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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 22 2011 08:32 TORTOISE wrote:
Terran is inherently imbalanced. Those who choose not to believe this are living a lie. Any argument must take into consideration that Terran is overpowered.
Any argument from the point of view of terran being underpowered should immediately be thrown out. Its garbage.
Carry on.
Dramatic much?
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On August 22 2011 08:34 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:24 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:20 Toadvine wrote:On August 22 2011 08:09 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:05 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:47 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:06 hugman wrote:
Even if Tyler isn't among the top pros he's still better than anyone else in this thread so why even begin to question his knowledge? If he can't debate then no one else can Tyler is a great player, no doubt, but I still hold the opinions of IMMvp, Alicia, Killer and the other Code S/A players who have said this build needs patching over his. Okay, just to lay to rest the IMMvp response to the allin. He is the terran that does it probably the least in Korea, so how does that give him the authority to comment on its balance? Little experience with the build usually results in rash conclusions about it. He does it the least precisely because he thinks it's broken and terran players shouldn't use it. Can you really not understand that? If he does it the least precisely, how is he the authority on it's balance though. He does it least precisely because he's a more macro player... meaning he has the least experience with it... meaning he's not the go-to-guy to determine how imbalanced it is. I'm nearly certain this is a troll at this point. Essentially claiming that you understand the state of the game better than MVP, that's just way overboard for it to be the typical Gold-level theorycrafting. Tyler stated the exact same things that I stated about 1-gate robo. Tyler barely even touched on how to hold the 1/1/1 specifically. He just made a general statement about early scouting being more valuable than early economy, and how it's difficult to play reactionary, because you need to respond to everything perfectly. His first post in this thread essentially makes it clear that he doesn't actually know how to defend the 1/1/1 after scouting it, but that he thinks there should be a way. You, on the other hand, think that one base Robo owns the 1/1/1 because that's what you lose to when you play it on the ladder. You think the likes of Gisado, MVP and Alicia are wrong about this, and that you, a Masters player on the NA server, is right. Come on dude.
You're right, I probably did go too specific in some of my descriptions about defending the allin. Personally I don't even do the all-in outside of close positions.
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Well, I guess all we can do is wait for the winrate statistics in Korean PvT. I'm going to say 25% this month perhaps? I guess that might quiet down the repetition of people arguing things that are already covered in the OP.
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On August 22 2011 08:36 absalom86 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:20 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. Exactly. Except of course than staying 1 base vs terran loses you the game right then and there vs the 1/1/1. They'll just contain you and expo themselves and you'll stand no chance of a comeback unless terran makes a huge blunder.
you can always warp on low ground and i have seen some sick warp prism play vs bunker contains, the terran almost never has stuff at home to defend anything really
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On August 22 2011 08:40 MenSol[ZerO] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:36 absalom86 wrote:On August 22 2011 06:20 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. Exactly. Except of course than staying 1 base vs terran loses you the game right then and there vs the 1/1/1. They'll just contain you and expo themselves and you'll stand no chance of a comeback unless terran makes a huge blunder. you can always warp on low ground and i have seen some sick warp prism play vs bunker contains, the terran almost never has stuff at home to defend anything really
that's about as good as saying you counter cannon rush against a zerg nat with a nydus
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On August 22 2011 08:36 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:33 harhar! wrote:On August 22 2011 08:26 Huntz wrote:Remember when everyone thought Roach zergling all in was unstoppable? Then MC showed us how to counter it. Everyone is just overreacting and eventually people will know how to start countering it better Yeah, except MC is just losing to this. huk 20 fe is pretty damn safe against many things, that terran can do earlygame. also i would love to see some fucking numbers that actually support what ppl say. shouldnt the winrate of t v p be extremely high right now? Well its been said before GSL winrate of the 1-1-1 is about 90%. The july winrates for TvP in Korea have protoss at like 34% and August will probably be worse u got some reliabale informant or what? just gsl is waaaaaaaaay to few games to make any comment. even ladder is better. im pretty sure the koreans will adapt to it very quickly. Rough versions of the build have been around since beta...now that it's more refined it's been around for like 2 months. There is no adapting. We're talking about MC. The best protoss, most successful, and arguably most innovative player. He has no answer for it. No one consistently does.
ppl say that everytime a new build comes up. and up until now every build has been cracked. so i dont see why this one is any different.
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ppl say that everytime a new build comes up. and up until now every build has been cracked. so i dont see why this one is any different.
pvp 4 gate wasn't, and still isn't on wide ramp maps
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On August 22 2011 08:42 harhar! wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:36 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 08:33 harhar! wrote:On August 22 2011 08:26 Huntz wrote:Remember when everyone thought Roach zergling all in was unstoppable? Then MC showed us how to counter it. Everyone is just overreacting and eventually people will know how to start countering it better Yeah, except MC is just losing to this. huk 20 fe is pretty damn safe against many things, that terran can do earlygame. also i would love to see some fucking numbers that actually support what ppl say. shouldnt the winrate of t v p be extremely high right now? Well its been said before GSL winrate of the 1-1-1 is about 90%. The july winrates for TvP in Korea have protoss at like 34% and August will probably be worse u got some reliabale informant or what? just gsl is waaaaaaaaay to few games to make any comment. even ladder is better. im pretty sure the koreans will adapt to it very quickly. Rough versions of the build have been around since beta...now that it's more refined it's been around for like 2 months. There is no adapting. We're talking about MC. The best protoss, most successful, and arguably most innovative player. He has no answer for it. No one consistently does. ppl say that everytime a new build comes up. and up until now every build has been cracked. so i dont see why this one is any different.
If by cracked you mean nerfed then yes. Deathball got nerfed, amulet got nerfed. etc. This shit is 5 rax reaper level of stupid. To the point where MVP won't even use it.
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On August 22 2011 08:37 Huntz wrote:Show nested quote +u got some reliabale informant or what? just gsl is waaaaaaaaay to few games to make any comment. even ladder is better. im pretty sure the koreans will adapt to it very quickly. What do you want, if not GSL or ladder? It's been a month and nothing has changed, except some things clearly don't work.
at least see the data for myself to check lol.
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On August 22 2011 08:42 harhar! wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:36 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 08:33 harhar! wrote:On August 22 2011 08:26 Huntz wrote:Remember when everyone thought Roach zergling all in was unstoppable? Then MC showed us how to counter it. Everyone is just overreacting and eventually people will know how to start countering it better Yeah, except MC is just losing to this. huk 20 fe is pretty damn safe against many things, that terran can do earlygame. also i would love to see some fucking numbers that actually support what ppl say. shouldnt the winrate of t v p be extremely high right now? Well its been said before GSL winrate of the 1-1-1 is about 90%. The july winrates for TvP in Korea have protoss at like 34% and August will probably be worse u got some reliabale informant or what? just gsl is waaaaaaaaay to few games to make any comment. even ladder is better. im pretty sure the koreans will adapt to it very quickly. Rough versions of the build have been around since beta...now that it's more refined it's been around for like 2 months. There is no adapting. We're talking about MC. The best protoss, most successful, and arguably most innovative player. He has no answer for it. No one consistently does. ppl say that everytime a new build comes up. and up until now every build has been cracked. so i dont see why this one is any different.
A lot of builds were "cracked" with the help of Blizzard. (5 rax reaper, Proxy rax before depot, 2 Gate Zealot etc.)
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On August 22 2011 08:44 Jinivus wrote:
If by cracked you mean nerfed then yes. Deathball got nerfed, amulet got nerfed. etc. This shit is 5 rax reaper level of stupid. To the point where MVP won't even use it.
Deathball and amulet usage weren't "builds," they're strategies. 3 gate sentry push, 3 rax all-in, thor rush, baneling busts, 15 hatch, etc. are builds. Also, last time I checked, every unit in the deathball has been nerf free for this YTD.
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The 1-1-1 build is basically the same thing that the tasteless build from beta, an one base siege tank/marine/banshee/raven all-in. It was a strong strategy in beta, but it was equilibrated by the fact it was extremely risky for terrans, as it could be countered by a 4gate or a 3gate/Stargate. Those two build orders were deadly against a 1-1-1 because the terran player had little to no units early, because he was building 3 buildings at the same time. Therefore, most terrans preferred to a more conservative style, to defend against early VR harrass or a 4gate push.
Both the 4gate (zealot timing, Warpgate tech) and the voidray were nerfed. Therefore, those openings don't work anymore as you don't have that early timing against a terran that's teching. Now, it has become a risk free B.O. for terran players in close positions.
The real problems is that you can't "buff" protoss again because it would put that race on an even foot with terran, but zerg would get raped as they have zero harass options in the early game (except for one base baneling, and that's really bad).
Sadly, i think the game is just fucked because they created a beatiful race that i love to play, terran, but never developed protoss and zerg enough.
Now, i believe the only solution would be a new protoss unit, and that unit is the reaver. Protoss needs a high risk/high damage unit that can be used to break contains. It is also good as a fast reaver could be used to harass and it would be a good opening anyways. On the other hand, it is risky enough as reavers required tons and tons of micro and babysitting, and if you killed the shuttle, it was dead in seconds. Of course, they should bring back the stupid AI as an intelligent reaver scarab would be just too powerful. Bring back the Broodwar reaver (and erase the Colossus, it sucks anyway).
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On August 22 2011 08:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:24 illsick wrote:On August 22 2011 08:21 Lobotomist wrote:
Hmmmm. Well, if the 1/1/1 is too strong (which it certainly looks like from my perspective, as a zerg player who watches high level PvT) what should be done about it? What can you nerf that won't seriously hamper other aspects of terran gameplay or make certain units obsolete? Banshees already have long build times, tank/siege timing is pretty thin to be safe against certain zerg aggression in TvZ. Marines are really strong but I dunno if you could actually nerf them in a way that wouldn't cripple terran early game vs 4 gate or ling/baneling all-ins. Someone already mentioned that PDD should be a research and HSM should be standard with the raven like PDD is now. Which is a start and seems like a good idea. That actually makes some sense, given that the Ghost Infestor and HT also start with AoE spells. Anyways, I think it is definitely possible for Blizzard to change the Raven, but not all 111 all ins use Ravens, so I think Blizzard (if at all) needs to look for something else. Edit: Also, I think the OP should be more clear, those two builds are not the only builds possible, there are a lot of similar builds that "can" work.
I hate this comparison of units directly. You can't do that because of Force Field. If toss units were the same they roll everyone just by dividing army in half every game.
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On August 22 2011 08:46 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:42 harhar! wrote:On August 22 2011 08:36 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 08:33 harhar! wrote:On August 22 2011 08:26 Huntz wrote:Remember when everyone thought Roach zergling all in was unstoppable? Then MC showed us how to counter it. Everyone is just overreacting and eventually people will know how to start countering it better Yeah, except MC is just losing to this. huk 20 fe is pretty damn safe against many things, that terran can do earlygame. also i would love to see some fucking numbers that actually support what ppl say. shouldnt the winrate of t v p be extremely high right now? Well its been said before GSL winrate of the 1-1-1 is about 90%. The july winrates for TvP in Korea have protoss at like 34% and August will probably be worse u got some reliabale informant or what? just gsl is waaaaaaaaay to few games to make any comment. even ladder is better. im pretty sure the koreans will adapt to it very quickly. Rough versions of the build have been around since beta...now that it's more refined it's been around for like 2 months. There is no adapting. We're talking about MC. The best protoss, most successful, and arguably most innovative player. He has no answer for it. No one consistently does. ppl say that everytime a new build comes up. and up until now every build has been cracked. so i dont see why this one is any different. A lot of builds were "cracked" with the help of Blizzard. (5 rax reaper, Proxy rax before depot, 2 Gate Zealot etc.)
It doesn't matter how many times you refute this argument, it still crops up again and again. It's like the previous patches never happened for some people.
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On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing.
I wonder why people seem to be ignoring this post.
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On August 22 2011 08:49 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I wonder why people seem to be ignoring this post.
How incorrect he is was already discussed ad nauseum earlier in the thread
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On August 22 2011 08:47 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:44 Jinivus wrote:
If by cracked you mean nerfed then yes. Deathball got nerfed, amulet got nerfed. etc. This shit is 5 rax reaper level of stupid. To the point where MVP won't even use it. Deathball and amulet usage weren't "builds," they're strategies. 3 gate sentry push, 3 rax all-in, thor rush, baneling busts, 15 hatch, etc. are builds. Also, last time I checked, every unit in the deathball has been nerf free for this YTD.
Semantics. His point was that all the builds or "strategies" considered op were figured out. They weren't most were nerfed.
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i think a combination of harass, scouting, of course micro and economy is the best way to beat this build...
i would say harassing before the ~8-9 minutes mark - which is pretty much the earliest you see people move out with this - is key, and then keeping it up
also engage away from your ramp/nat
i'm not 100 percent sold on the idea that nex first or 1gate fe is necessary to beat it, but on the other hand i'm not good enough in general or at holding this off to judge...
all that being said, i do think it is slightly imbalanced... i'm not sure what needs to change though to make it more fair, maybe nerf scv repair while combat is happening, similar to shield regen, or maybe extend firing anmiation/cooldown of marines, increase siege research time? (esp since wg time was inc) nerfing pdd?
i dunno just throwing em out there
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I think the fundamental problem here is just that terran can't be scouted easily (they can hide their tech builds or whatever quite easily). That combined with the fact the orbital can fly makes T really strong when they force the game into a 1 base vs 1 base situation.
I suspect one of these two changes will be coming up fairly soon:
- orbital commands can't lift anymore. Makes the dreaded inbase expansion easier to scout as they have to float out earlier and nerfs the 1 basing somewhat.
- marine health down to 40, combat shields gives them 55.
I probably expect the latter change to be it, marine based pressure maps has been too strong on small maps basically for the entire game and a simple nerf to the unupgraded marine will fix this. In return they could even buff the research time for combat shield a little bit if neccesary imo. On big maps this change should hardly matter anyway.
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On August 22 2011 08:49 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I wonder why people seem to be ignoring this post.
Because he's not even really taking about the 1-1-1. He's talking about playing safely with some kind of build capable of scouting your opponent so you can react, then playing safe with an economic style into the midgame The problem is that once you have scouted this build you are more behind than if you had placed your nexus earlier. Playing safe into the midgame doesn't work because you have to play risky in the early game to even make it to the mid-game. I imagine if Tyler played some PvTs on the Korean server he would be less than amused after facing it a couple times. One gate expand is more economic than both builds which only really act as scouting tools and it still always loses to 1-1-1.
OP stated that he knows someone who tried the build Tyler is recommending five times and lost every game even though he knew it was coming.
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EPT
