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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
Problem with this build is you know 100% it's coming and you can't do anything about it. It's not like 4 gates, DTs rush, VRs or robo all-in which easily counter by scouting. Protoss just doesn't have any answer to it.
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for all the people talking about him being a practice partner of flash, its true - but BW players usually had a bajillion practice partners, being one didn't mean you were a god among men
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On August 22 2011 07:48 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:45 lizzuma wrote:
It's just as low risk high reward as many other protoss all ins. I have died to 4 gates and 6 gates that didn't "kill" me because the opponent microed well and killed many repairing SCVs. In Puzzle vs Scfou (IIRC) on crossfire we saw a 3 gate void build turn into contain and expand. Hell, even DT drops which may not be all in can do considerably low damage and still come out decently.
I think it's like tyler said way back, you don't need to necessarily go so economically greedy early on. 1 gate phoenix openings can hardcounter this pretty bad. As T, if you dont get early banshee harass kills you could be in trouble. and you CAN scout for cloak with your initial phoenix.
The issue still is that it becomes hard for Protoss if Terran decides to hint towards this build and do another. But i don't see a problem with that at all. This situation exists in many ways in all the matchups. Not true. Best Zergs and Best Terrans laugh at 4 gates. Best protoss lose habitually to 1/1/1. Stop talking about yourself, balance doesn't matter to us. MC or PuMa could beat us with any race any unit comp he wanted.
yes, we are only talking about the highest level of gameplay where if a strategy looks almost unbeatable, something is truly wrong. Anyone not in grandmasters or rank 1 masters cannot discuss their personal hardships on ladder.
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On August 22 2011 07:49 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:40 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:37 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:25 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:23 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 07:22 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:18 JackDanger wrote:On August 22 2011 07:14 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:10 JackDanger wrote:On August 22 2011 07:07 Razuik wrote:
[quote]
I'm quite certain that 3-gate robo wrecks the 1-1-1 allin unless you engage in a TERRIBLE position or let him bunker up (which there is no reason you should let him). What exactly makes you so certain of this. Just from experience. Of course, nothing is so certain without a high level example. Since I haven't really seen any 2-gate robo builds at the highest level, we can just go back and fourth with no evidence. Which would be pointless. I would pose as evidence that this build has existed in some form since beta (though only in the forefront the last few months I suppose) and no viable counter, even blindly, has been successful. I would also say that 2-gate robo is/was a fairly standard build, and since it sounds good in theory, probably would have been one of the first responses attempted. There were many more robo openings in high level play about 5-6 months ago. The metagame then shifted to more FE openings for protoss. Terran have now realized this and are doing more 1-1-1 allins. Shouldn't the next shift in the metagame be robo openings? Robo openings often lose to 1-1-1 anyway. I dunno man, how many have we seen recently at the highest level? I can't even think of one. It's just the metagame. We do not see them most likely because they were thrown out in practice by the Koreans already. Do you think they would not try such a simple thing ? We have no way of knowing that. All we know is 5-6 months ago when robo builds were popular, there were wayyy less 1-1-1 allins. That says something. No it actually does not say anything else than that they were not used. It was also a time when wg reasearch was shorter. Also since you responded before my edit, i will repeat. Why did you ignore this piece of information: Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:23 CryingPoo wrote:On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. I will be suggesting GomTV to have an Artosis on Star2 Ready Action Program. Korean SC2 caster who claimed that 1/1/1 is dependable against Protoss with the exact build that Artosis claimed got BEATEN 5 times in a row by ST_SuperStar (also known as Random King)
It was beaten by ST_SuperStar vs who? This is such vague information lol. How can you argue off that?
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On August 22 2011 07:37 fds wrote:
I am not convinced that 1/1/1 build is THAT unstoppable.
suggestion:
-You poke with zealot and see reactor on rax. = no (fast) marauders.
-It should be safe to poke with stalker as there is no slow. If you see bunker terran may fast tech or expand. It is very unlikely he will do 3rax all-in.
-if you see bunker = its stargate "cheese" time. add proxy starport and cb void rays. Marines can't have stim as there was no fast techlab.
-with decent micro you should be able to kill terran right away or at least force him to make faster siege mode and vikings. = he can't have cloak = no need for robo.
-if terran gets siege mode before you break his defence move back and exp. add extra gateways.
-I think decent zealot/sentry/vr combo should be OK to deal with terran's 1/1/1 build. If he makes something else (exp after your attack) this is no longer 1/1/1 attack!
(I have to confess i am not a pro-level player. So on my level its not the strategy that wins my games but amount of mistakes my enemy and I make.)
Seeing 1 rax with reactor and bunker can mean a lot of things and not necessarily a 1-1-1. He could be going 2 rax fe or 3 rax push and makes a bunker just to mess with you. You expand and make a robo and play blind until you get the obs. Depending on what you see you start preparing, but often times you can't react quickly enough, if it's indeed a 1-1-1.
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Maybe the stargate is the answer, but I'm not sure since there will be a startport that can crank out a 9 range viking. Sadly the warpgate nerf makes 3gate stargate a lot weaker than back in GSL 3 
I wanna see good Protosses try and hod it off with stargate play. Please
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Any low-masters in NA wanna 1-1-1 me? Just PM me don't post in thread. Before I continue this conversation I want to be fully enriched with knowledge.
I am thinking that knowing the 1-1-1 is coming beforehand is not the problem. Not knowing its various lead-outs and fakes is.
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i dont see how the destiny cloud fist is imba. i practiced it often with my master buddy online and it nearly never won against his huks fe. make it weaker and the build is all shitty. zealots+immortals deal with tank marine just fine and after the battle is over warp in some stalkers to kill the remaining banshees. and then the terran is stuck with a useless factory, which is pretty much worthless against toss...
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The Korean Protosses are probably getting Terrans to do this over and over to them in practice games.. I'm sure that soon enough they will find an answer
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On August 22 2011 07:56 harhar! wrote:
i dont see how the destiny cloud fist is imba. i practiced it often with my master buddy online and it nearly never won against his huks fe. make it weaker and the build is all shitty. zealots+immortals deal with tank marine just fine and after the battle is over warp in some stalkers to kill the remaining banshees. and then the terran is stuck with a useless factory, which is pretty much worthless against toss...
Yea man now go to korea and win the GSL
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On August 22 2011 07:52 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:49 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:40 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:37 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:25 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:23 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 07:22 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:18 JackDanger wrote:On August 22 2011 07:14 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:10 JackDanger wrote:
[quote]
What exactly makes you so certain of this.
Just from experience. Of course, nothing is so certain without a high level example. Since I haven't really seen any 2-gate robo builds at the highest level, we can just go back and fourth with no evidence. Which would be pointless. I would pose as evidence that this build has existed in some form since beta (though only in the forefront the last few months I suppose) and no viable counter, even blindly, has been successful. I would also say that 2-gate robo is/was a fairly standard build, and since it sounds good in theory, probably would have been one of the first responses attempted. There were many more robo openings in high level play about 5-6 months ago. The metagame then shifted to more FE openings for protoss. Terran have now realized this and are doing more 1-1-1 allins. Shouldn't the next shift in the metagame be robo openings? Robo openings often lose to 1-1-1 anyway. I dunno man, how many have we seen recently at the highest level? I can't even think of one. It's just the metagame. We do not see them most likely because they were thrown out in practice by the Koreans already. Do you think they would not try such a simple thing ? We have no way of knowing that. All we know is 5-6 months ago when robo builds were popular, there were wayyy less 1-1-1 allins. That says something. No it actually does not say anything else than that they were not used. It was also a time when wg reasearch was shorter. Also since you responded before my edit, i will repeat. Why did you ignore this piece of information: On August 22 2011 06:23 CryingPoo wrote:On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. I will be suggesting GomTV to have an Artosis on Star2 Ready Action Program. Korean SC2 caster who claimed that 1/1/1 is dependable against Protoss with the exact build that Artosis claimed got BEATEN 5 times in a row by ST_SuperStar (also known as Random King) It was beaten by ST_SuperStar vs who? This is such vague information lol. How can you argue off that?
The point was that it was tried on that show that OP takes his info from, so it is not like people forgot about robo play, which was your argument.
Frankly it seems more and more like you ever read the OP even.
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On August 22 2011 07:57 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
The Korean Protosses are probably getting Terrans to do this over and over to them in practice games.. I'm sure that soon enough they will find an answer
answer found by MC : go DTs on 1 base, try to force a base trade, snipe the raven and win the game. Great hu ? : D
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On August 22 2011 07:58 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:52 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:40 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:37 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:25 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:23 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 07:22 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:18 JackDanger wrote:On August 22 2011 07:14 Razuik wrote:
[quote]
Just from experience. Of course, nothing is so certain without a high level example. Since I haven't really seen any 2-gate robo builds at the highest level, we can just go back and fourth with no evidence. Which would be pointless. I would pose as evidence that this build has existed in some form since beta (though only in the forefront the last few months I suppose) and no viable counter, even blindly, has been successful. I would also say that 2-gate robo is/was a fairly standard build, and since it sounds good in theory, probably would have been one of the first responses attempted. There were many more robo openings in high level play about 5-6 months ago. The metagame then shifted to more FE openings for protoss. Terran have now realized this and are doing more 1-1-1 allins. Shouldn't the next shift in the metagame be robo openings? Robo openings often lose to 1-1-1 anyway. I dunno man, how many have we seen recently at the highest level? I can't even think of one. It's just the metagame. We do not see them most likely because they were thrown out in practice by the Koreans already. Do you think they would not try such a simple thing ? We have no way of knowing that. All we know is 5-6 months ago when robo builds were popular, there were wayyy less 1-1-1 allins. That says something. No it actually does not say anything else than that they were not used. It was also a time when wg reasearch was shorter. Also since you responded before my edit, i will repeat. Why did you ignore this piece of information: On August 22 2011 06:23 CryingPoo wrote:On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. I will be suggesting GomTV to have an Artosis on Star2 Ready Action Program. Korean SC2 caster who claimed that 1/1/1 is dependable against Protoss with the exact build that Artosis claimed got BEATEN 5 times in a row by ST_SuperStar (also known as Random King) It was beaten by ST_SuperStar vs who? This is such vague information lol. How can you argue off that? The point was that it was tried on that show that OP takes his info from, so it is not like people forgot about robo play, which was your argument. Frankly it seems more and more like you ever read the OP even.
Like I said before, seeing is believing. I won't believe that a 2-gate robo or 1-gate robo cannot beat it until I see that it cannot. This is considering that the protoss uses the scouting from the robo and responds correctly.
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On August 22 2011 07:59 DertoQq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:57 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
The Korean Protosses are probably getting Terrans to do this over and over to them in practice games.. I'm sure that soon enough they will find an answer answer found by MC : go DTs on 1 base, try to force a base trade, snipe the raven and win the game. Great hu ? : D
I can't be the only one who though MC responded kinda badly in game 3?
He had every possible tech by the end of it, but barely any units.
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2 gates and a proxy robo rush is very good against many terran build included 1-1-1, they cant get their timming on.
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I think like with any strat that involves a contain, the key is counter pressure. Yeah, the 111 is a strong killing strat, but the Terran still can't do anything if they can't go up the ramp. Also, as was noted, Protoss will run out of minerals if on one base too long (duh). But I think that Protoss doesn't need as much mineral income as other races to produce a big army (think 4 gate). I think the key to dealing with contain type strats is to not overcommit to mining on one base (don't saturate), build a warp prism or two, and put on counter pressure. The strat where you warp in zealots and a sentry and force field their ramp so they can't reinforce. This might not be a killing move, but it can definitely help you catch up on workers, as well as force them to pull their army back. Just something to think about. Obviously it's not fool proof, but it's something to try.
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On August 22 2011 07:56 harhar! wrote:
i dont see how the destiny cloud fist is imba. i practiced it often with my master buddy online and it nearly never won against his huks fe. make it weaker and the build is all shitty. zealots+immortals deal with tank marine just fine and after the battle is over warp in some stalkers to kill the remaining banshees. and then the terran is stuck with a useless factory, which is pretty much worthless against toss...
Dude read the OP.
As a Protoss player there are two possible ways to hold off 1/1/1.
1. 15 Nexus
2. 1 Gate into an expo
Huk's FE is a blind counter already to the 1-1-1.
So sum up, 1/1/1 is possible to defend against using above 2 strategies however that leave Protoss vulnerable for other Terran builds which Protoss can only figure out by guessing.
Seriously, read the rest of the OP before you comment and it'll explain why because it describes the two builds that stop it yet at the same time why even if it could be stopped, it's considered imbalance in Korea.
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On August 22 2011 07:37 fds wrote:
I am not convinced that 1/1/1 build is THAT unstoppable.
suggestion:
-You poke with zealot and see reactor on rax. = no (fast) marauders.
-It should be safe to poke with stalker as there is no slow. If you see bunker terran may fast tech or expand. It is very unlikely he will do 3rax all-in.
-if you see bunker = its stargate "cheese" time. add proxy starport and cb void rays. Marines can't have stim as there was no fast techlab.
-with decent micro you should be able to kill terran right away or at least force him to make faster siege mode and vikings. = he can't have cloak = no need for robo.
-if terran gets siege mode before you break his defence move back and exp. add extra gateways.
-I think decent zealot/sentry/vr combo should be OK to deal with terran's 1/1/1 build. If he makes something else (exp after your attack) this is no longer 1/1/1 attack!
(I have to confess i am not a pro-level player. So on my level its not the strategy that wins my games but amount of mistakes my enemy and I make.)
1. They dont need to make a reactor to do 1/1/1 with Raven 1/1/1 you especially don't make one
2. You could see a trick bunker (not relevant for the sake of this argument)
3. Say you go stargate, and he will make a viking after a banshee and with cloak, kills all your workers
Even with your solution, Terran still has the dominant strategy given what Protoss can do
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try fleet beacon tech
User was temp banned for this post.
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Hmm. I'm sure for right now its a meta-game issue, and much less a "imbalanced" issue. I'm a zerg player, but I hope you guys the best of luck in figuring it out (so you don't focuse on PvZ) :D
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EPT
