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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 22 2011 06:59 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:57 Lordwar wrote:
Okay, heres the deal guys.
111 attack comes at 8 minute mark, what can protos do? forge fe and mass zealots and just as many stalkers you need to kill banshees. You also can get observer out just in time in case of cloacked banshees. ....Forge fast expand...against terran.
Believe, it works against 111 if you make it work
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Have people tried the TTone build rush that rushes for +1 armor? The Marine DPS makes the 1-1-1 build scary and +1 armor and sentries mitigate that. I'm not a protoss player, but I'd rather see this thread suggest how to fix it then assume its already imbalanced.
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Again, isn't this just the build Jinro used to win MLG ages ago?
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On August 22 2011 06:59 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:57 Lordwar wrote:
Okay, heres the deal guys.
111 attack comes at 8 minute mark, what can protos do? forge fe and mass zealots and just as many stalkers you need to kill banshees. You also can get observer out just in time in case of cloacked banshees. ....Forge fast expand...against terran.
im sure terran would scout the forge expand and still do 111...
dude please stop trolling
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On August 22 2011 06:59 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:58 gwaihir wrote:its sooo funny because this allin is soooo old....when i played protoss last year i already had to deal with 1-1-1's ....and after months now everybody screams about this build.....there will be a way to stop it properly...the pros should invent better phoenix builds....everytime i won vs 1-1-1 i had a phoenix opening....they are super good vs banshee and they can lift siegetanks + you have mapcontrol and very good informations about the terran.....come on pros, dont wine and go for stargates!  )) That build loses to 2 rax.
and one sentry beats a 2 rax
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On August 22 2011 07:00 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:56 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:54 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:50 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:44 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:41 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:39 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:36 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:34 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:30 DooMDash wrote:
[quote]
They also lost to 2 rax all ins like every game for 1 month straight, with nothing changed its no longer a problem. Crazy I know right ? That was with stim iirc. And thats why they nerfed stim. 2 rax is still strong, and it can kill your anti 1-1-1. That is not why they nerfed stim. They nerfed stim for TvP ramp run ups. And all those Z's having problems were dead before stim, most of the time the Terrans never even got gas. It happened for easily a month. Just saying this is not much different. Time will tell. The build has been owning MC and for a while now with no answers emerging. Time has told. Awhile now? How long is awhile to you? I don't remember this 1-1-1 non-sense going on for more than a month. NASL finals 1-1-1 wasn't even being used. puma vs squirtle. 1/1/1 all in, NASL finals. But one or two specific matches through out the history of SC doesn't say much. It's always been around, but in the last few weeks its all of a sudden imba? I don't believe that, I believe Protoss players kept playing greedier and greedier and the meta game made 1-1-1 as effective as it is today. This is what I'm arguing. Until I see a very high level game where there is a 2gate robo opening and a successful and well executed 1-1-1 allin, I cannot really believe the OP. You can't say 1 gate FE is too greedy when it has the best chances of holding it off though. You really can't 1 base the terran back, you'll get choked out in the mid game. If you one base colossus , the terran will see it before committing to the 1-1-1 anyway. There does not have to be a mid game if you beat his push... You can just kill him outright. Even if you only come out a little ahead in the battle and cannot counter attack, you still have more workers and more units which can set you up for a better midgame.
You can't. He'll just bunker up in front of your base. And it's still over. Read the article.
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On August 22 2011 07:00 LicH. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:59 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:58 gwaihir wrote:its sooo funny because this allin is soooo old....when i played protoss last year i already had to deal with 1-1-1's ....and after months now everybody screams about this build.....there will be a way to stop it properly...the pros should invent better phoenix builds....everytime i won vs 1-1-1 i had a phoenix opening....they are super good vs banshee and they can lift siegetanks + you have mapcontrol and very good informations about the terran.....come on pros, dont wine and go for stargates! )) That build loses to 2 rax. and one sentry beats a 2 rax
Replays.
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@Jayrod
If you're only in here to bash Tyler (which you have been doing in most of these posts) then take your opinions elsewhere.. I don't understand why you don't respect his opinion as he is well known to be an extremely knowledgeable player.
I believe Cella actually said that 1 gate robo expand is the best way to hold off the 111, and as Cella is the coach of a ton of very high level Terrans, his opinion seems pretty good to me.
Another example I saw was Killer vs Select, where SelecT went for the 111 on close air positions on Metalopolis. Killer went 15 nexus, and after scouting the 111 (I think) he went for blink stalkers. Due to their mobility he was able to delay the push a lot, and picked off a few tanks. When the push finally came he crushed it pretty easily.
So, with good control, are blink stalkers an option? Although I suppose it depends on the Terran's mistakes and if they leave the tanks unguarded as they move across the map/siege.
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On August 22 2011 07:00 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:56 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:54 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:50 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:44 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:41 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:39 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:36 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:34 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:30 DooMDash wrote:
[quote]
They also lost to 2 rax all ins like every game for 1 month straight, with nothing changed its no longer a problem. Crazy I know right ? That was with stim iirc. And thats why they nerfed stim. 2 rax is still strong, and it can kill your anti 1-1-1. That is not why they nerfed stim. They nerfed stim for TvP ramp run ups. And all those Z's having problems were dead before stim, most of the time the Terrans never even got gas. It happened for easily a month. Just saying this is not much different. Time will tell. The build has been owning MC and for a while now with no answers emerging. Time has told. Awhile now? How long is awhile to you? I don't remember this 1-1-1 non-sense going on for more than a month. NASL finals 1-1-1 wasn't even being used. puma vs squirtle. 1/1/1 all in, NASL finals. But one or two specific matches through out the history of SC doesn't say much. It's always been around, but in the last few weeks its all of a sudden imba? I don't believe that, I believe Protoss players kept playing greedier and greedier and the meta game made 1-1-1 as effective as it is today. This is what I'm arguing. Until I see a very high level game where there is a 2gate robo opening and a successful and well executed 1-1-1 allin, I cannot really believe the OP. You can't say 1 gate FE is too greedy when it has the best chances of holding it off though. You really can't 1 base the terran back, you'll get choked out in the mid game. If you one base colossus , the terran will see it before committing to the 1-1-1 anyway. There does not have to be a mid game if you beat his push... You can just kill him outright. Even if you only come out a little ahead in the battle and cannot counter attack, you still have more workers and more units which can set you up for a better midgame.
Terran can just see your 1-1-1 killer and not commit to it though. So the 1-1-1 never comes.
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On August 22 2011 07:00 Lordwar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 22 2011 06:57 Lordwar wrote:
Okay, heres the deal guys.
111 attack comes at 8 minute mark, what can protos do? forge fe and mass zealots and just as many stalkers you need to kill banshees. You also can get observer out just in time in case of cloacked banshees. ....Forge fast expand...against terran. Believe, it works against 111 if you make it work
It works if you make it work... Great now we know
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There does not have to be a mid game if you beat his push... You can just kill him outright. Even if you only come out a little ahead in the battle and cannot counter attack, you still have more workers and more units which can set you up for a better midgame.
yes, IF you beat his push. but that's sooo questionable, which is what the OP is getting at
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Believe me guys, just try forge fe against 111 and i promise you, it will beat the shit out of it.
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The only thing I can say is that 1/1/1 was quite used quite a few months ago. It was a strong push. Wasn't OP and could be held. It was usually done with stim. Even as a shitty player it was a 50-50 build for me, without the all-in part, never sent SCVs. I assume for players that knew what they were doing it was even crappier.
Since then stim got nerfed. But without medivacs not sure how much help stim actually is, especially since a push like this involves quite a bit of back and forth meaning possibly quite a few stims.
Then build time/research time nerfs for protoss came. Seems quite obvious why this push is so strong now. Fewer gateway units for toss, variable composition for terran. Option to contain since most tech is in place.
Blizz could possibly just increase build times for Banshee/Raven as a way to lower the dps in the push, delay it, delay PDD. A few seconds more build time shouldn't screw up banshee usage as harass too much I suppose.
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On August 22 2011 07:00 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:56 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:54 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:50 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:44 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:41 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:39 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:36 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:34 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:30 DooMDash wrote:
[quote]
They also lost to 2 rax all ins like every game for 1 month straight, with nothing changed its no longer a problem. Crazy I know right ? That was with stim iirc. And thats why they nerfed stim. 2 rax is still strong, and it can kill your anti 1-1-1. That is not why they nerfed stim. They nerfed stim for TvP ramp run ups. And all those Z's having problems were dead before stim, most of the time the Terrans never even got gas. It happened for easily a month. Just saying this is not much different. Time will tell. The build has been owning MC and for a while now with no answers emerging. Time has told. Awhile now? How long is awhile to you? I don't remember this 1-1-1 non-sense going on for more than a month. NASL finals 1-1-1 wasn't even being used. puma vs squirtle. 1/1/1 all in, NASL finals. But one or two specific matches through out the history of SC doesn't say much. It's always been around, but in the last few weeks its all of a sudden imba? I don't believe that, I believe Protoss players kept playing greedier and greedier and the meta game made 1-1-1 as effective as it is today. This is what I'm arguing. Until I see a very high level game where there is a 2gate robo opening and a successful and well executed 1-1-1 allin, I cannot really believe the OP. You can't say 1 gate FE is too greedy when it has the best chances of holding it off though. You really can't 1 base the terran back, you'll get choked out in the mid game. If you one base colossus , the terran will see it before committing to the 1-1-1 anyway. There does not have to be a mid game if you beat his push... You can just kill him outright. Even if you only come out a little ahead in the battle and cannot counter attack, you still have more workers and more units which can set you up for a better midgame.
This would be true if there was a reactive 1base build tht could actually hold it off.
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That looked more like poor play from MarineKing than anything else.
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Even if the protoss 1 base, what can he do?
marines counter any air units, tanks/banshees counter zealots and raven counter stalker.
And even if you manage to take out the army, there will be a bunker, siege tanks waiting to defend and possibly an expansion is up.
Will you be able to stop the next push?
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Believe me guys, just try forge fe against 111 and i promise you, it will beat the shit out of it.
how in ten hells are you going to scout the 1-1-1 before you forge FE? you probably won't even reach his base before you commit to that. and if you do it much later 1 gate expo is 10x better
plus even if you could someone get that read im pretty sure terran could STILL have time stim/maruder rush you (not really a rush, but fast enough to kill you)
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On August 22 2011 06:40 Sprouter wrote:
what happened to hallucination? was it removed in a balance patch?
It comes too late to be able to help you.
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On August 22 2011 07:01 kheldorin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:00 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:56 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:54 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:50 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:44 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:41 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:39 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:36 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:34 Medrea wrote:
[quote]
That was with stim iirc. And thats why they nerfed stim. 2 rax is still strong, and it can kill your anti 1-1-1. That is not why they nerfed stim. They nerfed stim for TvP ramp run ups. And all those Z's having problems were dead before stim, most of the time the Terrans never even got gas. It happened for easily a month. Just saying this is not much different. Time will tell. The build has been owning MC and for a while now with no answers emerging. Time has told. Awhile now? How long is awhile to you? I don't remember this 1-1-1 non-sense going on for more than a month. NASL finals 1-1-1 wasn't even being used. puma vs squirtle. 1/1/1 all in, NASL finals. But one or two specific matches through out the history of SC doesn't say much. It's always been around, but in the last few weeks its all of a sudden imba? I don't believe that, I believe Protoss players kept playing greedier and greedier and the meta game made 1-1-1 as effective as it is today. This is what I'm arguing. Until I see a very high level game where there is a 2gate robo opening and a successful and well executed 1-1-1 allin, I cannot really believe the OP. You can't say 1 gate FE is too greedy when it has the best chances of holding it off though. You really can't 1 base the terran back, you'll get choked out in the mid game. If you one base colossus , the terran will see it before committing to the 1-1-1 anyway. There does not have to be a mid game if you beat his push... You can just kill him outright. Even if you only come out a little ahead in the battle and cannot counter attack, you still have more workers and more units which can set you up for a better midgame. You can't. He'll just bunker up in front of your base. And it's still over. Read the article.
If you're going for 3-gate robo with an extremely late expo, you should not let him build those bunkers. If you do then it's an extreme blunder on the protoss' part.
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On August 22 2011 07:04 branflakes14 wrote:That looked more like poor play from MarineKing than anything else.
It was.
Look at the build and timing compared to 1-1-1s nowadays. MarineKing's build order isn't refined whatsoever.
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EPT
