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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 22 2011 08:16 awu25 wrote:
Remember when everyone thought Roach zergling all in was unstoppable? Then MC showed us how to counter it. Everyone is just overreacting and eventually people will know how to start countering it better
Roach zergling was a reactive play to certain popular kinds of protoss expansion. This is a one base all in where the terran could probably skip scouting if they wanted to.
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On August 22 2011 08:16 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:09 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:05 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:47 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:06 hugman wrote:
Even if Tyler isn't among the top pros he's still better than anyone else in this thread so why even begin to question his knowledge? If he can't debate then no one else can Tyler is a great player, no doubt, but I still hold the opinions of IMMvp, Alicia, Killer and the other Code S/A players who have said this build needs patching over his. Okay, just to lay to rest the IMMvp response to the allin. He is the terran that does it probably the least in Korea, so how does that give him the authority to comment on its balance? Little experience with the build usually results in rash conclusions about it. He does it the least precisely because he thinks it's broken and terran players shouldn't use it. Can you really not understand that? If he does it the least precisely, how is he the authority on it's balance though. He does it least precisely because he's a more macro player... meaning he has the least experience with it... meaning he's not the go-to-guy to determine how imbalanced it is. because he's fucking MVP
So what, are you saying that you guys can say whats balanced and whats not but MVP can't ? doesn't really make sense.
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On August 22 2011 08:10 paradox_ wrote:
What is frustrating is the complete inconsistency in how everything is being handled. Everyone said warp in storms are way too strong and that was nerfed (all other casters can insta use their aoe spells with upgrades except HT) etc. Toss all-in is too strong (4gate), WG timing gets nerfed. Terran all-ins keep coming up in the metagame (reaper rushes, marine-scv etc) in many different variations and nothing should be done about that? Zerg really hasn't ever had any all-ins that were impossible to hold if scouted. Same goes for Toss. All-ins once scouted early enough generally get stopped or atleast it goes down to who executes better. In the case of 111, MC and other toss' has had multiple games where they see it and still cant hold it off (not just talking about 1 engagement).
Edit: Also for Tyler's comments. I love Tyler and have learnt a lot from him. I understand what he is saying and it is absolutely rude for anyone to question his expertise by pointing out silly things he has already openly accepted and admitted (lack of practice etc). Having said that, isn't it a little odd for any pro to say every other pro who is out in the field and practising 10-12 hours a day are somehow completely wrong when you have Terrans and Toss at the highest levels saying 111 is broken? That's similar to us average to above average players questioning Tyler blindly without considering what he is saying out of his experience to be true. Tyler should respect other professional's expertise if he expects us to do the same (which we should).
Agreed. Tylers opinion has more weight than most but thats by no means a pass to say... close the thread... end of discussion. He may just be flat out incorrect. Artosis and Tyler have hardons for these safe builds and these notions that the better players play safe. I think taking well calculated risks is more the mark of a great player than always playing safe.
The most abrupt nerf I think ive seen in sc2 so far was definitely the void ray nerf. It was literally nerfed within a week or two of being revealed in the GSL (in its strongest form at least). There are striking similarities to the VR all in and the 111 push though... basically all terran could do was infer from limited information if it was coming. It was hard countered by a fast viking and 2 bunkers, but that was a huge commitment if the toss ended up doing something else. The terran had to risk either being behind or just being dead and they had to flip a coin. This is very very similar. Their VR change proved to make the game overall better (though I do miss my speedrays)
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1/1/1 is more traumatizing than 9/11
User was banned for this post.
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On August 22 2011 08:16 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:14 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 08:09 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:05 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:47 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:06 hugman wrote:
Even if Tyler isn't among the top pros he's still better than anyone else in this thread so why even begin to question his knowledge? If he can't debate then no one else can Tyler is a great player, no doubt, but I still hold the opinions of IMMvp, Alicia, Killer and the other Code S/A players who have said this build needs patching over his. Okay, just to lay to rest the IMMvp response to the allin. He is the terran that does it probably the least in Korea, so how does that give him the authority to comment on its balance? Little experience with the build usually results in rash conclusions about it. He does it the least precisely because he thinks it's broken and terran players shouldn't use it. Can you really not understand that? If he does it the least precisely, how is he the authority on it's balance though. He does it least precisely because he's a more macro player... meaning he has the least experience with it... meaning he's not the go-to-guy to determine how imbalanced it is. 'Precisely because' not 'least precisely'. I'm not sure if you're just trolling at this point. Whatever, I guess you know better than all the pros in Korea. When did I ever say I know more than a korean pro? I'm saying that people should heed Tyler's post about it more than they heed MvP's comment on it. Clearly Tyler has more experience with it if MvP never does it.
MVP practices 10-12 hours a day. You honestly think he hasn't done this build to Protoss 50-100 times, at the very least? MVP can't comment on this build because he plays more of a safe, macro style in tournament play? He even destroyed MC with a 2 base version of 1/1/1 and a hard contain.
MVP never does it? Come on now people, you can't be that naive.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On August 22 2011 08:12 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:07 illsick wrote:On August 22 2011 08:01 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:58 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:52 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:40 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:37 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:25 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:23 Medrea wrote:
[quote]
Robo openings often lose to 1-1-1 anyway.
I dunno man, how many have we seen recently at the highest level? I can't even think of one. It's just the metagame. We do not see them most likely because they were thrown out in practice by the Koreans already. Do you think they would not try such a simple thing ? We have no way of knowing that. All we know is 5-6 months ago when robo builds were popular, there were wayyy less 1-1-1 allins. That says something. No it actually does not say anything else than that they were not used. It was also a time when wg reasearch was shorter. Also since you responded before my edit, i will repeat. Why did you ignore this piece of information: On August 22 2011 06:23 CryingPoo wrote:On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. I will be suggesting GomTV to have an Artosis on Star2 Ready Action Program. Korean SC2 caster who claimed that 1/1/1 is dependable against Protoss with the exact build that Artosis claimed got BEATEN 5 times in a row by ST_SuperStar (also known as Random King) It was beaten by ST_SuperStar vs who? This is such vague information lol. How can you argue off that? The point was that it was tried on that show that OP takes his info from, so it is not like people forgot about robo play, which was your argument. Frankly it seems more and more like you ever read the OP even. Like I said before, seeing is believing. I won't believe that a 2-gate robo or 1-gate robo cannot beat it until I see that it cannot. This is considering that the protoss uses the scouting from the robo and responds correctly. I don't get what you are trying to say with this scouting thing. Say you know that the 1-1-1 is coming, what ways can you "respond" correctly. Keep in mind that the terran will have a raven so that the obs will either get sniped or not see the exact composition of army. Scout, Add 2 gates, deny bunkers, defensive concave. Expand AFTER you kill the push. I've explained this before.
There's only one push and that's when the terran starts to move out. Is that the push you are talking about? The economic advantage from a FE already kicks in and you are benefited from it even before the 1-1-1 push goes out; so why can't someone do that with this economic advantage?
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On August 22 2011 08:09 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:05 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:47 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:06 hugman wrote:
Even if Tyler isn't among the top pros he's still better than anyone else in this thread so why even begin to question his knowledge? If he can't debate then no one else can Tyler is a great player, no doubt, but I still hold the opinions of IMMvp, Alicia, Killer and the other Code S/A players who have said this build needs patching over his. Okay, just to lay to rest the IMMvp response to the allin. He is the terran that does it probably the least in Korea, so how does that give him the authority to comment on its balance? Little experience with the build usually results in rash conclusions about it. He does it the least precisely because he thinks it's broken and terran players shouldn't use it. Can you really not understand that? If he does it the least precisely, how is he the authority on it's balance though. He does it least precisely because he's a more macro player... meaning he has the least experience with it... meaning he's not the go-to-guy to determine how imbalanced it is.
I'm nearly certain this is a troll at this point.
Essentially claiming that you understand the state of the game better than MVP, that's just way overboard for it to be the typical Gold-level theorycrafting.
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Hmmmm. Well, if the 1/1/1 is too strong (which it certainly looks like from my perspective, as a zerg player who watches high level PvT) what should be done about it? What can you nerf that won't seriously hamper other aspects of terran gameplay or make certain units obsolete? Banshees already have long build times, tank/siege timing is pretty thin to be safe against certain zerg aggression in TvZ. Marines are really strong but I dunno if you could actually nerf them in a way that wouldn't cripple terran early game vs 4 gate or ling/baneling all-ins.
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On August 22 2011 08:20 Noktix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:16 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:14 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 08:09 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:05 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:47 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:06 hugman wrote:
Even if Tyler isn't among the top pros he's still better than anyone else in this thread so why even begin to question his knowledge? If he can't debate then no one else can Tyler is a great player, no doubt, but I still hold the opinions of IMMvp, Alicia, Killer and the other Code S/A players who have said this build needs patching over his. Okay, just to lay to rest the IMMvp response to the allin. He is the terran that does it probably the least in Korea, so how does that give him the authority to comment on its balance? Little experience with the build usually results in rash conclusions about it. He does it the least precisely because he thinks it's broken and terran players shouldn't use it. Can you really not understand that? If he does it the least precisely, how is he the authority on it's balance though. He does it least precisely because he's a more macro player... meaning he has the least experience with it... meaning he's not the go-to-guy to determine how imbalanced it is. 'Precisely because' not 'least precisely'. I'm not sure if you're just trolling at this point. Whatever, I guess you know better than all the pros in Korea. When did I ever say I know more than a korean pro? I'm saying that people should heed Tyler's post about it more than they heed MvP's comment on it. Clearly Tyler has more experience with it if MvP never does it. MVP practices 10-12 hours a day. You honestly think he hasn't done this build to Protoss 50-100 times, at the very least? MVP can't comment on this build because he plays more of a safe, macro style in tournament play? He even destroyed MC with a 2 base version of 1/1/1 and a hard contain. MVP never does it? Come on now people, you can't be that naive.
He specifically said he does not do the one base version of this build. The 2 base version is a completely different thing. There are so many better ways to respond to the 2 base version with even more time.
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On August 22 2011 08:20 illsick wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:12 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:07 illsick wrote:On August 22 2011 08:01 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:58 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:52 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:40 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:37 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 07:25 Razuik wrote:
[quote]
I dunno man, how many have we seen recently at the highest level? I can't even think of one. It's just the metagame. We do not see them most likely because they were thrown out in practice by the Koreans already. Do you think they would not try such a simple thing ? We have no way of knowing that. All we know is 5-6 months ago when robo builds were popular, there were wayyy less 1-1-1 allins. That says something. No it actually does not say anything else than that they were not used. It was also a time when wg reasearch was shorter. Also since you responded before my edit, i will repeat. Why did you ignore this piece of information: On August 22 2011 06:23 CryingPoo wrote:On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. I will be suggesting GomTV to have an Artosis on Star2 Ready Action Program. Korean SC2 caster who claimed that 1/1/1 is dependable against Protoss with the exact build that Artosis claimed got BEATEN 5 times in a row by ST_SuperStar (also known as Random King) It was beaten by ST_SuperStar vs who? This is such vague information lol. How can you argue off that? The point was that it was tried on that show that OP takes his info from, so it is not like people forgot about robo play, which was your argument. Frankly it seems more and more like you ever read the OP even. Like I said before, seeing is believing. I won't believe that a 2-gate robo or 1-gate robo cannot beat it until I see that it cannot. This is considering that the protoss uses the scouting from the robo and responds correctly. I don't get what you are trying to say with this scouting thing. Say you know that the 1-1-1 is coming, what ways can you "respond" correctly. Keep in mind that the terran will have a raven so that the obs will either get sniped or not see the exact composition of army. Scout, Add 2 gates, deny bunkers, defensive concave. Expand AFTER you kill the push. I've explained this before. There's only one push and that's when the terran starts to move out. Is that the push you are talking about? The economic advantage from a FE already kicks in and you are benefited from it even before the 1-1-1 push goes out; so why can't someone do that with this economic advantage?
People keep talking without reading the OP.
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On August 22 2011 08:20 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:09 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:05 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:47 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:06 hugman wrote:
Even if Tyler isn't among the top pros he's still better than anyone else in this thread so why even begin to question his knowledge? If he can't debate then no one else can Tyler is a great player, no doubt, but I still hold the opinions of IMMvp, Alicia, Killer and the other Code S/A players who have said this build needs patching over his. Okay, just to lay to rest the IMMvp response to the allin. He is the terran that does it probably the least in Korea, so how does that give him the authority to comment on its balance? Little experience with the build usually results in rash conclusions about it. He does it the least precisely because he thinks it's broken and terran players shouldn't use it. Can you really not understand that? If he does it the least precisely, how is he the authority on it's balance though. He does it least precisely because he's a more macro player... meaning he has the least experience with it... meaning he's not the go-to-guy to determine how imbalanced it is. I'm nearly certain this is a troll at this point. Essentially claiming that you understand the state of the game better than MVP, that's just way overboard for it to be the typical Gold-level theorycrafting.
Tyler stated the exact same things that I stated about 1-gate robo.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On August 22 2011 08:21 Lobotomist wrote:
Hmmmm. Well, if the 1/1/1 is too strong (which it certainly looks like from my perspective, as a zerg player who watches high level PvT) what should be done about it? What can you nerf that won't seriously hamper other aspects of terran gameplay or make certain units obsolete? Banshees already have long build times, tank/siege timing is pretty thin to be safe against certain zerg aggression in TvZ. Marines are really strong but I dunno if you could actually nerf them in a way that wouldn't cripple terran early game vs 4 gate or ling/baneling all-ins.
Someone already mentioned that PDD should be a research and HSM should be standard with the raven like PDD is now. Which is a start and seems like a good idea.
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On August 22 2011 08:08 0neder wrote:
Words of wisdom from Tyler.
Beyond this, we might point out to Blizzard that making gateway cooldown a bit faster than warpgates would be exciting! More choices, more excitement!
Can you imagine if gateway/warpgate is a choice throughout the game? It wouldn't be a huge deal for lesser players, but it would make huge differences in upper play. I can only dream...
Gah Blizzard, why not fix so many problems with this easy to implement idea :S It would have no bareing on end-game play, you are just able to defend better. If you are going to be building stuff from gateways manually, there will be much more thought regarding what you do.
srigherioghjioerjhgiorjhgiorgjr PLEASE!@!$@#!$!$
If they were going to allow units to come out 3-4 seconds earlier, I think that could help push a P defense a little towards their side against the 1-1-1. Not sure if it will be enough to stop a 1-1-1 push though.
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Remember when everyone thought Roach zergling all in was unstoppable? Then MC showed us how to counter it. Everyone is just overreacting and eventually people will know how to start countering it better
Yeah, except MC is just losing to this.
huk 20 fe is pretty damn safe against many things, that terran can do earlygame. also i would love to see some fucking numbers that actually support what ppl say. shouldnt the winrate of t v p be extremely high right now?
Well its been said before GSL winrate of the 1-1-1 is about 90%.
The july winrates for TvP in Korea have protoss at like 34%
and August will probably be worse
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On August 22 2011 08:24 illsick wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:21 Lobotomist wrote:
Hmmmm. Well, if the 1/1/1 is too strong (which it certainly looks like from my perspective, as a zerg player who watches high level PvT) what should be done about it? What can you nerf that won't seriously hamper other aspects of terran gameplay or make certain units obsolete? Banshees already have long build times, tank/siege timing is pretty thin to be safe against certain zerg aggression in TvZ. Marines are really strong but I dunno if you could actually nerf them in a way that wouldn't cripple terran early game vs 4 gate or ling/baneling all-ins. Someone already mentioned that PDD should be a research and HSM should be standard with the raven like PDD is now. Which is a start and seems like a good idea.
PDD being an upgrade is not unreasonable at all. It's a force multiplier in the early game
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On August 22 2011 08:24 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:20 Toadvine wrote:On August 22 2011 08:09 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:05 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:47 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:06 hugman wrote:
Even if Tyler isn't among the top pros he's still better than anyone else in this thread so why even begin to question his knowledge? If he can't debate then no one else can Tyler is a great player, no doubt, but I still hold the opinions of IMMvp, Alicia, Killer and the other Code S/A players who have said this build needs patching over his. Okay, just to lay to rest the IMMvp response to the allin. He is the terran that does it probably the least in Korea, so how does that give him the authority to comment on its balance? Little experience with the build usually results in rash conclusions about it. He does it the least precisely because he thinks it's broken and terran players shouldn't use it. Can you really not understand that? If he does it the least precisely, how is he the authority on it's balance though. He does it least precisely because he's a more macro player... meaning he has the least experience with it... meaning he's not the go-to-guy to determine how imbalanced it is. I'm nearly certain this is a troll at this point. Essentially claiming that you understand the state of the game better than MVP, that's just way overboard for it to be the typical Gold-level theorycrafting. Tyler stated the exact same things that I stated about 1-gate robo.
so you credit tyler but discredit MVP, interesting....
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On August 22 2011 08:22 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:20 Noktix wrote:On August 22 2011 08:16 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:14 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 08:09 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:05 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:47 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:06 hugman wrote:
Even if Tyler isn't among the top pros he's still better than anyone else in this thread so why even begin to question his knowledge? If he can't debate then no one else can Tyler is a great player, no doubt, but I still hold the opinions of IMMvp, Alicia, Killer and the other Code S/A players who have said this build needs patching over his. Okay, just to lay to rest the IMMvp response to the allin. He is the terran that does it probably the least in Korea, so how does that give him the authority to comment on its balance? Little experience with the build usually results in rash conclusions about it. He does it the least precisely because he thinks it's broken and terran players shouldn't use it. Can you really not understand that? If he does it the least precisely, how is he the authority on it's balance though. He does it least precisely because he's a more macro player... meaning he has the least experience with it... meaning he's not the go-to-guy to determine how imbalanced it is. 'Precisely because' not 'least precisely'. I'm not sure if you're just trolling at this point. Whatever, I guess you know better than all the pros in Korea. When did I ever say I know more than a korean pro? I'm saying that people should heed Tyler's post about it more than they heed MvP's comment on it. Clearly Tyler has more experience with it if MvP never does it. MVP practices 10-12 hours a day. You honestly think he hasn't done this build to Protoss 50-100 times, at the very least? MVP can't comment on this build because he plays more of a safe, macro style in tournament play? He even destroyed MC with a 2 base version of 1/1/1 and a hard contain. MVP never does it? Come on now people, you can't be that naive. He specifically said he does not do the one base version of this build. The 2 base version is a completely different thing. There are so many better ways to respond to the 2 base version with even more time.
What he's trying to say is that just because he doesn't do it on tournament games doesn't mean he has never done it in practice. How is this so hard for people to understand.
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So many trolls in this thread lol.
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On August 22 2011 08:27 illsick wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:24 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:20 Toadvine wrote:On August 22 2011 08:09 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 08:05 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:49 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:47 tomatriedes wrote:On August 22 2011 07:06 hugman wrote:
Even if Tyler isn't among the top pros he's still better than anyone else in this thread so why even begin to question his knowledge? If he can't debate then no one else can Tyler is a great player, no doubt, but I still hold the opinions of IMMvp, Alicia, Killer and the other Code S/A players who have said this build needs patching over his. Okay, just to lay to rest the IMMvp response to the allin. He is the terran that does it probably the least in Korea, so how does that give him the authority to comment on its balance? Little experience with the build usually results in rash conclusions about it. He does it the least precisely because he thinks it's broken and terran players shouldn't use it. Can you really not understand that? If he does it the least precisely, how is he the authority on it's balance though. He does it least precisely because he's a more macro player... meaning he has the least experience with it... meaning he's not the go-to-guy to determine how imbalanced it is. I'm nearly certain this is a troll at this point. Essentially claiming that you understand the state of the game better than MVP, that's just way overboard for it to be the typical Gold-level theorycrafting. Tyler stated the exact same things that I stated about 1-gate robo. so you credit tyler but discredit MVP, interesting....
Tyler is obviously better at cheesing. (just kidding :D)
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On August 22 2011 08:03 theBOOCH wrote:
I think like with any strat that involves a contain, the key is counter pressure. Yeah, the 111 is a strong killing strat, but the Terran still can't do anything if they can't go up the ramp. Also, as was noted, Protoss will run out of minerals if on one base too long (duh). But I think that Protoss doesn't need as much mineral income as other races to produce a big army (think 4 gate). I think the key to dealing with contain type strats is to not overcommit to mining on one base (don't saturate), build a warp prism or two, and put on counter pressure. The strat where you warp in zealots and a sentry and force field their ramp so they can't reinforce. This might not be a killing move, but it can definitely help you catch up on workers, as well as force them to pull their army back. Just something to think about. Obviously it's not fool proof, but it's something to try.
Genius. Email MC. But I'd think about how you FF your ramp with siege tanks parked outside beforehand or how you stop Terran expanding while sieged outside your base. Just sayin.
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EPT
