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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 24 2011 19:22 Dommk wrote:
The point is right now, that it is considerably harder to 1gate expand as Protoss than for a Terran to take a quick Expansion.
No it's not. Terran never tries to take an expansion as quickly or greedily as Protoss is forced to to stop a 1/1/1.
Terrans who try to 1rax expand into tech have a strong tendency to die to Protoss pressure, let alone allins. This is what you must do against a 1/1/1 as Protoss - 1gate expand into robo while chronoing probes.
That is what the OP is getting out, there are builds right now for Terran to flat out kill a 1gate expand with little effort, that is the problem.
Greedy 1gate expands, yes, because you have to be greedy to stop the 1/1/1. If you play it safe with chrono on units and fast extra gateways and cut probes, then you'll be safe from all Terran attacks. Until the 1/1/1 kills you, that is.
I'm not saying make 1gate expand extremely safe, but make it much safer than it is right now, at least to the point where you can do it and hold off a timing with reasonable micro and preparation like Terran and Zerg can do. A few second off Stalker/Zealot/Sentry build times from Gateways is really all that is needed to not get steam rolled.
No, it shouldn't be made better. The 1gate expand needed to stop a 1/1/1 is incredibly greedy and should be reserved as such - a greedy gamble. It should not be safe. What is broken is that Protoss is forced to be so greedy to counter a 1base allin later on.
I think 1gate expand is insufficient for correct terminology. Because of chronoboost and subsequent building, 1gate expand has a great deal of variation. It can be made very safe or ludicrously greedy. The version required to stop a 1/1/1 is one where you chrono probes much more, and you go robo immediately after the expand. It's very unsafe and it should be because it's bloody greedy!
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On August 24 2011 17:42 s3183529 wrote:A joke bout Zerg learning curve: - Dealing with 2 rax: Terran has to build depot before rax, bunker build time increases, salvage costs 25%. - Dealing with Voidray: Fluxvain and third charge on void removed, spore crawler root time decreases to only 6 secs - Dealing with HT killing natural: Amulet removed - Dealing with Protoss deathball: infestor buff which is also good in ZvT 
thats very accurate actually But I don't think it was the 2rax that made the depot before barracks rule
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On August 24 2011 19:31 Doler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 17:42 s3183529 wrote:A joke bout Zerg learning curve: - Dealing with 2 rax: Terran has to build depot before rax, bunker build time increases, salvage costs 25%. - Dealing with Voidray: Fluxvain and third charge on void removed, spore crawler root time decreases to only 6 secs - Dealing with HT killing natural: Amulet removed - Dealing with Protoss deathball: infestor buff which is also good in ZvT thats very accurate actually But I don't think it was the 2rax that made the depot before barracks rule
the reason depo before barracks came to be was because of 2v2 reaper rushes and blizzards incompetance (personal opinion rant)
about the debate at hand i cant say 111 is OP or not as im not a terran or protoss player.
however as a spectator. the current TvP state is disgusting, i refuse to watch TvP games nowadays solely because of 111.
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I do agree with the sentiment that you shouldn't have to do a greedy expand build and pray to beat a 1-1-1. Still don't see Protoss figuring out how to beat this build on one base considering how efficient Terran is and how dependent Protoss is on 3rd/4th Gas as well as mineral income to support AOE units.
Time will tell, going to be interesting to see what they nerf if 1-1-1 does happen to be too strong
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There you whiney Protoss' ... Happy?
A foreigner just showed you how to beat the #1 ranked Terran doing his abusive 1/1/1
DT expand.
Problem solved. Can we please close thread?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 24 2011 20:00 CellTech wrote:
There you whiney Protoss' ... Happy?
A foreigner just showed you how to beat the #1 ranked Terran doing his abusive 1/1/1
DT expand.
Problem solved. Can we please close thread?
that wasn't a 1/1/1
that was just a 4
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On August 24 2011 20:00 CellTech wrote:
There you whiney Protoss' ... Happy?
A foreigner just showed you how to beat the #1 ranked Terran doing his abusive 1/1/1
DT expand.
Problem solved. Can we please close thread?
Do you even know what a 1/1/1 implies?
Hint: Not 4-barracks.
Edit: Dat signature. I'm still going with stupidity though.
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On August 24 2011 20:00 CellTech wrote:
There you whiney Protoss' ... Happy?
A foreigner just showed you how to beat the #1 ranked Terran doing his abusive 1/1/1
DT expand.
Problem solved. Can we please close thread?
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did you seriously just compare dt expand to 1-1-1
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On August 24 2011 20:00 CellTech wrote:
There you whiney Protoss' ... Happy?
A foreigner just showed you how to beat the #1 ranked Terran doing his abusive 1/1/1
DT expand.
Problem solved. Can we please close thread?
User was temp banned for this post.
I love how u mentioned a build tht is hard countered by the 1/1/1
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On August 24 2011 19:36 TyrantPotato wrote:
about the debate at hand i cant say 111 is OP or not as im not a terran or protoss player.
however as a spectator. the current TvP state is disgusting, i refuse to watch TvP games nowadays solely because of 111.
I disagree. I think it's really interesting to see the 1/1/1 being pulled off all the time and the tiny variations protosses try every time, and to see the game where something just clicks, and it gets figured out.
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On August 24 2011 20:48 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 19:36 TyrantPotato wrote:
about the debate at hand i cant say 111 is OP or not as im not a terran or protoss player.
however as a spectator. the current TvP state is disgusting, i refuse to watch TvP games nowadays solely because of 111. I disagree. I think it's really interesting to see the 1/1/1 being pulled off all the time and the tiny variations protosses try every time, and to see the game where something just clicks, and it gets figured out.
I think you're very much alone in that sentiment. Wanting to watch Terrans win with 1 base all-ins, that is.
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OK so I want to preface this by pointing out that I'm a gold league scrub, so anything I say might be totally wrong, but I'd like to hear some thoughts on this mini analysis of MC v Puma, and how MC could have won. I'll be referring to sequential screenshots taken during the game, displaying army counts and either spending or income
1 - Just before the first engagement. MC has a bigger army than Puma, because his expo has had time to catch up (actually, because of protoss' low tech costs, MC was ahead on army for pretty much the whole game, even as his Nexus was building), and he has spent approximately 2,000 more resources at that point in the game. Typically, we'd say he is ahead at this stage. Note that Puma has 2 siege tanks in his army, and that MC's army is a pretty good composition to counter what Puma has - mostly Immortals and Zealots.
![[image loading]](http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7029/supplyandresourcessmall.png)
2 - Before MC attacks. Puma has taken out MC's natural Nexus and MC has engaged Puma's army. Puma drops his PDD in response, nullifying the stalkers. MC is still ahead in army supply.
![[image loading]](http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9555/afterpddsmall.png)
3 - MC has engaged. MC has danced back out of the PDD and tank range, baited Puma into fighting a straight up battle, and successfully defended the initial push. If you watch the replay, the income from the MULE in my pic is very short-lived. MC is still ahead in both army and income, even without his 2nd Nexus. Until this point, I think MC has played it pretty much perfectly. Arguably he could have engaged Puma's army farther from his natural, so that he could save his Nexus, but given that he engaged where he did, I don't think anybody could have done any better.
![[image loading]](http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/167/defendedsmall.png)
4 - Just before the start of the 2nd push. The spending totals reveal that MC has spent over 30% more resources than Puma, has an army that is 16% more supply, and has twice as many probes.
![[image loading]](http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8941/2ndpddsmall.png)
I honestly think that this is where MC made his first mistake. He knows that Puma is 1-basing, and he knows that he has a higher income even with the distance mining. I don't think MC should have rebuilt his Nexus. I think he would have been better served by just pumping out as many units as he could. Even an extra gateway and 2 or 3 more zealots would have been more useful than the nexus.
5 - MC has engaged Puma's 2nd push. Puma has just dropped another PDD.
![[image loading]](http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/5633/2ndpdd4tankssmall.png)
6 - MC keeps attacking Puma. This is where I think MC made his 2nd mistake. Firstly, Puma has 4 siege tanks this time, instead of the 2 that were in the first push. This means that engaging the army is more dangerous. Secondly, MC doesn't pull back this time when the PDD is dropped. He just keeps attacking into the army. His stalkers can't do anything because of the PDD, the 4 siege tanks rip his zealots to shreds, and that leaves the immortals left over at the end being mopped up by the marines and banshees.
![[image loading]](http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/253/deadsmall.png)
Now, I'm not trying to claim that this 1/1/1 all-in isn't overpowered, too strong, overly effective, however you want to word it. As I say, I'm a low-level player so I'll happily defer to those of you with more experience in terms of how strong certain builds are compared to how much effort has to be put into executing and defending them.
But just from watching the replay I can see a few things that I think MC could have done differently, especially if he had scouted more actively. He didn't send his observer into Puma's base until about 4 minutes after the first push, so he had no idea what Puma was doing. If he had done that immediately, he would have seen that Puma was continuing to pump units and might have decided that he had to do the same.
And even if he'd just had a probe sitting outside Puma's base, or along the path to his own base, maybe at the watchtower, he would have had more warning that an attack was coming, and could have caught the tanks unsieged, or at least forced the engagement to happen far enough from his base that he didn't lose his Nexus or lost it a little later (both of which would have been better for his economy).
I think a major problem is sorting out just what aspect of the build really is overpowered. Would reducing marine starting health work? Would swapping PDD with HSM in the tech tree be enough(Watching CombatEx's video from page 99 suggests that not having the PDD makes the allin a lot easier to deal with)? Do protoss need a buff instead? Perhaps a reduction on gateway build times so that they can do a non-warpgate opening against terran? Moving a research item to the Cybernetics Core?
I'm not one of the people arguing that a metagame shift is all that's needed to counter this, but I get the feeling, from reading what people are saying and from watching that particular replay, that it really won't need that big a change to have protoss be able to defend this super effectively without an inordinate amount of forewarning that it's coming. Afer all, MC was just doing a fairly standard early expand, and he almost crushed it, despite not really knowing it was coming until it came knocking on his front door.
A small change may be necessary, but I certainly don't think it needs to be nerfed into the ground. All-ins are part of the game, after all, and it's a good thing if they have a reasonable chance of succeeding if you catch your opponent off guard. The trick is balancing that with the ability of the defender to do something about it if he has reasonable forewarning that it's coming.
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Pretty good analysis, The Touch. I agree completely.
However, if you hold an allin, are massively ahead in both army and harvester supply, you shouldn't have to play perfectly. In fact, I feel like you should be able to just a-move to win. Unless your opponent makes some miracle happen.
But maybe that's just me.
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If they have banshees + PDD they can just focus down your stalkers and your screwed right? Which is pretty awkward because you don't want many stalkers as they aren't so good vs marine/tank. I'm not sure but reducing stalkers damage to 0 for 3 minutes is ridiculous imo.
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I hope Blizzard doesn't patch that, so Protoss Player will learn how to defend a very early expand against any early Terran Pressure.
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just remove PDD and give a different ability to the raven or something, and so that way stalkers arn't useless so 1/1/1 would probably be much easier to hold off.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/97/supplyandresources.png/)
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/851/afterpdd.png/)
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/84/defended.png/)
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/820/2ndpush.png/)
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/695/2ndpdd.png/)
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/269/deadm.png/)
