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Currently, Guardian Shield only applies to certain ranged attacks. As liquipedia says on the Guardian Shield page:
The effect is limited to ranged attacks; splash attacks are not subject to the reduction.
Certain units, most notably Colossi and Siege Tanks, completely ignore Guardian Shield.
However, hidden among the new PTR notes (where it is interestingly classified as a bug fix rather than a buff--I guess certain units were never meant to bypass the shield) is this little gem:
Sentry Guardian Shield now correctly reduces damage from Hellion, Void ray, and Colossus attacks as well as the Siege Tank’s sieged attack.
This might seem minor, but it is actually pretty huge in a couple of situations.
First, Zealots and Stalkers with Guardian shield protection will now take 7 Colossi shots to bring down rather than 6. This is pretty substantial, as it means that 3 Colossi (generally considered a critical mass number at which Gateway armies become nearly useless except to shield Colossi, which leads to "War of the Worlds" syndrome in lategame PvP) will no longer 2 shot groups of Zealots and Stalkers.
Second, Guardian shield is the only damage-reducing effect in the game that stacks with The Immortals Hardened Shield. Immortals protected by GS take a maximum of 8 damage per attacks. This means that it now takes Tanks 12 shots to get through the hardened shield rather than 10, and it takes Colossi 6 shots rather than 5.
When combined with its improved range, it should now be considerably easier to get an Immortal close to the P and T siege units in order to bring them down (which was, after all, the role it was designed for).
I believe that this will help enormously with War of the Worlds in PvP, especially now that prism-dropping in your opponent's base is very viable. Opponents will need more Colossi before they hit the critical mass needed to melt Gateway armies, and getting your Immortals close to kill those Colossi will be much easier.
I think it will also help a lot with 1/1/1 in PvT. For all that people bitch about Banshees, there's a reason that 1/1/1's vary hugely in what exact air support units they get (some get Ravens and Banshees, some just Banshees, some Cloakshees), but every single version includes a Siege Tanks. The attack just isn't as scary without it. Now that Siege Tanks deal less damage to Immortals (and the surrounding splash also deals less damage to the Gateway units) and Immortals have longer range, that Tank is a bit less scary.
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Holy crap this is huge. This change could possibly balance a lot of things out.
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Holy crap. This is insane. It is the absolute end of any tank usage against Protoss, combined with the Immortal's 6 range.
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On August 26 2011 00:36 Tommie wrote:
Holy crap. This is insane. It is the absolute end of any tank usage against Protoss, combined with the Immortal's 6 range.
Quite the over-exaggeration, but I do hope my favorite protosses are informed of this right away. Someone should mass PM all pro-toss' (/shades) and let them know!
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Neat find. Even though it's a great ability, it often seems like Guardian Shield takes a backseat to Force Field, and people sort of toggle it on and forget about it instead of making sure key units are getting the effect.
Sentries are so boss.
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On August 26 2011 00:57 Shadico wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 00:36 Tommie wrote:
Holy crap. This is insane. It is the absolute end of any tank usage against Protoss, combined with the Immortal's 6 range. Quite the over-exaggeration, but I do hope my favorite protosses are informed of this right away. Someone should mass PM all pro-toss' (/shades) and let them know!
It's not at all an over-exaggeration.
Immortals murder tanks.
Immortals now murder tanks from 20% longer range.
Immortals now take 20% less damage from tanks when they're accompanied by an innocent little sentry.
That sounds like it should be 40% easier to kill tanks. I'm sure someone who likes math will come in and say it's closer to 32.7838475386%, but I can live with the assumption for now.
BUT THIS IS THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE. Immortals are quite literally an anti-tank unit. It didn't feel right that they weren't as useful as they are on the PTR.
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Holy...that's massive.
I always assumed the splash ignore was intentional. This is the single biggest change in the patch...Immortals will be OP now.
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Wow I wonder how this affects the idea that BFH's are a counter to the Zealot + sentry comp.
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On August 26 2011 01:02 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 00:57 Shadico wrote:On August 26 2011 00:36 Tommie wrote:
Holy crap. This is insane. It is the absolute end of any tank usage against Protoss, combined with the Immortal's 6 range. Quite the over-exaggeration, but I do hope my favorite protosses are informed of this right away. Someone should mass PM all pro-toss' (/shades) and let them know! It's not at all an over-exaggeration. Immortals murder tanks. Immortals now murder tanks from 20% longer range. Immortals now take 20% less damage from tanks when they're accompanied by an innocent little sentry. That sounds like it should be 40% easier to kill tanks. I'm sure someone who likes math will come in and say it's closer to 32.7838475386%, but I can live with the assumption for now. BUT THIS IS THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE. Immortals are quite literally an anti-tank unit. It didn't feel right that they weren't as useful as they are on the PTR.
Yeh math isn't you  . The overall effect is less than 20%...
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Wow I wonder how this affects the idea that BFH's are a counter to the Zealot + sentry comp.
BFHs now deal only 3 more damage to GSed Zealots than RFHs did pre-patch. Thats pretty huge, actually. I mean, I still wouldn't recommend intentionally going Zealot-Sentry vs. a Hellion build, but if you do you'll be taking 7 less damage per shot than you would have before..
Previously, a BFH Hellion would kill a Zealot in 7 shots. Now it would take them 10 if GS is up. Thats a 43% increase in survivability.
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On August 26 2011 01:14 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 01:02 Chargelot wrote:On August 26 2011 00:57 Shadico wrote:On August 26 2011 00:36 Tommie wrote:
Holy crap. This is insane. It is the absolute end of any tank usage against Protoss, combined with the Immortal's 6 range. Quite the over-exaggeration, but I do hope my favorite protosses are informed of this right away. Someone should mass PM all pro-toss' (/shades) and let them know! It's not at all an over-exaggeration. Immortals murder tanks. Immortals now murder tanks from 20% longer range. Immortals now take 20% less damage from tanks when they're accompanied by an innocent little sentry. That sounds like it should be 40% easier to kill tanks. I'm sure someone who likes math will come in and say it's closer to 32.7838475386%, but I can live with the assumption for now. BUT THIS IS THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE. Immortals are quite literally an anti-tank unit. It didn't feel right that they weren't as useful as they are on the PTR. Yeh math isn't you . The overall effect is less than 20%...
In a one on one (save the sentry providing guardian shield, lets say he doesn't get to attack), controlled and calculable environment, please explain how the effects of both 20% longer range and 20% less incoming damage equates to less than a 20% increase in combat efficiency.
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Wow, I'm interested in seeing how this changes TvP.
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On August 26 2011 01:02 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 00:57 Shadico wrote:On August 26 2011 00:36 Tommie wrote:
Holy crap. This is insane. It is the absolute end of any tank usage against Protoss, combined with the Immortal's 6 range. Quite the over-exaggeration, but I do hope my favorite protosses are informed of this right away. Someone should mass PM all pro-toss' (/shades) and let them know! It's not at all an over-exaggeration. Immortals murder tanks. Immortals now murder tanks from 20% longer range. Immortals now take 20% less damage from tanks when they're accompanied by an innocent little sentry. That sounds like it should be 40% easier to kill tanks. I'm sure someone who likes math will come in and say it's closer to 32.7838475386%, but I can live with the assumption for now. BUT THIS IS THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE. Immortals are quite literally an anti-tank unit. It didn't feel right that they weren't as useful as they are on the PTR.
I would guess that the guardian shield modification to the damage would be calculated first, then the resulting damage would be capped at 10. So immortals with shields up wouldn't gain anything from the guardian shield.
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On August 26 2011 01:19 Ryalnos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 01:02 Chargelot wrote:On August 26 2011 00:57 Shadico wrote:On August 26 2011 00:36 Tommie wrote:
Holy crap. This is insane. It is the absolute end of any tank usage against Protoss, combined with the Immortal's 6 range. Quite the over-exaggeration, but I do hope my favorite protosses are informed of this right away. Someone should mass PM all pro-toss' (/shades) and let them know! It's not at all an over-exaggeration. Immortals murder tanks. Immortals now murder tanks from 20% longer range. Immortals now take 20% less damage from tanks when they're accompanied by an innocent little sentry. That sounds like it should be 40% easier to kill tanks. I'm sure someone who likes math will come in and say it's closer to 32.7838475386%, but I can live with the assumption for now. BUT THIS IS THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE. Immortals are quite literally an anti-tank unit. It didn't feel right that they weren't as useful as they are on the PTR. I would guess that the guardian shield modification to the damage would be calculated first, then the resulting damage would be capped at 10. So immortals with shields up wouldn't gain anything from the guardian shield.
then you are guessing wrong
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Why does blizz hate mech so much? Double BF nerf and nerf to tanks vs toss. I don't want to MMM every single game.
Time to go mass ghost/BC then. <___<
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I would guess that the guardian shield modification to the damage would be calculated first, then the resulting damage would be capped at 10. So immortals with shields up wouldn't gain anything from the guardian shield.
You would guess wrong. GS, unlike every other damage reducing effect in the game, stacks with Hardened Shield. So HS + GS caps damage at 8.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Hardened_Shield
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On August 26 2011 01:02 Chargelot wrote:
It's not at all an over-exaggeration.
Immortals murder tanks.
Immortals now murder tanks from 20% longer range.
Immortals now take 20% less damage from tanks when they're accompanied by an innocent little sentry.
That sounds like it should be 40% easier to kill tanks..
Terrans above wood league have been known to not order their sieged tanks to focus down immortals with full shields.
The Guardian Shield working on Tank Splash though is indeed very nice in general and will probably help more against 1-1-1 than some might believe. Basically every tank shot will deal about 10 dmg less (~5 times splash dmg reduced by 2) in total per shot, if GS is up.
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Oh my, this is pretty huge... Good job man, really interesting find.
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This is really really good for PvP, War of the Worlds is gonna die with this + it already being weak to stargate tech + 4gate being nerfed yet again + immortals being better + warp prisms being better. All that is such a huge nerf to collo in pvp.
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I just told my buddy about this and I think he peed himself with joy. He loves Guardian Shield, but it always angered him that a lot of units ignored it.
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Good news. I like that it is a bug fix and not a balance change.
I am happy with all the fixes and will use the time I'm not making collosus to make warp prisms ;p
Another "bug fix" was that neural parasited units now retain their weapon upgrades.
NP is better now too.
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On August 26 2011 01:39 ComaDose wrote:
Good news. I like that it is a bug fix and not a balance change.
I am happy with all the fixes and will use the time I'm not making collosus to make warp prisms ;p
Another "bug fix" was that neural parasited units now retain their weapon upgrades.
NP is better now too.
As if NP wasn't awesome already. It's my favorite ability in the game, by far. It can so hilariously swing a battle so quickly. It's not useful against every comp (especially low cost, high mass, unit comps), but man when it's useful it's great.
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This is really really good for PvP, War of the Worlds is gonna die with this + it already being weak to stargate tech + 4gate being nerfed yet again + immortals being better + warp prisms being better. All that is such a huge nerf to collo in pvp.
I wonder if we'll see more Immortal drops to snipe Colossi. Especially now that GS effects them, a single Colossus really isn't that scary even in PvP, it takes at least a couple to start really melting Gateway armies.
If one player is teching Colossus and one isn't. Say both players gets a robo, but one gotes for a Colossus and one doesn't. There is a 65 second while the robo bay is built, then another 75 for the first Colossus (more like 45 with CB). After the bay goes up they'll start researching Thermal Lance, which is more like 95 with Chrono. So basically, in addition to trying up a huge amount of resources, there is a 160 second+ window depending on exact CB expenditure from when that player starts teching Colossi, to when they'll have 2 Colossi and Extended Lance will be finishing (the danger zone).
Well, an Immortal takes 55 seconds (36 with CB). Warp Prisms take 50 (33 with CB). Two Immortals and a Prism, CBed out, will take 105 seconds. They will appear, therefore, when one Colossus is on the field, but both the 2nd Colossus and the Lance upgrade are nearly a minute away from completion.
With the Warp Prisms' buffed health, it might therefore be feasible to load it up with two Immortals and try to snipe the Colossus in your opponent's base. Two Immortals deal 100 damage a shot to Colossi, which can be scary as hell to deal with, especially if the dropping player has good prism micro.
I mean, not that this strat hasn't always been available in a way. But Warp Prisms have always been so flimsy that a bare minimum of Stalkers was always sufficient to hold them off, and with Immortals so slow and short-ranged you had to fly in close. I wonder though, now with the longer range and the greater shields of the prism, if it might be more viable.
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On August 26 2011 01:18 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 01:14 Hider wrote:On August 26 2011 01:02 Chargelot wrote:On August 26 2011 00:57 Shadico wrote:On August 26 2011 00:36 Tommie wrote:
Holy crap. This is insane. It is the absolute end of any tank usage against Protoss, combined with the Immortal's 6 range. Quite the over-exaggeration, but I do hope my favorite protosses are informed of this right away. Someone should mass PM all pro-toss' (/shades) and let them know! It's not at all an over-exaggeration. Immortals murder tanks. Immortals now murder tanks from 20% longer range. Immortals now take 20% less damage from tanks when they're accompanied by an innocent little sentry. That sounds like it should be 40% easier to kill tanks. I'm sure someone who likes math will come in and say it's closer to 32.7838475386%, but I can live with the assumption for now. BUT THIS IS THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE. Immortals are quite literally an anti-tank unit. It didn't feel right that they weren't as useful as they are on the PTR. Yeh math isn't you . The overall effect is less than 20%... In a one on one (save the sentry providing guardian shield, lets say he doesn't get to attack), controlled and calculable environment, please explain how the effects of both 20% longer range and 20% less incoming damage equates to less than a 20% increase in combat efficiency.
You can't just add up percentages of completely different values and claim that the result somehow reflects what most people would consider 'combat efficiency'.
First you have to make sure you know what you want to calculate.
You could start with a practical definition, like, how many tanks you need to kill an immortal and how much hitpoints the survivors have.Then you can look at the shots needed to kill, the firing rate, and start calculating, or rather simulating, since there is other stuff that was not even taken into consideration, i.e. movement speeds vs tank ranges, typical battle situations etc..
Just adding up 20% from this and 20% from that will not tell you anything.
In the same vein I could claim that with blink needing about 30% seconds more buildtime plus BFH's doing 50% less bonus damage, the game will be 80% more balanced.
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On August 26 2011 01:02 Chargelot wrote:
Immortals now take 20% less damage from tanks when they're accompanied by an innocent little sentry.
You're pretty optimistic that said little sentry won't just get targeted and obliterated by those tanks.
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this kinda makes you think (as a protoss)... if guardian shield had worked like this to start with, how many close battles over SC2's life could you have scraped a win
just food for thought is all
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dose this affect banes as well? or where they already effected by GS? even if they are i think it would still be negligible
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On August 26 2011 01:02 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 00:57 Shadico wrote:On August 26 2011 00:36 Tommie wrote:
Holy crap. This is insane. It is the absolute end of any tank usage against Protoss, combined with the Immortal's 6 range. Quite the over-exaggeration, but I do hope my favorite protosses are informed of this right away. Someone should mass PM all pro-toss' (/shades) and let them know! It's not at all an over-exaggeration. Immortals murder tanks. Immortals now murder tanks from 20% longer range. Immortals now take 20% less damage from tanks when they're accompanied by an innocent little sentry. That sounds like it should be 40% easier to kill tanks. I'm sure someone who likes math will come in and say it's closer to 32.7838475386%, but I can live with the assumption for now. BUT THIS IS THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE. Immortals are quite literally an anti-tank unit. It didn't feel right that they weren't as useful as they are on the PTR.
Um, yes it is an exagerration. Your entire argument hinges on the tanks target-firing the immortals.
Every time a unit is nerfed, there are 1,000 forum posts claiming the unit will never be used again in X matchup. It never turns out to be true. You would think people would learn...
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Great, mech will never be viable against P 
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On August 26 2011 01:02 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 00:57 Shadico wrote:On August 26 2011 00:36 Tommie wrote:
Holy crap. This is insane. It is the absolute end of any tank usage against Protoss, combined with the Immortal's 6 range. Quite the over-exaggeration, but I do hope my favorite protosses are informed of this right away. Someone should mass PM all pro-toss' (/shades) and let them know! It's not at all an over-exaggeration. Immortals murder tanks. Immortals now murder tanks from 20% longer range. Immortals now take 20% less damage from tanks when they're accompanied by an innocent little sentry. That sounds like it should be 40% easier to kill tanks. I'm sure someone who likes math will come in and say it's closer to 32.7838475386%, but I can live with the assumption for now. BUT THIS IS THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE. Immortals are quite literally an anti-tank unit. It didn't feel right that they weren't as useful as they are on the PTR.
Your assumption is true if Terran has only Tanks and nothing else. How often do we see that?
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Wow this is very good to know. Makes sense, good fix.
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On August 26 2011 06:17 GypsyBeast wrote:
dose this affect banes as well? or where they already effected by GS? even if they are i think it would still be negligible
Not a ranged attack. I don't think the explosion would be considered with Guardian Shield.
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Very hard to cover your Zealots with Guardian shield in the mid to late game in PvP
The Tank vs Immortal thing will be interesting though
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I guess with the immortal buff, this should be more than enough to fix 1-1-1?
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On August 26 2011 00:57 Shadico wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 00:36 Tommie wrote:
Holy crap. This is insane. It is the absolute end of any tank usage against Protoss, combined with the Immortal's 6 range. Quite the over-exaggeration, but I do hope my favorite protosses are informed of this right away. Someone should mass PM all pro-toss' (/shades) and let them know!
The word shall be spread among all brotoss.
I played a game against T on Xel'Naga just yesterday and looking back I wanna say that with a more range immortal and a working gs against tanks I should have held the 1/1/1. This patch may just be what toss needed.
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As if terrans werent already forced into one single build (rax units w/ ghosts) now tanks are going to be completely useless and along with the BFH nerf, there is really no use for mech in a TvP. /Sigh, not a fan of this new patch, TvP was my worst matchup anyways....
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mech is not going to change that much. immortals already rapes it if you dont emp well and manually target tank fire.
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EPT
