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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 22 2011 07:33 VPGeneralHans wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:31 city42 wrote:On August 22 2011 07:29 VPGeneralHans wrote:On August 22 2011 07:26 city42 wrote:On August 22 2011 07:24 VPGeneralHans wrote:
1 gate FE into chargelot archon = 90% win rate
their banshees should have a lot of energy so you can feedback and morph archons and chargelot archon would beat marine tank, as long as you dont allow tons of bunkers to get up
it also allows for good counter after their 1/1/1 fails, no way the will have ghosts. you can expand again, get storm and drop robo etc but once the 1/1/1 fails it should be over That deals with cloak...how exactly? they cant afford cloak, if they got cloak thered be no tanks, like its been said, there are variations. but if they get cloak, 1 gate robo should be a decent enough counter, adding on extra gates etc I take it you didn't watch MC vs. Puma game 1 then. no I did not, I'd have to watch that to comment on a 1/1/1 youre discussing. If he has cloak and siege tanks he must have delayed it to be a stronger push etc
It comes only slightly later when the Terrans get cloak. So what you're suggesting is a huge coinflip by banking on Terrans not getting cloak. No thanks.
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On August 22 2011 07:35 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:33 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:31 city42 wrote:On August 22 2011 07:29 VPGeneralHans wrote:On August 22 2011 07:26 city42 wrote:On August 22 2011 07:24 VPGeneralHans wrote:
1 gate FE into chargelot archon = 90% win rate
their banshees should have a lot of energy so you can feedback and morph archons and chargelot archon would beat marine tank, as long as you dont allow tons of bunkers to get up
it also allows for good counter after their 1/1/1 fails, no way the will have ghosts. you can expand again, get storm and drop robo etc but once the 1/1/1 fails it should be over That deals with cloak...how exactly? they cant afford cloak, if they got cloak thered be no tanks, like its been said, there are variations. but if they get cloak, 1 gate robo should be a decent enough counter, adding on extra gates etc I take it you didn't watch MC vs. Puma game 1 then. He did a 1-gate expand on that game.. What does that have to do with anything?
You can scout his 1-1-1 allin and then properly add 2 more gates.
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I am not convinced that 1/1/1 build is THAT unstoppable.
suggestion:
-You poke with zealot and see reactor on rax. = no (fast) marauders.
-It should be safe to poke with stalker as there is no slow. If you see bunker terran may fast tech or expand. It is very unlikely he will do 3rax all-in.
-if you see bunker = its stargate "cheese" time. add proxy starport and cb void rays. Marines can't have stim as there was no fast techlab.
-with decent micro you should be able to kill terran right away or at least force him to make faster siege mode and vikings. = he can't have cloak = no need for robo.
-if terran gets siege mode before you break his defence move back and exp. add extra gateways.
-I think decent zealot/sentry/vr combo should be OK to deal with terran's 1/1/1 build. If he makes something else (exp after your attack) this is no longer 1/1/1 attack!
(I have to confess i am not a pro-level player. So on my level its not the strategy that wins my games but amount of mistakes my enemy and I make.)
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On August 22 2011 07:25 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:23 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 07:22 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:18 JackDanger wrote:On August 22 2011 07:14 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:10 JackDanger wrote:On August 22 2011 07:07 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:04 blooblooblahblah wrote:On August 22 2011 07:00 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:56 Medrea wrote:
[quote]
You can't say 1 gate FE is too greedy when it has the best chances of holding it off though. You really can't 1 base the terran back, you'll get choked out in the mid game. If you one base colossus , the terran will see it before committing to the 1-1-1 anyway.
There does not have to be a mid game if you beat his push... You can just kill him outright. Even if you only come out a little ahead in the battle and cannot counter attack, you still have more workers and more units which can set you up for a better midgame. This would be true if there was a reactive 1base build tht could actually hold it off. I'm quite certain that 3-gate robo wrecks the 1-1-1 allin unless you engage in a TERRIBLE position or let him bunker up (which there is no reason you should let him). What exactly makes you so certain of this. Just from experience. Of course, nothing is so certain without a high level example. Since I haven't really seen any 2-gate robo builds at the highest level, we can just go back and fourth with no evidence. Which would be pointless. I would pose as evidence that this build has existed in some form since beta (though only in the forefront the last few months I suppose) and no viable counter, even blindly, has been successful. I would also say that 2-gate robo is/was a fairly standard build, and since it sounds good in theory, probably would have been one of the first responses attempted. There were many more robo openings in high level play about 5-6 months ago. The metagame then shifted to more FE openings for protoss. Terran have now realized this and are doing more 1-1-1 allins. Shouldn't the next shift in the metagame be robo openings? Robo openings often lose to 1-1-1 anyway. I dunno man, how many have we seen recently at the highest level? I can't even think of one. It's just the metagame.
We do not see them most likely because they were thrown out in practice by the Koreans already. Do you think they would not try such a simple thing ?
Also why did you ignore this piece of information:
On August 22 2011 06:23 CryingPoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. I will be suggesting GomTV to have an Artosis on Star2 Ready Action Program. Korean SC2 caster who claimed that 1/1/1 is dependable against Protoss with the exact build that Artosis claimed got BEATEN 5 times in a row by ST_SuperStar (also known as Random King)
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The guy made a good practice partner in BW not much else. He didn't amount to much when under the spotlight and MC was still trying to climb the ranks in MBC. ;/
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I remember when every terran was like....so(ooooo) scared of protoss at the gsl that nobody wanted to pick the protosses during selections. Protoss seems sad that their 2 gate robo isn't the safest opener  .
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Is it just me or do foreigners very rarely use and succeed with this strat? Only one I can think of is Thorzain.
Its weird to have such an "overpowered" build abused just by Koreans. Are the foreigners simply not good enough at executing it?
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On August 22 2011 07:36 Gatored wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:33 VPGeneralHans wrote:On August 22 2011 07:31 city42 wrote:On August 22 2011 07:29 VPGeneralHans wrote:On August 22 2011 07:26 city42 wrote:On August 22 2011 07:24 VPGeneralHans wrote:
1 gate FE into chargelot archon = 90% win rate
their banshees should have a lot of energy so you can feedback and morph archons and chargelot archon would beat marine tank, as long as you dont allow tons of bunkers to get up
it also allows for good counter after their 1/1/1 fails, no way the will have ghosts. you can expand again, get storm and drop robo etc but once the 1/1/1 fails it should be over That deals with cloak...how exactly? they cant afford cloak, if they got cloak thered be no tanks, like its been said, there are variations. but if they get cloak, 1 gate robo should be a decent enough counter, adding on extra gates etc I take it you didn't watch MC vs. Puma game 1 then. no I did not, I'd have to watch that to comment on a 1/1/1 youre discussing. If he has cloak and siege tanks he must have delayed it to be a stronger push etc It comes only slightly later when the Terrans get cloak. So what you're suggesting is a huge coinflip by banking on Terrans not getting cloak. No thanks.
there are variations to everything, I'd really have to test out a couple more things tho, works against gm NA terrans so far for moi.
fast collsi can be more viable I suppose
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On August 22 2011 07:37 fds wrote:
I am not convinced that 1/1/1 build is THAT unstoppable.
suggestion:
-You poke with zealot and see reactor on rax. = no (fast) marauders.
-It should be safe to poke with stalker as there is no slow. If you see bunker terran may fast tech or expand. It is very unlikely he will do 3rax all-in.
-if you see bunker = its stargate "cheese" time. add proxy starport and cb void rays. Marines can't have stim as there was no fast techlab.
-with decent micro you should be able to kill terran right away or at least force him to make faster siege mode and vikings. = he can't have cloak = no need for robo.
-if terran gets siege mode before you break his defence move back and exp. add extra gateways.
-I think decent zealot/sentry/vr combo should be OK to deal with terran's 1/1/1 build. If he makes something else (exp after your attack) this is no longer 1/1/1 attack!
(I have to confess i am not a pro-level player. So on my level its not the strategy that wins my games but amount of mistakes my enemy and I make.)
Beating a 1 base all in by all inning your self just because you saw a reactor and a bunker (which puma showed on game 2, only he 1 rax expod) is terrible game design by Blizzard and they should fix the game regardless. Watching 1 base vs 1 base is just boring boring boring.
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imba imba world . Ahh all I feel like I can do pvt is chargelot archon because I can sometimes hold this if they engage poorly and I spread my shit.
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On August 22 2011 07:37 StarStruck wrote:
The guy made a good practice partner in BW not much else. He didn't amount to much when under the spotlight and MC was still trying to climb the ranks in MBC. ;/
He was the most sought out practice partner in BW and all killed Team Air Force or whatever. According to liquidipedia anyway  But we're getting side tracked! We must find a way :'(
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On August 22 2011 07:37 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:25 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:23 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 07:22 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:18 JackDanger wrote:On August 22 2011 07:14 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:10 JackDanger wrote:On August 22 2011 07:07 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:04 blooblooblahblah wrote:On August 22 2011 07:00 Razuik wrote:
[quote]
There does not have to be a mid game if you beat his push... You can just kill him outright. Even if you only come out a little ahead in the battle and cannot counter attack, you still have more workers and more units which can set you up for a better midgame. This would be true if there was a reactive 1base build tht could actually hold it off. I'm quite certain that 3-gate robo wrecks the 1-1-1 allin unless you engage in a TERRIBLE position or let him bunker up (which there is no reason you should let him). What exactly makes you so certain of this. Just from experience. Of course, nothing is so certain without a high level example. Since I haven't really seen any 2-gate robo builds at the highest level, we can just go back and fourth with no evidence. Which would be pointless. I would pose as evidence that this build has existed in some form since beta (though only in the forefront the last few months I suppose) and no viable counter, even blindly, has been successful. I would also say that 2-gate robo is/was a fairly standard build, and since it sounds good in theory, probably would have been one of the first responses attempted. There were many more robo openings in high level play about 5-6 months ago. The metagame then shifted to more FE openings for protoss. Terran have now realized this and are doing more 1-1-1 allins. Shouldn't the next shift in the metagame be robo openings? Robo openings often lose to 1-1-1 anyway. I dunno man, how many have we seen recently at the highest level? I can't even think of one. It's just the metagame. We do not see them most likely because they were thrown out in practice by the Koreans already. Do you think they would not try such a simple thing ?
We have no way of knowing that. All we know is 5-6 months ago when robo builds were popular, there were wayyy less 1-1-1 allins. That says something.
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Obviously this isn't a solution to the build or something to rely on but most of the time on 2 player maps or if you're not unlucky with spawns on 4 player maps, with your scouting probe you can get into a terran's base and gas steal yet i've not seen a gas steal against terran for because they can just go bio when it happens. This however just stops them doing 1/1/1 or at least an effective 1/1/1 and increases the chance of them playing straight up.
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On August 22 2011 07:40 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:37 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:25 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:23 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 07:22 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:18 JackDanger wrote:On August 22 2011 07:14 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:10 JackDanger wrote:On August 22 2011 07:07 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:04 blooblooblahblah wrote:
[quote]
This would be true if there was a reactive 1base build tht could actually hold it off.
I'm quite certain that 3-gate robo wrecks the 1-1-1 allin unless you engage in a TERRIBLE position or let him bunker up (which there is no reason you should let him). What exactly makes you so certain of this. Just from experience. Of course, nothing is so certain without a high level example. Since I haven't really seen any 2-gate robo builds at the highest level, we can just go back and fourth with no evidence. Which would be pointless. I would pose as evidence that this build has existed in some form since beta (though only in the forefront the last few months I suppose) and no viable counter, even blindly, has been successful. I would also say that 2-gate robo is/was a fairly standard build, and since it sounds good in theory, probably would have been one of the first responses attempted. There were many more robo openings in high level play about 5-6 months ago. The metagame then shifted to more FE openings for protoss. Terran have now realized this and are doing more 1-1-1 allins. Shouldn't the next shift in the metagame be robo openings? Robo openings often lose to 1-1-1 anyway. I dunno man, how many have we seen recently at the highest level? I can't even think of one. It's just the metagame. We do not see them most likely because they were thrown out in practice by the Koreans already. Do you think they would not try such a simple thing ? We have no way of knowing that. All we know is 5-6 months ago when robo builds were popular, there were wayyy less 1-1-1 allins. That says something.
5-6 months ago protoss had KA, faster warp gates, extra pylon radius.
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On August 22 2011 07:33 VPGeneralHans wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:31 city42 wrote:On August 22 2011 07:29 VPGeneralHans wrote:On August 22 2011 07:26 city42 wrote:On August 22 2011 07:24 VPGeneralHans wrote:
1 gate FE into chargelot archon = 90% win rate
their banshees should have a lot of energy so you can feedback and morph archons and chargelot archon would beat marine tank, as long as you dont allow tons of bunkers to get up
it also allows for good counter after their 1/1/1 fails, no way the will have ghosts. you can expand again, get storm and drop robo etc but once the 1/1/1 fails it should be over That deals with cloak...how exactly? they cant afford cloak, if they got cloak thered be no tanks, like its been said, there are variations. but if they get cloak, 1 gate robo should be a decent enough counter, adding on extra gates etc I take it you didn't watch MC vs. Puma game 1 then. no I did not, I'd have to watch that to comment on a 1/1/1 youre discussing. If he has cloak and siege tanks he must have delayed it to be a stronger push etc
I am pretty sure most of us here have watched the MC v Puma game from today's IEM tournament and that is probably why threads like this have exploded so much.
The build does have tons of variatons, but you can get cloak and siege tanks out, and the timing is typically around 10 minutes(the timing which puma hit), which could be considered as a delayed but stronger push, as I've seen some pushes hit as early as 9 minutes. The cloak push is designed to force a protoss into getting a robo or doing significant probe damage if the protoss is going for a 6gate or tempelar tech. I know for sure that a chargelot archon will hold off a 1/1/1 but the problem is surviving long enough to get there. If you see his cloak banshee killing probes off and you don't have a robo out and done, you could lose the game right then and there. Also, if you go tempelar tech with robo for obs, your tempelar could be either smaller in number or slightly delayed.
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The answer is obvious, wait for Bisu to switch, he will lead Protoss to the promise land.
/wishful thinking
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On August 22 2011 07:41 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:40 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:37 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:25 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:23 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 07:22 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:18 JackDanger wrote:On August 22 2011 07:14 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:10 JackDanger wrote:On August 22 2011 07:07 Razuik wrote:
[quote]
I'm quite certain that 3-gate robo wrecks the 1-1-1 allin unless you engage in a TERRIBLE position or let him bunker up (which there is no reason you should let him). What exactly makes you so certain of this. Just from experience. Of course, nothing is so certain without a high level example. Since I haven't really seen any 2-gate robo builds at the highest level, we can just go back and fourth with no evidence. Which would be pointless. I would pose as evidence that this build has existed in some form since beta (though only in the forefront the last few months I suppose) and no viable counter, even blindly, has been successful. I would also say that 2-gate robo is/was a fairly standard build, and since it sounds good in theory, probably would have been one of the first responses attempted. There were many more robo openings in high level play about 5-6 months ago. The metagame then shifted to more FE openings for protoss. Terran have now realized this and are doing more 1-1-1 allins. Shouldn't the next shift in the metagame be robo openings? Robo openings often lose to 1-1-1 anyway. I dunno man, how many have we seen recently at the highest level? I can't even think of one. It's just the metagame. We do not see them most likely because they were thrown out in practice by the Koreans already. Do you think they would not try such a simple thing ? We have no way of knowing that. All we know is 5-6 months ago when robo builds were popular, there were wayyy less 1-1-1 allins. That says something. 5-6 months ago protoss had KA, faster warp gates, extra pylon radius.
Its nice that u remember all these facts but can u point to any of these factors being for sure the reason 111 is stronger now?
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Would like a 10 gate stalker rush work? Depends on the bunker timing I guess
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Its weird to have such an "overpowered" build abused just by Koreans. Are the foreigners simply not good enough at executing it?
Yeah that is weird. I doubt its the execution though, that's essentially follow this build order, attack, don't forget siege mode. MVP thinks its imba, I bet other koreans do as well. Perhaps foreigners don't think so and thus don't try it (as much)? But you'd think they'd give it a shot seeing the insane success it has had.
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On August 22 2011 07:33 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:31 city42 wrote:On August 22 2011 07:29 VPGeneralHans wrote:On August 22 2011 07:26 city42 wrote:On August 22 2011 07:24 VPGeneralHans wrote:
1 gate FE into chargelot archon = 90% win rate
their banshees should have a lot of energy so you can feedback and morph archons and chargelot archon would beat marine tank, as long as you dont allow tons of bunkers to get up
it also allows for good counter after their 1/1/1 fails, no way the will have ghosts. you can expand again, get storm and drop robo etc but once the 1/1/1 fails it should be over That deals with cloak...how exactly? they cant afford cloak, if they got cloak thered be no tanks, like its been said, there are variations. but if they get cloak, 1 gate robo should be a decent enough counter, adding on extra gates etc I take it you didn't watch MC vs. Puma game 1 then. He did a 1-gate expand on that game..
His point was that PuMa got Tanks and cloak, unlike the poster he responded to claimed.
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EPT
