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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 23 2011 10:49 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:43 H0i wrote:On August 23 2011 10:40 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 H0i wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Just like Tyler said earlier in the thread you don't need to expand super early in this matchup..It is safer and better to rush to obs first and go from there. Yes, and then you lose. Just read the thread, this has been discussed a lot. Choose to believe the OP that just states non-specific facts for a very dynamic all-in. It's a build that requires SPECIFIC micro to stop. What kind of micro? Enlighten me. Show me 1 pro game where the terran doesn't mess up badly and the protoss holds it off. I don't just believe the OP because he says it. I speak from personal experience (you don't know my skill so don't even start about it), experience from watching pro's use this build, and also even players like MVP claim the build is obviously overpowered. You're probably a terran player. I can understand why you go all defensive here but trust me, this build definitively is way too strong. Micro based on positioning, the importance of concaves, and correct targeting. Micro differs on which follow up you did to your opening, so I can only be general when you ask a question like this. It also differs on what form of 1-1-1 was executed.
As i said where you choose to fight is probably the most important aspect of the micro needed to stop the push.
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On August 23 2011 10:29 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 21:53 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 22 2011 21:49 jinixxx123 wrote:On August 22 2011 21:26 Dusen wrote:
the original 1/1/1 build marine,marauder, tank and medivac is countered so hard by like 5 phoenixs.
1 gate exp, into stargate and add on more gates.
The problem is the new style with the raven and banshee, witch is at this moment impossible to counter.
no , just no, from since the sc2 beta i used to do mass marine/tank/raven/banshee all in.. This is absolutely nothing new from terran. I am trying to remember what exactly caused terrans to stop doing it but i quite honestly cant remember. I know personally the reason i stopped doing it was because of extremely fast colosus rushes back in the day, but nowdays protoss's seem to rely on mass gateway units instead of fast colosus. So thats why their is a resurgence of this build. i want to see more protoss get colos faster when they see bunker go up, all the whining will stop The problem with your theory is that Terran players already figured out how to crush 1 Base Colossus with this build: Bunker/Siege up and just contain you to 1 Base in a war of attrition that you will ALWAYS inevitably lose. Damn, Virgil ... You are very upset about the Calldown: MULE, lol. Reigning things in a bitI think the mods are indicating that they'd like to see discussion about solutions as opposed to play "name that nerf!" There is a whine thread for that now (which I love, lol, so trollish, and when you're sellin' ads, why not make such a alluring impression magnet?). I don't main as Toss, but I know that a solid 3gate + stargate will annihilate most Terran tech builds. The thing that sucks so bad in these types of discussions is that it is far too easy to say, "Well, if I do (a) to counter (b) then he will just change his play to something that beats (b)," and it just goes on and on, but what you're actually doing is just describing the game of Starcraft 2. It's like baseball, best of seven, baby!The ladder is best of one, but the game is very obviously a series game. No serious matches are best of ones versus random players. Sure, lots of qualifiers and lower level matches are Bo1's, but none of the games that matter are. If you're laddering, part of the game design ins SC2 is that you could be facing a VERY specific all-in designed to kill you in a big way and if you don't know the exact thing to do, you die. It's a very volatile game and the volatility just gets worse the better you get. MC literally looked unbeatable for a while there. His variety of all-ins were so strong that everyone just shook there had thinking, "imbaimbaimba," but somewhere along the line his pride, or his PR manager said, "You gotta build a Nexus and let it finish, man." There are lots of all-ins. Lots. If you don't know how to react, and don't (or don't have the ability to) scout it, it's basically an auto-gg. That's the nature of SC2.
3gate stargate comes VERY close to beating this build, as in it can win if terran doesn't see it coming or mismicro's the one viking he should be able to get out. Relying on an all-in to beat an all-in seems simply like bad game design to me though.
Also I did some comparisons of 1 base 3gate robo vs 1gate FE into 3gates+robo for the exact same infrastructure, doing an actual build to have correct timings to the point where all infrastructure is down. Both builds have 4 and 3 pylons respectively(nexus supply) and the probe that was building the gateway sent away.
Results at 9:00.
1base 3gates+robo 2940 minerals 1165 gas 28 workers and 740/224 income
1gate FE into 3gates+robo 2955 minerals 825 gas 34 workers and 1140/224 income
Assuming the push hits at 9 min, and at 10:00 the nexus is going to die.
1gate FE has broken even mineral-wise roughly at the 9:00 mark, and 4 extra zealots by the time you want to save the nexus, in addition to having the ability to produce off more infrastructure, AND has more chronoboost available.
Nexus first I'm not testing because I don't ever use that build and I don't know when to cut probes for a "true" scenario. Rest assured though that it'll break even probably around the 8:00 mark or earlier.
TLDR; If you go a safe build, don't bother expanding because it won't pay for itself by the time the push comes.
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That is amazing. + at least 10 internets.
Seriously, you know, as much as I hate this build, I really feel like MC showed it's beatable. The first game was completely winnable, MC just overestimated his lead. The third game, I would have loved to see him do standard zealot-sentry-phoenix rather than 'nix-stalker-DT shenanigans. Sniping the first raven gave him all the time in the world to set up a defense, except he didn't bother.
Now, whether "lose almost everything you own, including your natural, over and over until he mines out his main" can really be called a counter, I'll leave up to you. But it's something.
You know what would be awesome? If MC and MVP sat down for a couple days and ran this thing until they worked out a real counter. MVP's known to hate it, and if he can save his race from the nerf bat by helping the best protoss in the world find a defense that works on the best terran in the world, hey....
I can dream.
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On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. + = Some sort of contradiction, no?
On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1.
This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this push
p.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe?
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On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Can we just get over it already ? MC lost....did anyone consider that just maybe Puma had better micro? or that MC just made poor decisions?
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Also every time I've seen a toss successfully stop 1-1-1 all in they rushed out to meet the army as it was pushing out to whittle it down, snipe tanks and/or banshees and stall it. Any push with siege tanks in it can be slowed down tremendously with pokes forcing them to siege and unsiege AND possibly blow their PDD before they get to the front of your base...
The key to beating this build is just micro and proper decision making..
Also MC was actually close to holding off the push in the first game. he had all the tanks dead and just marines in his base, but Puma's micro with those last dozen marines or so was sick good - he just cornered MC's army and didn't allow him to build up a few more units to win the battle.
IMO MC just got outplayed in those games. Instead of crying about balance people should just try play better...or at least think about an actual solution/counter.
You have to outplay your opponent to win in this game. and those who think Puma just did a build and 1-a'd across the map are ignorant or just heavily biased.
Woah crazy. I didn't know you could get out 1-2 immortals and 1-2 colossus with range before the 1/1/1 hit. Does this build require you to get 0 sentry and 0 stalkers?
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On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST + Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea = Some sort of contradiction, no? Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe?
I have also said many times that I question the validity of the OP. He does not really say what versions of the build he played against so.... non-specification leads to my doubting.
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On August 23 2011 10:40 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. He's just talking about general things and not even talking about the 1-1-1 build. Just because his name is tyler it does not make every post of him the ultimate truth. To be honest he even failed to read the OP or just read it and ignored everything stated in the OP. You can quote him but his reply is totally irrelevant to the thread, for example if he had read the OP he would have known that 15 nexus or 1gate is done against this build because it is more effective than 1basing.
So the OP's word is God but the Protoss God Tyler's word is shit?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
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On August 23 2011 11:00 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:40 H0i wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. He's just talking about general things and not even talking about the 1-1-1 build. Just because his name is tyler it does not make every post of him the ultimate truth. To be honest he even failed to read the OP or just read it and ignored everything stated in the OP. You can quote him but his reply is totally irrelevant to the thread, for example if he had read the OP he would have known that 15 nexus or 1gate is done against this build because it is more effective than 1basing. So the OP's word is God but the Protoss God Tyler's word is shit? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
This is precisely what I have been suggesting to people in my arguments.
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On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST + Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea = Some sort of contradiction, no? Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe?
The 1gate fe is ideal because the pressure doesn't punish you before 9/10 minutes. As such an extremely greedy fe is "safe" to THIS build and allows the max unit production to meet it. (It should be noted that if being super greedy doesn't work you would assume other builds would do worse)
However, Puzzle in his group stage match on Crossfire nearly won the game by one basing with phoenix. The phoenix kept the terran pinned while it prevented the necessity of getting a robo so you can just mass chargelots. I do think there was some astrix with his opponents execution but a phoenix 1base 4gate defense has some legs.
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On August 23 2011 11:00 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:40 H0i wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. He's just talking about general things and not even talking about the 1-1-1 build. Just because his name is tyler it does not make every post of him the ultimate truth. To be honest he even failed to read the OP or just read it and ignored everything stated in the OP. You can quote him but his reply is totally irrelevant to the thread, for example if he had read the OP he would have known that 15 nexus or 1gate is done against this build because it is more effective than 1basing. So the OP's word is God but the Protoss God Tyler's word is shit? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
Tyler didn't even give a solution... 1basing doesn't work--he is under the impression that this is meant to make fast expand risky but a fast expand is what actually has the best chance of beating it.
Also Gisado's credentials are already lain out in the first post and MVP one of the best, if not THE best Terrans in the world right now.
Anyway, this is kinda a dumb thread.Bitching constantly about it won't somehow make Blizzard nerf it, I doubt they even care what the plebeians think--if they do feel something is imbalanced then the Pros are really the only people they are going to care about.
And if someone like MVP thinks this is imbalanced, then I'm sure people don't have to stress about it since Blizzard will most likely make the right decision
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On August 23 2011 11:00 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST + Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea = Some sort of contradiction, no? On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe? I have also said many times that I question the validity of the OP. He does not really say what versions of the build he played against so.... non-specification leads to my doubting.
How can the OP being wrong when what he is saying is so simple?
Point 1: Terran makes more money than protoss per minute: Mules. This point doesn't even need arguing since is straight forward.
Point 2: Terran units are more cost-efficient than protoss units: You can test it if you want, but its almost common knowledge that Marines, tanks, and banshees are amongst the best dps units whilst stalkers/sentries are the worst whilst zealots barely touch the marines/tanks before dying. Protoss could camp in his base and get collusi with range but by that time the terran already has bunkers/vikings on the field. Any protoss knows its not wise to attack a bunker;d/sieged up line.
Point 3: Protoss cannot expand because terran will constantly deny it due to point 1/2. reasoning is mentioned above.
On August 23 2011 11:02 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST + Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea = Some sort of contradiction, no? On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe? The 1gate fe is ideal because the pressure doesn't punish you before 9/10 minutes. As such an extremely greedy fe is "safe" to THIS build and allows the max unit production to meet it. (It should be noted that if being super greedy doesn't work you would assume other builds would do worse) However, Puzzle in his group stage match on Crossfire nearly won the game by one basing with phoenix. The phoenix kept the terran pinned while it prevented the necessity of getting a robo so you can just mass chargelots. I do think there was some astrix with his opponents execution but a phoenix 1base 4gate defense has some legs.
Its funny you mention'd the Puzzle game because that was the game his opponent played horribly and gave away 3 banshees.
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how about an increase to the marine's collision size? this would be two fold:
decreases their effectiveness in large numbers (can't clump up as much)
decrease their vulnerability to splash damage (aoe doesnt hurt them as much)
would make marines less of a "hurr durr if i build enough of these it doesnt matter what units you build you need splash to deal with them"
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On August 23 2011 10:29 TimeSpiral wrote:
MC literally looked unbeatable for a while there. His variety of all-ins were so strong that everyone just shook there had thinking, "imbaimbaimba," but somewhere along the line his pride, or his PR manager said, "You gotta build a Nexus and let it finish, man."
There are lots of all-ins. Lots. If you don't know how to react, and don't (or don't have the ability to) scout it, it's basically an auto-gg. That's the nature of SC2.
I don't appreciate you wikipediazing your post featuring "Reigning things in" with bold typeface. I feel that you may think you're better than the other posters, and perhaps more important too.
I also understand that you are constructing a fake history around the events of MCs triumph. Everyone didn't "just shake their head thinking 'imbaimbaimba'" (a lot of people were THRILLED to see such brilliant play). For me, that head-shaking was during Puzzle vs. asdf, but I digress.
I believe that the general aversion toward balance changes displayed in this thread, and the current marquee, is not befitting of a community founded upon Brood War with its infamous 1.08 patch. It certainly may be possible that a problem exists that cannot be fixed through sheer force of will, practice, or ingenuity. If such is the case, then by all means I believe changes should be made.
Due to the duration of 1/1/1 antagonism, and comments from true Starcraft professionals, it seems apparent that the balance is not lacking when it comes to practice/will/ingenuity. Terran users and Protoss users alike, at the very highest level of play, genuinely think this is a game-breaking strategy.
In good spirit, I humbly suggest cannon rushing in any event you enter into a TvP engagement on a smaller map. I do it. It works every time. You just gotta have the skill, bro. -_-;; Truly, I have no solution after all this time, and it's terribly frustrating to watch the pros struggle this much.
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On August 23 2011 11:11 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 11:00 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST + Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea = Some sort of contradiction, no? On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe? I have also said many times that I question the validity of the OP. He does not really say what versions of the build he played against so.... non-specification leads to my doubting. How can the OP being wrong when what he is saying is so simple? Point 1: Terran makes more money than protoss per minute: Mules. This point doesn't even need arguing since is straight forward. Point 2: Terran units are more cost-efficient than protoss units: You can test it if you want, but its almost common knowledge that Marines, tanks, and banshees are amongst the best dps units whilst stalkers/sentries are the worst whilst zealots barely touch the marines/tanks before dying. Protoss could camp in his base and get collusi with range but by that time the terran already has bunkers/vikings on the field. Any protoss knows its not wise to attack a bunker;d/sieged up line. Point 3: Protoss cannot expand because terran will constantly deny it due to point 1/2. reasoning is mentioned above. Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 11:02 Sabu113 wrote:On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST + Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea = Some sort of contradiction, no? On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe? The 1gate fe is ideal because the pressure doesn't punish you before 9/10 minutes. As such an extremely greedy fe is "safe" to THIS build and allows the max unit production to meet it. (It should be noted that if being super greedy doesn't work you would assume other builds would do worse) However, Puzzle in his group stage match on Crossfire nearly won the game by one basing with phoenix. The phoenix kept the terran pinned while it prevented the necessity of getting a robo so you can just mass chargelots. I do think there was some astrix with his opponents execution but a phoenix 1base 4gate defense has some legs. Its funny you mention'd the Puzzle game because that was the game his opponent played horribly and gave away 3 banshees.
Okay, let me give you a specific example of how the OP could be flawed. Say someone is going 1-gate robo expand and scouts the version of 1-1-1 that puma was doing (heavy marine style). If the protoss utilizes the fact that he got robo tech before expand, he will immediately rush up to colossus. That would be the correct response. The incorrect response would be to get more gates and go for a Stalker/zealot/immortal/sentry comp. I'm simply stating that MC had an improper follow up. You may say that he did not have enough time to get colossus; however, with a safe 1-gate robo expand... he would have enough time. The heavier tank/lower marine version is what you pull the Stalker/zealot/immortal/sentry comp out for.
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I love how people love to take away from how beautifully Puzzle denied the 1-1-1 with his unique build by saying, "Well ASD played horribly and gave away banshees blah blah". Of course he gave them away, he never thought in a million years that Puzzle would throw down a stargate!
The Puzzle match I'm thinking off was GSTL. I don't remember what map it was but Puzzle did NOT stay on one base. He 2 gate robo expanded into stargate if I'm not mistaken. With this build, Puzzle actually still made an army of mostly stalkers because with the phoenixes he was able to lift off the siege tanks long enough for the stalkers to whittle down the marine force enough for the immortals to stay alive and destroy the tanks once they were back down on the ground. lifting off the tanks also prevents them from obliterating the stalkers.
I think people who deny the possibilities this build offers are just regurgitating Artosis' sentiments. It was Artosis afterall who first decided to detract from how well Puzzle played by saying that asd played horribly.
Regardless, I think anyone who really hates this build should have a Terran buddy do it to them while they tinker with the current builds and compositions thought to hold the 1-1-1. Play around and see if you can come up with a solution instead of just crying for nerfs.
Did I mention I think mules should be nerfed? (insert sarcasm indicator here)
But in all seriousness I do hate the economic advantage provided by mules. To stay economically close to Terran you have to have almost double the worker count. Unlike mules though, these workers take up precious supply that could be dedicated to units. It just seems like too much sometimes.
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On August 22 2011 05:49 CryingPoo wrote:
As a Protoss player there are two possible ways to hold off 1/1/1.
1. 15 Nexus
2. 1 Gate into an expo
It's huge ignorance to say that. Not only there are other ways to stop it that we know of, but there is also potential for much more unexplored solutions to this build.
On GM+ level i've seen various strategies beating it
Phenix + DT harass (warping from low ground with vision from phenixes)
Taking hidden expo far away and counter attacking with warp prism
Zealot/immortal with flanking from 2-3 directions
flanking with zealots and immortals and force fielding marines, so they can't reach immortals and are left to fight with stalker/sentry/zealot without ability to kite (and it was done on 1 base, just very good positioning)
Most of those builds abuse position and the fact that without marines, other units in this push are vunerable to certain units.
I myself deal with it by getting maximum saturation on one base and perfect army composition off 4 gates and robo, i also position my units in best location for the engagement, assuming, my enemy is going to a-move from his base, straight into my natural.
Usually i'll have 3-4 immortals, 3 sentries (full energy), 5-6 stalkers and as much zealots as possible. Also proxy pylon, to reinforce near the engagement area.
This discussion raised after MC losing to Puma. In his case, he simply made too much probes, otherwise we would crush first push and counter attack, or contain T in his base forcing him to get medivacs.
Instances of protoss players beaing 3-1-1 stay unnoticed, but when terran wins with this build people cry "IMBA IMBA". Mentality of the weak. I play both, protoss and terran, and while i think that this build is silly and too strong in comparison to execution it requires, it's still very possible to beat it without blind countering. Learn to play against it, just like you have to learn how to play against 4 gate, 3rax, roach/ling allin.
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On August 23 2011 11:28 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 11:11 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 11:00 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST + Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea = Some sort of contradiction, no? On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe? I have also said many times that I question the validity of the OP. He does not really say what versions of the build he played against so.... non-specification leads to my doubting. How can the OP being wrong when what he is saying is so simple? Point 1: Terran makes more money than protoss per minute: Mules. This point doesn't even need arguing since is straight forward. Point 2: Terran units are more cost-efficient than protoss units: You can test it if you want, but its almost common knowledge that Marines, tanks, and banshees are amongst the best dps units whilst stalkers/sentries are the worst whilst zealots barely touch the marines/tanks before dying. Protoss could camp in his base and get collusi with range but by that time the terran already has bunkers/vikings on the field. Any protoss knows its not wise to attack a bunker;d/sieged up line. Point 3: Protoss cannot expand because terran will constantly deny it due to point 1/2. reasoning is mentioned above. On August 23 2011 11:02 Sabu113 wrote:On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST + Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea = Some sort of contradiction, no? On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe? The 1gate fe is ideal because the pressure doesn't punish you before 9/10 minutes. As such an extremely greedy fe is "safe" to THIS build and allows the max unit production to meet it. (It should be noted that if being super greedy doesn't work you would assume other builds would do worse) However, Puzzle in his group stage match on Crossfire nearly won the game by one basing with phoenix. The phoenix kept the terran pinned while it prevented the necessity of getting a robo so you can just mass chargelots. I do think there was some astrix with his opponents execution but a phoenix 1base 4gate defense has some legs. Its funny you mention'd the Puzzle game because that was the game his opponent played horribly and gave away 3 banshees. Okay, let me give you a specific example of how the OP could be flawed. Say someone is going 1-gate robo expand and scouts the version of 1-1-1 that puma was doing (heavy marine style). If the protoss utilizes the fact that he got robo tech before expand, he will immediately rush up to colossus. That would be the correct response. The incorrect response would be to get more gates and go for a Stalker/zealot/immortal/sentry comp. I'm simply stating that MC had an improper follow up. You may say that he did not have enough time to get colossus; however, with a safe 1-gate robo expand... he would have enough time. The heavier tank/lower marine version is what you pull the Stalker/zealot/immortal/sentry comp out for.
Even if its marine heavy, by the time you have your collusus up, he already is sieged up in natural (assuming you arent down the ramp). How do you attack into a siege'd up position without getting murdered?
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On August 23 2011 11:35 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 11:28 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 11:11 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 11:00 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST + Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea = Some sort of contradiction, no? On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe? I have also said many times that I question the validity of the OP. He does not really say what versions of the build he played against so.... non-specification leads to my doubting. How can the OP being wrong when what he is saying is so simple? Point 1: Terran makes more money than protoss per minute: Mules. This point doesn't even need arguing since is straight forward. Point 2: Terran units are more cost-efficient than protoss units: You can test it if you want, but its almost common knowledge that Marines, tanks, and banshees are amongst the best dps units whilst stalkers/sentries are the worst whilst zealots barely touch the marines/tanks before dying. Protoss could camp in his base and get collusi with range but by that time the terran already has bunkers/vikings on the field. Any protoss knows its not wise to attack a bunker;d/sieged up line. Point 3: Protoss cannot expand because terran will constantly deny it due to point 1/2. reasoning is mentioned above. On August 23 2011 11:02 Sabu113 wrote:On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST + Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea = Some sort of contradiction, no? On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe? The 1gate fe is ideal because the pressure doesn't punish you before 9/10 minutes. As such an extremely greedy fe is "safe" to THIS build and allows the max unit production to meet it. (It should be noted that if being super greedy doesn't work you would assume other builds would do worse) However, Puzzle in his group stage match on Crossfire nearly won the game by one basing with phoenix. The phoenix kept the terran pinned while it prevented the necessity of getting a robo so you can just mass chargelots. I do think there was some astrix with his opponents execution but a phoenix 1base 4gate defense has some legs. Its funny you mention'd the Puzzle game because that was the game his opponent played horribly and gave away 3 banshees. Okay, let me give you a specific example of how the OP could be flawed. Say someone is going 1-gate robo expand and scouts the version of 1-1-1 that puma was doing (heavy marine style). If the protoss utilizes the fact that he got robo tech before expand, he will immediately rush up to colossus. That would be the correct response. The incorrect response would be to get more gates and go for a Stalker/zealot/immortal/sentry comp. I'm simply stating that MC had an improper follow up. You may say that he did not have enough time to get colossus; however, with a safe 1-gate robo expand... he would have enough time. The heavier tank/lower marine version is what you pull the Stalker/zealot/immortal/sentry comp out for. Even if its marine heavy, by the time you have your collusus up, he already is sieged up in natural (assuming you arent down the ramp). How do you attack into a siege'd up position without getting murdered?
Because the siege tank count is so low, you can afford to take a few tank shots to roast a score of marines. It requires some micro, but much easier to defend.
EDIT: You should have your natural expansion at this time.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 23 2011 11:38 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 11:35 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 11:28 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 11:11 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 11:00 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST + Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea = Some sort of contradiction, no? On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe? I have also said many times that I question the validity of the OP. He does not really say what versions of the build he played against so.... non-specification leads to my doubting. How can the OP being wrong when what he is saying is so simple? Point 1: Terran makes more money than protoss per minute: Mules. This point doesn't even need arguing since is straight forward. Point 2: Terran units are more cost-efficient than protoss units: You can test it if you want, but its almost common knowledge that Marines, tanks, and banshees are amongst the best dps units whilst stalkers/sentries are the worst whilst zealots barely touch the marines/tanks before dying. Protoss could camp in his base and get collusi with range but by that time the terran already has bunkers/vikings on the field. Any protoss knows its not wise to attack a bunker;d/sieged up line. Point 3: Protoss cannot expand because terran will constantly deny it due to point 1/2. reasoning is mentioned above. On August 23 2011 11:02 Sabu113 wrote:On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST + Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea = Some sort of contradiction, no? On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 23 2011 10:20 Doomwish wrote:
Maybe instead of getting like 3 immortals to be melted by marines MC should of just gotten 1-2 immortals and a 1-2 colossus+ range. MC didn't make colossus in a single one of those games. I heard colossus are pretty good against marines with no upgrades.
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe? The 1gate fe is ideal because the pressure doesn't punish you before 9/10 minutes. As such an extremely greedy fe is "safe" to THIS build and allows the max unit production to meet it. (It should be noted that if being super greedy doesn't work you would assume other builds would do worse) However, Puzzle in his group stage match on Crossfire nearly won the game by one basing with phoenix. The phoenix kept the terran pinned while it prevented the necessity of getting a robo so you can just mass chargelots. I do think there was some astrix with his opponents execution but a phoenix 1base 4gate defense has some legs. Its funny you mention'd the Puzzle game because that was the game his opponent played horribly and gave away 3 banshees. Okay, let me give you a specific example of how the OP could be flawed. Say someone is going 1-gate robo expand and scouts the version of 1-1-1 that puma was doing (heavy marine style). If the protoss utilizes the fact that he got robo tech before expand, he will immediately rush up to colossus. That would be the correct response. The incorrect response would be to get more gates and go for a Stalker/zealot/immortal/sentry comp. I'm simply stating that MC had an improper follow up. You may say that he did not have enough time to get colossus; however, with a safe 1-gate robo expand... he would have enough time. The heavier tank/lower marine version is what you pull the Stalker/zealot/immortal/sentry comp out for. Even if its marine heavy, by the time you have your collusus up, he already is sieged up in natural (assuming you arent down the ramp). How do you attack into a siege'd up position without getting murdered? Because the siege tank count is so low, you can afford to take a few tank shots to roast a score of marines. It requires some micro, but much easier to defend.
And if he pulls the marines back behind the tanks? And has a PDD ready? 2-3 tanks will do a ton of damage if you randomly wander units in to try to get at the marines. It all depends on what kind of 1-1-1 he's doing, problem is, you can't scout him early enough to make an appropriate decision, you have to guess right and get lucky to even have a chance, and then if you guessed right, you have to out-micro him. The problem is that terran has a superior unit composition and more money in his army, that combination is almost impossible to deal with. At least by having two bases early you can at least have more money in your army to try to beat the superior unit comp by throwing money at it.
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On August 23 2011 11:41 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 11:38 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 11:35 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 11:28 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 11:11 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 11:00 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST + Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea = Some sort of contradiction, no? On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:
[quote]
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe? I have also said many times that I question the validity of the OP. He does not really say what versions of the build he played against so.... non-specification leads to my doubting. How can the OP being wrong when what he is saying is so simple? Point 1: Terran makes more money than protoss per minute: Mules. This point doesn't even need arguing since is straight forward. Point 2: Terran units are more cost-efficient than protoss units: You can test it if you want, but its almost common knowledge that Marines, tanks, and banshees are amongst the best dps units whilst stalkers/sentries are the worst whilst zealots barely touch the marines/tanks before dying. Protoss could camp in his base and get collusi with range but by that time the terran already has bunkers/vikings on the field. Any protoss knows its not wise to attack a bunker;d/sieged up line. Point 3: Protoss cannot expand because terran will constantly deny it due to point 1/2. reasoning is mentioned above. On August 23 2011 11:02 Sabu113 wrote:On August 23 2011 10:56 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 10:38 Techno wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm just gonna routinely quote this for the crickets. Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST + Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea = Some sort of contradiction, no? On August 23 2011 10:39 Razuik wrote:On August 23 2011 10:37 Doomwish wrote:On August 23 2011 10:35 ch33psh33p wrote:
[quote]
Do you think before you post? What makes you think changing 2 immortals equals getting 1-2 collosus + range? He would NEVER EVER have gotten collosi in time, much less range. The math has been done in this thread, it'd do you best to read them before posting blindly. You can get colossus if you 1 gate robo in time. Wait! Are you suggesting a safe and smart expand build based on good scouting and responding?! Bonjwa. No but seriously, this is the perfect opening vs 1-1-1. This has been said so many times in this thread on possibly every single page so i'll repeat it in underline and bold!!!!!!!
Building anything other than 15 Nexus or 1gate, Nexus will always lose you the game unless the terran is horrible and decides to give 3 banshees to charity by suicide. The problem is that protoss units are less effecient AND protoss gets less minerals/minute than the terran. The only solution to this is expanding but anything other than a 15 nexus or 1gate FE will die to this pushp.s. I respect Tyler but I honestly think he misunderstood the claims of the OP. I dont get how 3 gate robo is safe? The 1gate fe is ideal because the pressure doesn't punish you before 9/10 minutes. As such an extremely greedy fe is "safe" to THIS build and allows the max unit production to meet it. (It should be noted that if being super greedy doesn't work you would assume other builds would do worse) However, Puzzle in his group stage match on Crossfire nearly won the game by one basing with phoenix. The phoenix kept the terran pinned while it prevented the necessity of getting a robo so you can just mass chargelots. I do think there was some astrix with his opponents execution but a phoenix 1base 4gate defense has some legs. Its funny you mention'd the Puzzle game because that was the game his opponent played horribly and gave away 3 banshees. Okay, let me give you a specific example of how the OP could be flawed. Say someone is going 1-gate robo expand and scouts the version of 1-1-1 that puma was doing (heavy marine style). If the protoss utilizes the fact that he got robo tech before expand, he will immediately rush up to colossus. That would be the correct response. The incorrect response would be to get more gates and go for a Stalker/zealot/immortal/sentry comp. I'm simply stating that MC had an improper follow up. You may say that he did not have enough time to get colossus; however, with a safe 1-gate robo expand... he would have enough time. The heavier tank/lower marine version is what you pull the Stalker/zealot/immortal/sentry comp out for. Even if its marine heavy, by the time you have your collusus up, he already is sieged up in natural (assuming you arent down the ramp). How do you attack into a siege'd up position without getting murdered? Because the siege tank count is so low, you can afford to take a few tank shots to roast a score of marines. It requires some micro, but much easier to defend. And if he pulls the marines back behind the tanks? And has a PDD ready? 2-3 tanks will do a ton of damage if you randomly wander units in to try to get at the marines. It all depends on what kind of 1-1-1 he's doing, problem is, you can't scout him early enough to make an appropriate decision, you have to guess right and get lucky to even have a chance, and then if you guessed right, you have to out-micro him. The problem is that terran has a superior unit composition and more money in his army, that combination is almost impossible to deal with. At least by having two bases early you can at least have more money in your army to try to beat the superior unit comp by throwing money at it.
You must have not read my previous post. You DO have enough time to respond if you open with 1-gate robo. You don't have to guess if you do this opening. The scouting is essential. You ARE correct in that you have to micro a lot, but hey, all-ins are famously harder to hold than to execute. That's just the nature playing vs 1 base.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9Qr6h.jpg)
