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a really specific Ninja ZvP nerf (1.4.0 PTR) - Page 18

Forum Index > SC2 General
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JiYan
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3668 Posts
September 13 2011 17:01 GMT
#341
ahh nice peer review / testing :D
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
September 13 2011 17:02 GMT
#342
On September 13 2011 04:32 PenguinWithNuke wrote:
I hope Blizzard is trolling.

Why would you ever hope Blizzard is trolling? This anti-Blizzard/pro-chaos attitude adds nothing to the discussion. If you think Blizzard made a mistake, then explain why you think it's a mistake and leave it at that. It's absurd to tell us that you hope that they're making the mistake on purpose so that they can have a laugh about it.
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
DustyShelf
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom111 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 18:18:20
September 13 2011 18:16 GMT
#343
Just a friendly bump to point out the title and opening paragraph ("MOD EDIT") of the OP is still riddled with inaccuracies.

The logic _has_ changed.
The tests were _not_ failures they were just unrealistic in a 1v1 setting (it would still be possible to exploit this in say: monobattles as per the original test).
However there is only one obvious 1v1 game play change and that is that you can now counter bling drops by surrounding your army with force fields (however impractical this might be).

Aside from those edge cases, bling drops they will still behave in pretty much the same fashion in your normal 1v1 unless some sort crazy micro is developed to exploit the issue (which might not even be possible).
grobo
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Japan6199 Posts
September 13 2011 18:17 GMT
#344
On September 14 2011 01:52 QTIP. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 01:35 grobo wrote:
I'm not even mad anymore, it's just sad.

The game i love so much is seriously turning to shit. As soon as a new strategy is invented and proven to be effective against something, blizzard is just going to destroy it so that casuals don't have to put to any effort into crushing it? Do people not realize that you are not supposed to be able to handle everything with ease? what is the point of playing the game when it's nothing but "wait until 200/200 ----> see who placed their army 1pixel better than their opponent" sigh.

I fear SC2 has become too popular and in order to maximize profit Blizzard decides to cater to the "wrong" crowd.


Really... you should probably re-read the OP.


On September 14 2011 01:43 Binabik wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 01:35 grobo wrote:
I'm not even mad anymore, it's just sad.

The game i love so much is seriously turning to shit. As soon as a new strategy is invented and proven to be effective against something, blizzard is just going to destroy it so that casuals don't have to put to any effort into crushing it? Do people not realize that you are not supposed to be able to handle everything with ease? what is the point of playing the game when it's nothing but "wait until 200/200 ----> see who placed their army 1pixel better than their opponent" sigh.

I fear SC2 has become too popular and in order to maximize profit Blizzard decides to cater to the "wrong" crowd.

Why are there 5 people responding with the exact same answer if the "problem" is already solved -_-


Stop with the "re-read the OP/i'm such a good citizen"-crap, Chill said pretty much the exact same thing i did, but for some reason you let that pass, how peculiar.

The fact is that this change is still in the current version of the PTR, i know that it's unlikely that this will ever have an impact on the game, but it's still not impossible.
We make signature, then defense it.
QTIP.
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2113 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 18:47:26
September 13 2011 18:43 GMT
#345
On September 14 2011 03:17 grobo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 01:52 QTIP. wrote:
On September 14 2011 01:35 grobo wrote:
I'm not even mad anymore, it's just sad.

The game i love so much is seriously turning to shit. As soon as a new strategy is invented and proven to be effective against something, blizzard is just going to destroy it so that casuals don't have to put to any effort into crushing it? Do people not realize that you are not supposed to be able to handle everything with ease? what is the point of playing the game when it's nothing but "wait until 200/200 ----> see who placed their army 1pixel better than their opponent" sigh.

I fear SC2 has become too popular and in order to maximize profit Blizzard decides to cater to the "wrong" crowd.


Really... you should probably re-read the OP.


Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 01:43 Binabik wrote:
On September 14 2011 01:35 grobo wrote:
I'm not even mad anymore, it's just sad.

The game i love so much is seriously turning to shit. As soon as a new strategy is invented and proven to be effective against something, blizzard is just going to destroy it so that casuals don't have to put to any effort into crushing it? Do people not realize that you are not supposed to be able to handle everything with ease? what is the point of playing the game when it's nothing but "wait until 200/200 ----> see who placed their army 1pixel better than their opponent" sigh.

I fear SC2 has become too popular and in order to maximize profit Blizzard decides to cater to the "wrong" crowd.

Why are there 5 people responding with the exact same answer if the "problem" is already solved -_-


Stop with the "re-read the OP/i'm such a good citizen"-crap, Chill said pretty much the exact same thing i did, but for some reason you let that pass, how peculiar.

The fact is that this change is still in the current version of the PTR, i know that it's unlikely that this will ever have an impact on the game, but it's still not impossible.


Chill posted that before it become apparent that the testing method was flawed. If Chill posted after the update mentioning that this is UNTRUE, then I'm sure people would have corrected him.

More importantly, the only reason I bothered to respond was how emotionally distressed you were by the change. "I'm not even mad anymore, it's just sad. The game i love so much is seriously turning to shit."

As well as.... "I fear SC2 has become too popular and in order to maximize profit Blizzard decides to cater to the "wrong" crowd." (lol)

These statements are quite inconsistent with your following comment of "i know that it's unlikely that this will ever have an impact on the game, but it's still not impossible."

So you are beyond anger but now sad, despite knowing that this will probably be a non-issue going into the future. OK...

If anything, I was hoping you would neither be mad / sad with the news updated in the OP. Looks like I've made you mad somehow... sorry about that.
"Trash Micro but Win. Its Marin." - Min Chul
rale
Profile Joined December 2010
United States40 Posts
September 13 2011 19:34 GMT
#346
After testing it more myself, I agree there is a change.

On 1.3, if you attempt a moving drop in an area that's completely occupied, the dropped baneling will deflect to the nearest open point, up to a certain distance. The maximum deflection distance seems to be about 1.5 times the diameter of a forcefield. If there is no open space within the deflection range, it would drop even in areas occupied by units.

On 1.4, if there are no open spaces within the deflection range, the unit is simply not dropped.

In practice, this means you can defend baneling drops by forcefield-donuting your own army, but the risk of doing so is great. The slightest opening will draw most of the banelings in, and it's quite difficult to donut yourself if your army contains any colossus or archons. Also, if there are any infestors in the zerg army, it's obviously suicide.
EmilA
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark4618 Posts
September 13 2011 20:35 GMT
#347
On September 14 2011 04:34 rale wrote:
After testing it more myself, I agree there is a change.

On 1.3, if you attempt a moving drop in an area that's completely occupied, the dropped baneling will deflect to the nearest open point, up to a certain distance. The maximum deflection distance seems to be about 1.5 times the diameter of a forcefield. If there is no open space within the deflection range, it would drop even in areas occupied by units.

On 1.4, if there are no open spaces within the deflection range, the unit is simply not dropped.

In practice, this means you can defend baneling drops by forcefield-donuting your own army, but the risk of doing so is great. The slightest opening will draw most of the banelings in, and it's quite difficult to donut yourself if your army contains any colossus or archons. Also, if there are any infestors in the zerg army, it's obviously suicide.


This is about what I found, though it appears that even when I click a big clump of units to move around the center unit, they'll sometimes form small gaps. So it's hard to test properly.
http://dotabuff.com/players/122305951 playing other games
cactusjack914
Profile Joined March 2011
United States183 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 21:01:40
September 13 2011 20:45 GMT
#348
Post removed, Posted on wrong thread completely. sorry.
"starcraft isn't a hobby, its a lifestyle."
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
September 13 2011 21:05 GMT
#349
Reading the last several responses, it makes me sad that people can't read the OP. It's been known for a while that you can't drop units into a very densely packed areas because the banes need to land to do their damage and if space isn't available, then guess what, you CAN'T drop them. There was no ninja fix or anything. Everything is working AS INTENDED!!!!!
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
DustyShelf
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom111 Posts
September 13 2011 22:49 GMT
#350
Big Fan do you realise the code has changed between 1.3 and 1.4?
In the current version we're playing you CAN drop banes into densely packed areas.
Supamang
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2298 Posts
September 13 2011 22:53 GMT
#351
Hmm, so I see a thread with the word "UNTRUE" and a giant red mod edit saying that proper testing reveals no ninja nerf.

And yet people still continue to post about how this ninja nerf is bullshit. wtf is wrong with you guys?
DustyShelf
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom111 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-13 23:02:53
September 13 2011 23:00 GMT
#352
Yeah..... have a look at the latest video I made (linked below as well as in the OP). Its in the OP just after the paragraph with "mod edit in it".
I've been trying for the past few hours to get the mods to change both the title and the opening paragraph of this thread because its all terribly incorrect but I guess they're busy.

I'm the guy who made the original vids we're discussing and also this new vid that explains the change in a much better fashion.

I did post the new vid in a new thread but that thread got merged into this one and the OP is still not correctly fixed up yet (as I didn't post the OP here so I don't have control over it and no-one reads all the posts from start to end). Just watch the vid to see what i'm on about and realise that there is a change in the PTR (probably not a big deal, but a change nevertheless).
usethis2
Profile Joined December 2010
2164 Posts
September 14 2011 00:21 GMT
#353
On September 14 2011 02:02 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 04:32 PenguinWithNuke wrote:
I hope Blizzard is trolling.

Why would you ever hope Blizzard is trolling? This anti-Blizzard/pro-chaos attitude adds nothing to the discussion. If you think Blizzard made a mistake, then explain why you think it's a mistake and leave it at that. It's absurd to tell us that you hope that they're making the mistake on purpose so that they can have a laugh about it.

Do you remember Blizzard once tried to fix a "bug" where units can be produced by holding down a hotkey, so that you must spam press in order to create same units? Everyone knew/knows it was a thinly veiled attempt to nerf zerg's mid-late game unit production. It was rightfully retracted because no one, other than a select few who just will try to justify anything that might cripple other races regardless of its ramification, wanted such a "bug fix" that takes the RTS interface to that of 10 ears ago. One could consider that feeble attempt by Blizzard pathetic, or trolling.

Honestly to me this "drop bug fix" kind of reminds me of that failed bug fix. It seems like a backhanded attempt at balancing by interface/game mechanic change. If baneling drops were too strong Blizzard should address it in a direct fashion (e.g. by giving protoss more options to deal with them). Instead, they are going after the game mechanic that may or may not have been a bug (after that baneling morph "bug fix" attempt I do not really trust what Blizzard says). You really have to wonder, even if you hated baneling drops to death, if this is the right way to the balance.

My answer is no and Blizzard is either trolling or throwing a towel in racial balance.
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6226 Posts
September 14 2011 00:27 GMT
#354
On September 14 2011 04:34 rale wrote:
After testing it more myself, I agree there is a change.

On 1.3, if you attempt a moving drop in an area that's completely occupied, the dropped baneling will deflect to the nearest open point, up to a certain distance. The maximum deflection distance seems to be about 1.5 times the diameter of a forcefield. If there is no open space within the deflection range, it would drop even in areas occupied by units.

On 1.4, if there are no open spaces within the deflection range, the unit is simply not dropped.

In practice, this means you can defend baneling drops by forcefield-donuting your own army, but the risk of doing so is great. The slightest opening will draw most of the banelings in, and it's quite difficult to donut yourself if your army contains any colossus or archons. Also, if there are any infestors in the zerg army, it's obviously suicide.


Thank you. Best post in the last few pages.
Kazeyonoma
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2912 Posts
September 14 2011 00:29 GMT
#355
do you understand what the word trolling means usethis2? wow
I now have autographs of both BoxeR and NaDa. I can die happy. Lim Yo Hwan and Lee Yun Yeol FIGHTING forever!
TissTuss
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden33 Posts
September 14 2011 00:58 GMT
#356
So protoss is doing bad atm. Blizzards solution is nerf zergs three ways to deal with the *a* moving deathball by nerfing fungal, baneling drops and NP all at the same time. While terran (the most winning race) have thiere ghosts untouched. It really feels like blizzard dont give a fuck and have no reasoing behind thiere changes. When zerg had the deathball problems with the roach/hydra/corr the responds was *zerg needs to evolve* guess they want protoss players to keep *a* moving to victory. Nice blizzard, nice.

User was warned for this post
usethis2
Profile Joined December 2010
2164 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 01:16:16
September 14 2011 01:15 GMT
#357
On September 14 2011 09:58 TissTuss wrote:
So protoss is doing bad atm. Blizzards solution is nerf zergs three ways to deal with the *a* moving deathball by nerfing fungal, baneling drops and NP all at the same time. While terran (the most winning race) have thiere ghosts untouched. It really feels like blizzard dont give a fuck and have no reasoing behind thiere changes. When zerg had the deathball problems with the roach/hydra/corr the responds was *zerg needs to evolve* guess they want protoss players to keep *a* moving to victory. Nice blizzard, nice.

As I have mentioned above, I don't think that's the proper way to look at this specific "bug fix". Fungal nerf (absolutely necessary) and neural nerf (somewhat dubious) were, I know zergs don't like them, legitimate ways of balancing the racial power in my eyes. (Though I as a toss would much rather take templar speed increase to 2.25 that will be useful in both PvT and PvZ than neural nerf that is marginally helpful to toss but kills the spectators' excitement)

But the drop "bug fix", in both the way it's implemented and the timing of it (Blizzard have known about baneling drops since Fruitdealer's amazing run in the first GSL), is kind of strange and just feels wrong. I already have exampled above how blizzard did try (and failed) to nerf zerg's unit production by disabling the game's interface/mechanism instead of addressing units, techs, maps, or what not. This drop bug fix looks suspiciously similar to that and I can't support this change until Blizzard's honest explanation.
Raid
Profile Joined September 2010
United States398 Posts
September 14 2011 01:17 GMT
#358
On September 13 2011 02:05 Olsson wrote:
Great. Two things viable against protoss deathball:

Fungal: Nerfed but will still be decent.

Baneling Rain: Completely nullified and worthless now.


The fungal nerf was not for protoss army it was specifically for marine medivac healing because lololol 2 fungals bye bye marines and damage exceeded medivac healing was pretty stupid. at least 5 or 6 marines will survive now. Someone did a test that if you chain fungal it takes the same amount of fungal to destroy all toss units..

usethis2
Profile Joined December 2010
2164 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 01:28:07
September 14 2011 01:26 GMT
#359
On September 14 2011 10:17 Raid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 02:05 Olsson wrote:
Great. Two things viable against protoss deathball:

Fungal: Nerfed but will still be decent.

Baneling Rain: Completely nullified and worthless now.


The fungal nerf was not for protoss army it was specifically for marine medivac healing because lololol 2 fungals bye bye marines and damage exceeded medivac healing was pretty stupid. at least 5 or 6 marines will survive now. Someone did a test that if you chain fungal it takes the same amount of fungal to destroy all toss units..


Incorrect. David kim addressed in the "chat with the Korean pros" that it was meant to help toss. (1 more fungal v. Stalkers, 2 more v. Void Rays) I think if a zerg can perfectly time fungals without an overlap (which I honestly think is near impossibility) then maybe stalkers might die to the same number of fungals.
ch4ppi
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany802 Posts
September 14 2011 01:26 GMT
#360
On September 14 2011 10:17 Raid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 02:05 Olsson wrote:
Great. Two things viable against protoss deathball:

Fungal: Nerfed but will still be decent.

Baneling Rain: Completely nullified and worthless now.


The fungal nerf was not for protoss army it was specifically for marine medivac healing because lololol 2 fungals bye bye marines and damage exceeded medivac healing was pretty stupid. at least 5 or 6 marines will survive now. Someone did a test that if you chain fungal it takes the same amount of fungal to destroy all toss units..



This post is a total fail.
Marines will die as they did before. Get your numbers right.
The change is especially for ZvP, and again your nr. are wrong. The reason why Fungal was kinda OP against Toss is that Fungal was effectiv against the big hitters, too. The dmg change doesnt change the nr. of fungals that are needed for their "supposed" targets, only for the big hitters
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