|
Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 22 2011 06:48 FeiLing wrote:
Knowing that it won't happen, I still wanna throw this suggestion in:
Switch Hunter Seeker Missile and Point Defense Drone (so PDD needs to be researched first).
At the very least I think the duration has to go DOWN. Breaking a siege contain is hard enough. With 3 minutes duration in which your stalkers do Zero damage should you dare to engage it's absolutely impossible.
I personally try to avoid stalker usage against 1-1-1, even if they dont have a raven with them, they do to lousy damage against anything and i dont have so much apm to spare to micro them perfectly (else they die to the siegetanks)
|
|
|
what about fighting when they push out or even delaying the push?
i know its sc2 but as many of you know in broodwar the first push in tvp was all about the tank. if the protoss managed to snipe one tank or even 2 they would end up being ahead...
is it because marine dps would still be too high or that banshees could come into your base?
|
On August 22 2011 06:54 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:50 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:44 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:41 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:39 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:36 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:34 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:30 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:28 Medrea wrote:
Koreans and Korean pro's are also complaining of this, even the terrans, and I mean more than just IMMVP though I will differ to him for example. He even has a nickname for NOT 1-1-1 ing all of his protoss opponents.
Come on. When your terran buddy has 400 APM you can have infinite APM and you won't stop it. If a well executed 1-1-1 was stoppable we would be seeing it happen way more than we are. If top level Korean protosses haven't figured it out after playing 12 hours a day then what happens?
Even if there was a protoss build that stops 1-1-1, the mere THREAT of the 1-1-1 boxes you into a very very small corridor. And it just so happens that corridor is vulnerable to OTHER terran one base all-ins? That is a bit silly.
Im gonna stick with Korean pro-level opinion on this one. They also lost to 2 rax all ins like every game for 1 month straight, with nothing changed its no longer a problem. Crazy I know right ? That was with stim iirc. And thats why they nerfed stim. 2 rax is still strong, and it can kill your anti 1-1-1. That is not why they nerfed stim. They nerfed stim for TvP ramp run ups. And all those Z's having problems were dead before stim, most of the time the Terrans never even got gas. It happened for easily a month. Just saying this is not much different. Time will tell. The build has been owning MC and for a while now with no answers emerging. Time has told. Awhile now? How long is awhile to you? I don't remember this 1-1-1 non-sense going on for more than a month. NASL finals 1-1-1 wasn't even being used. puma vs squirtle. 1/1/1 all in, NASL finals. But one or two specific matches through out the history of SC doesn't say much. It's always been around, but in the last few weeks its all of a sudden imba? I don't believe that, I believe Protoss players kept playing greedier and greedier and the meta game made 1-1-1 as effective as it is today. This is what I'm arguing. Until I see a very high level game where there is a 2gate robo opening and a successful and well executed 1-1-1 allin, I cannot really believe the OP.
If Grubby on ladder counts as high level, I saw him hold a 1-1-1 with 2gate robo into 4gate robo stargate off 1 base. Than I saw him hold a delayed 1-1-1 in a similar fashion.
|
On August 22 2011 06:52 Lordwar wrote:
111 is not overpowered, which means it can be beaten
OP does not mean unbeatable.
if there was an unbeatable build, there'd be at least 1 race we'd never see at al in higher level competitions, as they'd ALWAYS get beaten.
|
On August 22 2011 06:54 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:50 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:44 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:41 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:39 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:36 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:34 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:30 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:28 Medrea wrote:
Koreans and Korean pro's are also complaining of this, even the terrans, and I mean more than just IMMVP though I will differ to him for example. He even has a nickname for NOT 1-1-1 ing all of his protoss opponents.
Come on. When your terran buddy has 400 APM you can have infinite APM and you won't stop it. If a well executed 1-1-1 was stoppable we would be seeing it happen way more than we are. If top level Korean protosses haven't figured it out after playing 12 hours a day then what happens?
Even if there was a protoss build that stops 1-1-1, the mere THREAT of the 1-1-1 boxes you into a very very small corridor. And it just so happens that corridor is vulnerable to OTHER terran one base all-ins? That is a bit silly.
Im gonna stick with Korean pro-level opinion on this one. They also lost to 2 rax all ins like every game for 1 month straight, with nothing changed its no longer a problem. Crazy I know right ? That was with stim iirc. And thats why they nerfed stim. 2 rax is still strong, and it can kill your anti 1-1-1. That is not why they nerfed stim. They nerfed stim for TvP ramp run ups. And all those Z's having problems were dead before stim, most of the time the Terrans never even got gas. It happened for easily a month. Just saying this is not much different. Time will tell. The build has been owning MC and for a while now with no answers emerging. Time has told. Awhile now? How long is awhile to you? I don't remember this 1-1-1 non-sense going on for more than a month. NASL finals 1-1-1 wasn't even being used. puma vs squirtle. 1/1/1 all in, NASL finals. But one or two specific matches through out the history of SC doesn't say much. It's always been around, but in the last few weeks its all of a sudden imba? I don't believe that, I believe Protoss players kept playing greedier and greedier and the meta game made 1-1-1 as effective as it is today. This is what I'm arguing. Until I see a very high level game where there is a 2gate robo opening and a successful and well executed 1-1-1 allin, I cannot really believe the OP.
You can't say 1 gate FE is too greedy when it has the best chances of holding it off though. You really can't 1 base the terran back, you'll get choked out in the mid game. If you one base colossus , the terran will see it before committing to the 1-1-1 anyway.
|
On August 22 2011 06:51 kheldorin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:49 Mylkyjo wrote:On August 22 2011 06:41 fraktoasters wrote:
I can't believe Blizzard hasn't modified the bunker even once and now no single Zerg ever loses to a bunker rush. Zergs lose 0% of the time now, you can't even find a game in gsl recently where a Zerg loses because of a 2 rax, especially with the really good Zergs like Losira.
I agree with your sentiments but I just wanted to point out + Show Spoiler +Losira vs oGsEnsnare, Losira never recovers from a painful 2 rax I think you missed the joke. Blizzard have tweaked the bunker mechanic almost every patch that it has become a running joke.
WHOOOSH!!! Yeah, I missed it...
I thought he was making a serious point that Zerg learned to deal with that build without a major nerf, as Protoss will probably learn to deal with a 1/1/1 without the need of a patch.
|
111 is not overpowered, which means it can be beaten
This is just as bad as calling OP at everything that wins, especially considering the statistics. you offer nothing but your own opinion backed up by absolutely nothing.
explain why or don't post, reading "its OP" or "its not OP" is just a waste of time/space
|
Okay, heres the deal guys.
111 attack comes at 8 minute mark, what can protos do? forge fe and mass zealots and just as many stalkers you need to kill banshees. You also can get observer out just in time in case of cloacked banshees.
|
Thats the game I mentioned earlier and we already discussed this I believe.
|
On August 22 2011 06:47 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:42 Carbonthief wrote:
I have a question. Liquid'Tyler has stated his belief that the economic advantage of fast expanding is not incredibly necessary, and others have followed this statement up by basically saying the 111 is just Terran responding to Protoss FE metagame, and that maybe Protoss shouldn't FE.
Well. How does fast expanding hurt your chances of holding off a 111? It seems completely irrelevant to me to blame it on a Protoss FE. The 111 hits AFTER, long after, the FE has already kicked in and payed for itself. It seems like the FE can ONLY help. I don't understand what possible benefit you could reap by not FEing. you're 100% correct. That's why no one can back up the claim the 1 basing is the best response. Tyler says the economic advantage is not necessary... well lets see a high level even match where that is true and the terran hasnt gifted the game. I know he's never done it in a televised match. Maybe hes talking about ladder players? Or the CPUs he practices his 111 defense against.
I'm sure tyler would crush you if you two played. I'm doing what you are doing. Questioning your skill instead of attacking your argument
|
On August 22 2011 06:52 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:26 Jayrod wrote:On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. If Blizzard chooses to nerf the 1-1-1 allins, they are truly balancing with the metagame. Balancing with the metagame is the completely WRONG way to balance the game. Theyre are BOTH wrong. This isn't broodwar. Just because a build is safe from "not dying" doesnt mean its safe for winning the game. These "safe" builds put you astronomically behind, hence why both of those players are unable to compete with their peers consistently. I say these openings "yield economically sound mid games" and you say that they "put you astronomically behind". What's the point? What's the point of simply contradicting my assessment of the strength of a robo or star opening's economy? By the way, I'm pretty sure that lack of practice is the thing holding me back, not build orders. If anything, you should take a careful and respectful look at how I approach the game because I'm able to hang with pros despite playing maybe a tenth or a fifth of the amount they do. Hell, if you don't count games played to get back in shape as practice, then I practice even less than a tenth. As for Artosis, I hate to say it but the guy has a really hard time getting good enough mechanics to do his knowledge and understanding justice. Artosis and I are two of the very few people that, for objective reasons, ought to be listened to despite not being the current best players in the world. I'm sure there are many others but we have the public history. But you can just leave it. You don't have to give my posts any more notice than any other poster here if you don't want to. However, making a misinformed argument to especially ignore my posts is not cool.
Your way of approaching the game is definitely something other players can look up to, and I believe that your safe approach to the game is something other players should learn to do. However, do you believe 1 base play or such a late expo can beat 1/1/1? The op specifically said that 1 gate FE and 15 Nexus are the ONLY ways of holding (and they hold less than 80% of the time), do you disagree? I would love to know how you would go about countering the build if you had the knowledge your opponent was gonna 1/1/1 you?
|
On August 22 2011 06:42 Carbonthief wrote:
I have a question. Liquid'Tyler has stated his belief that the economic advantage of fast expanding is not incredibly necessary, and others have followed this statement up by basically saying the 111 is just Terran responding to Protoss FE metagame, and that maybe Protoss shouldn't FE.
Well. How does fast expanding hurt your chances of holding off a 111? It seems completely irrelevant to me to blame it on a Protoss FE. The 111 hits AFTER, long after, the FE has already kicked in and payed for itself. It seems like the FE can ONLY help. I don't understand what possible benefit you could reap by not FEing.
I think the assertion is that people are investing in their FE, which has returns in terms of economy and resources, but not information. He is saying that 1 gate robo and 1 gate star will give you a very similar economy going into the mid game (you can expand if you see an expansion or non-all-in play), but will get the necessary information to react appropriately. The 1-1-1 build isn't this super-human thing that can never be beaten even if you know about it. If you were to tell MC you are doing it this game, he would easily crush it. The problem is scouting it early enough.
In one hand, you need the economy to keep up with mules to be able to invest in an adequate defense. On the other hand, you need to invest in scouting early enough to see if it is actually coming. Tyler is asserting that you can scout it and then be able to defend it easily. Everyone agrees on this point. However, I think people are saying that if you do use these economically weak (or weaker) openings, then you are behind if the Terran is doing anything other than a 1-1-1.
I think it totally sucks in the sense that if 1-gate Pheonix is the standard, then so many of the PvT match up has to change from a P point of view. They will need to adjust their play and deal with different things a T puts their way in different ways (from what they do now.) I honestly like MC's solution in Game 3. The pheonix are good to scout, and to harras + delay (20 seconds or however long you can get.) If you see normal play, you can expand normally to your natural. If you see 1-1-1, you expand across map and abuse blink stalkers. I think MC lost the game due to small things like losing the two pheoninx and some questionable decision making. Whether he can transition into a normal game where he is not behind if the T expands is a question I can't answer.
I just hope it isn't nerfed for another month. I think there is a solution and people need time to not only find it, but perfect it.
|
its sooo funny because this allin is soooo old....when i played protoss last year i already had to deal with 1-1-1's ....and after months now everybody screams about this build.....there will be a way to stop it properly...the pros should invent better phoenix builds....everytime i won vs 1-1-1 i had a phoenix opening....they are super good vs banshee and they can lift siegetanks + you have mapcontrol and very good informations about the terran.....come on pros, dont wine and go for stargates!  ))
|
4gate robo stargate
and we thought 4 gate was all-in lol
but interesting. ofc we'd have to see the game, but if more than a handful of cases of 1 basing are working, there might be something to it.
|
On August 22 2011 06:57 Lordwar wrote:
Okay, heres the deal guys.
111 attack comes at 8 minute mark, what can protos do? forge fe and mass zealots and just as many stalkers you need to kill banshees. You also can get observer out just in time in case of cloacked banshees.
Is it 8 minutes exactly? The earliest one I mean.
Cuz my defense is set to hold off the 9:40 second one.
So many variations. All terran is doing is massing units inside his base. And they all have different builds to counter them.
Im listening to MVP.
|
On August 22 2011 06:50 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:47 Jayrod wrote:On August 22 2011 06:42 Carbonthief wrote:
I have a question. Liquid'Tyler has stated his belief that the economic advantage of fast expanding is not incredibly necessary, and others have followed this statement up by basically saying the 111 is just Terran responding to Protoss FE metagame, and that maybe Protoss shouldn't FE.
Well. How does fast expanding hurt your chances of holding off a 111? It seems completely irrelevant to me to blame it on a Protoss FE. The 111 hits AFTER, long after, the FE has already kicked in and payed for itself. It seems like the FE can ONLY help. I don't understand what possible benefit you could reap by not FEing. you're 100% correct. That's why no one can back up the claim the 1 basing is the best response. Tyler says the economic advantage is not necessary... well lets see a high level even match where that is true and the terran hasnt gifted the game. I know he's never done it in a televised match. Maybe hes talking about ladder players? Or the CPUs he practices his 111 defense against. This sounds like a massive Tyler bash than anything else. Don't really understand it. Tyler is saying the lack of scouting information from such an early expand doesn't outweigh the economic advantage you could get. The whole OP is also talking about scouting information and how if you do fast expand you can deal with 1/1/1 but you could lose to other things hence you in this strange situation. Tyler says you can get that scouting information early and still be find on eco in midgame. Don't bash people so aggressively for absolutely no reason.
If you 1 gate expand (nexus built at 20-24 food) with 2 gateways thrown down with chronoboosted warpgate... you can deal decently with a variety of things:
2 rax (Look up some Huk replays)
Cloaked banshee harass (MC made a robo after his 2nd and 3rd gateways were built)
1-1-1
1 rax expand
marine scv all in (you can make 5 stalkers when he decides to push out and keep kiting)
So using game 1 as an example, MC was ready for anything that the terran could pop out from 7-10 minutes, and this is just from seeing marines at the ramp.
|
On August 22 2011 06:57 Lordwar wrote:
Okay, heres the deal guys.
111 attack comes at 8 minute mark, what can protos do? forge fe and mass zealots and just as many stalkers you need to kill banshees. You also can get observer out just in time in case of cloacked banshees.
....Forge fast expand...against terran.
Btw MC v Puma MC went like...1gate stargate into 3 or 4 gate blink stalker and there was no point where he could have engaged Puma's army. When it came down to having a final confrontation he lost. 1gate stargate to scout also puts you more economically behind if you fast expand afterwards, the stargate is almost worthless when it comes time to confront the push. I don't see how that is a solution at all.
|
On August 22 2011 06:58 gwaihir wrote:its sooo funny because this allin is soooo old....when i played protoss last year i already had to deal with 1-1-1's ....and after months now everybody screams about this build.....there will be a way to stop it properly...the pros should invent better phoenix builds....everytime i won vs 1-1-1 i had a phoenix opening....they are super good vs banshee and they can lift siegetanks + you have mapcontrol and very good informations about the terran.....come on pros, dont wine and go for stargates! ))
That build loses to 2 rax.
|
On August 22 2011 06:56 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:54 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:50 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:44 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:41 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:39 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:36 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:34 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:30 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:28 Medrea wrote:
Koreans and Korean pro's are also complaining of this, even the terrans, and I mean more than just IMMVP though I will differ to him for example. He even has a nickname for NOT 1-1-1 ing all of his protoss opponents.
Come on. When your terran buddy has 400 APM you can have infinite APM and you won't stop it. If a well executed 1-1-1 was stoppable we would be seeing it happen way more than we are. If top level Korean protosses haven't figured it out after playing 12 hours a day then what happens?
Even if there was a protoss build that stops 1-1-1, the mere THREAT of the 1-1-1 boxes you into a very very small corridor. And it just so happens that corridor is vulnerable to OTHER terran one base all-ins? That is a bit silly.
Im gonna stick with Korean pro-level opinion on this one. They also lost to 2 rax all ins like every game for 1 month straight, with nothing changed its no longer a problem. Crazy I know right ? That was with stim iirc. And thats why they nerfed stim. 2 rax is still strong, and it can kill your anti 1-1-1. That is not why they nerfed stim. They nerfed stim for TvP ramp run ups. And all those Z's having problems were dead before stim, most of the time the Terrans never even got gas. It happened for easily a month. Just saying this is not much different. Time will tell. The build has been owning MC and for a while now with no answers emerging. Time has told. Awhile now? How long is awhile to you? I don't remember this 1-1-1 non-sense going on for more than a month. NASL finals 1-1-1 wasn't even being used. puma vs squirtle. 1/1/1 all in, NASL finals. But one or two specific matches through out the history of SC doesn't say much. It's always been around, but in the last few weeks its all of a sudden imba? I don't believe that, I believe Protoss players kept playing greedier and greedier and the meta game made 1-1-1 as effective as it is today. This is what I'm arguing. Until I see a very high level game where there is a 2gate robo opening and a successful and well executed 1-1-1 allin, I cannot really believe the OP. You can't say 1 gate FE is too greedy when it has the best chances of holding it off though. You really can't 1 base the terran back, you'll get choked out in the mid game. If you one base colossus , the terran will see it before committing to the 1-1-1 anyway.
There does not have to be a mid game if you beat his push... You can just kill him outright. Even if you only come out a little ahead in the battle and cannot counter attack, you still have more workers and more units which can set you up for a better midgame.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
