On August 22 2011 07:24 VPGeneralHans wrote: 1 gate FE into chargelot archon = 90% win rate
their banshees should have a lot of energy so you can feedback and morph archons and chargelot archon would beat marine tank, as long as you dont allow tons of bunkers to get up
it also allows for good counter after their 1/1/1 fails, no way the will have ghosts. you can expand again, get storm and drop robo etc but once the 1/1/1 fails it should be over
On August 22 2011 07:19 paradox_ wrote: When some of the best korean terrans in the world are saying its a little broken, why are people arguing so blindly. These are people who practice this stuff day in and out. This isn't some gold-low master level theorycrafting. The game has been out a lot longer than when 4gate was considered OP (which was nerfed anyways). There is a general consensus among those that practice 10-12 hours a day that 1-1-1 isn't right.
MC is considered to be one of the best toss (even if you disagree he comes in anyone's top 3-5 list) while someone like Puma wouldn't be considered the same league (from results). No doubt Puma is good and has potential but if some toss in Code B started destroyed MVP or NesTea 3-0 the way Puma did to MC today, there would be the same kind of crying going on if not worse.
There has been builds that were anti toss throughout the last 1 year but I don't think any of them made toss feel this helpless. Even during roach/ling allins, a lot of toss would say its holdable even though its very difficult. The solutions were there even at the peak of strength of roach/ling all-ins. The same has held true for all other builds. 4gate vs zerg etc. These builds also have the weakness of being screwed if it gets held off. No other build in the game for any race allows you to pull that many scvs and still be able to make a second or third push that strong. And even if it doesn't break the toss, if it denies the expo (by killing or cancelling whatever) long enough the terran can maintain the pushes indefinitely by simply flying their CC to expo. The only way the toss can put a stop to the build is to beat it super convincingly. Holding it off isn't enough. And as the OP linked, lack of information is an issue. If toss' had the option of throwing away 100-200 minerals to be able to scout the all-in coming at a reasonable time, they would. (e.g scan, saccing OL)
In my mind Puma is better than MC simply because of his BW background.
Speaking of BW, when Bisu PvZ came out, did blizzard give zerg a buff because Bisu and ensuing protosses used a new "imbalanced" (yes I remember DT/Sair balance whine) strategy that was dominant for a period of time? Fuck no.
what BW background? he never played a televised match.
The whole problem with protoss is Force Fields. It's why their units do less DPS compared to Terrans for their cost up and down the line, because Protoss has ability to divide up armies and giving Protoss parity price/performance protoss would never lose with proper FFing. The 1/1/1 exploits the inability of protoss to divide due to sieging with vision while at same time due to cost ineffective units at that point in the game they can't face army head on. So they take an expo to give them an economy crank more units for parity.
On August 22 2011 07:14 Huntz wrote: TBH i think the easiest fix would be to remove the banshee. obviously that's not going to happen but i don't think something like 40 hp marine with combat shields giving +15 would really fix it. worth a shot though, for sure.
Gah too extreme. My idea was to tone down the damage of banshees and make there current damage only extend to light units. And thats IT. No more.
That kinda screws up banshees in TvZ because then 1 queen will beat 1 banshee.
I'm confused how this could possibly screw up TvZ. Does zerg have some all-in with 1 queen that is impossible to stop unless terran hits an exact timing to get 1 banshee out in time to defend it?
It makes defending 2 port banshee really tricky since you need a LOT of queens and spores for that anyway.
The spore unburrow and reburrow time helps though.
Hmmmm.
Banshees doing less damage would in no way make it harder to defend...
Err.
FUCK!
So thats it then? i was right? Banshee nerf to non lights is the most delicate way of adjusting 1-1-1?
also, you should be trying to engage as far away from your base as possible if doing a 1 robo expo etc, the more times you force them to siege and unsiege, the more time you have to warp in enough to possibly hold it
On August 22 2011 07:24 VPGeneralHans wrote: 1 gate FE into chargelot archon = 90% win rate
their banshees should have a lot of energy so you can feedback and morph archons and chargelot archon would beat marine tank, as long as you dont allow tons of bunkers to get up
it also allows for good counter after their 1/1/1 fails, no way the will have ghosts. you can expand again, get storm and drop robo etc but once the 1/1/1 fails it should be over
That deals with cloak...how exactly?
they cant afford cloak, if they got cloak thered be no tanks, like its been said, there are variations. but if they get cloak, 1 gate robo should be a decent enough counter, adding on extra gates etc
On August 22 2011 07:19 paradox_ wrote: When some of the best korean terrans in the world are saying its a little broken, why are people arguing so blindly. These are people who practice this stuff day in and out. This isn't some gold-low master level theorycrafting. The game has been out a lot longer than when 4gate was considered OP (which was nerfed anyways). There is a general consensus among those that practice 10-12 hours a day that 1-1-1 isn't right.
MC is considered to be one of the best toss (even if you disagree he comes in anyone's top 3-5 list) while someone like Puma wouldn't be considered the same league (from results). No doubt Puma is good and has potential but if some toss in Code B started destroyed MVP or NesTea 3-0 the way Puma did to MC today, there would be the same kind of crying going on if not worse.
There has been builds that were anti toss throughout the last 1 year but I don't think any of them made toss feel this helpless. Even during roach/ling allins, a lot of toss would say its holdable even though its very difficult. The solutions were there even at the peak of strength of roach/ling all-ins. The same has held true for all other builds. 4gate vs zerg etc. These builds also have the weakness of being screwed if it gets held off. No other build in the game for any race allows you to pull that many scvs and still be able to make a second or third push that strong. And even if it doesn't break the toss, if it denies the expo (by killing or cancelling whatever) long enough the terran can maintain the pushes indefinitely by simply flying their CC to expo. The only way the toss can put a stop to the build is to beat it super convincingly. Holding it off isn't enough. And as the OP linked, lack of information is an issue. If toss' had the option of throwing away 100-200 minerals to be able to scout the all-in coming at a reasonable time, they would. (e.g scan, saccing OL)
In my mind Puma is better than MC simply because of his BW background.
Speaking of BW, when Bisu PvZ came out, did blizzard give zerg a buff because Bisu and ensuing protosses used a new "imbalanced" (yes I remember DT/Sair balance whine) strategy that was dominant for a period of time? Fuck no.
what BW background? he never played a televised match.
On August 22 2011 07:08 Cyber_Cheese wrote: this reminds me of the early days of 4-gateing give it a while and protoss will figure out a way as to whether thats balanced or not? well 4 gates eventually got nerfed so maybe, but at that point they were only a problem in PvP
Thing is the build isn't new, it's been revived after 1 simple event, warpgate research nerf. This is the one simple alarm bell, it's not a naturally developed build. From the nerf came slightly lower protoss army and the ability to refine terran composition.
On August 22 2011 07:24 VPGeneralHans wrote: 1 gate FE into chargelot archon = 90% win rate
their banshees should have a lot of energy so you can feedback and morph archons and chargelot archon would beat marine tank, as long as you dont allow tons of bunkers to get up
it also allows for good counter after their 1/1/1 fails, no way the will have ghosts. you can expand again, get storm and drop robo etc but once the 1/1/1 fails it should be over
That deals with cloak...how exactly?
they cant afford cloak, if they got cloak thered be no tanks, like its been said, there are variations. but if they get cloak, 1 gate robo should be a decent enough counter, adding on extra gates etc
I take it you didn't watch MC vs. Puma game 1 then.
On August 22 2011 07:24 VPGeneralHans wrote: 1 gate FE into chargelot archon = 90% win rate
their banshees should have a lot of energy so you can feedback and morph archons and chargelot archon would beat marine tank, as long as you dont allow tons of bunkers to get up
it also allows for good counter after their 1/1/1 fails, no way the will have ghosts. you can expand again, get storm and drop robo etc but once the 1/1/1 fails it should be over
That deals with cloak...how exactly?
they cant afford cloak, if they got cloak thered be no tanks, like its been said, there are variations. but if they get cloak, 1 gate robo should be a decent enough counter, adding on extra gates etc
I take it you didn't watch MC vs. Puma game 1 then.
On August 22 2011 07:24 VPGeneralHans wrote: 1 gate FE into chargelot archon = 90% win rate
their banshees should have a lot of energy so you can feedback and morph archons and chargelot archon would beat marine tank, as long as you dont allow tons of bunkers to get up
it also allows for good counter after their 1/1/1 fails, no way the will have ghosts. you can expand again, get storm and drop robo etc but once the 1/1/1 fails it should be over
That deals with cloak...how exactly?
they cant afford cloak, if they got cloak thered be no tanks, like its been said, there are variations. but if they get cloak, 1 gate robo should be a decent enough counter, adding on extra gates etc
I take it you didn't watch MC vs. Puma game 1 then.
no I did not, I'd have to watch that to comment on a 1/1/1 youre discussing. If he has cloak and siege tanks he must have delayed it to be a stronger push etc
We still don't completely know if this is imbalanced, as the 1/1/1 is so versatile so that means the options for stopping this push can vary so much.
I think if it is in fact imbalanced, nerfing the banshee build time would be the best choice. The banshees and the tanks are pretty much the power units that allow you to push forward, and the marines provide support and dps. Delaying banshee build time can either let the protoss get more units out, or having the terran push with less banshees. Changing the marine is obviously out of the question, and changing the tank could create big problems in TvZ. Changing the banshee's build time or gas cost would be the best answer, not the unit itself.
On August 22 2011 07:19 paradox_ wrote: When some of the best korean terrans in the world are saying its a little broken, why are people arguing so blindly. These are people who practice this stuff day in and out. This isn't some gold-low master level theorycrafting. The game has been out a lot longer than when 4gate was considered OP (which was nerfed anyways). There is a general consensus among those that practice 10-12 hours a day that 1-1-1 isn't right.
MC is considered to be one of the best toss (even if you disagree he comes in anyone's top 3-5 list) while someone like Puma wouldn't be considered the same league (from results). No doubt Puma is good and has potential but if some toss in Code B started destroyed MVP or NesTea 3-0 the way Puma did to MC today, there would be the same kind of crying going on if not worse.
There has been builds that were anti toss throughout the last 1 year but I don't think any of them made toss feel this helpless. Even during roach/ling allins, a lot of toss would say its holdable even though its very difficult. The solutions were there even at the peak of strength of roach/ling all-ins. The same has held true for all other builds. 4gate vs zerg etc. These builds also have the weakness of being screwed if it gets held off. No other build in the game for any race allows you to pull that many scvs and still be able to make a second or third push that strong. And even if it doesn't break the toss, if it denies the expo (by killing or cancelling whatever) long enough the terran can maintain the pushes indefinitely by simply flying their CC to expo. The only way the toss can put a stop to the build is to beat it super convincingly. Holding it off isn't enough. And as the OP linked, lack of information is an issue. If toss' had the option of throwing away 100-200 minerals to be able to scout the all-in coming at a reasonable time, they would. (e.g scan, saccing OL)
In my mind Puma is better than MC simply because of his BW background.
Speaking of BW, when Bisu PvZ came out, did blizzard give zerg a buff because Bisu and ensuing protosses used a new "imbalanced" (yes I remember DT/Sair balance whine) strategy that was dominant for a period of time? Fuck no.
what BW background? he never played a televised match.
hahahaha nice troll....you know that puma was FLASHS FUCKING PRACTICE PARTNER.......trolls everywhere
Awhile now? How long is awhile to you? I don't remember this 1-1-1 non-sense going on for more than a month. NASL finals 1-1-1 wasn't even being used.
puma vs squirtle. 1/1/1 all in, NASL finals.
But one or two specific matches through out the history of SC doesn't say much. It's always been around, but in the last few weeks its all of a sudden imba? I don't believe that, I believe Protoss players kept playing greedier and greedier and the meta game made 1-1-1 as effective as it is today.
This is what I'm arguing. Until I see a very high level game where there is a 2gate robo opening and a successful and well executed 1-1-1 allin, I cannot really believe the OP.
You can't say 1 gate FE is too greedy when it has the best chances of holding it off though. You really can't 1 base the terran back, you'll get choked out in the mid game. If you one base colossus , the terran will see it before committing to the 1-1-1 anyway.
There does not have to be a mid game if you beat his push... You can just kill him outright. Even if you only come out a little ahead in the battle and cannot counter attack, you still have more workers and more units which can set you up for a better midgame.
This would be true if there was a reactive 1base build tht could actually hold it off.
I'm quite certain that 3-gate robo wrecks the 1-1-1 allin unless you engage in a TERRIBLE position or let him bunker up (which there is no reason you should let him).
the 1-1-1 build is not an early aggression build and the FE kicks in before the attack comes. What advantage does the 3-gate robo give a person when the 1-1-1 attack comes?
There are obviously many different forms of 1-1-1, so by determining it early you can defend it properly by knowing what form it is.
ok, most the time the terran will have a raven out so obs to scout the exact composition will most likely not see whole army or just die. So that early information will be obsolete when defending a 1-1-1 build. I still don't see the advantage of the 3-gate robo when the terran starts it's attack. The form of 111 build people are talking about is the raven, banshee, marine, siege tank push.
On August 22 2011 07:24 VPGeneralHans wrote: 1 gate FE into chargelot archon = 90% win rate
their banshees should have a lot of energy so you can feedback and morph archons and chargelot archon would beat marine tank, as long as you dont allow tons of bunkers to get up
it also allows for good counter after their 1/1/1 fails, no way the will have ghosts. you can expand again, get storm and drop robo etc but once the 1/1/1 fails it should be over
That deals with cloak...how exactly?
they cant afford cloak, if they got cloak thered be no tanks, like its been said, there are variations. but if they get cloak, 1 gate robo should be a decent enough counter, adding on extra gates etc
I take it you didn't watch MC vs. Puma game 1 then.
EPT
