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United States7483 Posts
On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball  Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here.
You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels.
Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it.
And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran.
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You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels.
Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it.
And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran.
You defly on some Shrooms giving you hallucinations or something LOL This is the lategame discussion..... Ghost vs Templars and he is saying ghosts beat temps which player capabilty aside Templars win LOL Templars microed at 100% vs Ghosts Microed 100% Templars win now with Cloak 2 storms win but you can Spread but the fact is the utility you get out of such a Cheap unit is INSANE thats the whole discussion.... Ghosts either need to be a little cheaper or have a little more utility.... NOT BOTH thats all i'm saying and considering a MSC Cost vs Effectiveness and Ease of use is like off the charts i don't think that is a tall order to fill here....
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On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran.
That's the thing though. Even with 2 ghosts sniping simultaneously there is a chance (small though) that the high templar fires his feedback faster than both ghost snipes. Enter a unit test map and try it out, I just did and it happens.
I don't think it matters much in actual gameplay, but it just proves than Ghosts vs Templars is hardly a faceroll for Terran (which I swear seems to be what some Protoss in this thread think), and I would argue that it's much more important for Terran to neuter all the templars than it is for Protoss to neuter all the ghosts.
Add to that all the other shit that Terran has to do and Protoss doesn't (Terran has to kite, and if possible queue target fires of vikings on colossus), and it's indeed quite the asymmetrical micro requirements. You may dismiss that complaint as "user error" related, but Terran pros do actually mess up more easily than Protoss pros and it's not reasonable to expect the game to be balanced under the assumption that two Automaton 2000 are playing each other.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 03 2014 04:54 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. That's the thing though. Even with 2 ghosts sniping simultaneously there is a chance (small though) that the high templar fires his feedback faster than both ghost snipes. Enter a unit test map and try it out, I just did and it happens. I don't think it matters much in actual gameplay, but it just proves than Ghosts vs Templars is hardly a faceroll for Terran (which I swear seems to be what some Protoss in this thread think), and I would argue that it's much more important for Terran to neuter all the templars than it is for Protoss to neuter all the ghosts. Add to that all the other shit that Terran has to do and Protoss doesn't (Terran has to kite, and if possible queue target fires of vikings on colossus), and it's indeed quite the asymmetrical micro requirements. You may dismiss that complaint as "user error" related, but Terran pros do actually mess up more easily than Protoss pros and it's not reasonable to expect the game to be balanced under the assumption that two Automaton 2000 are playing each other.
There's no expectation of the automaton doing the micro. The expectation is that balance is based around the highest level that pros can achieve, because otherwise the highly skilled pro who is playing the OP race will never lose ever. Top korean players are more than capable of handling the micro requirements, therefore they aren't relevant to a balance discussion. Complaints about protoss being easier to play does not actually say anything about game balance.
And no, ghost vs. high templar isn't face roll, but it isn't nearly as bad as many terran players seem to think it is. If you micro properly as the terran, that battle will favor you. The issues in the matchup have nothing to do with ghost vs. templar. And frankly, top korean terrans are still winning, and aligulac stats show the matchup only being very slightly in toss favor overall.
The major issue in TvP are terran having no lategame transition to respond to the tech of protoss, they still have their core of MMM + a couple specialist units to kill protoss tech. That's a balance issue, because it means that games that get to the late game will usually go in favor of toss. The build options being limited for terran where they are less limited for protoss isn't a balance issue, it's a design issue.
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On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran.
So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are.
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On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are.
If it were easy to snipe observers then Protoss would have literally no way of facing mass cloaked ghost/viking, so it kinda has to be tough. I've already seen this ghost/viking style on pro streams, usually the Terran sacrifices a few vikings but if they get the observer Protoss has to do a full retreat or die to ghosts. It is obscenely strong in the right hands.
As he said, we can't balance the game around people who aren't pros or else it will completely break the game at the pro level. This discussion has been had many times and it always ends with the same conclusion. If they want to make Terran more non-pro friendly, they are going to do a complete overhaul of it because any modifications to make it stronger with how it is now will simply bring back GomTvT at the pro level. It sucks but there isn't much that they can do about it right now. We just have to hope they smarten up a bit for Legacy of the Void and do some actual changes rather than try and add stuff without touching current units like they did for HOTS.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are.
Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy.
You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either.
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On January 03 2014 06:40 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either.
HTs are still better than ghosts, whatever you might say against it.
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If it were easy to snipe observers then Protoss would have literally no way of facing mass cloaked ghost/viking, so it kinda has to be tough. I've already seen this ghost/viking style on pro streams, usually the Terran sacrifices a few vikings but if they get the observer Protoss has to do a full retreat or die to ghosts. It is obscenely strong in the right hands.
As he said, we can't balance the game around people who aren't pros or else it will completely break the game at the pro level. This discussion has been had many times and it always ends with the same conclusion. If they want to make Terran more non-pro friendly, they are going to do a complete overhaul of it because any modifications to make it stronger with how it is now will simply bring back GomTvT at the pro level. It sucks but there isn't much that they can do about it right now. We just have to hope they smarten up a bit for Legacy of the Void and do some actual changes rather than try and add stuff without touching current units like they did for HOTS.
You are a really nice Fella and I appreciate that
That is kinda the Point that is being brought out though.... Protoss is Non-Pro Friendly which is why Protoss is rarely seen with a Giant W in major tournaments..... atleast it has in past years.... Terran is extremely pro friendly and not NON-Pro Friendly which is why Alot of tourneys are won by Terran and I can't commentate on Zerg they've had their ups and downs lol. The point that every terran is trying to make is exactly the thing Protoss players don't want for Terran hahahaha Honestly I like how terran is built and I think protoss has a lot of like OOOOOOOhhhhhh AHHHHHHSSS behind their design and not enough Pro level control that makes them plateau so hard in Higher leagues to the point where GM is pretty much 50% protoss across all regions....
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On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:
So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius?
On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:
Your level of ignorance astounds me..
Go take a break from TL for a half hour or so. Do something that makes you happy. Then come back and try to be a little more civil about it. I play Terran and have been frustrated with ghost vs. HT for a very long time, but you're not doing anyone any favors by raging this much about it.
On January 03 2014 03:52 Code wrote:
I always thought the Ghost should move a lot faster than it does. Its supposed to be a lightly armoured "assasin" type unit compared to the Marine or Marauder in their big power suits...yet they move the same speed until they inject their magic drugs and run 100 mph faster.
I would leave the Ghosts' abilities the same and see if giving them a speed boost would help them juke or "dance" a bit better. They could dodge storms easier, cloak would be a lot more powerful, stutter stepping would be a bit stronger, but they would still have the lag-time before snipe so with good control from toss they could still be feedbacked.
Nothing crazy, say Dark Templar speed 2.8 or 2.9 or whatever it is.
Thoughts?
This is one of the more interesting ideas I've read in this thread in a very long time. Considering the designated balance discussion thread is usually full of the stupidest crap suggestions (my favorite I ever read was that marines should do 5 +1 to light instead of 6 because they're too good against zerglings), this is something that would freshen up gameplay and almost certainly not break anything. There's no way TvZ or TvT becomes stupid because of a ghost buff, and TvP probably has some room to buff Terran before Protoss has reason to complain. And it gives a really cool unit that lost most if its utility to nerfs a bit of utility again. Nuke harass is pretty cool, and pretty plainly not anywhere close to imbalanced, so a buff would make an interesting style more viable without breaking anything.
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On January 03 2014 05:03 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 04:54 ZenithM wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. That's the thing though. Even with 2 ghosts sniping simultaneously there is a chance (small though) that the high templar fires his feedback faster than both ghost snipes. Enter a unit test map and try it out, I just did and it happens. I don't think it matters much in actual gameplay, but it just proves than Ghosts vs Templars is hardly a faceroll for Terran (which I swear seems to be what some Protoss in this thread think), and I would argue that it's much more important for Terran to neuter all the templars than it is for Protoss to neuter all the ghosts. Add to that all the other shit that Terran has to do and Protoss doesn't (Terran has to kite, and if possible queue target fires of vikings on colossus), and it's indeed quite the asymmetrical micro requirements. You may dismiss that complaint as "user error" related, but Terran pros do actually mess up more easily than Protoss pros and it's not reasonable to expect the game to be balanced under the assumption that two Automaton 2000 are playing each other. There's no expectation of the automaton doing the micro. The expectation is that balance is based around the highest level that pros can achieve, because otherwise the highly skilled pro who is playing the OP race will never lose ever. Top korean players are more than capable of handling the micro requirements, therefore they aren't relevant to a balance discussion. Complaints about protoss being easier to play does not actually say anything about game balance. And no, ghost vs. high templar isn't face roll, but it isn't nearly as bad as many terran players seem to think it is. If you micro properly as the terran, that battle will favor you. The issues in the matchup have nothing to do with ghost vs. templar. And frankly, top korean terrans are still winning, and aligulac stats show the matchup only being very slightly in toss favor overall. The major issue in TvP are terran having no lategame transition to respond to the tech of protoss, they still have their core of MMM + a couple specialist units to kill protoss tech. That's a balance issue, because it means that games that get to the late game will usually go in favor of toss. The build options being limited for terran where they are less limited for protoss isn't a balance issue, it's a design issue.
Our lategame transition is actually ghosts, so there are ways you can make them part of the issue. We could argue that if ghosts were stronger, the lategame transition which you say yourself is missing could be strong.
And if ghosts are stronger, they're probably also easier to use. It's not easy to separate balance and design.
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On January 03 2014 06:40 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either.
Lol people like Taeja is a god even among pros, so no, the game should not be balanced around him. Like I said earlier, Demuslim and Select were talking on Demu's stream about how they cannot even copy some of the builds that he does because he is simply so much better than them. You seem to be neglecting the fact that there is an unbalancable human factor at the very top of the pyramid. Just because Taeja beats everyone else doesnt necessarily mean that the race is imba, it could just mean that he is the best player in the world and deserves to win. Someone has to be the best, and in a case like that it just happens to be a Terran. Look at bw..Flash was clearly the most dominant player at the end, but it wasnt because T was imbalanced, it was because he was just the best. I can play this game til the day I die, and I will never have the natural ability that players like Taeja and Maru have; thats just the way it is. But when only people like Taeja and Maru can achieve a 50% win rate, that should scream problem to an intelligent person. If the best players currently playing our race only win every other game, what chance do the rest of us have?
So yes the problem is the race. And btw, another glaringly obvious fact that you seem to just omit from your thought process is the fact that I'm not facing gm pros on ladder. The people in my league are suppose to be just as bad (compared to pros) at handling their race as I am at mine. According to your broken logic though, I have to play like Taeja, while the low level Toss I'm facing can play like low level Toss and win. Should not the lack of skill on both our parts cancel out, and we play an even game? Obviously one only has to look at race distribution and ladder statistics to know that this isnt the case. So its not my lack of skill as a player, because my opponents should be dealing with the same problem. However, while I'm rocking an 85% win rate vs T, and 56% vs Z, I have an abysmal 22% vs P (and almost twice as many games vs them as vs T). That kind of math just doesnt add up.. And lmao its hardly just me or other non-master/gm players complaining about the MU. Pros are speaking out about it too man. Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right?
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On January 03 2014 06:59 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:
So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:
Your level of ignorance astounds me.. Go take a break from TL for a half hour or so. Do something that makes you happy. Then come back and try to be a little more civil about it. I play Terran and have been frustrated with ghost vs. HT for a very long time, but you're not doing anyone any favors by raging this much about it. Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 03:52 Code wrote:
I always thought the Ghost should move a lot faster than it does. Its supposed to be a lightly armoured "assasin" type unit compared to the Marine or Marauder in their big power suits...yet they move the same speed until they inject their magic drugs and run 100 mph faster.
I would leave the Ghosts' abilities the same and see if giving them a speed boost would help them juke or "dance" a bit better. They could dodge storms easier, cloak would be a lot more powerful, stutter stepping would be a bit stronger, but they would still have the lag-time before snipe so with good control from toss they could still be feedbacked.
Nothing crazy, say Dark Templar speed 2.8 or 2.9 or whatever it is.
Thoughts?
...You can read right? You can see that there were hours between those posts right? And is it raging if its true? I was only calling out bullshit when I saw it..no rage involved 
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On January 03 2014 06:33 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. If it were easy to snipe observers then Protoss would have literally no way of facing mass cloaked ghost/viking, so it kinda has to be tough. I've already seen this ghost/viking style on pro streams, usually the Terran sacrifices a few vikings but if they get the observer Protoss has to do a full retreat or die to ghosts. It is obscenely strong in the right hands. As he said, we can't balance the game around people who aren't pros or else it will completely break the game at the pro level. This discussion has been had many times and it always ends with the same conclusion. If they want to make Terran more non-pro friendly, they are going to do a complete overhaul of it because any modifications to make it stronger with how it is now will simply bring back GomTvT at the pro level. It sucks but there isn't much that they can do about it right now. We just have to hope they smarten up a bit for Legacy of the Void and do some actual changes rather than try and add stuff without touching current units like they did for HOTS.
Well yeah, mass ghost viking is the ideal end game composition for Terran TvP, but its just so expensive and takes so long to build that its hard to ever get there safely. There was a really good/long game between HerO and someone (Polt maybe?) on Daybreak back in WOL that showed how strong viking ghost is. Achieving it is just virtually impossible, especially in HOTS.
And again I dont want the game balanced around non-pros; I never said that. I just don't want it balanced around the very, very best pros that Terran has to offer. Taeja should handily beat nearly every Toss player on the planet with the exception of going relatively even with the top two or three Toss players in the world. He should not be going .500 with average Koreans though because he himself is not average.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 03 2014 07:26 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 06:40 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either. Lol people like Taeja is a god even among pros, so no, the game should not be balanced around him. Like I said earlier, Demuslim and Select were talking on Demu's stream about how they cannot even copy some of the builds that he does because he is simply so much better than them. You seem to be neglecting the fact that there is an unbalancable human factor at the very top of the pyramid. Just because Taeja beats everyone else doesnt necessarily mean that the race is imba, it could just mean that he is the best player in the world and deserves to win. Someone has to be the best, and in a case like that it just happens to be a Terran. Look at bw..Flash was clearly the most dominant player at the end, but it wasnt because T was imbalanced, it was because he was just the best. I can play this game til the day I die, and I will never have the natural ability that players like Taeja and Maru have; thats just the way it is. But when only people like Taeja and Maru can achieve a 50% win rate, that should scream problem to an intelligent person. If the best players currently playing our race only win every other game, what chance do the rest of us have? So yes the problem is the race. And btw, another glaringly obvious fact that you seem to just omit from your thought process is the fact that I'm not facing gm pros on ladder. The people in my league are suppose to be just as bad (compared to pros) at handling their race as I am at mine. According to your broken logic though, I have to play like Taeja, while the low level Toss I'm facing can play like low level Toss and win. Should not the lack of skill on both our parts cancel out, and we play an even game? Obviously one only has to look at race distribution and ladder statistics to know that this isnt the case. So its not my lack of skill as a player, because my opponents should be dealing with the same problem. However, while I'm rocking an 85% win rate vs T, and 56% vs Z, I have an abysmal 22% vs P (and almost twice as many games vs them as vs T). That kind of math just doesnt add up.. And lmao its hardly just me or other non-master/gm players complaining about the MU. Pros are speaking out about it too man. Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right?
You keep missing the point entirely: you do not balance around anything lower than the best players in the world, or you ruin the game as an ESPORT. We both suck at this game, fine. We don't balance around us, because then the pros would be playing a completely imbalanced game. At the end of the day, you or I can learn to play better. We could make fewer or less costly mistakes, we could make better decisions, we could employ a better build. You simply do not balance against anything but the pros.
And again, argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, stop using it. Take a chill pill. According to what statistics we have currently, PvT is about 1-2% protoss favored at the moment. If your win rate is 22%, the problem is you: not your race. Jaedong also had a really long ass time where his ZvP was absurdly awful, and he lost almost every game he played. He didn't bitch about Protoss being overpowered, he practiced his ass off and learned the matchup, and now he's crushing protosses left and right. Your attitude is what's getting in the way of you getting better. Chill out.
On January 03 2014 07:37 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 06:33 Ben... wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. If it were easy to snipe observers then Protoss would have literally no way of facing mass cloaked ghost/viking, so it kinda has to be tough. I've already seen this ghost/viking style on pro streams, usually the Terran sacrifices a few vikings but if they get the observer Protoss has to do a full retreat or die to ghosts. It is obscenely strong in the right hands. As he said, we can't balance the game around people who aren't pros or else it will completely break the game at the pro level. This discussion has been had many times and it always ends with the same conclusion. If they want to make Terran more non-pro friendly, they are going to do a complete overhaul of it because any modifications to make it stronger with how it is now will simply bring back GomTvT at the pro level. It sucks but there isn't much that they can do about it right now. We just have to hope they smarten up a bit for Legacy of the Void and do some actual changes rather than try and add stuff without touching current units like they did for HOTS. Well yeah, mass ghost viking is the ideal end game composition for Terran TvP, but its just so expensive and takes so long to build that its hard to ever get there safely. There was a really good/long game between HerO and someone (Polt maybe?) on Daybreak back in WOL that showed how strong viking ghost is. Achieving it is just virtually impossible, especially in HOTS. And again I dont want the game balanced around non-pros; I never said that. I just don't want it balanced around the very, very best pros that Terran has to offer. Taeja should handily beat nearly every Toss player on the planet with the exception of going relatively even with the top two or three Toss players in the world. He should not be going .500 with average Koreans though because he himself is not average.
There are numerous players out there that are better than Taeja, I specifically chose Taeja as an example before because he isn't the best terran in the world. Taeja is freaking spectacular, but there's a reason he isn't winning GSL's like Maru or Innovation.
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On January 03 2014 08:22 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 07:26 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:40 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either. Lol people like Taeja is a god even among pros, so no, the game should not be balanced around him. Like I said earlier, Demuslim and Select were talking on Demu's stream about how they cannot even copy some of the builds that he does because he is simply so much better than them. You seem to be neglecting the fact that there is an unbalancable human factor at the very top of the pyramid. Just because Taeja beats everyone else doesnt necessarily mean that the race is imba, it could just mean that he is the best player in the world and deserves to win. Someone has to be the best, and in a case like that it just happens to be a Terran. Look at bw..Flash was clearly the most dominant player at the end, but it wasnt because T was imbalanced, it was because he was just the best. I can play this game til the day I die, and I will never have the natural ability that players like Taeja and Maru have; thats just the way it is. But when only people like Taeja and Maru can achieve a 50% win rate, that should scream problem to an intelligent person. If the best players currently playing our race only win every other game, what chance do the rest of us have? So yes the problem is the race. And btw, another glaringly obvious fact that you seem to just omit from your thought process is the fact that I'm not facing gm pros on ladder. The people in my league are suppose to be just as bad (compared to pros) at handling their race as I am at mine. According to your broken logic though, I have to play like Taeja, while the low level Toss I'm facing can play like low level Toss and win. Should not the lack of skill on both our parts cancel out, and we play an even game? Obviously one only has to look at race distribution and ladder statistics to know that this isnt the case. So its not my lack of skill as a player, because my opponents should be dealing with the same problem. However, while I'm rocking an 85% win rate vs T, and 56% vs Z, I have an abysmal 22% vs P (and almost twice as many games vs them as vs T). That kind of math just doesnt add up.. And lmao its hardly just me or other non-master/gm players complaining about the MU. Pros are speaking out about it too man. Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? You keep missing the point entirely: you do not balance around anything lower than the best players in the world, or you ruin the game as an ESPORT. We both suck at this game, fine. We don't balance around us, because then the pros would be playing a completely imbalanced game. At the end of the day, you or I can learn to play better. We could make fewer or less costly mistakes, we could make better decisions, we could employ a better build. You simply do not balance against anything but the pros. And again, argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, stop using it. Take a chill pill.
Blizzard doesn't balance around the best players, they balance around winrates, that is a big difference though.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 03 2014 08:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 08:22 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 07:26 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:40 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:How is that the case when ghosts outrange high templar?
But sure, ghosts probably aren't that great if you're not actually casting spells with them and using them as effectively as possible... when I accidentally run my spellcasters into my opponent's army, I lose games too. Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either. Lol people like Taeja is a god even among pros, so no, the game should not be balanced around him. Like I said earlier, Demuslim and Select were talking on Demu's stream about how they cannot even copy some of the builds that he does because he is simply so much better than them. You seem to be neglecting the fact that there is an unbalancable human factor at the very top of the pyramid. Just because Taeja beats everyone else doesnt necessarily mean that the race is imba, it could just mean that he is the best player in the world and deserves to win. Someone has to be the best, and in a case like that it just happens to be a Terran. Look at bw..Flash was clearly the most dominant player at the end, but it wasnt because T was imbalanced, it was because he was just the best. I can play this game til the day I die, and I will never have the natural ability that players like Taeja and Maru have; thats just the way it is. But when only people like Taeja and Maru can achieve a 50% win rate, that should scream problem to an intelligent person. If the best players currently playing our race only win every other game, what chance do the rest of us have? So yes the problem is the race. And btw, another glaringly obvious fact that you seem to just omit from your thought process is the fact that I'm not facing gm pros on ladder. The people in my league are suppose to be just as bad (compared to pros) at handling their race as I am at mine. According to your broken logic though, I have to play like Taeja, while the low level Toss I'm facing can play like low level Toss and win. Should not the lack of skill on both our parts cancel out, and we play an even game? Obviously one only has to look at race distribution and ladder statistics to know that this isnt the case. So its not my lack of skill as a player, because my opponents should be dealing with the same problem. However, while I'm rocking an 85% win rate vs T, and 56% vs Z, I have an abysmal 22% vs P (and almost twice as many games vs them as vs T). That kind of math just doesnt add up.. And lmao its hardly just me or other non-master/gm players complaining about the MU. Pros are speaking out about it too man. Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? You keep missing the point entirely: you do not balance around anything lower than the best players in the world, or you ruin the game as an ESPORT. We both suck at this game, fine. We don't balance around us, because then the pros would be playing a completely imbalanced game. At the end of the day, you or I can learn to play better. We could make fewer or less costly mistakes, we could make better decisions, we could employ a better build. You simply do not balance against anything but the pros. And again, argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, stop using it. Take a chill pill. Blizzard doesn't balance around the best players, they balance around winrates, that is a big difference though.
We don't know that, we don't know what winrates they are referring to when they say what winrates are. They aren't very transparent when they talk about winrates. We don't know what their data looks like: all we can know is what aligulac and similar resources show us: that TvP is currently the most balanced of the 3 non-mirror matchups.
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At this point, I'm not sure Blizzard even knows what mech is.
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On January 03 2014 08:28 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 08:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 03 2014 08:22 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 07:26 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 06:40 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 06:07 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 04:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 03 2014 03:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 03 2014 02:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 03 2014 02:29 Pirfiktshon wrote:[quote] Well when you start playing higher up games its not about that... Its about the "Juke" my friend. If you aren't familiar with this it goes a little like this..... Ghost winds up for the Pitch Templar Backs Up for the Juke Then FBs on ghosts so the Ghosts Rewinds up for the Pitch and then is batted before he can even throw the ball Pretty much the Only safe 100% way to kill a Temp is To Emp out of range i think its a total of 3 times before they have no energy then snipe LOL ...what? Obviously you should be paying attention to your spellcasters when you send them off to cast a spell... do you just chase high templar back into Protoss armies or something, and then wonder why your ghost got killed? Pretty sure a ghost can "juke" far better than a high templar can, considering the ghost is faster, invisible, and has longer range. Your level of ignorance astounds me.. First of all lets not pretend like obs dont virtually render cloak useless, so you can stop saying that now. Secondly, snipe is only one range outside of fb, and it takes time for the spell to cast, whereas fb can instantly cast (meaning a ht can just take the first snipe on the chin and keep moving in range to fb). And if Toss doesnt want ot take a snipe, the juke occurs when the ht backs out of snipe range and stops, and just as the ghost tries to close the distance to 10 again the ht turns around and the range is effectively closed to 9 (both units moved closer by 1)..bam dead ghost. Third of all, as a Terran if you're spending too much time on microing your spell casters, there is always the threat that Toss will just deathball amove onto you, so you have to make sure your bio and vikings are being microed simultaneously with the ghosts. Its no secret that Toss' lategame army is favored over Terran's, its been that way for a very long time..idk what your trying to argue here. You can scan and kill obs, happens all the time. If you have 2 ghosts snipe a HT from outside the HT's range, the HT will always die before getting feedback off. If you use one ghost to snipe twice, what happens depends on energy levels. Complaints about too much time micro'ing is just a user error complaint: you don't balance around player capability. Pros can do it. And you do know what he's trying to argue: his argument is that ghost vs. high templar favors the ghost. And it does. His argument was not that Protoss lategame vs. terran lategame favors terran. So many things wrong with what you said. First of all there obs sight is 2 longer than viking range, so just sniping obs is hardly a walk in the park. Second of all, what happens when the Toss sends out two ht vs your 2 ghosts genius? And energy levels dont matter in a 1v1..as soon as fb goes off the second snipe wont be coming regardless of whether or not the ghost dies, and then the ht is still alive and probably has enough energy for storm. Third of all, looking at ht vs ghosts in a vacuum and not relating it to the rest of the late game is the definition of an exercise in futility..the game is not ht vs ghosts and so what is happening with everything else directly effects the level of micro than can be invested in controlling spellcasters. Micro is a resource just like anything else, just because you dont mine it doesnt mean there is no strategical thinking as to how to spend it..and even pros dont do it well anyways. Not everyone is Taeja man; just because his ghost micro is good sometimes doesnt mean its realistic to balance the MU around that. And finally, I would think all these posts by others saying that ht are favored might just mean that youre wrong, and that they actually are. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. You balance around the highest level of play: to do anything else kills the game as an ESPORT. If Taeja can do it, your goal should be to learn how to do it like Taeja does, not complain enough until it gets easier so that Taeja's performance is no longer impressive. If Taeja can do it, the problem isn't the race, it's your skill as a player. And that's okay. I don't play as well as Parting or Rain does either. Lol people like Taeja is a god even among pros, so no, the game should not be balanced around him. Like I said earlier, Demuslim and Select were talking on Demu's stream about how they cannot even copy some of the builds that he does because he is simply so much better than them. You seem to be neglecting the fact that there is an unbalancable human factor at the very top of the pyramid. Just because Taeja beats everyone else doesnt necessarily mean that the race is imba, it could just mean that he is the best player in the world and deserves to win. Someone has to be the best, and in a case like that it just happens to be a Terran. Look at bw..Flash was clearly the most dominant player at the end, but it wasnt because T was imbalanced, it was because he was just the best. I can play this game til the day I die, and I will never have the natural ability that players like Taeja and Maru have; thats just the way it is. But when only people like Taeja and Maru can achieve a 50% win rate, that should scream problem to an intelligent person. If the best players currently playing our race only win every other game, what chance do the rest of us have? So yes the problem is the race. And btw, another glaringly obvious fact that you seem to just omit from your thought process is the fact that I'm not facing gm pros on ladder. The people in my league are suppose to be just as bad (compared to pros) at handling their race as I am at mine. According to your broken logic though, I have to play like Taeja, while the low level Toss I'm facing can play like low level Toss and win. Should not the lack of skill on both our parts cancel out, and we play an even game? Obviously one only has to look at race distribution and ladder statistics to know that this isnt the case. So its not my lack of skill as a player, because my opponents should be dealing with the same problem. However, while I'm rocking an 85% win rate vs T, and 56% vs Z, I have an abysmal 22% vs P (and almost twice as many games vs them as vs T). That kind of math just doesnt add up.. And lmao its hardly just me or other non-master/gm players complaining about the MU. Pros are speaking out about it too man. Though I guess it could just be everyone else and not you whos wrong, right? You keep missing the point entirely: you do not balance around anything lower than the best players in the world, or you ruin the game as an ESPORT. We both suck at this game, fine. We don't balance around us, because then the pros would be playing a completely imbalanced game. At the end of the day, you or I can learn to play better. We could make fewer or less costly mistakes, we could make better decisions, we could employ a better build. You simply do not balance against anything but the pros. And again, argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, stop using it. Take a chill pill. Blizzard doesn't balance around the best players, they balance around winrates, that is a big difference though. We don't know that, we don't know what winrates they are referring to when they say what winrates are. They aren't very transparent when they talk about winrates. We don't know what their data looks like: all we can know is what aligulac and similar resources show us: that TvP is currently the most balanced of the 3 non-mirror matchups.
Hey, maybe they started balancing the game around a more evenly racial distribution in higher leagues, maybe even at pro level considering the huge lack of terran even at this level.
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EPT
