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a really specific Ninja ZvP nerf (1.4.0 PTR) - Page 20

Forum Index > SC2 General
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tarath
Profile Joined April 2009
United States377 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-15 04:02:56
September 15 2011 04:01 GMT
#381
On September 15 2011 12:51 weiliem wrote:
This is freaking lame.... Blizzard doesn't like to see Z winning ZvPs, they want P to have 100% win rate in PvZ, so they proceed into massive nerf on the Z race. 1st nerfing fungal, then now completely nullifying the bane drops, which is fking important against the deathball. Blizzard wants to c death ball in every PvZ games.... TQ blizzard....


Not to burden you with facts but....

GSL August:

PvZ: 23.5% (4W, 13L)

PvT: 34% (16W, 31L)

And now your QQing about something that will likely affect <1% of games. I can't even comprehend how you think this "completely nullifies" baneling drops.
scatmango2
Profile Joined November 2010
United States408 Posts
September 15 2011 04:01 GMT
#382
This nerf was totally needed. It was quite retarded when ~3 banelings could kill a a whole protoss army. People qq'ing on zerg's behalf have no idea that this was just a straight up broken mechanic and needed to be fixed.
NEgroidZerg
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States244 Posts
September 15 2011 04:07 GMT
#383
So you can avoid any drops by jsut forcefielding around your army?
Yeah
YipCraft
Profile Joined July 2011
United States216 Posts
September 15 2011 04:10 GMT
#384
Hmmm...They really really really REALLY want the zerg to return to the sloppy and terrible roach hydra corruptor vs toss...Nothing...Can...Work anymore if all zerg nerfs are going in effect. Ah well, I guess this time I will pack a flashlight for the dark times of Zerg.
integrity
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1014 Posts
September 15 2011 04:13 GMT
#385
On September 15 2011 13:07 NEgroidZerg wrote:
So you can avoid any drops by jsut forcefielding around your army?

if infestors are out the better option is to run away from the drops
Truedot
Profile Joined August 2011
444 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-15 08:10:52
September 15 2011 08:09 GMT
#386
On September 13 2011 08:15 I Hott Sauce I wrote:
Blizz is just raping Zerg now huh

User was warned for this post


Please cite your sources for blizzard raping zerg, and give us details and examples.

About the bane drop situation, under a colossus still counts as "free space" when not occupied, right? Thus a colossus who doesn't have units unit it will basically draw all the banes from the Ols like a magnet, since everywhere else will be packed with stalkers.

Seems like a buff to me.
I used to spend my time not caring about people's language in chat. Until I got hit by blizz. Now I spend my time instigating people to verbal abusive levels, so I can ban them in turn. The circle of life.
Truedot
Profile Joined August 2011
444 Posts
September 15 2011 08:19 GMT
#387
+ Show Spoiler +
On September 13 2011 14:12 DustyShelf wrote:
Hello! I am the creator of the original test (tpyo / BelligerentWombat) and the videos that are linked to. I just wanted to add my 0.02 cents.

First off I should really clarify that I 100% agree with the TL;DR on the original post

That is: "it probably requires unrealistic conditions to take full effect"

I apologise for my sensationalist headline and minimalist commentary on my initial posting on reddit, it has resulted in the community wildly overreacting to the change. It probably wont be an issue for most games. I have performed further testing on more realistic death balls and have clarified that everything should be okay.

Anyway, I did want to clarify a couple of things. The tests were not "failed" in any way. While I appreciate that I used a somewhat unrealistic parameters but I really wanted to see if there was any change between the two versions, hence I made a huge ball of closely clumped together zealots.
I verified my results multiple times. Exactly the same micro and setup was used almost every single time. The holes circled in the OP are not real gaps but merely appear to be due to the perspective of the 3d.
Unless 1.4 also has also made changes to the way one can clump a bunch of zealots those gaps do not exist

To clarify my findings: There is a difference between 1.3 and 1.4 in the way that the drop code is handled. In 1.3 it will permit the dropping of units into a tight cluster of units if it cannot find available space within a specific radius. In 1.4 it will delay the drop command until if finds viable space. However in 1.4 if it fails to find available space within a specific period of time the drop command will be cancelled. This is why in my 1.4 test you can see that most of the overlords fail to drop their full contingent of banelings.

Now while this should not be an issue in most games my fear is that cunning players of the future will find mechanisms to exploit this logic and cause baneling drops to fail. I really wanted to bring light to the fact that there is a flaw in the new logic in 1.4 that should be resolved before people find mechanisms to exploit it. I have added some musings to my thread on battle.net (*shudders*) and I hope the devs take note and consider improving the logic.

One example of such exploits that concern me is how players exploit the "hold" position command on workers in micro fights to make melee troops act idiotically. People seem to champion this as "amazing micro" whereas (as a software engineer) I see it as just a flaw in the system that should be fixed (not that I dislike players that do it but I don't like the fact that the exploit exists at all).

Once more I'd like to apologise for creating the video without the proper commentary alongside it to put into context and for my sensationalist title. I will be more careful with any future postings I make.

Thanks for reading this far.

TL;DR; "it probably requires unrealistic conditions to take full effect" (but there is a difference between the two versions and the tests were genuine)

---------

EDIT: WHOA! Check the post at the top of this page that states:

Show nested quote +
has anyone tested if surrounding your stalkers super tightly with forcefields will make it so banelings cannot even hit the prtosos untis when dropped?


I just did a couple of tests... and by all means we really need to test this further, preferably with two people to make the micro good (as its tough to do it all as one person)..... but from what I can gather It's true.

I don't know if it is unrealistic to have so many sentries/FFs but it is at least possible.

+ Show Spoiler +


And you're correct, And I dont really like that "mechanic" either, of hold position. Not that I don't do it. its another tool in the toolbox, and I've even done this with roaches (since bad players will not realize the range limitation will make them autoattack the workers while on hold position, making it a more resilient worker-kill force), however, the main issue is NOT hold position but "Mineral Walk". Thats the reason it works so well. In BW, this didn't exist.

"Mineral Walk", imo, gets the vote for worst mechanic addition ever. Sure, people are using it to get around or avoid being cheesed, but doesn't that say something about the game itself when a mechanic is abused in such ways to simply survive?

I put 2 and 2 together after a while and decided that I can start scouting Protoss bases with mineral walking drones.

T can do the same thing to protoss.

Meanwhile T is impervious to this.

Just one more way in which they damaged the mechanics of the gameplay for some unknown reason, leading to unintended consequences, and these factors affect balance, because it artificially deflates the value of what a protoss might by trying to tech to in secret, as one of many examples of ways it screws with the game.

I don't see how they ever thought mineral walk was a good idea. ITs the reason hellions are getting nerfed, even though mass hellions can still toast queens and a number of roaches damn quickly.

If only roaches got +2 to light...
I used to spend my time not caring about people's language in chat. Until I got hit by blizz. Now I spend my time instigating people to verbal abusive levels, so I can ban them in turn. The circle of life.
fleeze
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany895 Posts
September 15 2011 20:52 GMT
#388
On September 15 2011 17:19 Truedot wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On September 13 2011 14:12 DustyShelf wrote:
Hello! I am the creator of the original test (tpyo / BelligerentWombat) and the videos that are linked to. I just wanted to add my 0.02 cents.

First off I should really clarify that I 100% agree with the TL;DR on the original post

That is: "it probably requires unrealistic conditions to take full effect"

I apologise for my sensationalist headline and minimalist commentary on my initial posting on reddit, it has resulted in the community wildly overreacting to the change. It probably wont be an issue for most games. I have performed further testing on more realistic death balls and have clarified that everything should be okay.

Anyway, I did want to clarify a couple of things. The tests were not "failed" in any way. While I appreciate that I used a somewhat unrealistic parameters but I really wanted to see if there was any change between the two versions, hence I made a huge ball of closely clumped together zealots.
I verified my results multiple times. Exactly the same micro and setup was used almost every single time. The holes circled in the OP are not real gaps but merely appear to be due to the perspective of the 3d.
Unless 1.4 also has also made changes to the way one can clump a bunch of zealots those gaps do not exist

To clarify my findings: There is a difference between 1.3 and 1.4 in the way that the drop code is handled. In 1.3 it will permit the dropping of units into a tight cluster of units if it cannot find available space within a specific radius. In 1.4 it will delay the drop command until if finds viable space. However in 1.4 if it fails to find available space within a specific period of time the drop command will be cancelled. This is why in my 1.4 test you can see that most of the overlords fail to drop their full contingent of banelings.

Now while this should not be an issue in most games my fear is that cunning players of the future will find mechanisms to exploit this logic and cause baneling drops to fail. I really wanted to bring light to the fact that there is a flaw in the new logic in 1.4 that should be resolved before people find mechanisms to exploit it. I have added some musings to my thread on battle.net (*shudders*) and I hope the devs take note and consider improving the logic.

One example of such exploits that concern me is how players exploit the "hold" position command on workers in micro fights to make melee troops act idiotically. People seem to champion this as "amazing micro" whereas (as a software engineer) I see it as just a flaw in the system that should be fixed (not that I dislike players that do it but I don't like the fact that the exploit exists at all).

Once more I'd like to apologise for creating the video without the proper commentary alongside it to put into context and for my sensationalist title. I will be more careful with any future postings I make.

Thanks for reading this far.

TL;DR; "it probably requires unrealistic conditions to take full effect" (but there is a difference between the two versions and the tests were genuine)

---------

EDIT: WHOA! Check the post at the top of this page that states:

Show nested quote +
has anyone tested if surrounding your stalkers super tightly with forcefields will make it so banelings cannot even hit the prtosos untis when dropped?


I just did a couple of tests... and by all means we really need to test this further, preferably with two people to make the micro good (as its tough to do it all as one person)..... but from what I can gather It's true.

I don't know if it is unrealistic to have so many sentries/FFs but it is at least possible.

+ Show Spoiler +


And you're correct, And I dont really like that "mechanic" either, of hold position. Not that I don't do it. its another tool in the toolbox, and I've even done this with roaches (since bad players will not realize the range limitation will make them autoattack the workers while on hold position, making it a more resilient worker-kill force), however, the main issue is NOT hold position but "Mineral Walk". Thats the reason it works so well. In BW, this didn't exist.

"Mineral Walk", imo, gets the vote for worst mechanic addition ever. Sure, people are using it to get around or avoid being cheesed, but doesn't that say something about the game itself when a mechanic is abused in such ways to simply survive?

I put 2 and 2 together after a while and decided that I can start scouting Protoss bases with mineral walking drones.

T can do the same thing to protoss.

Meanwhile T is impervious to this.

Just one more way in which they damaged the mechanics of the gameplay for some unknown reason, leading to unintended consequences, and these factors affect balance, because it artificially deflates the value of what a protoss might by trying to tech to in secret, as one of many examples of ways it screws with the game.

I don't see how they ever thought mineral walk was a good idea. ITs the reason hellions are getting nerfed, even though mass hellions can still toast queens and a number of roaches damn quickly.

If only roaches got +2 to light...


wtf am i reading?
did you even play bw since you want to justify your whining about hold position and mineral walk by making totally wrong statements....
just for the record: mineral walking exists in bw and was used ever since it was discovered. the only limitation is that you need to scout your opponents minerals first to go into a base since there is actually fog of war. it exists in wc3 too btw.
and hold position is a known micro techninque also used in every blizzard rts and noone has EVER complained about it. maybe because it is just doing what it says and is working as intended.

to the subject of workers on hold: in all blizzard rts workers ALWAYS behave like this. this is not a bug but intended by the designers (though it's sort of a work around to a not easy to solve problem technically). it is to buff workers and give them a fighting chance through attacking all at once or surrounding. and it has never been a problem but lead to exciting micro situation and more options.

and wtf has this to do with the thread at all?
Phant
Profile Joined August 2010
United States737 Posts
September 15 2011 21:13 GMT
#389
I'm perfectly fine with them being able to drop in a clustered army, just show me which overloads are empty and which are loaded =)
Truedot
Profile Joined August 2011
444 Posts
September 15 2011 21:22 GMT
#390
On September 16 2011 05:52 fleeze wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 17:19 Truedot wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On September 13 2011 14:12 DustyShelf wrote:
Hello! I am the creator of the original test (tpyo / BelligerentWombat) and the videos that are linked to. I just wanted to add my 0.02 cents.

First off I should really clarify that I 100% agree with the TL;DR on the original post

That is: "it probably requires unrealistic conditions to take full effect"

I apologise for my sensationalist headline and minimalist commentary on my initial posting on reddit, it has resulted in the community wildly overreacting to the change. It probably wont be an issue for most games. I have performed further testing on more realistic death balls and have clarified that everything should be okay.

Anyway, I did want to clarify a couple of things. The tests were not "failed" in any way. While I appreciate that I used a somewhat unrealistic parameters but I really wanted to see if there was any change between the two versions, hence I made a huge ball of closely clumped together zealots.
I verified my results multiple times. Exactly the same micro and setup was used almost every single time. The holes circled in the OP are not real gaps but merely appear to be due to the perspective of the 3d.
Unless 1.4 also has also made changes to the way one can clump a bunch of zealots those gaps do not exist

To clarify my findings: There is a difference between 1.3 and 1.4 in the way that the drop code is handled. In 1.3 it will permit the dropping of units into a tight cluster of units if it cannot find available space within a specific radius. In 1.4 it will delay the drop command until if finds viable space. However in 1.4 if it fails to find available space within a specific period of time the drop command will be cancelled. This is why in my 1.4 test you can see that most of the overlords fail to drop their full contingent of banelings.

Now while this should not be an issue in most games my fear is that cunning players of the future will find mechanisms to exploit this logic and cause baneling drops to fail. I really wanted to bring light to the fact that there is a flaw in the new logic in 1.4 that should be resolved before people find mechanisms to exploit it. I have added some musings to my thread on battle.net (*shudders*) and I hope the devs take note and consider improving the logic.

One example of such exploits that concern me is how players exploit the "hold" position command on workers in micro fights to make melee troops act idiotically. People seem to champion this as "amazing micro" whereas (as a software engineer) I see it as just a flaw in the system that should be fixed (not that I dislike players that do it but I don't like the fact that the exploit exists at all).

Once more I'd like to apologise for creating the video without the proper commentary alongside it to put into context and for my sensationalist title. I will be more careful with any future postings I make.

Thanks for reading this far.

TL;DR; "it probably requires unrealistic conditions to take full effect" (but there is a difference between the two versions and the tests were genuine)

---------

EDIT: WHOA! Check the post at the top of this page that states:

Show nested quote +
has anyone tested if surrounding your stalkers super tightly with forcefields will make it so banelings cannot even hit the prtosos untis when dropped?


I just did a couple of tests... and by all means we really need to test this further, preferably with two people to make the micro good (as its tough to do it all as one person)..... but from what I can gather It's true.

I don't know if it is unrealistic to have so many sentries/FFs but it is at least possible.

+ Show Spoiler +


And you're correct, And I dont really like that "mechanic" either, of hold position. Not that I don't do it. its another tool in the toolbox, and I've even done this with roaches (since bad players will not realize the range limitation will make them autoattack the workers while on hold position, making it a more resilient worker-kill force), however, the main issue is NOT hold position but "Mineral Walk". Thats the reason it works so well. In BW, this didn't exist.

"Mineral Walk", imo, gets the vote for worst mechanic addition ever. Sure, people are using it to get around or avoid being cheesed, but doesn't that say something about the game itself when a mechanic is abused in such ways to simply survive?

I put 2 and 2 together after a while and decided that I can start scouting Protoss bases with mineral walking drones.

T can do the same thing to protoss.

Meanwhile T is impervious to this.

Just one more way in which they damaged the mechanics of the gameplay for some unknown reason, leading to unintended consequences, and these factors affect balance, because it artificially deflates the value of what a protoss might by trying to tech to in secret, as one of many examples of ways it screws with the game.

I don't see how they ever thought mineral walk was a good idea. ITs the reason hellions are getting nerfed, even though mass hellions can still toast queens and a number of roaches damn quickly.

If only roaches got +2 to light...


wtf am i reading?
did you even play bw since you want to justify your whining about hold position and mineral walk by making totally wrong statements....
just for the record: mineral walking exists in bw and was used ever since it was discovered. the only limitation is that you need to scout your opponents minerals first to go into a base since there is actually fog of war. it exists in wc3 too btw.
and hold position is a known micro techninque also used in every blizzard rts and noone has EVER complained about it. maybe because it is just doing what it says and is working as intended.

to the subject of workers on hold: in all blizzard rts workers ALWAYS behave like this. this is not a bug but intended by the designers (though it's sort of a work around to a not easy to solve problem technically). it is to buff workers and give them a fighting chance through attacking all at once or surrounding. and it has never been a problem but lead to exciting micro situation and more options.

and wtf has this to do with the thread at all?



I played bood war for 10 years. scvs would stack, but their movement would still be impeded by non harvesting units. thus, its not the same as in this game.

hold position is only lame in relation to this "trick". did I say hold position was bad all around? Its been in RTSes since around the dune2000 era.

wtf am I reading?
I used to spend my time not caring about people's language in chat. Until I got hit by blizz. Now I spend my time instigating people to verbal abusive levels, so I can ban them in turn. The circle of life.
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