massive balance shift (combined with NP/FG nerfs) but it looks like this is not as drastic a change as was thought, so we don't really need to worry.
On September 13 2011 02:05 Olsson wrote: Great. Two things viable against protoss deathball:
Fungal: Nerfed but will still be decent.
Baneling Rain: Completely nullified and worthless now.
Don't forget the neural parasite nerf
so in your head , an infestor can neural parasite a mothership or a battlecruiser ...makes perfect sense
How is that any less logical than being able to NP a siege tank?
I mean I don't understand the logic that you need room to land anyways. Should roaches not be able to unburrow in the middle of an enemy army? Should forcefields not be able to be cast where there are units, but only in empty open ground?
On September 13 2011 02:05 Olsson wrote: Great. Two things viable against protoss deathball:
Fungal: Nerfed but will still be decent.
Baneling Rain: Completely nullified and worthless now.
Don't forget the neural parasite nerf
so in your head , an infestor can neural parasite a mothership or a battlecruiser ...makes perfect sense
It's a bug creature belonging to a race of telepathic aliens capable of FTL travel despite having no technology. Whether or not it makes "sense" for it to mind control a flying saucer is irrelevant.
Tested this out a bit on EU PTR server: Here are my conclusions:
There is an issue with dropping on deathballs:
- If you issue a drop command on a huge and tight ball, then banelings will temporarily cease dropping when around the middle of the ball. It won't "stop" the drop command, as it will automatically resume towards the outskirts of the ball again.
4 banelings attempted dropped on top of a super-tight ball. 3 banelings dropped at beginning, all hit on the outskirt. Last baneling was dropped towards the other end of the ball.
Banelings dropped without problems on a not-super tight ball.
- Banelings are now "displaced" a little bit when dropped around the outskirts of the ball. A guess, which is my own rough estimate, would be that banelings can be displaced about 3 units range before the drop command temporarily ceases. Bear in mind that even small holes in the clump are potential dropsites, so these "halts" in drops would probably be very very uncommon.
- I recreated what I thought was a typical 1-a deathball vs ultra-ling-banelingbombs scenario, the protoss ball spread out in a concave that was thin enough to apparently not stop the drops from occuring.
- Usually, you can move a transport unit around freely after initiating a "drop while moving" command, but if you reissue a move command while under the "drop while moving command" over undroppable space, the drop command will be halted. Bear in mind the drop command would otherwise automatically resume when reaching the outskirts of the ball.
TLDR: Bug is there, but it probably requires unrealistic conditions to take full effect, though it may reduce overall damage capabilities of the baneling drops.
On September 13 2011 02:36 Jayrod wrote: lol jesus, what's with the hostility towards me. I was just explaining what the fix does. I just said baneling bombs were never intended to be able to be dropped on top of stacked up units. The way they wrote the bug fix note is confusing but thats because it HAD to be confusing to be correct. The bug allowed them to drop on top of stacked up armies, but it only happened when dropping on fog of war. Try dropping banelings on your own zerg army that is stacked up... it doesnt work at all... there's no room.
I think baneling bombs are exciting to watch, but its still a bug... not sure if they should fix it or not...
Why shouldn't you be able to drop *bombs* that explode upon the head of the aforementioned enemy units if there is no grounds available ? They can perfectly blow up before touching ground, why shouldn't this be logical ?
Would be quite easy to determine if the units making the ball underneath are friend or foe... Friend : no landing, no room, foe : why the fuck do we care ? BOOOOMMMM § (on a programmer point of view) The fact that it's a "unit" by the game logic, which need space on the ground, is a design flaw, and could be easily fixed.
EPT
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