|
Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 23 2011 10:02 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 09:58 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 09:55 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 23 2011 09:47 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 09:41 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 23 2011 09:37 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 09:31 IVN wrote:On August 23 2011 09:21 aksfjh wrote:On August 23 2011 09:14 IVN wrote:On August 23 2011 08:59 Yaotzin wrote:
[quote]
They may well be imba at the point where making more workers isn't useful anymore. They aren't before that though, at least not noticeably, and most importantly they have very little bearing on the push this thread is about. This push happens when making more workers is still very good. MC lost game 1 despite having like 10 more workers the whole time. That's better than a mule. Ergo the issue ain't the mule. You are wrong. Look at this screen shot. It's from the 1st MC v Puma game on XNC. ![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/img/mulesxrv7.jpg) Full saturation at 5:50. Push begins at 9. And I've counted. He has used additional 3 MULEs before the push. How much is that? 3 * 270 minerals? Equals 16 marines.Now imagine those 3 MULEs could only bring only a 1/2 or a 1/4 of minerals back, because the mineral line is already saturated and they have to wait on SCVs to finish mining. Suddenly the 111 push becomes easily holdable, assuming you scout it and you are not playing stupidly greedy. And now, suddenly Terran can't hold off a 4 gate, baneling bust, or even a 3 gate pressure expand. This mule nonsense is horrendously shortsighted and doesn't seem to take into account ANYTHING other than this stupid "1-1-1" timing. I'm sorry, but it does take into account. When is the last time you saw a terran die to a 4gt? I cant seem to remember seeing that in like ages. Maybe its time that an all in from protoss is actually able to kill a terran if he isnt prepared. I can cite many of my ladder matches where 5-gates, 4-gates, void allins, baneling busts, blink allins, and other allins that I may have forgotten have caused me a loss because I simply did not have the necessary amount of units. The difference is I analyze where I cut corners and played greedy. I do not make ridiculous balance suggestions because I want to be able to cut more corners. This isn't about your play. I'm going to just make an assumption which is something I hate to do, but I'm going to go ahead and say that your macro pales in comparison to that of a professional gamer. Therefore, citing examples from YOUR GAMES does absolutely no good in balance discussion. You completely missed the point of my post. My macro ability has almost no relevance when I am getting allin'd. I'm saying that protoss players should stop suggesting balance changes to each other and start suggesting more safe builds to each other. It does have relevance, as even in the early game, especially as Terran, even waiting 1-2 game seconds to start your next unit has drastic repercussions when responding to an all-in and then complaining about not having enough units. So why are we not analyzing the perfection of macro for all high level protoss players before and during the push? We just assume it was perfect. I thought you didn't like to assume! -_- I haven't seen any point where people say "MC's macro was perfect" or "PuMa's macro slipped" as the excuse for success/failure. I'm going to go ahead and say that it's pretty widely accepted that results from JoeForumer's ladder games have no place in Balance Discussion.
Well MC's macro leading up to the push or during the push was never called into question, so why don't we look at that before suggesting balance changes? Btw, you're still not getting the point at all about my citing of ladder games. Just a side note.
|
Can we just get over it already ? MC lost....did anyone consider that just maybe Puma had better micro? or that MC just made poor decisions?
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Also every time I've seen a toss successfully stop 1-1-1 all in they rushed out to meet the army as it was pushing out to whittle it down, snipe tanks and/or banshees and stall it. Any push with siege tanks in it can be slowed down tremendously with pokes forcing them to siege and unsiege AND possibly blow their PDD before they get to the front of your base...
The key to beating this build is just micro and proper decision making..
Also MC was actually close to holding off the push in the first game. he had all the tanks dead and just marines in his base, but Puma's micro with those last dozen marines or so was sick good - he just cornered MC's army and didn't allow him to build up a few more units to win the battle.
IMO MC just got outplayed in those games. Instead of crying about balance people should just try play better...or at least think about an actual solution/counter.
You have to outplay your opponent to win in this game. and those who think Puma just did a build and 1-a'd across the map are ignorant or just heavily biased.
|
On August 22 2011 21:53 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 21:49 jinixxx123 wrote:On August 22 2011 21:26 Dusen wrote:
the original 1/1/1 build marine,marauder, tank and medivac is countered so hard by like 5 phoenixs.
1 gate exp, into stargate and add on more gates.
The problem is the new style with the raven and banshee, witch is at this moment impossible to counter.
no , just no, from since the sc2 beta i used to do mass marine/tank/raven/banshee all in.. This is absolutely nothing new from terran. I am trying to remember what exactly caused terrans to stop doing it but i quite honestly cant remember. I know personally the reason i stopped doing it was because of extremely fast colosus rushes back in the day, but nowdays protoss's seem to rely on mass gateway units instead of fast colosus. So thats why their is a resurgence of this build. i want to see more protoss get colos faster when they see bunker go up, all the whining will stop The problem with your theory is that Terran players already figured out how to crush 1 Base Colossus with this build: Bunker/Siege up and just contain you to 1 Base in a war of attrition that you will ALWAYS inevitably lose.
Damn, Virgil ... You are very upset about the Calldown: MULE, lol.
Reigning things in a bit
I think the mods are indicating that they'd like to see discussion about solutions as opposed to play "name that nerf!" There is a whine thread for that now (which I love, lol, so trollish, and when you're sellin' ads, why not make such a alluring impression magnet?).
I don't main as Toss, but I know that a solid 3gate + stargate will annihilate most Terran tech builds. The thing that sucks so bad in these types of discussions is that it is far too easy to say, "Well, if I do (a) to counter (b) then he will just change his play to something that beats (b)," and it just goes on and on, but what you're actually doing is just describing the game of Starcraft 2.
It's like baseball, best of seven, baby!
The ladder is best of one, but the game is very obviously a series game. No serious matches are best of ones versus random players. Sure, lots of qualifiers and lower level matches are Bo1's, but none of the games that matter are.
If you're laddering, part of the game design ins SC2 is that you could be facing a VERY specific all-in designed to kill you in a big way and if you don't know the exact thing to do, you die. It's a very volatile game and the volatility just gets worse the better you get.
MC literally looked unbeatable for a while there. His variety of all-ins were so strong that everyone just shook there had thinking, "imbaimbaimba," but somewhere along the line his pride, or his PR manager said, "You gotta build a Nexus and let it finish, man."
There are lots of all-ins. Lots. If you don't know how to react, and don't (or don't have the ability to) scout it, it's basically an auto-gg. That's the nature of SC2.
|
On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Can we just get over it already ? MC lost....did anyone consider that just maybe Puma had better micro? or that MC just made poor decisions?
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
The push would have arrived when he has less immortals, and was building a robo bay, or when his colossus would be about 50% done? That would have been an even earlier gg for mc.
|
On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly.
|
On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly.
You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Just like Tyler said earlier in the thread you don't need to expand super early in this matchup..It is safer and better to rush to obs first and go from there. See an early expo? drop yours it wont be that far behind...
|
On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing.
I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets.
Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST
+
Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea
= Some sort of contradiction, no?
|
On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Just like Tyler said earlier in the thread you don't need to expand super early in this matchup..It is safer and better to rush to obs first and go from there.
Yes, and then you lose. Just read the thread, this has been discussed a lot.
|
On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time.
Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1.
|
TLADT24920 Posts
On August 23 2011 09:18 Yaotzin wrote:
When Puma starts sieging up the nat:
Army value:
2100/550 for Puma
2025/900 for MC.
Protoss is AHEAD in economy. The mule is NOT the issue here.
Agree, mule isn't the issue at all.
On August 23 2011 08:40 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:36 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 08:29 IVN wrote:On August 23 2011 08:25 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 08:20 Teiwaz wrote:On August 23 2011 07:43 Souli wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2011 07:20 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 07:16 okrane wrote:
Dumb question: why do marines need 45hp w/o combat shield and 55hp with combat shield later in the game?
How would 10hp less to marines change the match-ups? Terrans need marines for DPS, especially in TvZ. Once aoe enters the fray, 45hp marines die. Like really fast. The problem comes from the timing between lots of marines -> aoe enters the fray. 1-1-1 nails this timing. I suggest Blizzard may swap storm research with feedback. That wouldn't only make them equal to ghosts (storm - emp) but also maybe stop the push. Any comments? That would be a horrible decision IMO as it would make a huge timing push vZ possible - at least I think that. No, I really like the "no super saturation with MULES" idea WAY better - super saturation for the race that get's the most out of a mineral surplus, yeah, great idea Blizzard... Where's this mule stuff coming from? Mules causing a headache is just a meaningless side effect of the allin being so strong that it can trap you on one base. If you aren't trapped on one base mules are fine. Only solutions I can see are a) nerf marine dps at least temporarily (give it back with upgrade) or b) slow down Terran tech so Protoss can get aoe and a decent gateway force against mass marine with support. The way I see it, the 111 push starts 2 or so mules after the mineral line has been saturated. How much is that? ~500 minerals worth of marines? Dunno but its beside the point. You don't nerf a fundamental aspect of the game like that to deal with a specific timing problem. The 1/1/1 composition is easy to deal with lategame, it's purely a timing issue. Solution is to slow Terran down, not nerf them permanently. Nerfing mules would break tvz horribly it's so reliant on marines. I agree. If you wanted to do some sort of nerf, it should be an early-game-only nerf. It could even be something as small as reducing marine range down to 4, and giving them an upgrade from the tech lab that brings it back to 5 range-- this would severely cut into the "marines scaling hard" factor since they won't be able to have as many shoot at once, and make the upgrade cheap (50/50) but take a long time (let's say, 120 seconds). This way, if you want your ranged marines, you need to have a tech lab on a rax for 4 production cycles! That would probably put a pretty solid damper on the 1/1/1 On the other hand, maybe it's still possible that a metagame shift could address this?
Might put a damper on 1/1/1 but it makes marines less useful in TvsZ early on. You can't "abuse" their range as much and thus you can't harass as much until you get this upgrade. Simply put, you'll need to get this before moving out with the marines. I think nerfing marines would be a bad idea. Better let the game play out a bit more before deciding on anything.
On August 23 2011 08:43 Executor1 wrote:
Mutas have always been a problem in zvp im surprised they have never been touched, the answer to mass muta has always been "Kill them before they get there" or "make sure to keep their muta numbers low" The fact that once a player gets to a certain number of units there is no good way to take it out seems a little bit ridiculous if you are staying on even footing in every other aspect of the game.
I would suggest to look at White-Ra vs. Nerchio from the IPL 2 finals. Let's just say White-Ra owned Nerchio in the last game.
|
On August 23 2011 10:38 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Just like Tyler said earlier in the thread you don't need to expand super early in this matchup..It is safer and better to rush to obs first and go from there. Yes, and then you lose. Just read the thread, this has been discussed a lot.
Choose to believe the OP that just states non-specific facts for a very dynamic all-in. It's a build that requires SPECIFIC micro to stop.
|
On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets.
He's just talking about general things and not even talking about the 1-1-1 build. Just because his name is tyler it does not make every post of him the ultimate truth. To be honest he even failed to read the OP or just read it and ignored everything stated in the OP. You can quote him but his reply is totally irrelevant to the thread, for example if he had read the OP he would have known that 15 nexus or 1gate is done against this build because it is more effective than 1basing.
|
On August 23 2011 10:29 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 21:53 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 22 2011 21:49 jinixxx123 wrote:On August 22 2011 21:26 Dusen wrote:
the original 1/1/1 build marine,marauder, tank and medivac is countered so hard by like 5 phoenixs.
1 gate exp, into stargate and add on more gates.
The problem is the new style with the raven and banshee, witch is at this moment impossible to counter.
no , just no, from since the sc2 beta i used to do mass marine/tank/raven/banshee all in.. This is absolutely nothing new from terran. I am trying to remember what exactly caused terrans to stop doing it but i quite honestly cant remember. I know personally the reason i stopped doing it was because of extremely fast colosus rushes back in the day, but nowdays protoss's seem to rely on mass gateway units instead of fast colosus. So thats why their is a resurgence of this build. i want to see more protoss get colos faster when they see bunker go up, all the whining will stop The problem with your theory is that Terran players already figured out how to crush 1 Base Colossus with this build: Bunker/Siege up and just contain you to 1 Base in a war of attrition that you will ALWAYS inevitably lose. Damn, Virgil ... You are very upset about the Calldown: MULE, lol. Reigning things in a bitI think the mods are indicating that they'd like to see discussion about solutions as opposed to play "name that nerf!" There is a whine thread for that now (which I love, lol, so trollish, and when you're sellin' ads, why not make such a alluring impression magnet?). I don't main as Toss, but I know that a solid 3gate + stargate will annihilate most Terran tech builds. The thing that sucks so bad in these types of discussions is that it is far too easy to say, "Well, if I do (a) to counter (b) then he will just change his play to something that beats (b)," and it just goes on and on, but what you're actually doing is just describing the game of Starcraft 2. It's like baseball, best of seven, baby!The ladder is best of one, but the game is very obviously a series game. No serious matches are best of ones versus random players. Sure, lots of qualifiers and lower level matches are Bo1's, but none of the games that matter are. If you're laddering, part of the game design ins SC2 is that you could be facing a VERY specific all-in designed to kill you in a big way and if you don't know the exact thing to do, you die. It's a very volatile game and the volatility just gets worse the better you get. MC literally looked unbeatable for a while there. His variety of all-ins were so strong that everyone just shook there had thinking, "imbaimbaimba," but somewhere along the line his pride, or his PR manager said, "You gotta build a Nexus and let it finish, man." There are lots of all-ins. Lots. If you don't know how to react, and don't (or don't have the ability to) scout it, it's basically an auto-gg. That's the nature of SC2.
It's been said time and time again, but the problem with the 1/1/1 allin in particular is as follows:
There isn't a specific Protoss build where the Terran sees it and thinks, "Man, I probably shouldn't 1/1/1 that." If you're 4gating and you see 3 bunkers at the top of a ramp, you back off, and the game is even. Any build that is not a nexus first is still vulnerable to a 1/1/1.
And don't you, "Well then nexus first is the counter!" me. Nexus first is not safe at all, considering how easily scouted it is, and the variety of other terran all ins.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9Qr6h.jpg)
|
On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. + = Some sort of contradiction, no?
talking about why something is considered imbalanced is different from talking about what should be done to fix it under the assumption that it is imbalanced. although there's only so far the former can go (it wouldn't go 78 pages, I'll tell you that much)
|
On August 23 2011 10:40 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:38 H0i wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Just like Tyler said earlier in the thread you don't need to expand super early in this matchup..It is safer and better to rush to obs first and go from there. Yes, and then you lose. Just read the thread, this has been discussed a lot. Choose to believe the OP that just states non-specific facts for a very dynamic all-in. It's a build that requires SPECIFIC micro to stop.
What kind of micro? Enlighten me. Show me 1 pro game where the terran doesn't mess up badly and the protoss holds it off. I don't just believe the OP because he says it. I speak from personal experience (you don't know my skill so don't even start about it), experience from watching pro's use this build, and also even players like MVP claim the build is obviously overpowered.
You're probably a terran player. I can understand why you go all defensive here but trust me, this build definitively is way too strong.
|
In my opinion, if blizzard decided to nerf banshee range to 4 would this not stop the 1-1-1 all in without affecting the other match ups greatly?
The way I think about 1-1-1 is that the banshee's provide sight for the tanks but can also dish out a lot of damage. In my mind nerfing the range would allow the protoss to deal with the banshees from afar and break of the the contain if the terran doesn't push the ramp with marines on maps like shakuras, backwater, or tal'darim. In addition the range nerf would also also stalkers to kite banshees and force sieges.
But slightly more on topic, I think that the 1-1-1 all in is so strong in Korea because of the Protoss's early game scouting and they're inability to deal with early tanks and heavy marine numbers without force field however siege tanks and banshees negate force fields and the marines eat everything can deal with tanks ups (example zealots)
Anyway those are just my thoughts :D
|
On August 23 2011 10:43 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:40 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 H0i wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Just like Tyler said earlier in the thread you don't need to expand super early in this matchup..It is safer and better to rush to obs first and go from there. Yes, and then you lose. Just read the thread, this has been discussed a lot. Choose to believe the OP that just states non-specific facts for a very dynamic all-in. It's a build that requires SPECIFIC micro to stop. What kind of micro? Enlighten me. Show me 1 pro game where the terran doesn't mess up badly and the protoss holds it off. I don't just believe the OP because he says it. I speak from personal experience (you don't know my skill so don't even start about it), experience from watching pro's use this build, and also even players like MVP claim the build is obviously overpowered. You're probably a terran player. I can understand why you go all defensive here but trust me, this build definitively is way too strong.
look at my post i just stated the kind of micro. why does it feel like you only read the first 2 paragraphs of it before you went off with a 1 sentence response.
|
On August 23 2011 10:34 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Can we just get over it already ? MC lost....did anyone consider that just maybe Puma had better micro? or that MC just made poor decisions?
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades. The push would have arrived when he has less immortals, and was building a robo bay, or when his colossus would be about 50% done? That would have been an even earlier gg for mc.
He would also not have enough stalkers to deal with the 2-3 banshees.
The thing with the build, is it is definitely stoppable. You need an absolutely perfect balance of units according to what he makes, whether it be more tanks or more banshees. If you had the right balance of units, you will trade armies and maybe lose the expo depending on how well you micro. If you manage to keep the expo alive without losing most of your probes, you probably win the game. If your expo dies, it becomes a guessing game of what units he decides to make on the next push. What happened to MC was that he overproduced immortals while puma made a lot more banshees instead of tanks. If he had held off the push, it would be another army trade depending on micro. About the time the 3rd push comes, if you somehow hold it off again, you will be mined out and the terran just floats to the natural and keeps it going.
|
On August 23 2011 10:43 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:40 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 H0i wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Just like Tyler said earlier in the thread you don't need to expand super early in this matchup..It is safer and better to rush to obs first and go from there. Yes, and then you lose. Just read the thread, this has been discussed a lot. Choose to believe the OP that just states non-specific facts for a very dynamic all-in. It's a build that requires SPECIFIC micro to stop. What kind of micro? Enlighten me. Show me 1 pro game where the terran doesn't mess up badly and the protoss holds it off. I don't just believe the OP because he says it. I speak from personal experience (you don't know my skill so don't even start about it), experience from watching pro's use this build, and also even players like MVP claim the build is obviously overpowered. You're probably a terran player. I can understand why you go all defensive here but trust me, this build definitively is way too strong.
Micro based on positioning, the importance of concaves, and correct targeting. Micro differs on which follow up you did to your opening, so I can only be general when you ask a question like this. It also differs on what form of 1-1-1 was executed.
|
On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Can we just get over it already ? MC lost....did anyone consider that just maybe Puma had better micro? or that MC just made poor decisions?
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Also every time I've seen a toss successfully stop 1-1-1 all in they rushed out to meet the army as it was pushing out to whittle it down, snipe tanks and/or banshees and stall it. Any push with siege tanks in it can be slowed down tremendously with pokes forcing them to siege and unsiege AND possibly blow their PDD before they get to the front of your base...
The key to beating this build is just micro and proper decision making..
Also MC was actually close to holding off the push in the first game. he had all the tanks dead and just marines in his base, but Puma's micro with those last dozen marines or so was sick good - he just cornered MC's army and didn't allow him to build up a few more units to win the battle.
IMO MC just got outplayed in those games. Instead of crying about balance people should just try play better...or at least think about an actual solution/counter.
You have to outplay your opponent to win in this game. and those who think Puma just did a build and 1-a'd across the map are ignorant or just heavily biased.
"Maybe instead of spending 750/300 and 165 seconds making 3 Immortals he should have spent 1200/800 and 250 seconds making 2 immortals and a colossus with range"
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
