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On September 02 2011 11:42 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 11:40 Kaitlin wrote:On September 02 2011 11:34 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 11:30 roymarthyup wrote:
im actually more of a fan of FENIX after hearing what he did
fenix did what needs to be done. if tournaments dont fix dealmaking by changing their rules or how the tournaments are run, then players themselves should use dealmaking to their advantage. fenix told TT1 he would do a deal, then he won the finals because of that advantage, and kept all the money for himself and laughed at TT1
hahahaha. alls fair in love and war boys. kudos to fenix and i support him more as a fan for his brilliant actions. approving of thievery and being proud of it what kind of world do we live in -.- Now that I think about it, don't you pro players try to get in each other's heads all the time ? What if Fenix was simply metagaming his opponent ? wtf are you talking about
Yeah sure bro, Ill split with you!
(Hehehe now he will play terrible, Ill win!)
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On September 02 2011 11:19 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 11:16 epikAnglory wrote:
Lmao if both players agree then the finalists must fucking suck so bad to the point where they are not confident of winning. I doubt this crap is for friendly matches and environment, just both players are insecure in winning.
I couldn't care less if it was illegal or not, but if this is what SC2 finalists are doing then I am disappointed. Gamble $5000? Excuse me what that is what a tournament is for, you reward the better player, AKA the championship of the tournament, not the finalists. Sorry but this is a competitive environment and if you feel insecure about "gambling", please get out of the professional competition scene. Gambling is different. When it affects the play of the players. We have a problem. When players get involved, it breaks the game entirely. Look at baseball. Baseball nearly died to match fixing because gamblers got a hold of that sport.
Though I do not condone or am happy with the whole deal-making, etc; there still is the question at what point does it become match fixing. There have been several other incidents where people have thrown games with deliberately bad play in prominent tournaments without as much uproar.
In the recent past, we just have to look back to NASL S1 last week where players deliberately played bad so that they did not have to face against open winner. Now, there was no direct money involved (indirectly yes due to probability of advancing being higher) but still the viewers got robbed out of a good game esp in a few much awaited series. If the argument against deal-making is it is not good for the viewers, then that was equally worse. But there wasn't as much hue and cry about it as is about this event.
Also, though I am not 100% confident, I vaguely recall a WCG brood war group where a Korean pro-gamer threw a game deliberately repeatedly to obtain a certain position in his group to avoid some other Korean pro-gamer earlier in the elimination rounds. Isn't deliberately losing there also akin to match-fixing.
The motivation in those cases might be different but in the end the result is similar where a mockery of the game is made. Aren't the other two situations equally bad? This makes me wonder that at what point does some of these things cross a line and become match fixing.
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On September 02 2011 11:43 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 11:39 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:38 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:36 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:34 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:30 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:24 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:22 Kaitlin wrote:On September 02 2011 11:21 OlorinTheWise wrote:On September 02 2011 11:11 Kaitlin wrote:
If players are willing to "make deals", and the winner of the match doesn't matter, as long as they "play their best", what's to stand in the way of earning some side cash by throwing (as a heavily favored player) a match so some gambler and win a bunch of bets and give the player a cut ? If the discrepancy of the prize pool is taken out of the equation, and it's only the "fame" or whatever from winning vs. losing, then why not throw the games for even more cash ? Because taking money to intentionally lose is match fixing, and you will get your ass banned permanently for doing it. >.> It's an entirely different animal than splitting the winnings and playing your best game. Players have been banned from MLG for "deal making". Then I'm following the same line of logic. I'm no longer a fan of pro's who have made deals. So who has done this? That we know? ToD Grubby TT1? ToD, Grubby, TT1, Fenix (reneging on the deal doesn't change the fact that he initially made it), and according to Fayth, the teams Reign, EG, mouz, Dignitas, and SlayerS. Have fun, dude. That is fucking awful. SC2 pro's should feel awful about themselves right now. I bet SlayerS is doing bad in GSTL because they already have there hands in the other teams pockets. I know Frank and Tranqfx of Reign personally, Im gonna go ask them about this. EG Dignitas and mouz are on my shitlist now. Um, note that this takes place between teammates, not between teams. And while you're at it, you should probably stop watching professional SC2 altogether. I probably will. Whats the point? You think splitting is the worst of it? I don't wanna watch a people play like shit intentionally. I want this out of my game completely. The fact that you think splitting automatically leads to shitty play is very telling. Kiwi and Minigun probably split too, by the way. I'd assume most of the poker players do. Wow fuck it then. No point in watching the finals of anything. Even if the finals are outside the team its the same shit. I hope we see a trend from 1st place having a higher prize money then. 1st and 2nd should ahve the same prize money. But the 1st place winner gets benefits only they can use. Trophies, additional press, gift certificates or whatever. Just not hard cash.
You're complaining about people making deals to split the 1st and 2nd prize. So why are you suggesting 1st and 2nd place get the same money?
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On September 02 2011 11:45 Eternalmisfit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 11:19 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:16 epikAnglory wrote:
Lmao if both players agree then the finalists must fucking suck so bad to the point where they are not confident of winning. I doubt this crap is for friendly matches and environment, just both players are insecure in winning.
I couldn't care less if it was illegal or not, but if this is what SC2 finalists are doing then I am disappointed. Gamble $5000? Excuse me what that is what a tournament is for, you reward the better player, AKA the championship of the tournament, not the finalists. Sorry but this is a competitive environment and if you feel insecure about "gambling", please get out of the professional competition scene. Gambling is different. When it affects the play of the players. We have a problem. When players get involved, it breaks the game entirely. Look at baseball. Baseball nearly died to match fixing because gamblers got a hold of that sport. Though I do not condone or am happy with the whole deal-making, etc; there still is the question at what point does it become match fixing. There have been several other incidents where people have thrown games with deliberately bad play in prominent tournaments without as much uproar. In the recent past, we just have to look back to NASL S1 last week where players deliberately played bad so that they did not have to face against open winner. Now, there was no direct money involved (indirectly yes due to probability of advancing being higher) but still the viewers got robbed out of a good game esp in a few much awaited series. If the argument against deal-making is it is not good for the viewers, then that was equally worse. But there wasn't as much hue and cry about it as is about this event. Also, though I am not 100% confident, I vaguely recall a WCG brood war group where a Korean pro-gamer threw a game deliberately repeatedly to obtain a certain position in his group to avoid some other Korean pro-gamer earlier in the elimination rounds. Isn't deliberately losing there also akin to match-fixing. The motivation in those cases might be different but in the end the result is similar where a mockery of the game is made. Aren't the other two situations equally bad? This makes me wonder that at what point does some of these things cross a line and become match fixing.
That's bad tournament design in my opinion. If players are encouraged to lose. Something is wrong and it needs to be fixed.
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On September 02 2011 11:43 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 11:39 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:38 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:36 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:34 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:30 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:24 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:22 Kaitlin wrote:On September 02 2011 11:21 OlorinTheWise wrote:On September 02 2011 11:11 Kaitlin wrote:
If players are willing to "make deals", and the winner of the match doesn't matter, as long as they "play their best", what's to stand in the way of earning some side cash by throwing (as a heavily favored player) a match so some gambler and win a bunch of bets and give the player a cut ? If the discrepancy of the prize pool is taken out of the equation, and it's only the "fame" or whatever from winning vs. losing, then why not throw the games for even more cash ? Because taking money to intentionally lose is match fixing, and you will get your ass banned permanently for doing it. >.> It's an entirely different animal than splitting the winnings and playing your best game. Players have been banned from MLG for "deal making". Then I'm following the same line of logic. I'm no longer a fan of pro's who have made deals. So who has done this? That we know? ToD Grubby TT1? ToD, Grubby, TT1, Fenix (reneging on the deal doesn't change the fact that he initially made it), and according to Fayth, the teams Reign, EG, mouz, Dignitas, and SlayerS. Have fun, dude. That is fucking awful. SC2 pro's should feel awful about themselves right now. I bet SlayerS is doing bad in GSTL because they already have there hands in the other teams pockets. I know Frank and Tranqfx of Reign personally, Im gonna go ask them about this. EG Dignitas and mouz are on my shitlist now. Um, note that this takes place between teammates, not between teams. And while you're at it, you should probably stop watching professional SC2 altogether. I probably will. Whats the point? You think splitting is the worst of it? I don't wanna watch a people play like shit intentionally. I want this out of my game completely. The fact that you think splitting automatically leads to shitty play is very telling. Kiwi and Minigun probably split too, by the way. I'd assume most of the poker players do. Wow fuck it then. No point in watching the finals of anything. Even if the finals are outside the team its the same shit. I hope we see a trend from 1st place having a higher prize money then. 1st and 2nd should ahve the same prize money. But the 1st place winner gets benefits only they can use. Trophies, additional press, gift certificates or whatever. Just not hard cash.
You do realize, that what you are describing, is exactly what happen, if they make a 50/50 deal?
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On September 02 2011 11:45 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 11:43 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:39 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:38 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:36 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:34 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:30 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:24 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:22 Kaitlin wrote:On September 02 2011 11:21 OlorinTheWise wrote:
[quote]
Because taking money to intentionally lose is match fixing, and you will get your ass banned permanently for doing it. >.>
It's an entirely different animal than splitting the winnings and playing your best game. Players have been banned from MLG for "deal making". Then I'm following the same line of logic. I'm no longer a fan of pro's who have made deals. So who has done this? That we know? ToD Grubby TT1? ToD, Grubby, TT1, Fenix (reneging on the deal doesn't change the fact that he initially made it), and according to Fayth, the teams Reign, EG, mouz, Dignitas, and SlayerS. Have fun, dude. That is fucking awful. SC2 pro's should feel awful about themselves right now. I bet SlayerS is doing bad in GSTL because they already have there hands in the other teams pockets. I know Frank and Tranqfx of Reign personally, Im gonna go ask them about this. EG Dignitas and mouz are on my shitlist now. Um, note that this takes place between teammates, not between teams. And while you're at it, you should probably stop watching professional SC2 altogether. I probably will. Whats the point? You think splitting is the worst of it? I don't wanna watch a people play like shit intentionally. I want this out of my game completely. The fact that you think splitting automatically leads to shitty play is very telling. Kiwi and Minigun probably split too, by the way. I'd assume most of the poker players do. Wow fuck it then. No point in watching the finals of anything. Even if the finals are outside the team its the same shit. I hope we see a trend from 1st place having a higher prize money then. 1st and 2nd should ahve the same prize money. But the 1st place winner gets benefits only they can use. Trophies, additional press, gift certificates or whatever. Just not hard cash. You're complaining about people making deals to split the 1st and 2nd prize. So why are you suggesting 1st and 2nd place get the same money?
So that they play fair? 1st place gets more stuff. And no one can use it but the winner. Thereby ensuring that they can't split the true first place prize.
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This thread is devolving into an ego contest, yes it's wrong, but it's not the worst thing that could happen, I remember sjow got caught doing something to this extent back toward the end of last year, it happens off and on in any situation where a lot of money is being thrown around to people who know and play with each, who started this anyway? TT1 in the Fenix joins IM thread? why bring it up now knowing it will cause this shitstorm?
wow that was a long run on sentence lol
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On September 02 2011 11:47 KingPaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 11:43 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:39 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:38 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:36 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:34 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:30 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:24 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:22 Kaitlin wrote:On September 02 2011 11:21 OlorinTheWise wrote:
[quote]
Because taking money to intentionally lose is match fixing, and you will get your ass banned permanently for doing it. >.>
It's an entirely different animal than splitting the winnings and playing your best game. Players have been banned from MLG for "deal making". Then I'm following the same line of logic. I'm no longer a fan of pro's who have made deals. So who has done this? That we know? ToD Grubby TT1? ToD, Grubby, TT1, Fenix (reneging on the deal doesn't change the fact that he initially made it), and according to Fayth, the teams Reign, EG, mouz, Dignitas, and SlayerS. Have fun, dude. That is fucking awful. SC2 pro's should feel awful about themselves right now. I bet SlayerS is doing bad in GSTL because they already have there hands in the other teams pockets. I know Frank and Tranqfx of Reign personally, Im gonna go ask them about this. EG Dignitas and mouz are on my shitlist now. Um, note that this takes place between teammates, not between teams. And while you're at it, you should probably stop watching professional SC2 altogether. I probably will. Whats the point? You think splitting is the worst of it? I don't wanna watch a people play like shit intentionally. I want this out of my game completely. The fact that you think splitting automatically leads to shitty play is very telling. Kiwi and Minigun probably split too, by the way. I'd assume most of the poker players do. Wow fuck it then. No point in watching the finals of anything. Even if the finals are outside the team its the same shit. I hope we see a trend from 1st place having a higher prize money then. 1st and 2nd should ahve the same prize money. But the 1st place winner gets benefits only they can use. Trophies, additional press, gift certificates or whatever. Just not hard cash. You do realize, that what you are describing, is exactly what happen, if they male a 50/50 deal?
OK this is twice now so I guess people are lost. Read my post carefully please. But the 1st place winner gets benefits only they can use.
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On September 02 2011 11:35 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 11:02 billyX333 wrote:On September 02 2011 10:57 DonKey_ wrote:On September 02 2011 10:55 billyX333 wrote:On September 02 2011 10:51 Airship wrote:On September 02 2011 10:50 billyX333 wrote:On September 02 2011 10:49 Airship wrote:On September 02 2011 10:47 billyX333 wrote:
I kind of understand the fear that it will hurt the stakes and hype of the tournament finals, but I disagree.
I've got a question for those who are against this, do you think cash prizes would help basketball or football sporting events? I don't think so. Part of the appeal of college sports is that we can be sure most of them are doing it for the passion for competition because they are amateurs who aren't getting paid salaries. I'd get significantly more emotional for the guy who is tearing up on the main stage because he finally gets a major championship title rather than a sick pay check.
Also, from what I understand, players like huk and idra make significantly more money from salaries than they do from tournament winnings. The value of a championship is not in the prize itself but the glory, fame, marketability, and negotiating leverage a player gets for future teams and sponsors. Even if the prize disparity between 1st and 2nd is significantly reduced behind closed doors, the incentive to win is still there. I'd much rather see emotions running high because of the championship title and not the big cash payout. When TT1 threw his game against Fenix your entire argument was proven invalid and it was proven that it can and has effected play sorry You didn't understand the argument then sorry I understand that you think progamers will play their hearts out regardless of money and that TT1 proved you wrong. I am not missing anything. My primary point is that the incentive to win is there not because of the prizepool. Bringing up a case to the contrary doesn't invalidate any argument. I'm making an argument for what is the case for most progamers. But he provides evidence for his post, when you present none for your own. Evidence for my argument? My argument was that the incentive to win is there regardless of prize pool. Why the fuck would anybody compete in MLG. The only players who will on average net a profit from flying across the globe to MLG would be the 4 koreans put in group play. Everyone else is playing for love for the game, competition, or for sponsors. Just because players like TT1 ignore all incentives except for cash prizes doesn't invalidate any argument. All it does is prove there are idiots out there who don't give a shit about the game or competition. TT1 proved that a long time ago. Thats why TT1 will probably never have fans and that's also why he should go find a new job anyway if all he wants is cash hahaha i dont care about the competition, thats the only reason why i still play this game u think naniwa is a hardcore competitor? just because hes been in the spotlight much longer than me that doesnt mean he has more heart/drive than me, u dont know the half it bro i promise u theres no one in this game that wants to win to more than me, whenever i get knocked out of tournament a i dont even stick around in the tournament area because i feel so ashamed of myself, youve never seen me once i get home after one of my failed mlg runs, i get so fucking depressed that i start thinking my future and whether or not im washed up and should quit playing, u dont know wat goes through my head so pls dont act like u do
well im still a fan of you and every pro gamer brahski. hopefully getting screwed over by fenix helped you in a way. trust no one but urself, destroy
but i guess sc2 pro scene is so damn competitive theres only a few top stars and tons of people wanting to be the best but only a few can bethe best. i dont think its bad to question whether or not youve got the ability to be one of the best or not.
but i dont think personal losses are the best way to determine whether or not you are washed up. i think alot of losses are probably due to metagame. if you lost and think theres nothing you coulda done watching the replay, whos to say the answer might not be out there (due to imbalance) or might be there but no ones found it yet. who knows the truth in those scenarios
IMO the best way to determine if your washed up or not is to watch the tournament winners which are bomber/mvp recently and ask yourself hmmmm do i have the mechanics to copy what he did. can i do what he did in that game assuming i practiced terran for a month and only tried to copy that would i be able to copy it. if the answer is yes then it means he isnt really a "better player" than you he is winning because of superior knowledge of the metagame and decision making which can be worked on. i guess im saying if someone feels they are washed up mechanics wise, they probably SHOULD quit sc2. its a futile dream at that point.
i guess TLDR; if someone truly feels their mechanics are bad they should quit. but otherwise, the dream could still be possible...
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On September 02 2011 11:41 StutteR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 11:40 Kaitlin wrote:On September 02 2011 11:34 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 11:30 roymarthyup wrote:
im actually more of a fan of FENIX after hearing what he did
fenix did what needs to be done. if tournaments dont fix dealmaking by changing their rules or how the tournaments are run, then players themselves should use dealmaking to their advantage. fenix told TT1 he would do a deal, then he won the finals because of that advantage, and kept all the money for himself and laughed at TT1
hahahaha. alls fair in love and war boys. kudos to fenix and i support him more as a fan for his brilliant actions. approving of thievery and being proud of it what kind of world do we live in -.- Now that I think about it, don't you pro players try to get in each other's heads all the time ? What if Fenix was simply metagaming his opponent ? Then he's an even bigger douchebag for doing it that way? You promise a teammate or friend something and you go back on your word so you can beat him? Everyone talking about honor in this thread. lol
I wasn't keeping up on the Fenix - TT1 debate, nor the history of what happened, just figured if this type of thing goes on, and we know mind games goes on, I was linking the two. Now, granted, as teammates, it's a different story, but in general if players are allowed to do whatever they can to psyche out their opponent, who made the rule that lying about prize splitting was off the table ?
Anyways, I have been more interested in the 'general' discussion, not the Fenix - TT1. The people who would have a beef with this would be the tournament and the sponsors, so it's less important what fans or players think. It's what the people who are actually spending money on the tournament think, as they have the legal recourse in enforcing the integrity of the event.
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On September 02 2011 11:47 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 11:45 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 11:43 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:39 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:38 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:36 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:34 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:30 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:24 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:22 Kaitlin wrote:
[quote]
Players have been banned from MLG for "deal making". Then I'm following the same line of logic. I'm no longer a fan of pro's who have made deals. So who has done this? That we know? ToD Grubby TT1? ToD, Grubby, TT1, Fenix (reneging on the deal doesn't change the fact that he initially made it), and according to Fayth, the teams Reign, EG, mouz, Dignitas, and SlayerS. Have fun, dude. That is fucking awful. SC2 pro's should feel awful about themselves right now. I bet SlayerS is doing bad in GSTL because they already have there hands in the other teams pockets. I know Frank and Tranqfx of Reign personally, Im gonna go ask them about this. EG Dignitas and mouz are on my shitlist now. Um, note that this takes place between teammates, not between teams. And while you're at it, you should probably stop watching professional SC2 altogether. I probably will. Whats the point? You think splitting is the worst of it? I don't wanna watch a people play like shit intentionally. I want this out of my game completely. The fact that you think splitting automatically leads to shitty play is very telling. Kiwi and Minigun probably split too, by the way. I'd assume most of the poker players do. Wow fuck it then. No point in watching the finals of anything. Even if the finals are outside the team its the same shit. I hope we see a trend from 1st place having a higher prize money then. 1st and 2nd should ahve the same prize money. But the 1st place winner gets benefits only they can use. Trophies, additional press, gift certificates or whatever. Just not hard cash. You're complaining about people making deals to split the 1st and 2nd prize. So why are you suggesting 1st and 2nd place get the same money? So that they play fair? 1st place gets more stuff. And no one can use it but the winner. Thereby ensuring that they can't split the true first place prize.
How would they not play fair if they chopped?
They already can't split the true first place prize, like sponsors, team deals, trophy, fame etc.
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On September 02 2011 11:34 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 11:30 roymarthyup wrote:
im actually more of a fan of FENIX after hearing what he did
fenix did what needs to be done. if tournaments dont fix dealmaking by changing their rules or how the tournaments are run, then players themselves should use dealmaking to their advantage. fenix told TT1 he would do a deal, then he won the finals because of that advantage, and kept all the money for himself and laughed at TT1
hahahaha. alls fair in love and war boys. kudos to fenix and i support him more as a fan for his brilliant actions. approving of thievery and being proud of it what kind of world do we live in -.-
thievery? TT1 knew his chances of winning against Fenix were like less than 20% and proposed this shit of a deal.
Fenix would have to be stupid to split it with TT1.
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On September 02 2011 10:12 coL.Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:54 aksfjh wrote:On September 02 2011 09:38 coL.Minigun wrote:On September 02 2011 09:33 Kaitlin wrote:
To Fayth and Minigun and any other "pros" that seem to think this is fine:
Do your team sponsors care all ALL about tournament results of the players they are investing in ? Are such results not posted on your team websites, and cited as your "credentials" for such things as providing coaching or doing promotional videos for whatever products your sponsors have?
You guys don't see a problem with SC2 credentials being little more than titles in professional wrestling ? Who says they still aren't trying to win? Just because two players agree to split the winnings, doesn't mean they play bad. If I were to split with a player I was going up against, I would still try my hardest, to get that #1 spot for my team or w/e. You'll play your hardest until you feel beat. There's no desperation factor. Especially if there is no desire to please fans, there will be no resilience in the match. We don't need more Idra games where players leave at the first sign of defeat. 99% of the people would still play their hardest
Probably 50%+ would play better when the money isn't on the line.
It's very easy when you are playing for something important to get an advantage in a game and go "omg I am going to win!" and then play worse because those thoughts come into your head. If you add on top of that the fact that you're playing for an amount that would significantly alter your financial livelihood, it's only going to make it more difficult to play with a clear mind.
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On September 02 2011 11:48 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 11:47 KingPaddy wrote:On September 02 2011 11:43 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:39 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:38 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:36 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:34 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:30 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:24 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:22 Kaitlin wrote:
[quote]
Players have been banned from MLG for "deal making". Then I'm following the same line of logic. I'm no longer a fan of pro's who have made deals. So who has done this? That we know? ToD Grubby TT1? ToD, Grubby, TT1, Fenix (reneging on the deal doesn't change the fact that he initially made it), and according to Fayth, the teams Reign, EG, mouz, Dignitas, and SlayerS. Have fun, dude. That is fucking awful. SC2 pro's should feel awful about themselves right now. I bet SlayerS is doing bad in GSTL because they already have there hands in the other teams pockets. I know Frank and Tranqfx of Reign personally, Im gonna go ask them about this. EG Dignitas and mouz are on my shitlist now. Um, note that this takes place between teammates, not between teams. And while you're at it, you should probably stop watching professional SC2 altogether. I probably will. Whats the point? You think splitting is the worst of it? I don't wanna watch a people play like shit intentionally. I want this out of my game completely. The fact that you think splitting automatically leads to shitty play is very telling. Kiwi and Minigun probably split too, by the way. I'd assume most of the poker players do. Wow fuck it then. No point in watching the finals of anything. Even if the finals are outside the team its the same shit. I hope we see a trend from 1st place having a higher prize money then. 1st and 2nd should ahve the same prize money. But the 1st place winner gets benefits only they can use. Trophies, additional press, gift certificates or whatever. Just not hard cash. You do realize, that what you are describing, is exactly what happen, if they male a 50/50 deal? OK this is twice now so I guess people are lost. Read my post carefully please. But the 1st place winner gets benefits only they can use.
But they actually get trophies, additional press and further benefits only they can use as it is.
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I would say splitting money is not as bad as match fixing. But I don't think it should exist anyway. It would only make a final laugh-worthy, and bring doubt to spectators whether the players play with their full potential or not.
Yes, Fenix was wrong in this case because he did not follow through his deal. But then TT1 has to answer too whether he did a 1-base carrier because of he know that he will get half the money anyway. If because of the prearrangement that made him use 1-base carrier in the first game, then that is even worse than Fenix not followed through his deal because you deceived spectators, no matter how few they are, and not playing to your best or trying to bring a good game.
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On September 02 2011 11:50 ilbh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 11:34 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 11:30 roymarthyup wrote:
im actually more of a fan of FENIX after hearing what he did
fenix did what needs to be done. if tournaments dont fix dealmaking by changing their rules or how the tournaments are run, then players themselves should use dealmaking to their advantage. fenix told TT1 he would do a deal, then he won the finals because of that advantage, and kept all the money for himself and laughed at TT1
hahahaha. alls fair in love and war boys. kudos to fenix and i support him more as a fan for his brilliant actions. approving of thievery and being proud of it what kind of world do we live in -.- thievery? TT1 knew his chances of winning against Fenix were like less than 20% and proposed this shit of a deal. Fenix would have to be stupid to split it with TT1.
This is before the tournament occurred. Before both reached the finals. Fenix agreed to the deal, so did he also think that TT1 was better than him?
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On September 02 2011 11:50 KingPaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 11:48 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:47 KingPaddy wrote:On September 02 2011 11:43 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:39 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:38 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:36 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:34 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:30 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 11:24 Medrea wrote:
[quote]
Then I'm following the same line of logic. I'm no longer a fan of pro's who have made deals.
So who has done this? That we know? ToD Grubby TT1? ToD, Grubby, TT1, Fenix (reneging on the deal doesn't change the fact that he initially made it), and according to Fayth, the teams Reign, EG, mouz, Dignitas, and SlayerS. Have fun, dude. That is fucking awful. SC2 pro's should feel awful about themselves right now. I bet SlayerS is doing bad in GSTL because they already have there hands in the other teams pockets. I know Frank and Tranqfx of Reign personally, Im gonna go ask them about this. EG Dignitas and mouz are on my shitlist now. Um, note that this takes place between teammates, not between teams. And while you're at it, you should probably stop watching professional SC2 altogether. I probably will. Whats the point? You think splitting is the worst of it? I don't wanna watch a people play like shit intentionally. I want this out of my game completely. The fact that you think splitting automatically leads to shitty play is very telling. Kiwi and Minigun probably split too, by the way. I'd assume most of the poker players do. Wow fuck it then. No point in watching the finals of anything. Even if the finals are outside the team its the same shit. I hope we see a trend from 1st place having a higher prize money then. 1st and 2nd should ahve the same prize money. But the 1st place winner gets benefits only they can use. Trophies, additional press, gift certificates or whatever. Just not hard cash. You do realize, that what you are describing, is exactly what happen, if they male a 50/50 deal? OK this is twice now so I guess people are lost. Read my post carefully please. But the 1st place winner gets benefits only they can use. But they actually get trophies, additional press and further benefits only they can use as it is.
Well for smaller tournaments this doesnt always happen, for the larger ones it MUST happen.
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On September 02 2011 11:50 vVvTime wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 10:12 coL.Minigun wrote:On September 02 2011 09:54 aksfjh wrote:On September 02 2011 09:38 coL.Minigun wrote:On September 02 2011 09:33 Kaitlin wrote:
To Fayth and Minigun and any other "pros" that seem to think this is fine:
Do your team sponsors care all ALL about tournament results of the players they are investing in ? Are such results not posted on your team websites, and cited as your "credentials" for such things as providing coaching or doing promotional videos for whatever products your sponsors have?
You guys don't see a problem with SC2 credentials being little more than titles in professional wrestling ? Who says they still aren't trying to win? Just because two players agree to split the winnings, doesn't mean they play bad. If I were to split with a player I was going up against, I would still try my hardest, to get that #1 spot for my team or w/e. You'll play your hardest until you feel beat. There's no desperation factor. Especially if there is no desire to please fans, there will be no resilience in the match. We don't need more Idra games where players leave at the first sign of defeat. 99% of the people would still play their hardest Probably 50%+ would play better when the money isn't on the line. It's very easy when you are playing for something important to get an advantage in a game and go "omg I am going to win!" and then play worse because those thoughts come into your head. If you add on top of that the fact that you're playing for an amount that would significantly alter your financial livelihood, it's only going to make it more difficult to play with a clear mind.
but part of being a good player is having a good mindset to overcome that "stress"
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On September 02 2011 11:46 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 11:45 Eternalmisfit wrote:On September 02 2011 11:19 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 11:16 epikAnglory wrote:
Lmao if both players agree then the finalists must fucking suck so bad to the point where they are not confident of winning. I doubt this crap is for friendly matches and environment, just both players are insecure in winning.
I couldn't care less if it was illegal or not, but if this is what SC2 finalists are doing then I am disappointed. Gamble $5000? Excuse me what that is what a tournament is for, you reward the better player, AKA the championship of the tournament, not the finalists. Sorry but this is a competitive environment and if you feel insecure about "gambling", please get out of the professional competition scene. Gambling is different. When it affects the play of the players. We have a problem. When players get involved, it breaks the game entirely. Look at baseball. Baseball nearly died to match fixing because gamblers got a hold of that sport. Though I do not condone or am happy with the whole deal-making, etc; there still is the question at what point does it become match fixing. There have been several other incidents where people have thrown games with deliberately bad play in prominent tournaments without as much uproar. In the recent past, we just have to look back to NASL S1 last week where players deliberately played bad so that they did not have to face against open winner. Now, there was no direct money involved (indirectly yes due to probability of advancing being higher) but still the viewers got robbed out of a good game esp in a few much awaited series. If the argument against deal-making is it is not good for the viewers, then that was equally worse. But there wasn't as much hue and cry about it as is about this event. Also, though I am not 100% confident, I vaguely recall a WCG brood war group where a Korean pro-gamer threw a game deliberately repeatedly to obtain a certain position in his group to avoid some other Korean pro-gamer earlier in the elimination rounds. Isn't deliberately losing there also akin to match-fixing. The motivation in those cases might be different but in the end the result is similar where a mockery of the game is made. Aren't the other two situations equally bad? This makes me wonder that at what point does some of these things cross a line and become match fixing. That's bad tournament design in my opinion. If players are encouraged to lose. Something is wrong and it needs to be fixed.
It becomes match fixing when someone offers you money or a valuable service to lose and you say, "Yes."
What Stork did in WCG was look at the bracket he would face if he won or lost, and decide that he had a better chance of winning it if he lost that specific match and avoided the better players until later in the tournament. That's just being an intelligent competitor.
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On September 02 2011 11:50 ilbh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 11:34 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 11:30 roymarthyup wrote:
im actually more of a fan of FENIX after hearing what he did
fenix did what needs to be done. if tournaments dont fix dealmaking by changing their rules or how the tournaments are run, then players themselves should use dealmaking to their advantage. fenix told TT1 he would do a deal, then he won the finals because of that advantage, and kept all the money for himself and laughed at TT1
hahahaha. alls fair in love and war boys. kudos to fenix and i support him more as a fan for his brilliant actions. approving of thievery and being proud of it what kind of world do we live in -.- thievery? TT1 knew his chances of winning against Fenix were like less than 20% and proposed this shit of a deal. Fenix would have to be stupid to split it with TT1.
It doesn't matter if TT1 was 1% to win against Fenix. Fenix made a deal and didn't go through with it.
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EPT
