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Code S might be losing entertainment value. - Page 9

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Sated
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
England4983 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-07 22:00:15
September 07 2011 21:59 GMT
#161
--- Nuked ---
Brainling
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States660 Posts
September 07 2011 21:59 GMT
#162
On September 08 2011 06:56 Jakkerr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2011 06:45 Zanno wrote:
On September 08 2011 06:42 Blazinghand wrote:
On September 08 2011 06:40 Zanno wrote:
On September 08 2011 06:29 Mohdoo wrote:
On September 08 2011 06:25 Zanno wrote:
i don't understand all the hate for TvT

it's the only matchup at the moment that plays like a proper starcraft match, although TvZ is getting close

Lol "proper". Give me a break. Call it what you want, but any mirror has half the unit diversity of a non-mirror matchup. Not to mention that terran games are generally the most boring to watch. Hellions are perhaps the only sort of exciting thing tvt had going for it. Slow tank contains and viking wars are something I don't even consider worth watching.

1) there's real defenders advantage and lots of positional play
2) comebacks are possible and frequent, compared to something like PvP where it's like "oh i lost two extra stalkers gg"
3) TvT is really the only matchup where every single unit is useful at some phase in the game, except for perhaps reapers, but even nada killed someone with mass reapers once so who knows. pure bio is falling out of favor but not completely and i think will ultimately turn into a map dependent thing

compare that to TvP where unless you do one of the many forms of tank allins, all you really do is a-move marauders and micro a few things that support marauders


I think all the matchups have merit, actually. PvP, for example, is so intense and micro-oriented that it's riveting. Watching Huk v Killer had me glued to the edge of my seat sweating like a fish for the entire game! TvT is very positional, but watching the mechanics and tactics fly around in the other matchups is entertaining as well

my take on PvP is it's like a warcraft 3 match that ends in 10 minutes on account of things actually die

there's certainly a skill to it, but the current state of TvT resembles a game of brood war more than any of the other matchups, and as someone who's been following the scene on and off since flash was just that kid who cheesed bisu out, i find it to be the most entertaining matchup


If you can explain to me in what way it's entertaining to stare at siege tanks for 30+ minutes, that would be much appreciated because I still don't get it.


Not every TvT is the 90 minute Boxer super stamina, killed all my SCV's, having 15 CC's to use just mules, staring at each other at map center, stalemate.

Rarely do you actually sit and stare at siege tanks for 30 minutes. In a GOOD TvT, there will be an element of positioning (the tank lines you talk about) + drops + flanks around those lines, etc.

I understand an over-emphasis on TvT can get boring, in the mental repetitive stress injury sort of way...but the hyperbole that every TvT is a 30 minute tank stand off is just that...hyperbole.
"The welfare of each of us is dependent fundamentally upon the welfare of all of us." - Theodore Roosevelt
Netsky
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia1155 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-07 22:00:39
September 07 2011 21:59 GMT
#163
GSL is what it is - the highest skilled tournament in the world bar none. I think it will remain this way for quite some time until we start to see more Korean leagues start up. I still watch it alot and think it's awesome.

Something I would like to change is the Ro32 format...Bo1 isn't the best idea for a tournament of this level.

Thanks to all the balance whiners for turning this thread in crying btw - good job.
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
September 07 2011 21:59 GMT
#164
The super tournament had some of the worst matches for a gsl caliber tournament. I much prefer the smaller, more elite code S system than a big free for all.

Much to the same degree that in MLG, they focus broadcasts on pool play, instead of the open bracket. Maybe you'll find a gem in the rough, but 98% of those matches won't be worth watching over the obviously more prestigious ones.
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
2plusthree
Profile Joined February 2011
Russian Federation43 Posts
September 07 2011 22:00 GMT
#165
I think GSL should definitely have a re-stream for NA viewers...
icarly
Profile Joined August 2011
United States400 Posts
September 07 2011 22:00 GMT
#166
gold players and players that don't enjoy high skill matches are the only one's complaining.

TvT has the highest skillcap of the mirror matchups by far.

MvP, Bomber, Nada, Polt, Top, Ryung-- these guys are legitimately good and better players-- mechanics, decision making, macro/micro-- then most players of the other races. Terran attracts more players and always will-- as does the human race in every other rts game.

Players think 30 minute games are "boring", when they ignore the fact that the longer the game goes on the higher the chance the better player wins. 10 minute pvps may be exciting to some people but it is such a coinflip matchup that anyone can win. Naniwa/Huk/Mana can probably take series off any KR Protoss in the world.

I highly doubt the same can be said for MvP, Bomber, Ryung in regards to facing foreign Terrans.
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
September 07 2011 22:01 GMT
#167
On September 08 2011 06:58 TheButtonmen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2011 06:29 Blazinghand wrote:
On September 08 2011 06:23 TheButtonmen wrote:
A lot of the problems I think with GSL code S is Goms structure for group selection is flawed, yes it's fun to watch player chose groups / taunt each other but every single season you get 1 half the bracket completely stacked and the other having 1 or 2 clear winners.

Randomize the groups and I think the overall tournament would improve.


Or even seed the groups based on previous player performance, guaranteeing high-quality games as the tournament progresses, and having some more closely-matched finals games. This would definitely do more to shake things up than bringing in people through an alternative qualification scheme.


Like 1vs32 at one end of the bracket and 2vs31 and the far end?


Not quite, but sort of. I'd maintain the current group play minitournament thing because that's baller, but seeding of "what tournament do you go into" would be done, and then another round of seeding coming out of group play, of course. If there are any stompfests they'd happen in group play, and the tournament itself will be excellent.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
MCMXVI
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway1193 Posts
September 07 2011 22:01 GMT
#168
On September 08 2011 06:09 Hybris wrote:
As a protoss player, I have lost alot of interest due to the severe lack of protoss players in code s. I still watch those protoss players religiously though.

QFT! I'll pay to watch Code A september, but if it turns out to be dominated by terrans again even if they are in the minority, I won't come back to watch any GSL for a while...
In capitalist America, bank robs YOU!
illsick
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1770 Posts
September 07 2011 22:02 GMT
#169
On September 08 2011 06:48 Kazeyonoma wrote:
something that confuses me about threads like this is that where are the stats that prove this?

Also, TvT's are apparently awful, but they provide everything everyone complains for. longer games, strategic games, drop play, multiple engagements, varying strategies. non-all ins. macro play, with some cheesy play mixed in. How many TvT's have you seen this GSL that followed the exact same build.

How many games have you watched of PvP's that came down to who 4gated better.
or ZvZ on who ling/baned better or who got roaches first.

TvT is one of the few mirror matchups that has a constantly evolving meta game, yet people constantly complain about it.

Sure, of course, TvZ would be awesome to watch, and we do get to see it often, but mirror matches are inevitable. Telling gomtv to somehow not have so many TvT's is kinda stupid. Yes, i know, Protoss is in a bad spot right now, losing to both T 1/1/1's and Z current metagame, but how long did P suffer in BW before Bisu came along and revolutionized the game? I mean, it's weird to me to hear about "getting boring" after just a handful of GSLs. Yes the finals haven't been amazing, but is that Gom's fault? I feel like changing the format won't suddenly make it better.

Players getting stomped by players who are entire tiers better than them are why the finals haven't been as exciting right? How is adding in randoms from an open bracket going to make this more fun? Because occassionally we'll see our favorite heroes get cheesed out by some random unknown?

I love MLG, i Love GSL, i watch both religiously. I fail to see how GSL has declined in it's watchability. Mvp doing as well as he has without relying on 1/1/1 has only made this final even more fun to watch as he takes on Top the underdog who is trying to prove himself to the world.

So can people elaborate why TvT is so boring to watch unless it's the fact that players actually don't like long games, and only want to watch their own races?


well it has a lot to do with terrans doing so well, therefore we see a lot of TvT's

If Protoss or Zergs were dominating and taking over the majority, then you will see people complain about PvP or ZvZ.

I enjoy watching high level TvT, the TOP and Polt series was really good.
you live and you learn
1st_Panzer_Div.
Profile Joined November 2010
United States621 Posts
September 07 2011 22:02 GMT
#170
As has been discussed to death, but it's because it's always TvT.

I don't even find all the TvT boring, in fact the code A finals was pretty great. It's just that every freaking game is TvT. Maybe the patch will fix it. and Code S will rocket into pure awesome.

GomTvT
Manager, Team RIP ZeeZ
Towni
Profile Joined July 2010
Austria144 Posts
September 07 2011 22:03 GMT
#171
Really think OP is so right.

The first 3 GSL tours which were OPEN were the most entertaining for me.

Would be really nice if they would set up a new system which could be like a mixture of MLG and Open Tourny.
Devil Trigger
Profile Joined March 2011
United States107 Posts
September 07 2011 22:04 GMT
#172
GSL is pretty fine for me. I'd like a different format for ups/downs. Like have a code a and code s fight for code s spot instead of round robin format, but I guess they can't do that now since code a winner is guarantee spot.

I believe as a fan you should always want good games first. Any other reason is usually homerism and wrong.

A lot of people in here are complaining about TvT. I think the match-up was great when it was bio/siege tanks vs bio/siege tanks, but the current metagame with blue flame hellions makes for bad games. They rely less on skill and more on getting lucky harassing the workers.
BigBadBeaver
Profile Joined August 2009
Canada272 Posts
September 07 2011 22:05 GMT
#173
Personally, I'd rather see code A disappear and bring back the 64 man bracket. Whether its group stage or just straight up knockout format like in GSL 2010, I find code A to be sort of a "minor league" in which viewers don't really care for.
HoldenR
Profile Joined February 2011
Netherlands256 Posts
September 07 2011 22:05 GMT
#174
The first reply got it down right. I watched the round of 4, but I nearly fell asleep when it was polt vs top. I only watched for July vs MVP, which while being pretty much a retarded steamroll and showing exactly why people call ghosts way too good, was still more entertaining.

The next GSL code S is going to have another 20 or so terrans, with 4 or 5 protoss and 6 or 7 zerg. It's just not fun. It wouldn't be fun if each match up was PvP or ZvZ either, but at least those games tend to end more quickly.

And I know balance whining yada yada, but there really are balance problems when 60% of an SC2 tournament exists out of one race. It decreases the entertainment value for spectators, and blizzard needs to step in if they want to keep SC2 in the running as being a serious e-sport. The next patch is not good enough, it only makes hellions a bit less strong. Ghosts, marines, 1/1/1, etc. are not addressed.
Kracklings
Profile Joined March 2011
United States116 Posts
September 07 2011 22:06 GMT
#175
the video quality just sucks. stay yp till 3am to watch that? hardly worth it when other torunies stream very nice quality
TTTTTTTT GRIMMMEEEEE
cpomz
Profile Joined February 2011
United States76 Posts
September 07 2011 22:06 GMT
#176
To be fair - I enjoy watching TvT (Nada vs Puma at MLG comes to mind) because of its change in metagame (korean terrans thinking how to beat other koreans terrrans), but there has to be some racial diversity, or else it just becomes stale. Thats why I have stopped watching GSL 1. because of hours, and 2. because it is a bit stale and too common
common_cider
Profile Joined July 2011
342 Posts
September 07 2011 22:06 GMT
#177
After tonight's up and down macthes there could be 4 protosses in GSL Code S
Never eat at a chinese restraunt located by the pound
BrogMeister
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden22 Posts
September 07 2011 22:06 GMT
#178
Have true league play, everyone vs. everyone, with 64 players two out of three months and then, every 3rd month, put top 16 from the previous 2 months in one tourney, 16-32 in another, and 32-64 have to requalify for the next 3 month run in one gigantic 1024 player bo3 tournament. This will build up storylines.
thatsundowner
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada312 Posts
September 07 2011 22:07 GMT
#179
On September 08 2011 06:59 Sated wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2011 06:55 thatsundowner wrote:
On September 08 2011 06:50 Sated wrote:
1-game series in the groups? Seriously? A 1-game series tells us nothing. Players can win in the most peculiar ways and it can lead to a really unstable up/down system. Best-of-3 matches would be much better, I don't like watching Best-of-1s at all... which is proabably why I'm also not a fan of most team-leagues that use the GSTL format. The EGMC has a better format IMO, even with the 2v2 matches.


The system is supposed to be unstable, it would be even worse if we always have the same 32 players with maybe a few shifting in and out here and there. Don't we all bitch about the pools at MLG and how players like Haypro and incontrol stick around in pools the entire year because of one good tournament and the pool system giving them a decent finish regardless of how well they do? Is there some reason we want GSL to be that way now?

If players want to stay in Code S, they should have to win some games to do it, I don't see why this is all of a sudden a problem

Are you trying to say that you wouldn't have to win games to stay in Code S if a Best of-3 system was used? Erm... Lol?

EDIT: A lot of people bitch about player-retention in pools at MLG.


No, I said you should have to win games to stay in Code S. Currently if you take one game off your group you don't advance, but you don't get knocked down either. Watching the same 32 players each season would be far worse than how it is currently, if you can't do well in your group or during up&down matches then you don't deserve to be in Code S. It should be unstable.
"you're gonna fail" in latin
Krehlmar
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden1149 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-07 22:09:37
September 07 2011 22:08 GMT
#180
I love the GSL, best tournament, best site. No problem here except when my favorites (nestea) get eliminated or when the finals seem to become a snorefest which sadly it has been for ages. The best games are generally produced by the up and down matches or the RO4.

Also to many terrans.

Also don't say these things like they're facts... if you do weakminded people will suddenly start feeling as if something is a sinking ship and you'll get the NASL startup all over again.


EDIT:

I think the topic is a damned bad idea because I'd never enjoy watching any of my favorites get terminated by some new blood scrub, unless it was insanely good but most probably it'd be cheese.
My Comment Doesnt Matter Because No One Reads It
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