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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
I cant remember if this is correct because I dont play protoss but a while back, I believe a few caster said the best way to hold off the 1-1-1 was by making cannons right? Of course this was long LONG time ago and could of been a not as polished variation of the 1-1-1 as of today. Well if my memory is correct, how did this fall out of popularity.
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On August 22 2011 08:09 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:05 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:47 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:06 hugman wrote:
Even if Tyler isn't among the top pros he's still better than anyone else in this thread so why even begin to question his knowledge? If he can't debate then no one else can Tyler is a great player, no doubt, but I still hold the opinions of IMMvp, Alicia, Killer and the other Code S/A players who have said this build needs patching over his. Okay, just to lay to rest the IMMvp response to the allin. He is the terran that does it probably the least in Korea, so how does that give him the authority to comment on its balance? Little experience with the build usually results in rash conclusions about it. He does it the least precisely because he thinks it's broken and terran players shouldn't use it. Can you really not understand that? If he does it the least precisely, how is he the authority on it's balance though. He does it least precisely because he's a more macro player... meaning he has the least experience with it... meaning he's not the go-to-guy to determine how imbalanced it is.
And you base it on what, on games shown on TV, that are like 0,01 percent of the games he plays ? Also if we go by your logic no terran has anything to say about it as they know nothing about protoss, so we should trust protosses as they are the only ones that can say anything about it. And they all say what?
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On August 22 2011 08:09 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:05 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:47 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:06 hugman wrote:
Even if Tyler isn't among the top pros he's still better than anyone else in this thread so why even begin to question his knowledge? If he can't debate then no one else can Tyler is a great player, no doubt, but I still hold the opinions of IMMvp, Alicia, Killer and the other Code S/A players who have said this build needs patching over his. Okay, just to lay to rest the IMMvp response to the allin. He is the terran that does it probably the least in Korea, so how does that give him the authority to comment on its balance? Little experience with the build usually results in rash conclusions about it. He does it the least precisely because he thinks it's broken and terran players shouldn't use it. Can you really not understand that? If he does it the least precisely, how is he the authority on it's balance though. He does it least precisely because he's a more macro player... meaning he has the least experience with it... meaning he's not the go-to-guy to determine how imbalanced it is.
'Precisely because' not 'least precisely'. I'm not sure if you're just trolling at this point. Whatever, I guess you know better than all the pros in Korea.
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On August 22 2011 08:11 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:09 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:05 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:47 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:06 hugman wrote:
Even if Tyler isn't among the top pros he's still better than anyone else in this thread so why even begin to question his knowledge? If he can't debate then no one else can Tyler is a great player, no doubt, but I still hold the opinions of IMMvp, Alicia, Killer and the other Code S/A players who have said this build needs patching over his. Okay, just to lay to rest the IMMvp response to the allin. He is the terran that does it probably the least in Korea, so how does that give him the authority to comment on its balance? Little experience with the build usually results in rash conclusions about it. He does it the least precisely because he thinks it's broken and terran players shouldn't use it. Can you really not understand that? If he does it the least precisely, how is he the authority on it's balance though. He does it least precisely because he's a more macro player... meaning he has the least experience with it... meaning he's not the go-to-guy to determine how imbalanced it is. just because hes never shown it in televised games doesnt mean he hasnt used it in practice and THEN concluded its imbalance. i would assume MVP (probably the #1 terran in the world) would know what hes talking about
I agree about him being the #1 terran, but he NEVER allins. Yes, he knows the build but he most likely does it the least in korea. Meaning he has the least experience with it. (Like I noted in my post)
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On August 22 2011 08:12 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:07 illsick wrote:On August 22 2011 08:01 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:58 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:52 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:40 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:37 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:25 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:23 Medrea wrote:
[quote]
Robo openings often lose to 1-1-1 anyway.
I dunno man, how many have we seen recently at the highest level? I can't even think of one. It's just the metagame. We do not see them most likely because they were thrown out in practice by the Koreans already. Do you think they would not try such a simple thing ? We have no way of knowing that. All we know is 5-6 months ago when robo builds were popular, there were wayyy less 1-1-1 allins. That says something. No it actually does not say anything else than that they were not used. It was also a time when wg reasearch was shorter. Also since you responded before my edit, i will repeat. Why did you ignore this piece of information: On August 22 2011 06:23 CryingPoo wrote:On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. I will be suggesting GomTV to have an Artosis on Star2 Ready Action Program. Korean SC2 caster who claimed that 1/1/1 is dependable against Protoss with the exact build that Artosis claimed got BEATEN 5 times in a row by ST_SuperStar (also known as Random King) It was beaten by ST_SuperStar vs who? This is such vague information lol. How can you argue off that? The point was that it was tried on that show that OP takes his info from, so it is not like people forgot about robo play, which was your argument. Frankly it seems more and more like you ever read the OP even. Like I said before, seeing is believing. I won't believe that a 2-gate robo or 1-gate robo cannot beat it until I see that it cannot. This is considering that the protoss uses the scouting from the robo and responds correctly. I don't get what you are trying to say with this scouting thing. Say you know that the 1-1-1 is coming, what ways can you "respond" correctly. Keep in mind that the terran will have a raven so that the obs will either get sniped or not see the exact composition of army. Scout, Add 2 gates, deny bunkers, defensive concave. Expand AFTER you kill the push. I've explained this before.
This will not work...lol you NEED to expand. MAYBE 1 base colossi is the only other altnerative but that is questionable.
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On August 22 2011 08:10 paradox_ wrote:
What is frustrating is the complete inconsistency in how everything is being handled. Everyone said warp in storms are way too strong and that was nerfed (all other casters can insta use their aoe spells with upgrades except HT) etc. Toss all-in is too strong (4gate), WG timing gets nerfed. Terran all-ins keep coming up in the metagame in many different variations and nothing should be done about that? Zerg really hasn't ever had any all-ins that were impossible to hold if scouted. Same goes for Toss. All-ins once scouted early enough generally get stopped or atleast it goes down to who executes better. In the case of 111, MC and other toss' has had multiple games where they see it and still cant hold it off (not just talking about 1 engagement).
Terran early game has been nerfed more times than any other race. Reapers, depo before rax, conc. shells upg., bunker build time, stim research time etc.
WG timing got changed because of PvP (both in the beta and earlier this year). Since balance is generally quite good atm it's not good to rush for the nerfbat for a late-ish all-in, we need to give it some time.
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On August 22 2011 08:05 Hall0wed wrote:
Only question is how do we make Blizzard change Terran so they aren't so strong with these all-ins and even if Terran is changed what changes can be made to fix 1/1/1 but not weaken other Terran builds.
Orbitals rooted like PF would be one small step. Then you can't rely on mule-draining your main while doing a 1-base contain, and then simply float over to 1-base off your natural.
It would also solve half a hundred stalemate causing terran issues during base trades.
Might have to give it a different name, like "Planetary Command"
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On August 22 2011 07:52 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:49 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:40 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:37 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:25 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:23 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 07:22 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:18 JackDanger wrote:On August 22 2011 07:14 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:10 JackDanger wrote:
[quote]
What exactly makes you so certain of this.
Just from experience. Of course, nothing is so certain without a high level example. Since I haven't really seen any 2-gate robo builds at the highest level, we can just go back and fourth with no evidence. Which would be pointless. I would pose as evidence that this build has existed in some form since beta (though only in the forefront the last few months I suppose) and no viable counter, even blindly, has been successful. I would also say that 2-gate robo is/was a fairly standard build, and since it sounds good in theory, probably would have been one of the first responses attempted. There were many more robo openings in high level play about 5-6 months ago. The metagame then shifted to more FE openings for protoss. Terran have now realized this and are doing more 1-1-1 allins. Shouldn't the next shift in the metagame be robo openings? Robo openings often lose to 1-1-1 anyway. I dunno man, how many have we seen recently at the highest level? I can't even think of one. It's just the metagame. We do not see them most likely because they were thrown out in practice by the Koreans already. Do you think they would not try such a simple thing ? We have no way of knowing that. All we know is 5-6 months ago when robo builds were popular, there were wayyy less 1-1-1 allins. That says something. No it actually does not say anything else than that they were not used. It was also a time when wg reasearch was shorter. Also since you responded before my edit, i will repeat. Why did you ignore this piece of information: On August 22 2011 06:23 CryingPoo wrote:On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. I will be suggesting GomTV to have an Artosis on Star2 Ready Action Program. Korean SC2 caster who claimed that 1/1/1 is dependable against Protoss with the exact build that Artosis claimed got BEATEN 5 times in a row by ST_SuperStar (also known as Random King) It was beaten by ST_SuperStar vs who? This is such vague information lol. How can you argue off that?
I said a Korean GSL commentator his name is Dae-Man, Park who is considered to be one of the good playing commentator. I am not putting down Artosis by any means but he would have more knowledge on Korean server at least.
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Whats sad is that the defenders of 1/1/1 provide no useful insight and just say "quit ur balance whine qqqqqqqqqqqq".
There is just no build that can hold this (consistently - all-ins need counters..), sure, you may have held it "that one game" but the fact is Protoss are almost at the mercy of the Terran screwing up just to have a chance.
So much has been tried....fast stargate, void ray all-in, pheonix's, fast robo, 15 nexus, 1 gate expand, fast templars, fast blink, ect. ect.
Even if some of this worked a couple times - none of this is reliable. The all-in is way too high in reward and way too low in risk.
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On August 22 2011 08:09 DertoQq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:07 wklbishop wrote:
Ok... people who are talking about how it's BS that the 1-1-1 build all-in is unstoppable NEED TO READ THE OP because the OP lists the strats where the build can be defeated yet still continues on to as to why it's considered imbalanced DESPITE it being beatable. isn't the title of the thread : "Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea" ? What else do you want people to talk about ?
They're talking about why the 1-1-1 build isn't unstoppable, but the OP wants to talk about WHY it's considered imbalanced. The OP states that it is stoppable, but lists different reasons as to why it's imbalanced instead of saying it's unstoppable which some people (not all) seem to think is what th OP is saying.
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On August 22 2011 08:10 paradox_ wrote:
What is frustrating is the complete inconsistency in how everything is being handled. Everyone said warp in storms are way too strong and that was nerfed (all other casters can insta use their aoe spells with upgrades except HT) etc. Toss all-in is too strong (4gate), WG timing gets nerfed. Terran all-ins keep coming up in the metagame (reaper rushes, marine-scv etc) in many different variations and nothing should be done about that?
Uhh what?
Reapers have been nerfed, bunkers have been nerfed, mass repair has been nerfed, stim has been nerfed, they even made us build a depot before rax. All of these were in response to terrans doing all-ins, so obviously something has been "done about that".
I swear, some people have really selective memory.
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On August 22 2011 08:09 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:05 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:47 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:06 hugman wrote:
Even if Tyler isn't among the top pros he's still better than anyone else in this thread so why even begin to question his knowledge? If he can't debate then no one else can Tyler is a great player, no doubt, but I still hold the opinions of IMMvp, Alicia, Killer and the other Code S/A players who have said this build needs patching over his. Okay, just to lay to rest the IMMvp response to the allin. He is the terran that does it probably the least in Korea, so how does that give him the authority to comment on its balance? Little experience with the build usually results in rash conclusions about it. He does it the least precisely because he thinks it's broken and terran players shouldn't use it. Can you really not understand that? If he does it the least precisely, how is he the authority on it's balance though. He does it least precisely because he's a more macro player... meaning he has the least experience with it... meaning he's not the go-to-guy to determine how imbalanced it is.
because he's fucking MVP
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On August 22 2011 08:12 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:07 illsick wrote:On August 22 2011 08:01 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:58 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:52 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:40 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:37 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:25 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:23 Medrea wrote:
[quote]
Robo openings often lose to 1-1-1 anyway.
I dunno man, how many have we seen recently at the highest level? I can't even think of one. It's just the metagame. We do not see them most likely because they were thrown out in practice by the Koreans already. Do you think they would not try such a simple thing ? We have no way of knowing that. All we know is 5-6 months ago when robo builds were popular, there were wayyy less 1-1-1 allins. That says something. No it actually does not say anything else than that they were not used. It was also a time when wg reasearch was shorter. Also since you responded before my edit, i will repeat. Why did you ignore this piece of information: On August 22 2011 06:23 CryingPoo wrote:On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. I will be suggesting GomTV to have an Artosis on Star2 Ready Action Program. Korean SC2 caster who claimed that 1/1/1 is dependable against Protoss with the exact build that Artosis claimed got BEATEN 5 times in a row by ST_SuperStar (also known as Random King) It was beaten by ST_SuperStar vs who? This is such vague information lol. How can you argue off that? The point was that it was tried on that show that OP takes his info from, so it is not like people forgot about robo play, which was your argument. Frankly it seems more and more like you ever read the OP even. Like I said before, seeing is believing. I won't believe that a 2-gate robo or 1-gate robo cannot beat it until I see that it cannot. This is considering that the protoss uses the scouting from the robo and responds correctly. I don't get what you are trying to say with this scouting thing. Say you know that the 1-1-1 is coming, what ways can you "respond" correctly. Keep in mind that the terran will have a raven so that the obs will either get sniped or not see the exact composition of army. Scout, Add 2 gates, deny bunkers, defensive concave. Expand AFTER you kill the push. I've explained this before.
Your obs is dead and the push never comes because terran already expanded long ago. But frankly you are dead even if the push comes so it does not matter.
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I haven't had any trouble with 1-1-1.
With probe at 3:20 I can see if he's doing gasless expand, 1rax FE, or 2gate aggression. If he isn't doing any of these things, I assume 1-1-1 and 1gate FE. I put down robo at 6:30 and chrono out observer. I cut probes about the time I start observer and place 2 gates (total of 5). I have 5 stalkers and the observer out in time to hold of banshee harass if he decides to do so. Otherwise I have a decent amount of time to churn out a lot of zealots before the push hits.
The problem I can see, even though it hasn't happened to me yet, is if they are doing a barracks all-in instead, in which case my 1gate FE would just die. Which makes me wonder...
can a 3gate expand still hold off an optimal 1-1-1? I realize 1gate FE would be better, but for the sake of safety... If people can start holding off 1-1-1 opening 3gate expand, then the coinflip would be removed for the mostpart.
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Remember when everyone thought Roach zergling all in was unstoppable? Then MC showed us how to counter it. Everyone is just overreacting and eventually people will know how to start countering it better
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On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing.
I was actually just wondering about 1 gate star and going phoenix. I remember jinro a long time ago when he lost to hongun to a proxy star he said he had no idea how to stop a lot of phoenix. I know marines do well against them but phoenix can be used a scout (expensive I know) but they can aid you in battle by lifting siege tanks and sniping banshees. I play zerg though so it's all theory craft but if tyler says it's possible then maybe it is.
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On August 22 2011 08:14 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:09 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:05 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:47 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:06 hugman wrote:
Even if Tyler isn't among the top pros he's still better than anyone else in this thread so why even begin to question his knowledge? If he can't debate then no one else can Tyler is a great player, no doubt, but I still hold the opinions of IMMvp, Alicia, Killer and the other Code S/A players who have said this build needs patching over his. Okay, just to lay to rest the IMMvp response to the allin. He is the terran that does it probably the least in Korea, so how does that give him the authority to comment on its balance? Little experience with the build usually results in rash conclusions about it. He does it the least precisely because he thinks it's broken and terran players shouldn't use it. Can you really not understand that? If he does it the least precisely, how is he the authority on it's balance though. He does it least precisely because he's a more macro player... meaning he has the least experience with it... meaning he's not the go-to-guy to determine how imbalanced it is. 'Precisely because' not 'least precisely'. I'm not sure if you're just trolling at this point. Whatever, I guess you know better than all the pros in Korea.
When did I ever say I know more than a korean pro? I'm saying that people should heed Tyler's post about it more than they heed MvP's comment on it. Clearly Tyler has more experience with it if MvP never does it.
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On August 22 2011 08:03 wklbishop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:56 harhar! wrote:
i dont see how the destiny cloud fist is imba. i practiced it often with my master buddy online and it nearly never won against his huks fe. make it weaker and the build is all shitty. zealots+immortals deal with tank marine just fine and after the battle is over warp in some stalkers to kill the remaining banshees. and then the terran is stuck with a useless factory, which is pretty much worthless against toss... Dude read the OP. Show nested quote +As a Protoss player there are two possible ways to hold off 1/1/1.
1. 15 Nexus
2. 1 Gate into an expo Huk's FE is a blind counter already to the 1-1-1. Show nested quote +So sum up, 1/1/1 is possible to defend against using above 2 strategies however that leave Protoss vulnerable for other Terran builds which Protoss can only figure out by guessing. Seriously, read the rest of the OP before you comment and it'll explain why because it describes the two builds that stop it yet at the same time why even if it could be stopped, it's considered imbalance in Korea.
huk 20 fe is pretty damn safe against many things, that terran can do earlygame. also i would love to see some fucking numbers that actually support what ppl say. shouldnt the winrate of t v p be extremely high right now?
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On August 22 2011 05:55 MeanMike wrote:
master P here, it requires minimal skill to pull off and has a 90%+ winrate, seems pretty imbalanced to me.
User was warned for this post
Grand master player here... Oh wait, that doesn't have to be true. You seem extremely biased in your opinion. I am a protoss player in masters as well, and I don't think the build is that OP.
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On August 22 2011 08:13 SheaR619 wrote:
I cant remember if this is correct because I dont play protoss but a while back, I believe a few caster said the best way to hold off the 1-1-1 was by making cannons right? Of course this was long LONG time ago and could of been a not as polished variation of the 1-1-1 as of today. Well if my memory is correct, how did this fall out of popularity.
111 uses marines/siege tanks. No way in hell you are going to hold.
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EPT
