|
On September 13 2011 02:53 RTudoRR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 02:03 demonik187 wrote:
As much as I hate to say it, Banelings drops in a dense area actually make more sense because they never technically should touch the ground as they explode on impact. Other units I could see not being able to drop if the area is too packed with units/stuff. then maybe banelings should do friendly fire aswell?? since hey , it makes a HELL lot of sense that when something EXPLODES it doesn't care if it's friend or foe right?
nonono, that would make too much sense... then spells like Psionic Storm or stuff like Siege mode tanks would have to do friendly damage too!
On another note, wtb fungal friendly fire ^_^
|
On September 13 2011 03:28 SoKHo wrote:
So happy baneling drops on the mineral line are gone. That stuff was ridiculous. Especially when they faked dropped an overlord, and you have to pull your probes every time.
This shouldn't effect that whatsoever.
|
On September 13 2011 03:28 SoKHo wrote:
So happy baneling drops on the mineral line are gone. That stuff was ridiculous. Especially when they faked dropped an overlord, and you have to pull your probes every time.
Why was it ridiculous? You're supposed to build 2+ cannons per line vs this strategy. You seem to not be doing this if he keeps faking you. Why weren't you doing this?
|
On September 13 2011 03:24 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 03:08 flowSthead wrote:
I also don't understand why every time Blizzard makes a change you don't like, the necessary conclusion is "Blizzard is fucking stupid". The arrogance and lack of logic from some of you is astounding.
Do none of you adhere to White-Ra's "More GG, More Win"? That's Blizzard's entire game model. They don't have an issue with putting out tons and tons of patches, because they know that even if they make a mistake, they can fix it. I am happy they are trying to make the best game they can. That is smart. Yes, at a certain point I would like patches to stop as well. But come on! The fact that they are patching does not make them stupid. This mentality worked for Diablo 2, because Blizzard never intended it to be balanced. This mentality has been terrible for WoW, because Blizzard tweaks one thing and breaks two others. Blizzard's stance doesn't take into account the limitations and innovations of current/future players and the result is not necessarily a better game. It results in a more streamlined game, which may ultimately leave less intricacies for top players to manage. It may fix a bug in the engine, but it also affects balance, especially when banelings get dropped on the side instead of in the middle. The BW mutalisk example is apt for the entire situation. Not only was it a bug that wasn't discovered for 7 years but once it was revealed, it became an extremely exciting and crucial part of ZvZ and ZvT. Things take time to develop, and just because it's a bug doesn't mean it's bad for the game.
The WoW-ification balance of Starcraft2 is something I both dread and fear. WoW used to be fun when there were strong traits about characters that made them feel imba. Many in fact were but the classes were at least fun to play. A shadow priest was something unique, as was a mage. I enjoyed having something particularly strong about my class, such as Vampiric Embrace for priests and the best AoE (among other things) for mages. Now that everything is near equal, the only differences are cosmetic. I hope Blizzard can look at how seriously WoW Arena is considered as an e-sport (Imo Starcraft 2 surpassed it before it was officially released), how many disillusioned or bored players there are, and not screw it up for Starcraft 2.
It's not this "bug fix" that concerns me, but the proposed Neural Parasite change. Why not just lower the range, making it potentially more unforgiving? From what I can tell, their issue is with late game Zerg armies that have a ton of infestors being very difficult to deal with. Ultras will suffer the same fate as WoW classes (even though this trait isn't often talked about or key) if they lose their unique status of being immune to stuns and mind control. In spite of my knee-jerk feeling to take everything Idra says about balance with a grain of salt, I actually am starting to think this change is "utterly retarded."
|
Protoss clumps units; zerg fungals.
Protoss unclumps units; zerg drops banelings.
I fail to see the issue here.
To elaborate, since that was kind of a shitty post, if the protoss FF's his army into a small ball, he'll be vulnerable to fungals. If he spreads, he'll be vulnerable to baneling drops. Why is this nerf an issue? It doesn't seem to change that much.
The real bad part is removing FoW queued commands on mineral line drops. That's silly.
|
EmilA is correct, according to my tests, baneling bombs are still possible but it will always hit the outskirts of a deathball. This means the overall DPS of banelings have been slaughtered in this matchup, because instead of a the full 360 degree splash on top of units, the splash will hit around 180 degrees of units. This distributes baneling splash without any effort from the protoss, I'd have to disagree with this change.
MS paint added for further explanation:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CXkgL.png)
Black dots w/purple outlines are stalkers, green circle is bane splash.
|
Tested it. I'm having mixed results replicating the bug.
However, if this is the case, I think it's safe to say my switch to Protoss or Terran will be solidified. If Blizzard doesn't want us to fight Protoss deathballs with masterful neurals or Baneling drops, then I cannot think of another way to really defeat them. Archons do have Ultralisks listed as a Zerg counter to them on the Help page, however, Ultralisks can also get sniped by a large number of Zealots surrounding or from the criticial mass of ranged units, hence the effectiveness of Blink Stalkers too.
I think this patch will fuck up the metagame for a bit and ensure both Terran and Protoss dominance. Sure fungals will still be a good idea but the point of Neural Parasite will be mostly negated with the change to not affect Massive units.
I cannot say if this will be the end of Zerg because not even pros have really mastered the race yet, and there are changes in the metagame all the time at the moment.
In the case of Colossus, I think it will take several methods to take them out, namely large Corruptor/Brood Lord numbers and a few key fungals in order to deal enough area based damage to the deathball whilst your ground forces push further in.
In the case of Chargelot/Archon/HT..... probably a much scarier situation. The worst a Zerg can do with fungals is neural parasite the HTs and make them either feedback or storm each other, or attempt to fungal the ball whilst kiting the chargelot numbers as best as they can.
I think Chargelot/Archon/HT will be a much more difficult composition to counter post patch, and will be a style played like Zerg, with the goal to spread out and prevent fungals as well as getting a surround with chargelots whilst using the Archons and HT combo to deal huge area damage and harm any spellcasters.
Plus baneling drop nerfs will make the MorroW style much less effective.
|
On September 13 2011 03:36 Soluhwin wrote:EmilA is correct, according to my tests, baneling bombs are still possible but it will always hit the outskirts of a deathball. This means the overall DPS of banelings have been slaughtered in this matchup, because instead of a the full 360 degree splash on top of units, the splash will hit around 180 degrees of units. This distributes baneling splash without any effort from the protoss, I'd have to disagree with this change. MS paint added for further explanation: Black dots w/purple outlines are stalkers, green circle is bane splash.
anyone else think of gemini level of megaman 3?
|
Also to all the folks who are saying that this would make every protoss try to squeeze their army to stop the drop from happening, let me add myself to the protosses who have been saying that is a ridiculously bad idea and that I would personally never do it. There is no way to reliably clamp your units instantly as far as I know and banelings are pretty darn small units. In the heat of battle all it'll take is for 1 zealot to squirm abit trying to get to the roaches hitting his fellows for your entire army to evaporate. Sorry, unless someone can prove me wrong and demonstrate the existence of an instant and reliable way to squeeze my army, my first reaction to a pack of ovies coming overhead will remain blink, spread, ff, kite.
|
Dont mind this change and i tink its is good, as long as theres chain fungal growth.
Just moving two overlords in two mineral lines and then continuing to macro etc was too big of an advantage compared the the damage it does to the protoss imo, if he doesnt pull probes in time, kinda like zerg bfh^^
|
I hope Morrow wasn't drinking a hot beverage while reading this.
On topic: Good change, but the problem will still be ling/infestor completely stopping all toss pressure in the midgame.
|
On September 13 2011 01:55 arbitrageur wrote:If current 1.4.0 PTR goes through, it seems Zerg can no longer use baneling drops against Protoss (see end of post for for ppl that semi-dispute this claim as well as others that endorse it in tests). You can still technically do it (if the video I've linked is an accurate representation of the change) but the tech isn't going to be worth it because the damage output in a big fight may be ~30% as much as it used to be, as you'll see in the video (perhaps 0% because they can now FF wall their army). The change, under bug-fixes: Show nested quote +Transports can no longer unload units into a dense area if the original order was issued on a fogged location.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210348
This thread, from April 2011, dealt with this issue as a bug. It contains elements of the same discussion--clumping versus non-clumping.
I'm fine with them dropping directly on units (unlike P and T). But I also agree with those who are claiming that this IS a bug.
|
On September 13 2011 03:31 spbelky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 02:53 RTudoRR wrote:On September 13 2011 02:03 demonik187 wrote:
As much as I hate to say it, Banelings drops in a dense area actually make more sense because they never technically should touch the ground as they explode on impact. Other units I could see not being able to drop if the area is too packed with units/stuff. then maybe banelings should do friendly fire aswell?? since hey , it makes a HELL lot of sense that when something EXPLODES it doesn't care if it's friend or foe right? nonono, that would make too much sense... then spells like Psionic Storm or stuff like Siege mode tanks would have to do friendly damage too! On another note, wtb fungal friendly fire ^_^
wtf are you playing sc2? O_O
or I failed to see the sarcasm in that post sorry^^
€: on a site note, how does that effect medivac drops btw? If a terran ques up move/unload command behind the mineral line and I happen to have lets say 2-3 stalkers in "that area" will the unload command be canceled the medivac keeps floating in the air or does it automatically move to a free spot to drop
basically what I want to know is if its the same as with terran buldings then where you have to land the cc again if a zergling was under the original landing spot
|
"Working as intended"
- Blizzard
Joking aside, I do think that they made a mistake somewhere, there is no way this change will go on like that on the live servers.
|
On September 13 2011 03:36 Soluhwin wrote:EmilA is correct, according to my tests, baneling bombs are still possible but it will always hit the outskirts of a deathball. This means the overall DPS of banelings have been slaughtered in this matchup, because instead of a the full 360 degree splash on top of units, the splash will hit around 180 degrees of units. This distributes baneling splash without any effort from the protoss, I'd have to disagree with this change. MS paint added for further explanation: Black dots w/purple outlines are stalkers, green circle is bane splash.
Yeah that picture is a good TL;DR for my post as well. But if you make the ball big enough and cluster it tightly, there'll be some space where units won't be dropped at all.
|
On September 13 2011 03:36 Soluhwin wrote:EmilA is correct, according to my tests, baneling bombs are still possible but it will always hit the outskirts of a deathball. This means the overall DPS of banelings have been slaughtered in this matchup, because instead of a the full 360 degree splash on top of units, the splash will hit around 180 degrees of units. This distributes baneling splash without any effort from the protoss, I'd have to disagree with this change. MS paint added for further explanation: Black dots w/purple outlines are stalkers, green circle is bane splash.
Hmmm, I'm curious. Did you test the 360 degree splash case in 1.3 extensively too? Like I said, the tone of the patch note implied that you never could drop on fully clumped units even in 1.3.
|
On September 13 2011 03:22 skatbone wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 02:38 Horse...falcon wrote:
Executor! Banelings are falling from the sky!
Quick, everyone huddle closer! :D This does make the INTENDED mechanic seem ridiculous.
And you are aware of the complex Bio/Cellmechanisms and reactions that occur in a Zerg body ?
I guess not and no one realy knows this its realy hard for the best scientists of the Terrans to even find out what kind of Biological weapons they can use to make mass Zerg destroying weapons u know a against insects u just use spray to kill em´ .
Thats what made Zerg even that hard to deal with for the Humans , hell even the Protoss cant realy figure them out.
But you know...
there are rumors...
some people said that banelings have problems with air pressure .. more precisely they saw when a overlord had no more creep stored and looked kind of thirsty n stuff like the people who survived and thought they were doomed saw the Banelings exploding in the air.
Thats why the theory is that Overlords use their creep as protection of the pressure in comparision to normaly just dropping n stuff .
That might explain aswell why they are getting so close to the ground i mean the farer away the better right ?
But we cant confirm rumors because Overlords seem to be hard to get thirsty i mean the Zerg used
as main planet a fucking vulcan landscape their biologic structure is strong... mysterious... and effective...
maybe Kerrigan will reveal some of their strenghs and weaknesses in HoTS but thats very unlikely ..
well i guess aslong they have Xel´Naga stuff they are fine GL HF universe lets see who survives.
|
On September 13 2011 03:43 AsnSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 03:31 spbelky wrote:On September 13 2011 02:53 RTudoRR wrote:On September 13 2011 02:03 demonik187 wrote:
As much as I hate to say it, Banelings drops in a dense area actually make more sense because they never technically should touch the ground as they explode on impact. Other units I could see not being able to drop if the area is too packed with units/stuff. then maybe banelings should do friendly fire aswell?? since hey , it makes a HELL lot of sense that when something EXPLODES it doesn't care if it's friend or foe right? nonono, that would make too much sense... then spells like Psionic Storm or stuff like Siege mode tanks would have to do friendly damage too! On another note, wtb fungal friendly fire ^_^ wtf are you playing sc2? O_O or I failed to see the sarcasm in that post sorry^^ €: on a site note, how does that effect medivac drops btw? If a terran ques up move/unload command behind the mineral line and I happen to have lets say 2-3 stalkers in "that area" will the unload command be canceled the medivac keeps floating in the air or does it automatically move to a free spot to drop basically what I want to know is if its the same as with terran buldings then where you have to land the cc again if a zergling was under the original landing spot
Haha it was clearly sarcasm. Any post that beings with "that would make too much sense" is always going to have sarcasm, not to mention that even without that snippet you'd still be able to tell it's sarcasm.
Being from Germany I take is English is your second language  .
|
I won't lie. I'm pleased with that.
|
logically thinking without accounting technical mumbo jumbo, baneling drops as a tactic should punish protoss user (or terran or zerg nvm) who neglects army control i.e clumped deathball, no spreading etc., banelings are one of few SPLASH dmg units in zerg arsenal, only Fungal comes as second weapon to fight clumpy balls.
Zerg is getting destroyed for having clumped units from siege tanks and collosus primarily. And everyone cries how SC2 players are neglecting micro, isnt it ironic when "bug fix" suddenly favors clumping units instead of actually manualy controling them. And no, clumped units happen often when you are near wall / behind forcefield etc. Im ok with this if they remove auto-clumping stupid AI.
I guess Morrow is pissed 
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
