EPTOn August 25 2011 02:36 Garaman wrote:
this quote explains everything you need to about 1/1/1 =)
this quote explains everything you need to about 1/1/1 =)
stop whining, its getting old and won't help.
Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 123
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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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DertoQq
France906 Posts
stop whining, its getting old and won't help. | ||
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DusTerr
2520 Posts
On August 25 2011 01:19 Zax19 wrote: The utility of 1/1/1 isn't the issue (apart from some obvious unit nerfs), it's the win/loss design of protoss' detection and cloak. Permanent, invisible, difficult to get mobile detection vs. permanent, fragile, deadly cloaked unit. Now look at TvT and compare it to PvP. What do you like more, build order wins or good utility? for those of us who don't quite get what you're saying... A) repeat your main point. B) what obvious unit nerfs? Now, regarding observers vs cloak banshees...  http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Robotics facility+ http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Observer+ Show Spoiler + 200m 100g and 65s + 25m 75g and *40s (*w/o chronoboost) total, 225m, 175g and 105s vs http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Banshee+ Show Spoiler + *cloak only* 200m 200g 110s ONE observer (counting robo facility) is CHEAPER and QUICKER (w/o chronobost) than banshee cloak research. So I don't really think "they might get cloak" should be a very strong argument. What's the next issue to theorycraft? | ||
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Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
On August 25 2011 02:58 DusTerr wrote: for those of us who don't quite get what you're saying... A) repeat your main point. B) what obvious unit nerfs? Now, regarding observers vs cloak banshees... http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Robotics facility+ http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Observer+ Show Spoiler + 200m 100g and 65s + 25m 75g and *40s (*w/o chronoboost) total, 225m, 175g and 105s vs http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Banshee+ Show Spoiler + *cloak only* 200m 200g 110s ONE observer (counting robo facility) is CHEAPER and QUICKER (w/o chronobost) than banshee cloak research. So I don't really think "they might get cloak" should be a very strong argument. What's the next issue to theorycraft? How do you know if they're getting cloak though? or when for that matter? You HAVE to get it by the timing. However, if terran skips it you just spent 225m, 175g and 105s on a useless observer. Further, you need more like 2 observers because of the potential snipe from the marine/raven | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 25 2011 03:06 Aletheia27 wrote: How do you know if they're getting cloak though? or when for that matter? You HAVE to get it by the timing. However, if terran skips it you just spent 225m, 175g and 105s on a useless observer. Further, you need more like 2 observers because of the potential snipe from the marine/raven On big maps 2 Observers is required. To be safe vs Marine/Raven snipe, a 2nd Observer is very useful. In most high level games where MC / other Protoss are getting 1-1-1'd, Terrans are always looking for Observer snipes. These will simply end the game. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On August 25 2011 02:58 DusTerr wrote: for those of us who don't quite get what you're saying... A) repeat your main point. B) what obvious unit nerfs? Now, regarding observers vs cloak banshees... http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Robotics facility+ http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Observer+ Show Spoiler + 200m 100g and 65s + 25m 75g and *40s (*w/o chronoboost) total, 225m, 175g and 105s vs http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Banshee+ Show Spoiler + *cloak only* 200m 200g 110s ONE observer (counting robo facility) is CHEAPER and QUICKER (w/o chronobost) than banshee cloak research. So I don't really think "they might get cloak" should be a very strong argument. What's the next issue to theorycraft? The moment you see a banshee you need 2 observers. You can defend 2 bases with 1 obs until a second one is out by transfering all probes to one base, but to figure out what terran is doing you need a second one to send to his base. Sending the first one after seeing a banshee is the Painuser argument, terrans don't usually get cloak, and for any protoss who doesn't like gambling, invalid. | ||
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Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
tl/dr: If your opponent sees 1/1/1 and reacts accordingly, cloaked banshees are a guaranteed win. | ||
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The Touch
United Kingdom667 Posts
On August 25 2011 03:42 Velocirapture wrote: The issue with observers and cloaked banshees was discussed (in the context of 1/1/1) on "inside the Game" and I tend to agree with the major points established which are that cloak is very rarely researched due to cost restrictions but when it is the game is a free win if the opponent responded normally to 1/1/1 because a robo is out of the question vs the normal push. tl/dr: If your opponent sees 1/1/1 and reacts accordingly, cloaked banshees are a guaranteed win. Arguably, if you know there's a chance of terran researching cloak, and if you know that it's an instant loss if he does, choosing to forgo an observer should not be normal anymore. Again, I'm not saying that the 1/1/1 all-in isn't too powerful, but it seems reasonable to conclude that a standard defense against that sort of build should include an observer to guard against the possibility of cloak. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On August 25 2011 02:24 tomatriedes wrote: This guy actually whined a huge amount about KA and infestors but of course when it's protoss rather than terran who are struggling it's the old 'l2p noobs' argument. I guess buffs/nerfs are only unreasonable when it's non-terran players making the suggestions. Hahahaha! I must have made quite the impression *blushes*' KA Argument + Show Spoiler [Read this, punk.] + I had a very sound argument concerning the KA - Which is a single game element. It can be very clearly compared to other game elements in several ways. My argument was based on mathematical utility. I'd be happy to point you to posts where I outlined that specific argument. If you think I was wrong then, feel free to re-open the debate and rebut my specific points, otherwise, I'll just consider your position a tacit acceptance of defeat. Infestors + Show Spoiler [Read this as well, PUNK!] + I do think a case could be made that the Infestor is overpowered, but I don't think my position is as strong as the one I had concerning the KA. I have not put in the time, or the effort, to prove either way that the Infestor is imbasoimba ezmode, but boy it sure does feel that way sometimes! It's probably the most versatile and useful spellcaster in the game. I think that can probably be proven easily. But that fact alone doesn't mean it is overpowered, it just means that it is probably the best/most useful. The calming blue skies of reason ... Your character attack has failed. I've contributed plenty to this thread, not that I really expect you have the care to go and look at my numerous contributions. A few have endorsed my contributions, and even some of my opponents have come to the table and had mutually respectable exchange. You come into an argument where an entire race is being called into question, using two examples of very specific balance discussions in the past (where both were endorsed by Blizzard), encourage others to dismiss my position in this argument based purely on your misinformed opinion of me, while simultaneously contributing nothing to this argument! Trolling, maybe? I actually hope so in this case. Come to the table with something a little more impressive than a baseless character argument, and lets fight it out like real Internet nerds. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 25 2011 03:42 Velocirapture wrote: The issue with observers and cloaked banshees was discussed (in the context of 1/1/1) on "inside the Game" and I tend to agree with the major points established which are that cloak is very rarely researched due to cost restrictions but when it is the game is a free win if the opponent responded normally to 1/1/1 because a robo is out of the question vs the normal push. tl/dr: If your opponent sees 1/1/1 and reacts accordingly, cloaked banshees are a guaranteed win. You are so wrong. In what situation are Cloaked Banshees a guaranteed win vs typical 1/1/1 responses? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379 | ||
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Lurk
Germany359 Posts
On August 25 2011 03:42 Velocirapture wrote: The issue with observers and cloaked banshees was discussed (in the context of 1/1/1) on "inside the Game" and I tend to agree with the major points established which are that cloak is very rarely researched due to cost restrictions but when it is the game is a free win if the opponent responded normally to 1/1/1 because a robo is out of the question vs the normal push. tl/dr: If your opponent sees 1/1/1 and reacts accordingly, cloaked banshees are a guaranteed win. If it were that simple, terrans would always get cloak to collect their "guaranteed wins". Obviously, cloaked banshees are quite powerful, especially given the ability to snipe observers, but it isn't as black-and-white as you paint it. Often, the terran will be able to inflict some damage with the first cloaked banshee (lets be generous, 6-10 probes), but nothing catastophic. You'll have more econ than they do anyway, even if he kills a few probes. And the upside will be that his push will be short a couple units (due to having spend 200/200 on cloak and possibly losing the harassing banshee(s)). This is assuming you'll at least start building a robo at some time before he comes killing you though. | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
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Penecks
United States600 Posts
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TT1
Canada10105 Posts
[url blocked] [url blocked] edit: two 1/1/1 allins | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On August 25 2011 05:36 Penecks wrote: I'm curious what the build looks like where cloak research is possible without majorly cutting tank production? The only way I can fit cloak into my 1/1/1 is by skipping tanks altogether and pumping hellions from the factory (which is a decent alternative I found, hellions being repaired by SCVs can soak up a lot of damage), skipping the raven, or delaying the push massively to accumulate the gas. You can save 100 gas from skipping siege mode and another 100 gas by cutting 1 tank for a hellion to save up for cloak. Alternatively, you can save ~150 gas by making a banshee and a half instead of a raven, which should bring you close enough. | ||
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beute
Germany197 Posts
On August 25 2011 06:16 TT1 wrote: hey look i just defended [url blocked] [url blocked] edit: two 1/1/1 allins and you thought it would be a good idea to use megaupload to upload you sc2 replays? :D | ||
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repsac
91 Posts
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On August 25 2011 03:57 TimeSpiral wrote: Hahahaha! I must have made quite the impression *blushes*' KA Argument + Show Spoiler [Read this, punk.] + I had a very sound argument concerning the KA - Which is a single game element. It can be very clearly compared to other game elements in several ways. My argument was based on mathematical utility. I'd be happy to point you to posts where I outlined that specific argument. If you think I was wrong then, feel free to re-open the debate and rebut my specific points, otherwise, I'll just consider your position a tacit acceptance of defeat. Infestors + Show Spoiler [Read this as well, PUNK!] + I do think a case could be made that the Infestor is overpowered, but I don't think my position is as strong as the one I had concerning the KA. I have not put in the time, or the effort, to prove either way that the Infestor is imbasoimba ezmode, but boy it sure does feel that way sometimes! It's probably the most versatile and useful spellcaster in the game. I think that can probably be proven easily. But that fact alone doesn't mean it is overpowered, it just means that it is probably the best/most useful. The calming blue skies of reason ... Your character attack has failed. I've contributed plenty to this thread, not that I really expect you have the care to go and look at my numerous contributions. A few have endorsed my contributions, and even some of my opponents have come to the table and had mutually respectable exchange. You come into an argument where an entire race is being called into question, using two examples of very specific balance discussions in the past (where both were endorsed by Blizzard), encourage others to dismiss my position in this argument based purely on your misinformed opinion of me, while simultaneously contributing nothing to this argument! Trolling, maybe? I actually hope so in this case. Come to the table with something a little more impressive than a baseless character argument, and lets fight it out like real Internet nerds. If you can't see you're being hypocritical by demanding buffs/nerfs that benefit the race you play while outright calling other people's buff/nerf ideas that don't benefit the race you play unreasonable and insisting they just need to play better then I'm pretty much done arguing with you. Hope you learn to play better against infestors. ;P | ||
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The Touch
United Kingdom667 Posts
On August 25 2011 06:16 TT1 wrote: hey look i just defended [url blocked] [url blocked] edit: two 1/1/1 allins What I liked about the 2nd replay in particular was that you engaged the all-in push well away from your natural, letting you do the dance in and out of range without any fear of him doing any economic damage. You were then free to keep the reinforcements coming in, which set you up perfectly to kill him off after you beat the push itself. But I did notice that he didn't use PDD - I suspect that his push would have been stronger if he had kept his banshee alive long enough to focus down your stalkers. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On August 25 2011 07:07 The Touch wrote: What I liked about the 2nd replay in particular was that you engaged the all-in push well away from your natural, letting you do the dance in and out of range without any fear of him doing any economic damage. You were then free to keep the reinforcements coming in, which set you up perfectly to kill him off after you beat the push itself. But I did notice that he didn't use PDD - I suspect that his push would have been stronger if he had kept his banshee alive long enough to focus down your stalkers. Part of the reason for that i suspect is that you basically only get one PDD and you REALLY REALLY want to lay it down somewhere that lets you attack the protoss natural. If you slap down a PDD in the open field between bases, you need to significantly damage the protoss army as a result, or you'll be pretty upset when you're fighting him again at the natural, but this time without a PDD. As a general rule, it's hard to force a PDD out of terran in the midfield, but if you can do it and pull back, all's the better. | ||
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