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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
In puzzle vs asd on XNFortress in the team league 1 gate stargate looked like it can hold it off but it requires terran to make mistakes such as losing the banshee and some other stuff. This may be the way to hold with better control but it looked pretty iffy. My zerg heart goes out to the toss players who face this.
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losing three banshees
fixed 
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On August 22 2011 08:29 NuclearWINtr wrote:
In puzzle vs asd on XNFortress in the team league 1 gate stargate looked like it can hold it off but it requires terran to make mistakes such as losing the banshee and some other stuff. This may be the way to hold with better control but it looked pretty iffy. My zerg heart goes out to the toss players who face this.
asd's execution was really bad and it was still close haha. MC tried 1gate stargate and lost today. Hard to say if chargelots wouldve been a better choice than blink stalkers but I suppose he didn't think Puma would make another raven and in that case they're better.
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Even if it IS as unstoppable as people say, I can't think of a conceivable way to "nerf" any aspect of it without drastically altering almost every Terran metagame aspect. Nerfing tanks again would just leave TvZ in shambles and take away a staple timing attack/defense. Nerfing marines would just completely change EVERYTHING to the point where every single matchup would have to be revisited with a fine comb. Nerfing banshees would leave Terrans with another unit like the reaper, except this one would have a stupid expensive upgrade to go along. Nerfing ravens would do the same thing (as if they're not neglected enough already).
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Terran is inherently imbalanced. Those who choose not to believe this are living a lie. Any argument must take into consideration that Terran is overpowered.
Any argument from the point of view of terran being underpowered should immediately be thrown out. Its garbage.
Carry on.
User was warned for this post
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On August 22 2011 08:27 illsick wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:24 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:20 Toadvine wrote:On August 22 2011 08:09 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:05 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:47 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:06 hugman wrote:
Even if Tyler isn't among the top pros he's still better than anyone else in this thread so why even begin to question his knowledge? If he can't debate then no one else can Tyler is a great player, no doubt, but I still hold the opinions of IMMvp, Alicia, Killer and the other Code S/A players who have said this build needs patching over his. Okay, just to lay to rest the IMMvp response to the allin. He is the terran that does it probably the least in Korea, so how does that give him the authority to comment on its balance? Little experience with the build usually results in rash conclusions about it. He does it the least precisely because he thinks it's broken and terran players shouldn't use it. Can you really not understand that? If he does it the least precisely, how is he the authority on it's balance though. He does it least precisely because he's a more macro player... meaning he has the least experience with it... meaning he's not the go-to-guy to determine how imbalanced it is. I'm nearly certain this is a troll at this point. Essentially claiming that you understand the state of the game better than MVP, that's just way overboard for it to be the typical Gold-level theorycrafting. Tyler stated the exact same things that I stated about 1-gate robo. so you credit tyler but discredit MVP, interesting....
Let me put this simply
MvP-Stated he does not do the build because it discredits his wins.
Tyler-Plays protoss in a metagame that has terrans doing 1-1-1 every other game.
Tyler obviously has much more experience with it.
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On August 22 2011 08:26 Huntz wrote:Show nested quote +Remember when everyone thought Roach zergling all in was unstoppable? Then MC showed us how to counter it. Everyone is just overreacting and eventually people will know how to start countering it better Yeah, except MC is just losing to this. Show nested quote +huk 20 fe is pretty damn safe against many things, that terran can do earlygame. also i would love to see some fucking numbers that actually support what ppl say. shouldnt the winrate of t v p be extremely high right now? Well its been said before GSL winrate of the 1-1-1 is about 90%. The july winrates for TvP in Korea have protoss at like 34% and August will probably be worse
u got some reliabale informant or what? just gsl is waaaaaaaaay to few games to make any comment. even ladder is better. im pretty sure the koreans will adapt to it very quickly.
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the 2nd worst part about this build is scouting early gas, preparing for 1/1/1 then watching BFH wipe your entire mineral line
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On August 22 2011 08:26 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:24 illsick wrote:On August 22 2011 08:21 Lobotomist wrote:
Hmmmm. Well, if the 1/1/1 is too strong (which it certainly looks like from my perspective, as a zerg player who watches high level PvT) what should be done about it? What can you nerf that won't seriously hamper other aspects of terran gameplay or make certain units obsolete? Banshees already have long build times, tank/siege timing is pretty thin to be safe against certain zerg aggression in TvZ. Marines are really strong but I dunno if you could actually nerf them in a way that wouldn't cripple terran early game vs 4 gate or ling/baneling all-ins. Someone already mentioned that PDD should be a research and HSM should be standard with the raven like PDD is now. Which is a start and seems like a good idea. PDD being an upgrade is not unreasonable at all. It's a force multiplier in the early game
I like the idea of PDD having to be researched. I think maybe even a slight tweak to the banshee's health might help the 1/1/1 not be so effective. I don't think that it would really effect the other match-ups like TvZ.
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On August 22 2011 08:15 CryingPoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:52 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:40 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:37 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:25 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:23 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 07:22 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:18 JackDanger wrote:On August 22 2011 07:14 Razuik wrote:
[quote]
Just from experience. Of course, nothing is so certain without a high level example. Since I haven't really seen any 2-gate robo builds at the highest level, we can just go back and fourth with no evidence. Which would be pointless. I would pose as evidence that this build has existed in some form since beta (though only in the forefront the last few months I suppose) and no viable counter, even blindly, has been successful. I would also say that 2-gate robo is/was a fairly standard build, and since it sounds good in theory, probably would have been one of the first responses attempted. There were many more robo openings in high level play about 5-6 months ago. The metagame then shifted to more FE openings for protoss. Terran have now realized this and are doing more 1-1-1 allins. Shouldn't the next shift in the metagame be robo openings? Robo openings often lose to 1-1-1 anyway. I dunno man, how many have we seen recently at the highest level? I can't even think of one. It's just the metagame. We do not see them most likely because they were thrown out in practice by the Koreans already. Do you think they would not try such a simple thing ? We have no way of knowing that. All we know is 5-6 months ago when robo builds were popular, there were wayyy less 1-1-1 allins. That says something. No it actually does not say anything else than that they were not used. It was also a time when wg reasearch was shorter. Also since you responded before my edit, i will repeat. Why did you ignore this piece of information: On August 22 2011 06:23 CryingPoo wrote:On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. I will be suggesting GomTV to have an Artosis on Star2 Ready Action Program. Korean SC2 caster who claimed that 1/1/1 is dependable against Protoss with the exact build that Artosis claimed got BEATEN 5 times in a row by ST_SuperStar (also known as Random King) It was beaten by ST_SuperStar vs who? This is such vague information lol. How can you argue off that? I said a Korean GSL commentator his name is Dae-Man, Park who is considered to be one of the good playing commentator. I am not putting down Artosis by any means but he would have more knowledge on Korean server at least.
For those who don't know Dae-Man, Park was a well-known BW protoss player known as DaezanG who currently casts for the GSL Korean stream. This guy would be no scrub and it's pretty telling even knowing what's coming 5 times in a row he couldn't stop it with the supposedly safe build that Artosis and Tyler are advocating.
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On August 22 2011 08:24 illsick wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:21 Lobotomist wrote:
Hmmmm. Well, if the 1/1/1 is too strong (which it certainly looks like from my perspective, as a zerg player who watches high level PvT) what should be done about it? What can you nerf that won't seriously hamper other aspects of terran gameplay or make certain units obsolete? Banshees already have long build times, tank/siege timing is pretty thin to be safe against certain zerg aggression in TvZ. Marines are really strong but I dunno if you could actually nerf them in a way that wouldn't cripple terran early game vs 4 gate or ling/baneling all-ins. Someone already mentioned that PDD should be a research and HSM should be standard with the raven like PDD is now. Which is a start and seems like a good idea.
That actually makes some sense, given that the Ghost Infestor and HT also start with AoE spells.
Anyways, I think it is definitely possible for Blizzard to change the Raven, but not all 111 all ins use Ravens, so I think Blizzard (if at all) needs to look for something else.
Edit:
Also, I think the OP should be more clear, those two builds are not the only builds possible, there are a lot of similar builds that "can" work.
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On August 22 2011 08:24 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:20 Toadvine wrote:On August 22 2011 08:09 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:05 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:47 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:06 hugman wrote:
Even if Tyler isn't among the top pros he's still better than anyone else in this thread so why even begin to question his knowledge? If he can't debate then no one else can Tyler is a great player, no doubt, but I still hold the opinions of IMMvp, Alicia, Killer and the other Code S/A players who have said this build needs patching over his. Okay, just to lay to rest the IMMvp response to the allin. He is the terran that does it probably the least in Korea, so how does that give him the authority to comment on its balance? Little experience with the build usually results in rash conclusions about it. He does it the least precisely because he thinks it's broken and terran players shouldn't use it. Can you really not understand that? If he does it the least precisely, how is he the authority on it's balance though. He does it least precisely because he's a more macro player... meaning he has the least experience with it... meaning he's not the go-to-guy to determine how imbalanced it is. I'm nearly certain this is a troll at this point. Essentially claiming that you understand the state of the game better than MVP, that's just way overboard for it to be the typical Gold-level theorycrafting. Tyler stated the exact same things that I stated about 1-gate robo.
Tyler barely even touched on how to hold the 1/1/1 specifically. He just made a general statement about early scouting being more valuable than early economy, and how it's difficult to play reactionary, because you need to respond to everything perfectly. His first post in this thread essentially makes it clear that he doesn't actually know how to defend the 1/1/1 after scouting it, but that he thinks there should be a way.
You, on the other hand, think that one base Robo owns the 1/1/1 because that's what you lose to when you play it on the ladder. You think the likes of Gisado, MVP and Alicia are wrong about this, and that you, a Masters player on the NA server, is right.
Come on dude.
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On August 22 2011 08:32 TORTOISE wrote:
Terran is inherently imbalanced. Those who choose not to believe this are living a lie. Any argument must take into consideration that Terran is overpowered.
Any argument from the point of view of terran being underpowered should immediately be thrown out. Its garbage.
Carry on.
lol.
this, 100x over
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 22 2011 08:32 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:27 illsick wrote:On August 22 2011 08:24 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:20 Toadvine wrote:On August 22 2011 08:09 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:05 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:47 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:06 hugman wrote:
Even if Tyler isn't among the top pros he's still better than anyone else in this thread so why even begin to question his knowledge? If he can't debate then no one else can Tyler is a great player, no doubt, but I still hold the opinions of IMMvp, Alicia, Killer and the other Code S/A players who have said this build needs patching over his. Okay, just to lay to rest the IMMvp response to the allin. He is the terran that does it probably the least in Korea, so how does that give him the authority to comment on its balance? Little experience with the build usually results in rash conclusions about it. He does it the least precisely because he thinks it's broken and terran players shouldn't use it. Can you really not understand that? If he does it the least precisely, how is he the authority on it's balance though. He does it least precisely because he's a more macro player... meaning he has the least experience with it... meaning he's not the go-to-guy to determine how imbalanced it is. I'm nearly certain this is a troll at this point. Essentially claiming that you understand the state of the game better than MVP, that's just way overboard for it to be the typical Gold-level theorycrafting. Tyler stated the exact same things that I stated about 1-gate robo. so you credit tyler but discredit MVP, interesting.... Let me put this simply MvP-Stated he does not do the build because it discredits his wins. Tyler-Plays protoss in a metagame that has terrans doing 1-1-1 every other game. Tyler obviously has much more experience with it.
this thinking is mind-boggling stupid. Did it ever cross your mind that MVP might be using it in practice?
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On August 22 2011 08:21 Lobotomist wrote:
Hmmmm. Well, if the 1/1/1 is too strong (which it certainly looks like from my perspective, as a zerg player who watches high level PvT) what should be done about it? What can you nerf that won't seriously hamper other aspects of terran gameplay or make certain units obsolete? Banshees already have long build times, tank/siege timing is pretty thin to be safe against certain zerg aggression in TvZ. Marines are really strong but I dunno if you could actually nerf them in a way that wouldn't cripple terran early game vs 4 gate or ling/baneling all-ins.
Considerations you raise are important but same were not given when toss was nerfed over and over. VR DPS Needs to come back. Terran can't hide in base teching with just marines and tanks when a VR is doing 41.6 DPS on front door. 3 gate VR killed this build.
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On August 22 2011 08:33 harhar! wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:26 Huntz wrote:Remember when everyone thought Roach zergling all in was unstoppable? Then MC showed us how to counter it. Everyone is just overreacting and eventually people will know how to start countering it better Yeah, except MC is just losing to this. huk 20 fe is pretty damn safe against many things, that terran can do earlygame. also i would love to see some fucking numbers that actually support what ppl say. shouldnt the winrate of t v p be extremely high right now? Well its been said before GSL winrate of the 1-1-1 is about 90%. The july winrates for TvP in Korea have protoss at like 34% and August will probably be worse u got some reliabale informant or what? just gsl is waaaaaaaaay to few games to make any comment. even ladder is better. im pretty sure the koreans will adapt to it very quickly.
Rough versions of the build have been around since beta...now that it's more refined it's been around for like 2 months. There is no adapting. We're talking about MC. The best protoss, most successful, and arguably most innovative player. He has no answer for it. No one consistently does.
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On August 22 2011 06:20 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. Exactly.
Except of course than staying 1 base vs terran loses you the game right then and there vs the 1/1/1. They'll just contain you and expo themselves and you'll stand no chance of a comeback unless terran makes a huge blunder.
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I've seen MVP 1/1/1 and roll face more times than I care to count on Huk's stream.
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On August 22 2011 08:32 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:27 illsick wrote:On August 22 2011 08:24 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:20 Toadvine wrote:On August 22 2011 08:09 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:05 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:47 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:06 hugman wrote:
Even if Tyler isn't among the top pros he's still better than anyone else in this thread so why even begin to question his knowledge? If he can't debate then no one else can Tyler is a great player, no doubt, but I still hold the opinions of IMMvp, Alicia, Killer and the other Code S/A players who have said this build needs patching over his. Okay, just to lay to rest the IMMvp response to the allin. He is the terran that does it probably the least in Korea, so how does that give him the authority to comment on its balance? Little experience with the build usually results in rash conclusions about it. He does it the least precisely because he thinks it's broken and terran players shouldn't use it. Can you really not understand that? If he does it the least precisely, how is he the authority on it's balance though. He does it least precisely because he's a more macro player... meaning he has the least experience with it... meaning he's not the go-to-guy to determine how imbalanced it is. I'm nearly certain this is a troll at this point. Essentially claiming that you understand the state of the game better than MVP, that's just way overboard for it to be the typical Gold-level theorycrafting. Tyler stated the exact same things that I stated about 1-gate robo. so you credit tyler but discredit MVP, interesting.... Let me put this simply MvP-Stated he does not do the build because it discredits his wins. Tyler-Plays protoss in a metagame that has terrans doing 1-1-1 every other game. Tyler obviously has much more experience with it.
Tyler is also about 2 or 3 leagues below MVP in terms of skill and the players he plays against. Also, you can't read anything. Like 10 different people have told you that he does it in practice.
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u got some reliabale informant or what? just gsl is waaaaaaaaay to few games to make any comment. even ladder is better. im pretty sure the koreans will adapt to it very quickly.
What do you want, if not GSL or ladder? It's been a month and nothing has changed, except some things clearly don't work.
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EPT
