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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 22 2011 06:41 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:39 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:36 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:34 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:30 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:28 Medrea wrote:
Koreans and Korean pro's are also complaining of this, even the terrans, and I mean more than just IMMVP though I will differ to him for example. He even has a nickname for NOT 1-1-1 ing all of his protoss opponents.
Come on. When your terran buddy has 400 APM you can have infinite APM and you won't stop it. If a well executed 1-1-1 was stoppable we would be seeing it happen way more than we are. If top level Korean protosses haven't figured it out after playing 12 hours a day then what happens?
Even if there was a protoss build that stops 1-1-1, the mere THREAT of the 1-1-1 boxes you into a very very small corridor. And it just so happens that corridor is vulnerable to OTHER terran one base all-ins? That is a bit silly.
Im gonna stick with Korean pro-level opinion on this one. They also lost to 2 rax all ins like every game for 1 month straight, with nothing changed its no longer a problem. Crazy I know right ? That was with stim iirc. And thats why they nerfed stim. 2 rax is still strong, and it can kill your anti 1-1-1. That is not why they nerfed stim. They nerfed stim for TvP ramp run ups. And all those Z's having problems were dead before stim, most of the time the Terrans never even got gas. It happened for easily a month. Just saying this is not much different. Time will tell. The build has been owning MC and for a while now with no answers emerging. Time has told. Awhile now? How long is awhile to you? I don't remember this 1-1-1 non-sense going on for more than a month. NASL finals 1-1-1 wasn't even being used.
Its been around since beta.
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On August 22 2011 06:50 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:44 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:41 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:39 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:36 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:34 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:30 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:28 Medrea wrote:
Koreans and Korean pro's are also complaining of this, even the terrans, and I mean more than just IMMVP though I will differ to him for example. He even has a nickname for NOT 1-1-1 ing all of his protoss opponents.
Come on. When your terran buddy has 400 APM you can have infinite APM and you won't stop it. If a well executed 1-1-1 was stoppable we would be seeing it happen way more than we are. If top level Korean protosses haven't figured it out after playing 12 hours a day then what happens?
Even if there was a protoss build that stops 1-1-1, the mere THREAT of the 1-1-1 boxes you into a very very small corridor. And it just so happens that corridor is vulnerable to OTHER terran one base all-ins? That is a bit silly.
Im gonna stick with Korean pro-level opinion on this one. They also lost to 2 rax all ins like every game for 1 month straight, with nothing changed its no longer a problem. Crazy I know right ? That was with stim iirc. And thats why they nerfed stim. 2 rax is still strong, and it can kill your anti 1-1-1. That is not why they nerfed stim. They nerfed stim for TvP ramp run ups. And all those Z's having problems were dead before stim, most of the time the Terrans never even got gas. It happened for easily a month. Just saying this is not much different. Time will tell. The build has been owning MC and for a while now with no answers emerging. Time has told. Awhile now? How long is awhile to you? I don't remember this 1-1-1 non-sense going on for more than a month. NASL finals 1-1-1 wasn't even being used. puma vs squirtle. 1/1/1 all in, NASL finals. But one or two specific matches through out the history of SC doesn't say much. It's always been around, but in the last few weeks its all of a sudden imba? I don't believe that, I believe Protoss players kept playing greedier and greedier and the meta game made 1-1-1 as effective as it is today.
Lol, Polt was destroying protoss (MC included) with this build in September of 2010, and he never stopped using it in PvT up until he won GSL. Many other Terrans have been using it forever it as well. The only big difference between now and then is a couple of nerfs to protoss and more refinement of the 1-1-1 build.
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On August 22 2011 07:05 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:04 branflakes14 wrote:That looked more like poor play from MarineKing than anything else. It was. Look at the build and timing compared to 1-1-1s nowadays. MarineKing's build order isn't refined whatsoever.
And you know better than MarineKing. Good to know.
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I honestly think that a quick expo with a robo and mass gates can be safe, but the variations that are common now don't work so I'm not sure how it would be able to get tweaked to work.
Maybe some variation with a focus on a safe nexus, potentially lots of zealots, and an ultra quick observer to scout.
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On August 22 2011 07:10 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:07 kheldorin wrote:On August 22 2011 07:05 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:01 kheldorin wrote:On August 22 2011 07:00 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:56 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:54 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:50 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:44 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:41 DooMDash wrote:
[quote]
Awhile now? How long is awhile to you? I don't remember this 1-1-1 non-sense going on for more than a month. NASL finals 1-1-1 wasn't even being used.
puma vs squirtle. 1/1/1 all in, NASL finals. But one or two specific matches through out the history of SC doesn't say much. It's always been around, but in the last few weeks its all of a sudden imba? I don't believe that, I believe Protoss players kept playing greedier and greedier and the meta game made 1-1-1 as effective as it is today. This is what I'm arguing. Until I see a very high level game where there is a 2gate robo opening and a successful and well executed 1-1-1 allin, I cannot really believe the OP. You can't say 1 gate FE is too greedy when it has the best chances of holding it off though. You really can't 1 base the terran back, you'll get choked out in the mid game. If you one base colossus , the terran will see it before committing to the 1-1-1 anyway. There does not have to be a mid game if you beat his push... You can just kill him outright. Even if you only come out a little ahead in the battle and cannot counter attack, you still have more workers and more units which can set you up for a better midgame. You can't. He'll just bunker up in front of your base. And it's still over. Read the article. If you're going for 3-gate robo with an extremely late expo, you should not let him build those bunkers. If you do then it's an extreme blunder on the protoss' part. With what exactly? With a pdd down and siege tanks protecting it, the bunkers will go down. Once the bunkers are down, the scvs will return and they will switch to viking production. You should have enough units if you're doing 3-gate robo. And why would you let him get a free siege at the bottom of your ramp?
You don't have enough units if you're teching to Colossus off 1 base. And if you're not doing that, then a 1 Gate FE has more units out at the 9:30 mark with a better economy.
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On August 22 2011 07:10 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:07 kheldorin wrote:On August 22 2011 07:05 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:01 kheldorin wrote:On August 22 2011 07:00 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:56 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:54 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:50 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:44 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:41 DooMDash wrote:
[quote]
Awhile now? How long is awhile to you? I don't remember this 1-1-1 non-sense going on for more than a month. NASL finals 1-1-1 wasn't even being used.
puma vs squirtle. 1/1/1 all in, NASL finals. But one or two specific matches through out the history of SC doesn't say much. It's always been around, but in the last few weeks its all of a sudden imba? I don't believe that, I believe Protoss players kept playing greedier and greedier and the meta game made 1-1-1 as effective as it is today. This is what I'm arguing. Until I see a very high level game where there is a 2gate robo opening and a successful and well executed 1-1-1 allin, I cannot really believe the OP. You can't say 1 gate FE is too greedy when it has the best chances of holding it off though. You really can't 1 base the terran back, you'll get choked out in the mid game. If you one base colossus , the terran will see it before committing to the 1-1-1 anyway. There does not have to be a mid game if you beat his push... You can just kill him outright. Even if you only come out a little ahead in the battle and cannot counter attack, you still have more workers and more units which can set you up for a better midgame. You can't. He'll just bunker up in front of your base. And it's still over. Read the article. If you're going for 3-gate robo with an extremely late expo, you should not let him build those bunkers. If you do then it's an extreme blunder on the protoss' part. With what exactly? With a pdd down and siege tanks protecting it, the bunkers will go down. Once the bunkers are down, the scvs will return and they will switch to viking production. You should have enough units if you're doing 3-gate robo. And why would you let him get a free siege at the bottom of your ramp?
You won't have enough units. That's the entire point of the freaking article. If you go, 1-gate FE or 15 nexus, you will actually have MORE units when the 1-1-1 hits. The extra chronoboost would also help.
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This was a particularly fast 1/1/1, with no raven. Otherwise all of those stalkers would have been far less useful. Plus, protoss went gate, nexus, gate, robo with no idea what build terran had coming.
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On August 22 2011 06:50 zarepath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:45 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:44 zarepath wrote:On August 22 2011 06:41 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:40 Sprouter wrote:
what happened to hallucination? was it removed in a balance patch? You have to get warp gate first. By the time the hallucination is done and in the terran base, you need to have already committed to a defense against the 1-1-1. Basically Hallucination is worthless against 1-1-1. This may sound a lot like a "use more nydus" strat... but what about double cybercore? You actually COULD get both hallucination and warp gate in time. Of course, that is a ridiculous cost to do it. At that expense (250-100) you can get a robo with obs (275-175). Not exact, but similar. But you can start the cyber core before you'd be able to start the robo. The issue isn't so much cost as it is time, as I gather from this thread. I'm just theorycrafting, though, and I should probably stop. I'll echo my earlier sentiment that I'd love to see some replays illustrating why Tyler's so wrong if he IS wrong.
It is still too late, hallu would still come long after you had to decide on a response.
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What if you could hit a timing while they're teching up and don't have enough defenses?
What I'm thinking is to go zealot->sentry->stalker first and get halluc asap. Halluc a phoenix asap and if he's doing a 1/1/1 go for a 4gate blink. I think you could blink into the base (with halluc phoenix) and bypass the bunker that's more or less holding him alive. Would this work?
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TBH i think the easiest fix would be to remove the banshee. obviously that's not going to happen but i don't think something like 40 hp marine with combat shields giving +15 would really fix it. worth a shot though, for sure.
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this kinda radical sounding but what if toss was able to get robo before cybercore but NOT able to get support bay without a cybercore?
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On August 22 2011 07:10 JackDanger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:07 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:04 blooblooblahblah wrote:On August 22 2011 07:00 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:56 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:54 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:50 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:44 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:41 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:39 Jinivus wrote:
[quote]
The build has been owning MC and for a while now with no answers emerging. Time has told. Awhile now? How long is awhile to you? I don't remember this 1-1-1 non-sense going on for more than a month. NASL finals 1-1-1 wasn't even being used. puma vs squirtle. 1/1/1 all in, NASL finals. But one or two specific matches through out the history of SC doesn't say much. It's always been around, but in the last few weeks its all of a sudden imba? I don't believe that, I believe Protoss players kept playing greedier and greedier and the meta game made 1-1-1 as effective as it is today. This is what I'm arguing. Until I see a very high level game where there is a 2gate robo opening and a successful and well executed 1-1-1 allin, I cannot really believe the OP. You can't say 1 gate FE is too greedy when it has the best chances of holding it off though. You really can't 1 base the terran back, you'll get choked out in the mid game. If you one base colossus , the terran will see it before committing to the 1-1-1 anyway. There does not have to be a mid game if you beat his push... You can just kill him outright. Even if you only come out a little ahead in the battle and cannot counter attack, you still have more workers and more units which can set you up for a better midgame. This would be true if there was a reactive 1base build tht could actually hold it off. I'm quite certain that 3-gate robo wrecks the 1-1-1 allin unless you engage in a TERRIBLE position or let him bunker up (which there is no reason you should let him). What exactly makes you so certain of this.
Just from experience. Of course, nothing is so certain without a high level example. Since I haven't really seen any 2-gate robo builds at the highest level, we can just go back and fourth with no evidence. Which would be pointless.
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On August 22 2011 07:12 LicH. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:05 Heavenly wrote:On August 22 2011 07:04 branflakes14 wrote:That looked more like poor play from MarineKing than anything else. It was. Look at the build and timing compared to 1-1-1s nowadays. MarineKing's build order isn't refined whatsoever. And you know better than MarineKing. Good to know.
Lmao wtf? What kind of fallacious argument is that? That was months ago before anyone ever refined the build. Yes I do know better than MarineKing did back then, and now MarineKing knows significantly better than he did. Do what I said, look at the build and timing compared to current 1-1-1's, and you'll see why his build got so roflstomped.
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On August 22 2011 07:13 Chvol wrote:This was a particularly fast 1/1/1, with no raven. Otherwise all of those stalkers would have been far less useful. Plus, protoss went gate, nexus, gate, robo with no idea what build terran had coming.
But wait, i've always heard the exact opposite from your kind, that a 1-1-1 comes "too late because he got a raven, and thats why he failed."
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On August 22 2011 07:14 Huntz wrote:
TBH i think the easiest fix would be to remove the banshee. obviously that's not going to happen but i don't think something like 40 hp marine with combat shields giving +15 would really fix it. worth a shot though, for sure.
Gah too extreme. My idea was to tone down the damage of banshees and make there current damage only extend to light units. And thats IT. No more.
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4gate blink
I dont know the timings but im pretty sure they'd have tanks out in time for a 4 gate blink. Regardless, being forced to all-in every time you see no marauder/1 gas is imbalanced anyways, easily abused
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On August 22 2011 07:15 LicH. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:13 Chvol wrote:This was a particularly fast 1/1/1, with no raven. Otherwise all of those stalkers would have been far less useful. Plus, protoss went gate, nexus, gate, robo with no idea what build terran had coming. But wait, i've always heard the exact opposite from your kind, that a 1-1-1 comes "too late because he got a raven, and thats why he failed."
I don't think any single person has ever said that ever.
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On August 22 2011 07:13 kheldorin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 07:10 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:07 kheldorin wrote:On August 22 2011 07:05 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 07:01 kheldorin wrote:On August 22 2011 07:00 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:56 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:54 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:50 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:44 Jinivus wrote:
[quote]
puma vs squirtle. 1/1/1 all in, NASL finals. But one or two specific matches through out the history of SC doesn't say much. It's always been around, but in the last few weeks its all of a sudden imba? I don't believe that, I believe Protoss players kept playing greedier and greedier and the meta game made 1-1-1 as effective as it is today. This is what I'm arguing. Until I see a very high level game where there is a 2gate robo opening and a successful and well executed 1-1-1 allin, I cannot really believe the OP. You can't say 1 gate FE is too greedy when it has the best chances of holding it off though. You really can't 1 base the terran back, you'll get choked out in the mid game. If you one base colossus , the terran will see it before committing to the 1-1-1 anyway. There does not have to be a mid game if you beat his push... You can just kill him outright. Even if you only come out a little ahead in the battle and cannot counter attack, you still have more workers and more units which can set you up for a better midgame. You can't. He'll just bunker up in front of your base. And it's still over. Read the article. If you're going for 3-gate robo with an extremely late expo, you should not let him build those bunkers. If you do then it's an extreme blunder on the protoss' part. With what exactly? With a pdd down and siege tanks protecting it, the bunkers will go down. Once the bunkers are down, the scvs will return and they will switch to viking production. You should have enough units if you're doing 3-gate robo. And why would you let him get a free siege at the bottom of your ramp? You won't have enough units. That's the entire point of the freaking article. If you go, 1-gate FE or 15 nexus, you will actually have MORE units when the 1-1-1 hits. The extra chronoboost would also help.
Like I said, I'd have to see a high level example of this. I cannot believe the OP when particularly my 1-1-1 allins have been easily beaten by the process I'm explaining.
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On August 22 2011 06:58 gwaihir wrote:its sooo funny because this allin is soooo old....when i played protoss last year i already had to deal with 1-1-1's ....and after months now everybody screams about this build.....there will be a way to stop it properly...the pros should invent better phoenix builds....everytime i won vs 1-1-1 i had a phoenix opening....they are super good vs banshee and they can lift siegetanks + you have mapcontrol and very good informations about the terran.....come on pros, dont wine and go for stargates!  ))
How many times do we have to say, 1-1-1 was previously weak to 4gate, the warpgate nerf removed the Protoss ability to punish such a tech heavy opening from terran.
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I really find 1-1-1 very easy to counter, as long as you went for a 15 nexus, 1gate expand, 1gate robo or 1 gate stargate.
If, with a 1gate expand you face an allin with bio and scv, you just have to go back your ramp, wait for colossi and push the terran. Sacrifying your nexus won't put you behind, don't worry!
I don't understand why koreans have problem with it but I think that this is because of the very standard 3gate expand build in korea which is a very weak build against a 1-1-1 allin.
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EPT
