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On August 17 2011 15:03 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:01 deerpark87 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:58 Azzur wrote:On August 17 2011 14:53 vertical101 wrote:
the only korean team who handle this professionaly is SlayerS they back out before the contract they keep communicating with NASL. funny this team is not in SC2con but act more professionaly than SC2con teams. seriously we need slayers_jessica as head of SC2con Boxer is the model of conduct. Speculation: This is why Slayers have sponsors - sponsors only want to negotiate with professional teams. I can also speculate that reason why only MLG, IPL, and GOM has sponsors. Sponsor only wants to negotiate with professional leagues. NASL has sponsors and nothing they did in this matter was unprofessional, except perhaps releasing receipts to prove the TIG guy wrong about deposits, and that's only because they don't have to stoop to that level, their word should have been enough and they're giving into the public too much.
Season 2 is here and i am still trying to figure out who is sponsoring. Please enlighten me if you know. There is reason why people feel NASL is unprofessional and wanting to back out of it.
Edit: i am done. going to sleep 2am..
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Sounds like these Korean teams expect a lot. Those are some pretty lofty demands, especially "fix the poor operation." It sounds like the Korean teams didn't cut the NASL as much slack as the community did for it being their first event, (which wasn't much) and they expect over the top accommodations. These demands sound a little pricey, especially considering it's not a tournament by invitation. They chose to compete based on the conditions that were presented, and pulling out at the last second was very bad business of them. Citing issues that the NASL had does not cover up for the Korean team's mistake.
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On August 17 2011 15:06 Dante_A_ wrote:
It sounds like the Korean players found the event produced poorly and overall pretty amateurish. I can understand not wanting to pay a steep security deposit for a league that hasn't indicated it has any staying power.
It doesn't sound as much like a list of demands, but rather that the Korean teams are saying, "hey, just run this thing well and treat the players like MLG and GSL treat their players, and we will come play". Yet people are acting like they are demanding for something more than that. What are they demanding more of than what MLG offers? Not coincidentally, there seems to be a fantastic relationship between the MLG and the Korean teams.
I've also seen several people say "the prize $ should be enough to come" but also say "you need the security deposit to ensure that players will show up for games". Can't you see the disconnect there? If the prize money is enough than there is no need for a security deposit.
Well I disagree with your first statement, i think NASL HAS proven to have a lot of staying power, they had nearly record-breaking viewership rates on a consistent basis for the course of 3 months.
They have some things to change but that's not something you treat with suspicion...it's pretty much a given that any company improves over time and experience. NASL improved drastically over their first season alone, so it's not like they have shown that they don't listen to critique.
I do see the list of small demands that have broke the camel's back as Milkies said, but I guess my problem is then that it seems in the negotiations they didn't bring them up, they only brought up travel expenses and security deposits. And not even themselves directly, but through 3rd parties and such.
I think this could have been handled a lot better on the Koreans' side as well. If they felt so badly and so angry about these small mistakes NASL made, the natural course of actions is to pull an NASL member aside, or message him later and say, "You know what, you did this, this is not good, because ____."
Instead, none of the team managers messaged NASL even once about the matter. Which led to a lot of miscommunication between NASL and the mediators which might have led to the Koreans feeling "attacked" by NASL. The thing is, it's frustrating trying to negotiate when you don't even know who you're negotiating with and you can't speak with them directly about what they want. (I know this personally) When you go through several people, it's like playing telephone and something always gets lost, or is delayed because you have to go back and clarify what the original person meant and blah blah blah. I totally understand NASL's frustration on that, it's a horrible way to negotiate and to express feedback.
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NASL just being unprofessional once again. Why I'm not surprised?
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4 out of 5 SotG casters agree that that korean teams acted unprofessionally and the 5th was JP (the host) who brilliantly avoided broching an opinion at all. Why should any weight be put on a coaches requests on a league IN WHICH HE WAS IN NO WAY INVOLVED?
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Rather than them calling it a "mistake" for NASL to not fully accommodate them, I wish they would just say "unfortunately it's too expensive for NASL too accommodate us, so we can't participate."
It's not really anyone's fault.
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On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:
[quote]
Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either.
They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? Did NASL do that? Quote please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams. EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there. I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out. This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves
It's not an opinion thing.
If they were being inflammatory and bashing, it would be evident to everybody reading.
The fact that you consider your impression of the post an "opinion" already says a lot about whether your view is right or not.
I only ask that you or these so called many people who agree with you to SHOW where nasl bashed/insulted/attacked the Koreans.
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On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:
[quote]
Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either.
They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? Did NASL do that? Quote please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams. EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there. I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out. This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves
You keep saying the post was inflammatory and non professional. All I want is for you to highlight which parts you feel are that way. Just a few examples is all I'm saying. If it's really that bad, that should be no problem
And why do you bring up the issue of a 'significant number of people agree with me'? Is it supposed to impress me? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with my viewpoint in this entire thread. Citing numbers as a way to say you're right doesn't guarantee you are.
A 'significant number of people' believe that the USA was behind 9/11 or that the Holocaust didn't happen. Does that make them right? I don't think so.
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That's exactly what im saying, do whatever it takes to get top koreans in your league. People want to see the best players, i personally think not watching just because some players are getting better treatment (nothing to do with sc2 games at all) is total bullshit. More people would watch than wouldnt.
On August 17 2011 15:07 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:02 shizzycs wrote:
Okay, I know a lot of you are losing respect for the korean teams.. but at the end of the day, they're the best starcraft 2 players, and they're the ones everyone wants to watch. That being said, the simple fact is.. NASL will not make as much money/fewer people will actually watch the stream now that koreans are no longer participating in their league.
NASL should listen to this, and fix their league accordingly, instead of blaming everything on the koreans. You wanna make money NASL? Get the koreans back into your league, because now that koreans aren't even participating, I know for damn certain i'm not going to be watching NASL this season. So what, NASL should bend over backwards and do whatever the koreans want just to get them back in? If they did that, I for one wouldn't watch NASL anymore because I wouldn't respect a league that caves in to a certain select grp even if they are the best. It cheapens the integrity of the whole league if there are players getting special treatment.
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How do you get more "official" than TL? xD
It's officially the most kickass site EVER.
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On August 17 2011 15:11 D0N32 wrote:
Sounds like these Korean teams expect a lot. Those are some pretty lofty demands, especially "fix the poor operation." It sounds like the Korean teams didn't cut the NASL as much slack as the community did for it being their first event, (which wasn't much) and they expect over the top accommodations. These demands sound a little pricey, especially considering it's not a tournament by invitation. They chose to compete based on the conditions that were presented, and pulling out at the last second was very bad business of them. Citing issues that the NASL had does not cover up for the Korean team's mistake.
Read the article.
The season 2 qualifiers were before the grand finals event. "Waiting until the last moment to pull out" is NASL spin. Deceitful amateurs running NASL, like Xeris.
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korean is good at creating drama.
foreigner is good at hyping,announcement - very useful talent toi have
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On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:20 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:18 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 14:17 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:15 L3gendary wrote:
[quote]
Yes but do foreigners make demands to the gsl about it? No. They dont sign contracts saying they will play and then back out at the last moment either.
They simply dont go. does the GSL then make posts all over playXP about how the foreigners wronged them and are being babies like how NASL did on TL? Did NASL do that? Quote please. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750or did you miss then entire community news thing. The whole post is just bashing on the korean/korean teams. EDIT:: to be more precise, the whole thing reads like an angry/raging joe average poster instead of the representative of a league annoucing news All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there. I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out. This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves
This was clearly an unprofessional move only on behalf of the Korean teams. Korean's said the NASL was unprofessional and cited the time that was spent waiting in between games. The NASL attempted to combat that directly by making the players put up a security deposit, which the Koreans refused to make. This is clearly the Korean teams attempting to play hardball and push around a foreign league. They just pushed too far with their demands and the NASL was forced to separate. The Koreans now think that they can just sit back and watch the NASL fail, because of the lack of talent. Weather or not they succeed without the best players in the world is yet to be seen.
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On August 17 2011 15:18 shizzycs wrote:That's exactly what im saying, do whatever it takes to get top koreans in your league. People want to see the best players, i personally think not watching just because some players are getting better treatment (nothing to do with sc2 games at all) is total bullshit. More people would watch than wouldnt. Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:07 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:02 shizzycs wrote:
Okay, I know a lot of you are losing respect for the korean teams.. but at the end of the day, they're the best starcraft 2 players, and they're the ones everyone wants to watch. That being said, the simple fact is.. NASL will not make as much money/fewer people will actually watch the stream now that koreans are no longer participating in their league.
NASL should listen to this, and fix their league accordingly, instead of blaming everything on the koreans. You wanna make money NASL? Get the koreans back into your league, because now that koreans aren't even participating, I know for damn certain i'm not going to be watching NASL this season. So what, NASL should bend over backwards and do whatever the koreans want just to get them back in? If they did that, I for one wouldn't watch NASL anymore because I wouldn't respect a league that caves in to a certain select grp even if they are the best. It cheapens the integrity of the whole league if there are players getting special treatment.
But how can one do that if the team managers won't even talk to you about their concerns? None of the team managers messaged NASL even once about the matter. It's frustrating trying to negotiate when you don't even know who you're negotiating with and you can't speak with them directly about what they want.
Why are all these people who withdrew during negotiations were hiding behind this veil of "We don't know who made the decision, we don't know anything," yet when it's appropriate they come out with statements acting like thy sat down with NASL and talked? They didn't.
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On August 17 2011 13:06 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:02 sirkyex wrote:
I foresee a contradiction. NASL had a problem with walkovers and people not showing up for matches on time in the league so they raised the deposits so its more of a penalty for flaking out. Koreans want them to eliminate deposit and make sure people show up on time for matches.... suggestions? Problem is not that people don't show up on time. It's that when they don't, people who did show up on time (koreans) had to wait.
Europeans have the same problem, yet i don't see bitching / teams withdrawing.
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On August 17 2011 15:20 epik640x wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:11 D0N32 wrote:
Sounds like these Korean teams expect a lot. Those are some pretty lofty demands, especially "fix the poor operation." It sounds like the Korean teams didn't cut the NASL as much slack as the community did for it being their first event, (which wasn't much) and they expect over the top accommodations. These demands sound a little pricey, especially considering it's not a tournament by invitation. They chose to compete based on the conditions that were presented, and pulling out at the last second was very bad business of them. Citing issues that the NASL had does not cover up for the Korean team's mistake. Read the article. The season 2 qualifiers were before the grand finals event. "Waiting until the last moment to pull out" is NASL spin. Deceitful amateurs running NASL, like Xeris.
Wrong. The S2 qualifiers were before the finals, that part is right. But the signing of the contracts was AFTER, WAY AFTER the finals were over. And then it was like a week and half after that when they pulled out, once S2 had already started filming. So yeah it was waiting till the last moment.
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On August 17 2011 15:02 shizzycs wrote:
Okay, I know a lot of you are losing respect for the korean teams.. but at the end of the day, they're the best starcraft 2 players, and they're the ones everyone wants to watch. That being said, the simple fact is.. NASL will not make as much money/fewer people will actually watch the stream now that koreans are no longer participating in their league.
NASL should listen to this, and fix their league accordingly, instead of blaming everything on the koreans. You wanna make money NASL? Get the koreans back into your league, because now that koreans aren't even participating, I know for damn certain i'm not going to be watching NASL this season.
I think the problem people are running into is this:
- NASL does have legitimate things they need to address
- You don't run your business well if you aren't responsive to concerns, you won't last long
- The Korean teams *signed* contracts THEN backed out after attempting to force a renegotiation, which NASL was willing to do within their budget
The Koreans, understanding their value to the league, decided to push the issue of renegotiation after signing the contracts. NASL actually was willing to accommodate them really far, but they kept expecting more and pushing harder. They didn't expect NASL to hold the line at a specific spot (especially since they'd already started filming). They did, so NASL simply announced why they were going to have to push back the start of Season 2.
It seems for a lot of the Koreans, the default mode of negotiating is to go for brinkmanship. That's not a good thing in an expanding market. In a closed or declining market, it's useful, but the more the market expands, the more you'll get left behind doing that.
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On August 17 2011 15:23 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:20 epik640x wrote:On August 17 2011 15:11 D0N32 wrote:
Sounds like these Korean teams expect a lot. Those are some pretty lofty demands, especially "fix the poor operation." It sounds like the Korean teams didn't cut the NASL as much slack as the community did for it being their first event, (which wasn't much) and they expect over the top accommodations. These demands sound a little pricey, especially considering it's not a tournament by invitation. They chose to compete based on the conditions that were presented, and pulling out at the last second was very bad business of them. Citing issues that the NASL had does not cover up for the Korean team's mistake. Read the article. The season 2 qualifiers were before the grand finals event. "Waiting until the last moment to pull out" is NASL spin. Deceitful amateurs running NASL, like Xeris. Wrong. The S2 qualifiers were before the finals, that part is right. But the signing of the contracts was AFTER, WAY AFTER the finals were over. And then it was like a week and half after that when they pulled out, once S2 had already started filming. So yeah it was waiting till the last moment.
Did you say WAY AFTER?
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On August 17 2011 15:21 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:06 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 13:02 sirkyex wrote:
I foresee a contradiction. NASL had a problem with walkovers and people not showing up for matches on time in the league so they raised the deposits so its more of a penalty for flaking out. Koreans want them to eliminate deposit and make sure people show up on time for matches.... suggestions? Problem is not that people don't show up on time. It's that when they don't, people who did show up on time (koreans) had to wait. Europeans have the same problem, yet i don't see bitching / teams withdrawing.
White-Ra paid his ticket out of pocket and did not demand anything. That's why I consider him to be a real professional.
Same with Boxer, who looked at the contract, stated simply that it was not for him, and withdrew in a timely manner, making his separation from NASL on a positive note. That's why he too is someone I consider a professional.
Everybody else? I see no professionals. The way they treated negotiations, the way they weigh contracts...it's horrible.
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I really don't give a shit anymore this is a turning he said she said argument anyway. It was unprofessional for the NASL to post without having all the facts straight, but it was also unprofessional for the korean teams to back out of contracts.
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EPT
