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nottapro
202 Posts
Protoss really doesn't need a nerf in my opinion, terran needs aoe for bio. I would give ghosts a slightly weaker and more telegraphed spell like storm, which would create a synergy / balance between infestors / high templar / ghosts. Id probably remove nukes from the game, so ghosts aren't op. It would cost mana and require an upgrade to get and the armory. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
Edit:BTW tahts for 50 Mins and 150 Gas Not to mention Ghosts are so close to cost to Colo it isn't funny and the utilty is simply a Deterrent to stop Templars from Owning your army with 2 storms...... | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Its a simple fix that doesn't affect other match-ups and also helps ghostmech styles tremendously. It also doesn't alter the mass ghost scenario that much because those were going to EMP everything protoss had anyway. | ||
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nottapro
202 Posts
On January 03 2014 00:47 Bagi wrote: I'm still of the opinion that EMP should be unnerfed. The reason you don't see ghosts is because how bad they are in small numbers, you really need a huge number of them to start EMPing the main army and good protoss players don't let terrans get there on even terms. Lategame TvP has been a joke for enough time that its obvious that the issue wont fix itself. Its a simple fix that doesn't affect other match-ups and also helps ghostmech styles tremendously. It also doesn't alter the mass ghost scenario that much because those were going to EMP everything protoss had anyway. I'd be down with that. Larger EMP radius, make it an upgrade. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On January 03 2014 01:12 ZenithM wrote: Larger EMP radius, or remove all energy (and not just 100)? Oh right it has been nerfed multiple times. I mean larger radius though, so that ghosts can be used more effectively against the main protoss army without having 15 of them. Snipe is a strong enough tool against casters. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
 but thats a halo dream that wpuld never come true haha (the shotgun blast would take up 25 eng the same hehe) | ||
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
On January 03 2014 01:30 Pirfiktshon wrote: I think a cooler idea would be a shotty snipes for ghosts like close range aoe that only really does damage to infantry and still keep the snipe but thats a halo dream that wpuld never come true haha (the shotgun blast would take up 25 eng the same hehe)Id rather have something useful instead. Like a good EMP then maybe korean terrans would start using them more again! | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
IDK if I like that idea so much tbh. I don't think Ghosts are the problem, maybe their price, but not their effectiveness | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On January 02 2014 20:53 TheDwf wrote: Pure nonsense. There was nothing in WoL 2012-13 PvT like "your fifth and sixth Marines are a bit late, you auto-lose". Comparing how brutally unforgiving HotS TvP is with WoL PvT or HotS PvZ is really ridiculous. Lol. 8-8-8 has zero impact on Zerg or Protoss builds, and minimal consequences on Terran ones as CC first is already in jeopardy vs other proxies. SCVs pulls have nothing to do with "killing the old 1 Colossus into Storm builds," they're actually awful against such a build... Damage the game with a dumb unnecessary patch, then declare "time is needed". Sounds oddly familiar. Of course there is stuff like that. In PvZ, if I'm doing a gate expand and my opponent does a ling rush, and I skipped my first zealot to get an earlier nexus, or delayed it until I scouted, bam, I can lose from that. If he's doing a burrowed roach rush build, and I did a gate expand and my robo is late, bam I lose. There are times in the game where you have to have something out by or you risk losing to specific things your opponent can do. Whether it be 5 marines by X time or an observer by Y time, you have requirements, and your builds have to meet them. Complaining about that is just silly. Hell, in PvP if you don't have a sentry out by 6:30 and you haven't been spamming chrono on your warp gate, an old fashioned 4 gate will usually just kill you. In WoL, there was stuff like proxy 2 rax killing you outright if you skipped your first zealot. Whoops, your zealot was late, you lose. Builds can be greedy. You might not think they're greedy, but if they outright die to a build your opponent might do, they're greedy. If your build can easily handle what your opponent did, then you deserved to lose because you botched the execution. That's all there is to it. This complaint about "oh noes, my opponent did a rush and I didn't quite have enough units out immediately so I lost, this is unfair" is just silly. And the scv pulls are quite effective vs. the colossus into storm builds, as long as you make sure to hit the timing before storm finishes. I lost track of how many PvT losses were suffered in the GSL from scv losses hitting at the right timing when they were trying to do that build, and Protoss players just stopped doing it entirely. We started to see a lot more 5 colossus builds or just plain templar first builds because of it. | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On January 03 2014 01:45 ffadicted wrote: Can't really increase radius on EMP imo, a range increase big enough to be meaningful will mean a good terran can easily abuse range + radius to win every single feedback/EMP battle. IDK if I like that idea so much tbh. I don't think Ghosts are the problem, maybe their price, but not their effectiveness Nobody used EMP for that purpose when it had larger radius. I'm not at all shocked that protoss players are against changes that could result in meaningful buffs for terran though. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 03 2014 00:19 Big J wrote: Sorry, didn't see the answer until now... It's not just the hardended shields, there it is most prevalent because it is good against Tank, Thor, Hellbat and Seeker Missile. Hardened Shields has no effect on Seeker Missile since it's a spell. And it's not just Hardened Shields indeed, it's Hardened Shields and the massive damage output of Immortals vs Armored targets. But there is far more to that, Mech struggles with every high HP unit to a good degree, because of the burst/splash mechanics of their units keeping dps low. It's extremly visible with Archons, Zealots and Ultras (especially on creep) as well, that Mech has trouble with everything that survives the first few shots. Thor dps is good. Apart from that it's 14dps for a single tank (~2marines), 9-15dps for a hellbat (~1-1.5 stimmed marines), 3-7dps for a hellion (0.5-1 marine). Apart from the Thor, all the units are not built to combat long, which is a weakness of Mech. And still the units you mention are not the biggest problems mech faces. Thors are good against all three of them, for instance. Even unsieged Tanks are decent/good against ultras as long as you have enough of them. The sturdiness of Zealots/Archons is only problematic because behind them usually lies a line of units laying waste to all Armored units in a matter of seconds. Ultralisks are mostly problematic when Vipers are on the field, otherwise mech can handle them. Mech cannot deal with anything being strong vs tanks. Well, mech is based around the Tank, so of course the style will have troubles when its core unit is in difficulty. That's a bit tautological. Again, who is to blame? The race that has options against tanks, or the Terran techtree that falls apart the moment the opponent uses those options? As I said earlier, SC2 mech has flaws: Hellions/Hellbats are too unidimensional, Mines are sadly often too impractical to use because of their supply cost and the fact they're a second unit with a "transformation" time before shooting, Tanks don't deal enough damage (Siege in particular isn't rewarded enough in some scenarii; against some compositions, you're even punished for being sieged), Thors are a failure on several plans, Vikings in their ground form are kind of meh for their cost. But. Despite all those weaknesses, it could decently work if some of the adverse options are toned down. The problem is not that those options exist, it's how extreme some of them are. The Viper, for instance—was there any need to have Blinding Cloud entirely disable Tanks? For the Immortal, was it needed to have extreme resistance and extreme damage? On December 05 2013 23:07 TheDwf wrote: Why not directly change Hardened Shields? Instead of the current functioning [reduces all damage inflicted on the shields that is greater than 10 to 10], change to: - Attacks dealing from 10 to 20 damage are still reduced to 10. - Attacks dealing more than 20 damage are halved instead of reduced to 10. The impact in PvT and PvZ would be (assuming 0 shield upgrade for Immortals): - Marauder: damage would be 10-13 instead of 10. Minor. - Hellbat: damage would be 10-12 instead of 10. Minor. - Unsieged Tanks: damage would be 12.5 - 17 instead of 10. - Sieged Tanks: damage would be 25 - 32.5 instead of 10. - Thors: damage would be 15x2 - 19.5-x2 instead of 10x2. - Baneling: damage would be 10-13 instead of 10. Minor. - Roach: damage would be 10-11 instead of 10. Minor. - Ultralisks: damage would be 17.5 - 22 instead of 10. - Brood lords: damage would be 10-13 instead of 10. Minor. Without even tweaking mech itself, I am convinced this change would do more than what Blizzard has done so far for mech TvP. Suddenly you could focus Immortals beyond the Zealots/Archon walls without instantly wasting 80-85% (!) of your damage potential. You could have a chance to fight without Ghosts or lots of Banshees, which means you would not be forced to turtle for so long to get your Ghost/mech army, resulting in painful to watch games. As you said, Tempests would not appear as comfortably because Protoss could not wildly tech to them solely backed by the threat of Immortals crushing too easily an attempt at a midgame timing. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On January 03 2014 02:08 Bagi wrote: Nobody used EMP for that purpose when it had larger radius. I'm not at all shocked that protoss players are against changes that could result in meaningful buffs for terran though. It was nerfed in the first place because EMP was doing too much damage against Protoss. Back at the old radius, a single EMP was often doing 1000+ damage at instant speed that could not be avoided, dodged, or really micro'd against at all. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44257 Posts
On January 03 2014 01:54 ffadicted wrote: ^ I agree with white wing. Things are crappy, but the terran teenage drama queen levels have gotten to ridiculous heights lately. Agreed, although it's been pretty bad ever since they stopped winning everything (back in the GomTvT days). On January 03 2014 01:45 ffadicted wrote: Can't really increase radius on EMP imo, a range increase big enough to be meaningful will mean a good terran can easily abuse range + radius to win every single feedback/EMP battle. IDK if I like that idea so much tbh. I don't think Ghosts are the problem, maybe their price, but not their effectiveness As a Protoss player, I wouldn't mind seeing Terran's EMP radius get a little larger as long as range is decreased. It would be nice to have the high templar (the slower, non-cloaked spellcaster) be able to get their first shots off on the ghost, rather than the way it's always been (ghosts getting first dibs on shooting off spells first, often immediately nullifying the high templar). The ghost resource cost is really not bad though. Maybe lowering the mineral cost a tiny bit and raising the gas cost would be better for Terrans, but it's currently not awful. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On January 03 2014 02:10 TheDwf wrote: Hardened Shields has no effect on Seeker Missile since it's a spell. And it's not just Hardened Shields indeed, it's Hardened Shields and the massive damage output of Immortals vs Armored targets. And still the units you mention are not the biggest problems mech faces. Thors are good against all three of them, for instance. Even unsieged Tanks are decent/good against ultras as long as you have enough of them. The sturdiness of Zealots/Archons is only problematic because behind them usually lies a line of units laying waste to all Armored units in a matter of seconds. Ultralisks are mostly problematic when Vipers are on the field, otherwise mech can handle them. Well, mech is based around the Tank, so of course the style will have troubles when its core unit is in difficulty. That's a bit tautological. As I said earlier, SC2 mech has flaws: Hellions/Hellbats are too unidimensional, Mines are sadly often too impractical to use because of their supply cost and the fact they're a second unit with a "transformation" time before shooting, Tanks don't deal enough damage (Siege in particular isn't rewarded enough in some scenarii; against some compositions, you're even punished for being sieged), Thors are a failure on several plans, Vikings in their ground form are kind of meh for their cost. But. Despite all those weaknesses, it could decently work if some of the adverse options are toned down. The problem is not that those options exist, it's how extreme some of them are. The Viper, for instance—was there any need to have Blinding Cloud entirely disable Tanks? For the Immortal, was it needed to have extreme resistance and extreme damage? Without even tweaking mech itself, I am convinced this change would do more than what Blizzard has done so far for mech TvP. Suddenly you could focus Immortals beyond the Zealots/Archon walls without instantly wasting 80-85% (!) of your damage potential. You could have a chance to fight without Ghosts or lots of Banshees, which means you would not be forced to turtle for so long to get your Ghost/mech army, resulting in painful to watch games. As you said, Tempests would not appear as comfortably because Protoss could not wildly tech to them solely backed by the threat of Immortals crushing too easily an attempt at a midgame timing. I will agree with your comments on blinding cloud, if it instead reduced the range of the unit by say, 6, to a minimum of 1, tanks wouldn't be entirely useless when sieged but would still be substantially hampered to make blinding cloud worth it. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
Can't really increase radius on EMP imo, a range increase big enough to be meaningful will mean a good terran can easily abuse range + radius to win every single feedback/EMP battle. IDK if I like that idea so much tbh. I don't think Ghosts are the problem, maybe their price, but not their effectiveness Thats just the point the Price plays a HUGE part into the effectiveness..... For Instance having a Zergling cost 200 minerals but kept the same stats would mean making lings would not be effective at all and zerg would suffer tremendously because of it.... The simple fact comes into Cost vses Utility of Trade.... it's hard to measure a utility of Trade with the situation of a ghost but! its not hard to see now that 200/100 is really not worth making something that can die to 50 Energy instantly..... when it takes 400/200 to instantly kill a Temp LOL That's if the Temp doesn't do the Juke move and just kill all 3 ghosts.... | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On January 03 2014 02:16 Pirfiktshon wrote: Thats just the point the Price plays a HUGE part into the effectiveness..... For Instance having a Zergling cost 200 minerals but kept the same stats would mean making lings would not be effective at all and zerg would suffer tremendously because of it.... The simple fact comes into Cost vses Utility of Trade.... it's hard to measure a utility of Trade with the situation of a ghost but! its not hard to see now that 200/100 is really not worth making something that can die to 50 Energy instantly..... when it takes 400/200 to instantly kill a Temp LOL That's if the Temp doesn't do the Juke move and just kill all 3 ghosts.... What? You can just snipe it twice from outside it's range: snipe has range 10, feedback has range 9, and the ghost is the faster of the two units. If you're losing these micro wars, it's user error on your part. | ||
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